Quoted: Quoted: Zero. However I didn't make the claim that HD was a more superior manufacture now did I? I usually don't give an opinion unless I have tried both products. Well...you kind of implied it, here: Quoted: If your even considering trading your softail off for a foreign job your not worthy to be on a Harley in the first place. Anyway, has the OP made up his mind yet?

I implied I own a BMW by recommending a HD over a BMW? I didnt bash the BMW in anyway because I have never owned one. I just prefer American made.

Quoted: Quoted: Zero. However I didn't make the claim that HD was a more superior manufacture now did I? I usually don't give an opinion unless I have tried both products. Well...you kind of implied it, here: Quoted: If your even considering trading your softail off for a foreign job your not worthy to be on a Harley in the first place. Anyway, has the OP made up his mind yet?

No, because Rosenrot hurt my feelings.  I'm currently hanging my head in shame, and considering giving up my commission in the Marines since I'm so un-American.

Doesn't make you un-American. I just don't understand why someone that has a HD is even considering buying anything else.

Why did you buy a Harley in the first place?

I love my Deuce

Quoted: I'm seriously considering trading this: i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/jdc28va/2004_Harley-Davidson_Softail_Deuce.jpg i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/jdc28va/deuce.jpg My 2004 Harley Davidson Softail Deuce (Upgraded Stage 1 with Vance and Hines Big Shot pipes), for a new or lightly used one of these: i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/jdc28va/BMW-R1200GS-2008.jpg i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/jdc28va/R1200GS.jpg I've had my bike for about 4 years, and have enjoyed it and been riding it more and more lately.  It's fun, but I think the R1200GS would be more practical, more fun, and better on my commute to work and on long rides.  I also think you get more bike for your money with a BMW, and like the added safety features of the newer R1200GS. I know it's a totally different bike to ride, so I'm planning on test riding one in the near future.  My girlfriend also enjoys riding the Deuce, and I'm not sure if the GS will be as comfortable for a passenger. For those who would say "get both", I really can't justify owning/paying insurance on both bikes and my truck. Thoughts? *ETA:  I also live in the DC area, and the R1200GS would make a much better BOV.

Quoted: I've had my bike for about 4 years, and have enjoyed it and been riding it more and more lately.  It's fun, but I think the R1200GS would be more practical, more fun, and better on my commute to work and on long rides.  I also think you get more bike for your money with a BMW, and like the added safety features of the newer R1200GS.

Here are some more thoughts and even some questions:

Why do you think the R120GS is more "practical"? I see that it has storage, but you can easily throw a set of bags on the Deuce for a little bit of nothing. If I remember right, you've got a Twin Cam 88, and that's a fantastic motor. It'll run for a looooong time. The seating position is low (which I prefer) and with the forward controls, I *personally* find them to be more comfortable on long rides.

You ought to get a good 300 miles out of a tank, so gas mileage shouldn't be much of a concern. The motor is solid mounted if I'm not mistaken, but TC88's are pretty well balanced. It won't be as smooth as the BMW, but it ain't bad, either.

No other bike has the aftermarket support that your Harley does. You may or may not care, but your options for tweaking the bike a bit are just about endless.

It does sit a bit low (I like mine to ride a bit higher), but then it's a cruiser. There's still plenty of lean angle, and it's more than enough to get your ass in plenty of trouble with the law on public roads. Even on mine, I'm waaaaaaay beyond what a sane person ought to be doing off of a track, and I'm not at it's limits yet. Any faster through the turns on public roads would be reckless, in my humble opinion.

Still, you are considering switching. So what don't you like about your ride?

Quoted: If your even considering trading your softail off for a foreign job your not worthy to be on a Harley in the first place.

yeah ... he's way too smart

Quoted: I implied I own a BMW by recommending a HD over a BMW? I didnt bash the BMW in anyway because I have never owned one. I just prefer American made.

No. You implied (it seemed that way, anyway) that the Harley was better when you questioned his motive behind buying "that foreign job". I could have read it wrong, but it seemed like you were saying the Harley was "better", somehow.

Anyway, no biggie.

