Yessir. I'm glad to see South Hill back in the rotation, even if it a little longer drive for me...

What the heck is the guy doing with the AK?

This obsession everyone has with being tactical seems really cornball to me, it smacks of something with very limited practical value. Or negative value.

You guys ever watch Ultimate Fighting?

The kind of moves those guys do in actual antagonistic combat are completely different that what you'll see at the local YMCA Rex Kwon Do academy.

There was a world champion fencer who was challeneged to a duel.  Everyone was amazed at how shitty the guy did in the duel, was completely off balance, showed horrible form, made a lot of mistakes.

Turns out that 10 gallons of adrenaline and the spectre of sudden death has a way of throwing you off your game.

You think any of these fancy rex kwon do drills are taught to actual swat teams and anti-terrorist teams?   Somehow I doubt it.

I think it's three separate issues: tactical/fancy vs simple, practical vs useless, and safe vs unsafe.

IMHO, it doesn't matter whether something is fancy or simple, and while I prefer practical training, I have no problem with anyone doing useless tactical training as long as its safe.

The reason some of the weird gun shit shouldn't be taught is because it's dangerous, not because it's weird or useless.

There's people who think it's ridiculous for average people to learn to clear a house, work in a team, retain weapons, shoot barricaded, supine, fight out of and around a disabled vehicle etc. just because it's tacticool. Just because it doesn't fit their idea of "practical". Who cares what they think? As long as the training is safe, it doesn't matter if it's not "useful".

I'm not defending Sonny or ADE, I'm just saying that tacticool isn't the problem, unsafe is.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go practice my Travis Haley pirouettes.

In Soviet Russia, instructor shoots YOU.

I understand that there is a certain level of showmanship present in the whole "tactical death monkey weapons class" thing, but as long as everyone, and I mean EVERRRRRYONNNNE, plays by strict safety and weapons handling rules, it should be all good. It's when people get the idea that they're "tool cool for school" that you see shit like this.

I don't even know what to say about those pictures of the "dual wielding AK blossom of death," other than it's some of the most retarded fucking shit I have ever seen.

I wouldn't stay for the rest of a class after the instructor shot somebody in a fit of utter stupidity, no matter who was teaching it. That would be even retardeder than "dual wielding AK death blossoms."

Well, at least the students got a medical demonstration out of it.

I would imagine that you are wrong about that. I would imagine he will be back running courses fairly soon and the classes will probably well attended.

In Russia, grammar no matter  

Ya mean like the dozen students who showed up the very next weekend to train with him in the snow and wind?

I don't think it will affect his business either. There will still be people paying to get "SPETZNAZ" training.

I would still train with him.

Can't understand why people are being harsh.

None of my stuff covers my stomach or my arms.

Or their knowledge about the events of the prior weekend. Or, his refund policy vis a vis last minute drop-outs. Or, their ability to get refunds on any airplane tickets and hotel reservations they had made to attend the class. They may have been put in a position where it would have cost them enough to drop out that it was worth it to go ahead and take the class, knowing to be especially mindful of where he was at all times, lest he shoot someone else while doing something irresponsible.

All students were aware of the previous weekend and told they were welcome to drop out and receive a refund. Zero takers.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDtkSDi9Ibk

Watch at 5:15 where he encourages people to put their finger inside the trigger guard before they're ready to fire.

Now this yahoo had his trigger finger working faster than his brain could discriminate targets, and someone got shot in a training environment over it... 3 times!

This guy has had red flags going off for years.

You wouldn't catch me on the range with this clown in armor or not.

I can actually imagine that it might drum up business among certain Walter Mitty types looking for an illicit thrill. "This training class was so high-speed, the instructor actually SHOT someone at the last class!"

Just getting ready to air on Fox News "A gunrange that allows you to shoot people" "Owner up next to defend his business"

This should be rich.

Damnit! Its about someplace in Fla that offers sims... Oh well.