Quoted: Quoted: I personally know two gentlemen with over 100k miles on the odometer on two older BMW bikes.  I personally ride a Crotch Rocket of Japanese heritage. Get the Bimmer....living close to Sturgis, I can tell you that 90% of the Harley riders I am watching right now are wanna-be bikers that trailer their bikes to the rally, and all of the locals (not to mention, real bikers) make fun of.  Nothing good going for H-D right now. Au contraire, mon frere! I'm no staunch supported of The Motor Company™, but they've just bought MV Agusta and Cagiva from the Castiglioni family. This will bring an impressive inrush of cash to the struggling Italian firms, and technology to the Milwaukee engineering effort. They got a hell of a lot of insight for the relatively paltry $180 million.

Well, as far as image goes.  I laud H-D business wise, but I see all of the _bags riding Hawgs, and laugh to myself.

Quoted: Doesn't make you un-American. I just don't understand why someone that has a HD is even considering buying anything else. Why did you buy a Harley in the first place?

Maybe he bought it because he liked it, but his wants or needs have changed now?

It's a motorcycle, not a club.  It's a tool for the function of transportation and for recreation.  It's not an organization that you owe your existence to.  It's a company selling a product, nothing more, nothing less.  If the OP wants to try something else, why even ask why?  It's not unusual to ride for a while, and come to the conclusion that what you have isn't what you want.  

Quoted: Quoted: I implied I own a BMW by recommending a HD over a BMW? I didnt bash the BMW in anyway because I have never owned one. I just prefer American made. No. You implied (it seemed that way, anyway) that the Harley was better when you questioned his motive behind buying "that foreign job". I could have read it wrong, but it seemed like you were saying the Harley was "better", somehow. Anyway, no biggie.

Somehow? Heh, that's a gentle way of saying it.

Quoted: I implied I own a BMW by recommending a HD over a BMW? I didnt bash the BMW in anyway because I have never owned one. I just prefer American made.

Your mental gymnastics belong in the Special Olympics. You implied that, not only is the Harley superior to a "foreign job", but that there's some sort of worth you must possess to own a Harley in the first place, which is fucking laughable.

Oh, also, maybe you could point out the post where I actually "bashed" Harleys? I said that the BWM is superior, but that's not really the same thing, now is it? Or maybe it is, in your head.

Own whatever you want, but don't be so delusional as to think that your choice has some sort of mystical properties that make it better than something that is technically superior.

I've never owned a Ford Tri-Motor. I've never owned an F-16. Nevertheless, I think I'm safe in stating that the F-16 is a superior product to the Ford Tri-Motor.

The Motor Company™ insists on building machines that are true to a legacy of 45° V-twins in a steel cradle frame. Period. And that's fine. They are building modern replicas of their own products from 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago. If that's the kind of motorcycle you want, The Motor Company will gladly sell you one, along with boots, pants, shirts, jackets, shades, do-rags, vests, and more chrome and rhinestones than Liberace's casket. I'm pretty sure that the only test of "worthiness" at the dealership is whether or not you've got the money.

However, even within The Motor Company's own largest market segment - heavyweight cruisers - the Japanese (Suzuki in particular) and even American (Victory) competition is building machines that benefit from the modern mindset of motorcycle design. In long-distance touring rigs, the Honda GoldWing and BMW K1200LT are (almost literally) a century ahead of the closest offering from The Motor Company.

As ga-ga as I am over the XR1200, it's mediocre at best when compared to what else is in  the liter-class naked sportbike arena. Non-adjustable front suspension on a sportbike? In 2008? Really? 3.5-gallon tank? Really?

Eric Buell did wonderful things with his RS and XB platforms, but even his brilliant mind cound not come up with a way to make a modern, world-class sportbike with an H-D power plant anymore. The 1125 is a fantastic machine - some say as perfect as a sportbike can get today.

If saving lives one decibel at a time whilst showing off your awesome flag-themed do-rag collection is your mission in life, then by all means, sidle up to the H-D bar. They're glad to see you coming.