Damn you guys are a bunch of douchenozzles. Sonny is an excellent instructor and very professional. He's launched more bullets than most of you will if you lived two lifetimes. He received excellent training and has been in combat. I'd go back to his class any day before i'd go to any other instructors. The Spetsnaz train for many hours with their finger inside the trigger guard but not on the trigger. They start out with an empty rifle and work up to using a loaded rifle and then receive very powerful kicks and punches.

I can't wait until one of the instructors like Haley who you're all gay for has an accident so i can rag on him. Truth is he probably has already had an accident or two and it was covered up so he wouldn't  lose money. Sonny is the real deal and if you want to learn how to operate an AK theway it supposed to be and without all that AR crap on it then Sonny is the man. All of the other instructors talked shit about the AK for years until they saw there was money to be made and now they're all experts, yeah right. You guys are a bunch of girlie men.

After seeing how Sonny advocates putting his finger inside the trigger guard to "speed up"... I'm reminded of some wise advice from Paul Howe.

http://combatshootingandtactics.com/published/tactical_shooting_thoughts.pdf

Sooner or later most instructors will have a ND just because of the exposure of daily firearms use. In most cases it will be a harmless event. Not so here; therefore, make use of it for your own safety.

Learn from other's mistakes, not your own.

Same question here.  WTF does that prove or train exactly.  I guess we know the potential side effects.

Why would you train with someone who has "accidents" and covers it up. I don't want to end up being one of his "accidents"

me too ... and when people ask why I tell them that when I deploy thats what I'll be wearing...but this is another reason

PID doesnt mean pelvic inflamatory disease

it actually does but not in this case

Go back to page 6.  Or if you are too lazy to do that, then just read this (which I copied from page 6 for you).  


"Shawn.L

Ft. Harmar Home Defense Course 09/26 Grant Timberlake

For those that dont know me on here a little background:
Ive attended courses in Pistol, Carbine, Edged weapons, Retention and Disarms, Tactics, comabtives, ect ect ect from a diverse list of instructors including but not limited to Peter Georgiades, Giles Stock, Randy Cain, Ken Hackathorn, George Mathis, Red Zone Solutions, and Tony Ferrazoli. I currently hold a NRA Pistol Instructor certification and have assisted instructing for the FIRE Inst. One Day handgun Clinic and done new shooter orientations at club events. I shoot both USPSA and IDPA but am not currently a member of either orginization.

I was invited to this class by Grant and welcomed the offer. This was to be the first class of this sort he was offering and I was interested to see what TTP's he was going to instruct and to check out the new Ft Harmar shoot house. I figured for one day and a nominal $50 fee (I belive his intended price for these classes once they go public is $150-175) it was well worth the short 2.5 hour drive.

I met Grant and the other students (12 in total) and the predesignated meeting point, BS'd a bit, Grant handed us off maps to reach the range as it was hidden way way back in the middel of nowhere and we caravaned off down some windy and dusty "roads" to the club.

When we arrived at the range and got out of our cars Grant instructed us to "Get out our Kit" and go over to the table.
Guys where uncasing guns, pulling guns from holsters, loading, unloading. Immediately I was uncomfortable. One student took a pistol out, sprayed it down with lube and started to swing it in the air to shake some of the lube out. I went around to the far end to put as many bodies between me and all the muzzles as I could and fully expected the intructor to quickly regulate the situation. Not only did that not happen, but the entire day was a field day in poor gun handling and lack of safety protocol.

I am used to the first thing an instructor does on the range is instruct his student on how they are to behave on the range, what safety protocol is to be followed, and what the range rules are as well as what the consequesnces for breaking those rules are.

The safety protocol consited of being told to keep our fingers out of the trigger guard. Throughout the day during both the flat range and house segments many of the students couldnt even do that.

We started with some basic "see where you are" type drills. "The Test", 5-5-5, some slow fire stuff, SHO, and WHO flat range shooting paper. I saw not only student who didnt have in a basic level of marksmanship skills but some downright scary holster work and questionable gear choices. I have to wonder how this list of invitees was formulated. It came up later that some of these guys only exposure to the subject of the defensive use of arms was attending some free group "study sessions". While that may be a nice way to introduce new shooters to the subject, and a great way to spread a little knowledge it does not make one ready to enter a live fire shoot house.

In fact even attending well recognized courses doesnt make one ready. Most people can survive a 2 or 3 day course and not do anthing stupid enough to get kicked out, get a certificate, write up an "AAR" and learn nothing, practice nothing, and be no better off that had they just bought another gun with the money. You cant buy competence, even by paying for classes. It takes time and effort, and theres just no other way around it.

Grants assistant was a Sgt. Watson. Throughout the day I saw him pull his gun partly or fully from the holster, fiddle with it, and put it back away. At one point on break he came close (or did, I couldnt tell from my point of view) sweep the head of another student who was kneeling next to him getting some items from his bag.

After the square range drills we where heading over to the shoot house with Grant for some instruction. On the way over we where told to clear our guns. On the way over. Again, at any class Ive ever attended there is a protocol for this. Students should be told to line up facing the berm, make clear, and check each others guns. Instead again everone milled around the table unloading, drawing, sweeping one another, laying guns down, putting them in bags, ect.

I should have just left. In all honesty I feel like an idiot for staying. I have a wife and child at home and theres nothing any instructor can teach me thats worth me taking a bullet. But I did not, I stayed.

We went to the shoot house and Grant gave us some instruction using a blue gun. This part of the course was very well done. His instruction was clear, he explained how he wanted us to treat doors, about pieing corners, using cover/concealment and some basic tactics. Again he mentioned about fingers in trigger guards and then that there would be people above you on the catwalk so dont sweep them while reloading.

Our groups where split into 2 and mine was the first to the house. We where originally told we would do dry runs with blue guns first. Grant asked who wanted firsts and I jumped on it. I picked up a blue gun and he told me "No, lets just go live." Now, Im fine with that for me. Ive done this stuff before. But Grant doesnt know me, hes seen me shoot maybe 50 rounds, and even from what I saw not behind the line some of these guys gun handling is suspect at best.

The house was a simple set up. I didnt expect much more for a intro course. Basic shoot/no shoot and hostage targets. I went about clearing the house. Twice I had to ask Grant to move so he wouldnt needlessly be downrange of me. Once he was down the end of the hall I hadnt cleared yet on the other side of a door I was about to work, and once as I exited a room. To be clear I could have easily not swept him, but I could easily not sweep him standing next to a target Im shooting too, that doesnt mean its the best place for him to. I essentially felt like he was just wandering around the house while I cleared it and when i would exit a room he would be in the hall somewhere.

After my run he tried to "instruct" me to use a compressed high ready........ I gotta wonder why he wants me to sweep everything in my path if hes going to be wandering around in front of me. He also tried to tell me I should ahve taken more shots on a hostage target when my one shot put a 45 calliber hole right through the BG's eye socket.

he instructed in the house that "Only good hits count." Fair enough, and I agree completely, but he then went on to instruct the student that if theey see bad hits they should "keep shooting until the get good solid hits, it may take 15 hits on a target." To me this sounds like instructing students to look over there gun at the targets and walk in rounds, forget about the fact that in real life youll never see hits so training to look for them is a bad habit at best and negligent at worst. I was not suprised to see the majority of students shoot low and often.

After my run I went to the catwalk to watch. You know..... I felt safer up there........
One student when going through a doorway went into a full Sabrina and muzzled the shit out of us. The couple of us up there yelled MUZZLE MUZZLE and he brought it down. After Grant commented "Thanks for catching that, I couldnt see him from where I was at." Beacuse he in the hall busy taking video instead of instructing. The video of in the shoot house posted online is the instructor videoing, as well as many of the not from above pictures. In my opinion an instructor in this enviroment needs to be able to comepletly focus on his one student, esp taking care of safe gun handling with total new guys, and work with them.