That's a tough call.  The BMW GS is a pig of an offroad bike.  It's heavy, it doesn't corner well in the dirt, etc.  It would outshine the HD on gravel, bumps, potholes, the rain, and the like.  I wouldn't want to take either one in the dirt.  

But it's DC, you're probably going to split lanes and get out of town, right?  

I would prefer the BMW, especially if it's new.

If you were going to really bug out on a bike I think smaller is better.

I just saw a guy in DC a week or so ago who rode his GS to DC from LA.  That's a ride.

I bet you'll be happy with either one, though.

Quoted: The Motor Company™ insists on building machines that are true to a legacy of 45° V-twins in a steel cradle frame. Period. And that's fine. They are building modern replicas of their own products from 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago.

And thank God for that, because that's all I've ever wanted.

I like my motorcycle, because it's simple. It's a work of art. There isn't much to it, and that's a thing of beauty to me. I've got a Buell factory race engine in a softail frame, and while it's no sport bike (never will be), it's PLENTY fast enough on a public road. It handles the twisties just fine, and any faster would be downright reckless - on anything. It's reliable, and it gets me down the road with no fuss.

Other bikes are faster, and other bikes handle better. But mine is not slow, nor does it suffer from poor handling. At all. So thank God it exists, because it's everything I want, and nothing I don't.

And this is completely subjective, but if I'm going to drop a bunch of money on a bike, I like it to look cool. I will wholeheartedly admit that I like the look of Harleys, and I make no apologies for it. They are seriously cool looking, and I look good on one.

I don't own any Harley pants, jackets, gloves, do rags, helmets chains, wallets, etc, etc.

When I'm old, I'll probably buy a couch that says Honda on the side. Radio, heated grips, coffee maker, etc. But until then, I'm perfectly content touring on a lil 'ol softail, as long as I've got a comfy seat.


EDIT: And I need to have a comfy seat made.

You may just want a different bike and that's cool. If you think your commute will be better on the BMW, I'd like to know why? Saddle bags? Been addressed and they can be hard bags just as well. Wind shield? That can be done very easily. I think you'd be well served with either bike. Bug out of DC? Dude, you can't get here from there on anything unless you leave 2 days before the rest.

Quoted: And thank God for that, because that's all I've ever wanted.

To me, that's the essential beauty of Harley-Davidson motorcycles: the owner knows exactly what the motorcycle is. I would love to have a WLA, an XLCR, a new XR1200 ... not because any of those represent any particular technological hallmark, but because, well, they're fuckin' COOL! Each is a uniquely-American offering of a decidedly ham-fisted solution to some particular market demand. Other manufacturers have provided more elegant or technologically innovative responses to the motorcycle demand question in the past, to be sure. However, there is also elegance in the simplicity of a Harley-Davidson. Without a doubt, the marque carries more cachet than all other manufacturers combined, except for, say, H-R-D Vincent.

My 2004 BMW R1150RT is a pretty advanced machine, or at least it was 4 years ago. However, for pure motorcycling pleasure, I get a lot more smiles per mile (geez, that sounds ghey) out of my 1977 R75/7 - maybe 40 HP, single front disc, drum rear, carbs ... just a basic roadster. But, again elegant in its simplicity, it's a pure pleasure to ride and to wrench on.

I will certainly own at least one H-D motorcycle before to long. I am sure that I will enjoy every second I ride it, as well, because I will appreciate it for what it is. I won't make any sort of qualitative comparisons between it and anything else, because it will be its own thing. But, like you, I will buy the motorcycle, not the "lifestyle" or the "culture". I've got all the culture I need. Just look at the back of my refrigerator.

Quoted: But, like you, I will buy the motorcycle, not the "lifestyle" or the "culture". I've got all the culture I need. Just look at the back of my refrigerator.

There's something funny about Harley's that I've noticed, and it's not the owners - it's comments from people who don't own one. Whenever somebody brings up a Harley, the first thing people do is evaluate the owner to see if he's a "real biker". In the same conversation, they'll chide owners for being fake tough guys, and what have you. And if they are a "real biker", then they're scooter trash and knuckle draggers.

Well, what the hell?

It's just a bike, and a cool one at that. If I ride around on a Yamaha, it's just some guy on a motorcycle. As soon as I ride a Harley, it's "Pussy boy computer guy trucking his bike into Sturgis", or whatever. A guy can't win for losing. And it's not other Harley owners who do this crap, either.

If I wear jeans and a t-shirt on a Harley, I'm a dumb knucklehead (heh) weekend rider Jesse James wannabe who's going to get scraped up off the pavement.

If I wear HD leathers, I'm a suburbanite poser who's trying to look like a badass.

If I wear Joe Rocket gear and an Arai helmet, I'm riding an antiquated piece of shit, and I ought to get a real bike.

I mean, fuck.

Well damnit, I'm not a "biker". Never have been, never will be. I'm a "motorcycle enthusiast", and I just want to ride my junk in peace.

Quoted: You may just want a different bike and that's cool. If you think your commute will be better on the BMW, I'd like to know why? Saddle bags? Been addressed and they can be hard bags just as well. Wind shield? That can be done very easily. I think you'd be well served with either bike. Bug out of DC? Dude, you can't get here from there on anything unless you leave 2 days before the rest.

You can't change the clutch pull or shifting or brakes on an HD to match a BMW.  I like my friends soft tail standard just fine, I've probably put maybe 3k miles on his bike in the past 3 years.  Its comfortable its torquey and its pretty.  My BMW is a standard riding position which makes traffic navigating much easier, I can see through the windshields of pickups in front of me.  I can ride the clutch all day with straining my hand in the least.  I can up shift and downshift without any extra effort to make sure its *notched.  In heavy traffic, because of the telelever front suspension and linked brakes, there is little to no front end dive when some one decides to cut out in front of me or come to a rapid stop.  It starts right up immediately (has dual spark plugs for each cylinder), its fuel injected CANBUS motor can run off just about any 80+grade of fuel with out hesitation herking or jerking, and if there is a problem, BMW will send out a truck to come and get you with a phone call.  The biggest complaint I have of HD's is their clutch pull is atrocious.  

Do it!

Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't make you un-American. I just don't understand why someone that has a HD is even considering buying anything else. Why did you buy a Harley in the first place? Maybe he bought it because he liked it, but his wants or needs have changed now? It's a motorcycle, not a club.  It's a tool for the function of transportation and for recreation.  It's not an organization that you owe your existence to.  It's a company selling a product, nothing more, nothing less.  If the OP wants to try something else, why even ask why?  It's not unusual to ride for a while, and come to the conclusion that what you have isn't what you want.

I know guys who think like Rosenrot.  I went to a harley ralley a while ago where somebody tole me a story about threatening to beat somebody up because he put harley brand aftermarket parts on his kawasaki.  I had to clear out my eustachian canals and ask him again.

Then I just looked at him like he was an idiot and went somewhere else.  Some people just get nuts over harleys.

Shit, even Sonny said he wishes he would have started out the Hells Angels on BMWs.

Go ride a demo GS at the dealer.
Have them set the suspension up right for you, and go spend a couple of hours on it.

Mine's a red '06 HeatedTubeless spoked wheels
Factory Expandable Luggage and topcase

Quoted: Go ride a demo GS at the dealer. Have them set the suspension up right for you, and go spend a couple of hours on it. Mine's a red '06 Anti-lock brakes Heated grips Tubeless spoked wheels Factory Expandable Luggage and topcase

Just got back from a test ride at Morton's in Fredricksburg (ride down and back on I-95/ Route 1 was hell!)

The 2008 R1200GS is friggin SWEET.  They have a military special going on right now too, like $600 off.  Girlfriend likes it too (not sure if she likes it as much as the Deuce though).
 
I really appreciate everyone's insight, questions, and opinions, especially Subnet, Infallible, and DzlBenz (yes, even you, Rosenrot).  You all brought up very good things to consider.

This is going to be a tough but fun decision.

Quoted: Shit, even Sonny said he wishes he would have started out the Hells Angels on BMWs.