On the one video you can see a student do a reload in a doorway pointing the gun right at the cameraman/instructor/Grant and once the reload is done he comments calmly "watch your muzzle".

The attitude seems to be this is "no big deal" and "we play by the big boy rules" "people get swept". Well, this aint my first rodeo, Ive done shoot houses before, Ive done partner work before, ive done live fire simulators where role players grab you and you work and move in a 360 degree world and NO ONE GETS SWEPT. why? because the first thing we did was learn how to do that, and because our instructors where on top of the class at all times doing there best to not only look out for everyones safety but paying more attention to the students and if they are learning than to themselves.

Im not sure that anyone got out of that clas without being swept, wether they know it or not.

The day fnished out with more flat range stuff as the other students ran the house. We shot on the move, around barricades, and did drills like the compass and figure 8. Many of the atrgets where shot up, not all pasted.

At the end Grant told us all how he is a student of Ken and Larry and how hes going to submit all our names so hopefully we will get invited to a HD course with one of them, and how this class was to prepare us for that experiance. Sales pitch much?
Im not sure after my review here Im getting invited to anything.
But I had to tell the truth. I was speaking to a friend after the class and I mentioned to him "Ever wonder about how much bad instruction, and unsafe stuff we never hear about?"

Again, go look on page 6 if you want to challenge the report or argue with its author.  The lack of safety described is consistent with the facts of the negligent shooting that this thread is about.


My take on this thread?  The instructors were ignoring safety rules and replacing them with their lame idea of "big boy rules"  (WTF is that supposed to be anyway?  F...ing stupidity is what it is).  Their lack of safety protocols is obvious not only from the first accidental shot into the victim, but the second shot, then the third.  If that's not enought, re-read the above (from a student who attanded a prior training under their "course safety rules" - or lack thereof).

Since both of these facts have come to light, the range owner and the instructors involved are arguing: "Oh well; accidents happen in training all the time.  And we get to do "fun" stuff that other ranges prohibit (on the basis of safety rules, BTW)."  What they have NOT done is say, in any form, "we made mistakes."  

You still want to train there?  Seriously?

Wait - you can't wait for another gun accident?  You sound like someone from the Brady Campaign. Your statements clearly indicate you are the douchenozzle.

I don't know why Grant keeps coming up, other than the fact that people here seem to have a bone to pick with him...

Say what you will about what happened that day, and I certainly have my share of concerns regarding that days events, but the mistakes made that day were different than what is the root of the problem with Sonny's mistake(s).

Not owning every round you fire,
not discriminating targets,
not being sure of your target and whats around and behind it,
not getting a sight picture for every shot fired.

This isn't sweeping people with loaded guns, as the Ft. Harmar event was concerned with... this is the instructor doing the equivalent of "shooting at noise".  A 16 year old who took hunter safety knows not to do that shit.

I make it a habit not to enter a 360 degree live shooting environment unless it's with someone who's made a living doing it at the varsity level, and I'm personally comfortable with the safety protocols in place.  No matter what an instructors training, I'm not standing on a catwalk above dudes running around with loaded guns...  I'll watch the camera footage when the run is over and we dump it on a computer... no matter the instructor.  People have brain farts and I'm not interested in forgoing a backstop between myself and their muzzle, even in a training environment, no matter the instructor.

What Sonny did is FAR worse than anything that happened at Ft Harmar that day.  To me, it looks like the only reason people want to link these two events together is to dogpile on Grant because of previous politics and forum wars.

If people just want to talk about unsafe behavior exhibited by instructors, then there are a lot of notorious screw-up's missing from this thread from outfits from Suarez,  Tactical Response, Ayoob, Pincus, and a shitload of other outfits taking money in exchange for shooting instruction.  To me the harping on Ft. Harmar looks like little more than a pot shot at Grant.