I don't doubt it. They ride ALOT. Most of the guys I ran into in California (I used to hang out at a couple of bike shops on the weekends) were either riding FXR's or Dyna's. The Hell's Angel on a rigid chopper is a myth, as far as I'm concerned. When you ride 30,000 miles or better a year, you want to be comfortable. I don't even remember seeing a lot of them on softails. Just a few, really.

I'm sure every chapter is different, but I'm not surprised to hear Sonny say that at all.

After all this... I'd say, get what you're COMFORTABLE with, and what MEETS YOUR NEEDS.


Hell, I bought a really big SCOOTER.  I wear a full face helmet and a Joe Rocket jacket when I ride it.  I don't give a FUCK what other people think about it.   It'll do 100MPH, gets 55-60MPG (so far), I have enough storage under the seat to stow my helmet and gear when I'm not on it... I love it.  It DOES WHAT I NEED IT TO.  

Someday, I'd love something in the Sport Cruiser class, but for now, I plan to enjoy the shit out of my SCOOTER.  

Quoted: Quoted: Shit, even Sonny said he wishes he would have started out the Hells Angels on BMWs. I don't doubt it. They ride ALOT. Most of the guys I ran into in California (I used to hang out at a couple of bike shops on the weekends) were either riding FXR's or Dyna's. The Hell's Angel on a rigid chopper is a myth, as far as I'm concerned. When you ride 30,000 miles or better a year, you want to be comfortable. I don't even remember seeing a lot of them on softails. Just a few, really. I'm sure every chapter is different, but I'm not surprised to hear Sonny say that at all.

They rode FXR's and Dyna's due to the rubber mount engine. Very smooth when rolling along. Shakes the bars at idle only. The other reason is they were the best handling HD's and the cheapest. You can't spend that much on your bike when you have no job. (Legal one that is).

For the GS riders, what is the ARFCOM of GS riders?  bmwgs.com?

Quoted: For the GS riders, what is the ARFCOM of GS riders?  bmwgs.com?

advrider.com

bmwmoa.org

ibmwr.org

Quoted: If your even considering trading your softail off for a foreign job your not worthy to be on a Harley in the first place.

Quoted: I just don't understand why someone that has a HD is even considering buying anything else.

Maybe it's just me me but... I never hear these sentiments, or get these kind of comments, from the riders of any other type of motorcycle.

I swear, it's like a religion.

Or a cult.  

I can't find a lightly used R1200GS around here at all.

Used H-Ds are a dime a dozen though.  Dealers are even putting leftover 2008s in classified listings to get rid of them.  Doesn't bode well for getting a good trade or resell price on my '04 Duece.

fwiw, my uncle has the r1200gs and loves it.

Quoted: fwiw, my uncle has the r1200gs and loves it.

I'll bet he does. I'd LOVE to have one. Beemer riders seem to put a LOT of miles on their bikes. Cause they're going further than from bar to bar...

Quoted: Maybe it's just me me but... I never hear these sentiments, or get these kind of comments, from the riders of any other type of motorcycle. I swear, it's like a religion. Or a cult.

It is. But, in a nice way.

If you are limited to a single bike, yes, I'd make the trade.  Otherwise, keep the HD and buy a cheaper adventure style bike.  KTM, Kawasaki, etc...

I've started looking for used R1200GS bikes in the area with the intent of keeping the Harley and getting a used GS versus selling the Harley and buying a new GS.

I found a 2005 R1200GS, 9,400 miles, with heated grips, ABS, BMW top and side cases, factory alarm, new tires, and it looks like it's in great shape (garage kept).  Doesn't have the spoked wheels.  Asking price is $13250, which seems high.  If I could get it down closer to $10,000, I think it would be a better deal.  KBB prices are $7980 trade-in, $11,210 retail.

Thoughts from the BMW owners?  I know the 2005 is similar to the 2008, with the '08 having added HP, and improved ABS without the servo assist.  Any other issues with the 2005?  Color is yellow; I prefer the blue but could do yellow, especially if I keep the Deuce which is blue.

Thanks guys.

JDC

Bump for the BMW GS experts.