You are out of your depth. Take your bullshit to your own thread. You should start your own Sonny thread, hell, include a poll to see who the duechenozzle is

You don't have the slightest clue how much aimed fire has been done by shooters in this thread. I'm sure you are right about one thing though, he has definitely launched more rounds at his AI's than I have. I don't launch rounds, I place them where I am aiming, at things that I can fucking see.

At what?  Death Blossoms and AI capping?



How do you know?



How do you know?



How do you know?



How do you know?



Sonny owes a huge debt to Paul Gomez (RIP) with regards to AK instruction here in the US.



Whatever you say super Spitsnaz Warrior Ninja boy.

Epic fucking Clownshoes

I'm quite familiar with his conduct in that thread...

He screwed up, he eventually owned it, and he has learned from it.  

Hopefully the lesson learned by the public is to NOT take shoothouse training from people who haven't done it from the varsity level, regardless of their instructional pedigree.  I'm sure lots of people out there have a lot to share on the topic, but there is little reason to use live ammo in the practicing/ instruction of it.

I took a non-ballistic class with SouthNarc (AMIS), and I didn't feel shorted in anyway because we used airsoft and not live rounds.  In fact, it permitted the student to experience an opposing will, and forced them to exhibit more noise discipline and proper use of cover/ concealment.  If you telegraphed your position via noise, backlighting, or sticking your gun into space you haven't cleared yet, your opponent maneuvered on you and starting shooting at you... you didn't get told "the target probably saw you that time".

The fact that it was Grant in the above example is of little importance.  Lots of other "instructors" out there get carried away with things they don't completely understand.  Grant isn't the only one who's made mistakes like these.  This is why I feel like the lesson learned needs to be on the students behalf at large, not one single instructors behalf.  Other people in leadership positions will continue to get in over their heads from time to time... that's why students need to take responsibility for their own safety.

DON'T GO INTO LIVE FIRE SHOOT HOUSES WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T MAKE A LIVING AT IT.

With thousands of military veterans who cleared houses as an 0311/11B overseas coming home and hanging out shingles... these events will only happen more and more.  That's why the student needs to think long and hard about who they sign up with.  

Black listing one or two instructors is of limited value.  Developing a mental checklist before you sign up to do this shit is a much more useful lesson learned.

this isn't going to go the way you think its going to go in this thread.

link?





 

This wasn't an accident. This was fucking insane. He was going to go through and shoot all the targets (which he knew the location of) in such a fast manner you guys would marvel at how fast he is.

He couldn't be bothered to use a weapon light or his brain. This wasn't an oops my bad: he intentionally put the safety of others at risk.


One would think if the good comrade was such [comblocaccent]Premium Spetznatz Fighter[/comblocaccent] he would verified his target and the back ground.

- He sure as hell has shot more classmembers than anyone else I know.

When I was in the army, when somebody would shoot somebody else in training––-oh wait that never happened because I was in the US Army and the guys I served with weren't fucking retarded.

 

Myself and d90king run FT&T, where that thread took place.  We exchanged numerous posts, emails, PM's and phone calls with all parties involved.

There is no link because we dumped the thread, as d90king explained earlier.

Grant owned up to his mistakes (I don't remember if it was via email, forum post, PM, or phone), he's since taken a shitload more training on those topics, and everyone learned from it.  The OP and he are on good terms, and it's in the past now.

As I said, the lesson to learn here is how to think critically about who you're enlisting as an instructor, and what their area of expertise is (and isn't), and make wise decisions regarding your training dollars and safety.

Hammering one single instructor about one incident that they've long since learned from isn't on my to-do list these days.

You mad, broski? Difficult to see people disparage the object of your affection when he's clearly stepped on his dick and proven over the years that he frequently acts in a manner that a reasonable person would deem unnecessarily unsafe?

I didn't know that he held a course the next weekend...but I am not surprised that people showed up.