No you

We had a vendor come out to demo some suppressors for my Dept last summer

I ran about a hundred rounds through a MP7 in full auto.

Easy to control, excellent weapon.

It would not take much to get really good with that setup.

It works because they're generally shorter than a 5.56 rifle. Easier to fit in cockpits, tanks and other vehicles. Although tanks are big enough and typically have a carbine.

Dutch F-16 pilots carry B&T MP9s because their carbines were not small enough.

Germans used to issue the Uzi for tank crews which I believe the MP7 replaced.

Most "pogues" don't work in an office. They're crawling around in vehicles all day. Their rifles usually get left there as they get in an out to do various things. Even then, they're rocking a lot more firepower than an infantryman, because MGs are everywhere. My 12 man MLRS platoon had three M240s. The problem is that they still have M16s and M203s that they generally don't carry on them as they are doing maintenance, loading, etc. The rifles get left in the vehicle unless someone is actively pulling security.

I would have killed for a Colt 654 at any point of my military service.

I completely disagree.

There is still a role for them.



It's really hard to articulate to people who haven't had hands on how compact these weapons are. Particularly when compared to even the smallest ARs.

I absolutely love my Rattler, but it's still a CHONK compared to an MP7.

I don't have the picture on me, but I've carried an MP7 in the most nonchalant of bags, super small hipster photography backpacks. That was with a light, red dot, can, and like 5 backup mags.

And it's not just in the length or height, but the width as well.

@BabaYaga777 What mount is that SRO on?

People have addressed your points, but it seems your thinking is stuck 35 years in the past?  It's not the 80s anymore and that Red Dawn scenario is just as unfounded now as it was then.  Leave that scenario to a high school football team.  Also, your mindset of a "pogue" seems like that out of a Nam movie.  Plenty of pogues wave at the infantry stuck guarding the FOB as they roll, stroll, or rotary beyond the Hescos.  Training?  Mixed bag, but all get some sort of combat skills training(s) before deployment dependent on deployment location and position.  My last deployment consisted of 6 different courses totalling 5 months time -- for a 3 month deployment.  

You're not going to see them with Mp7s because they didn't have access to them.  What's your concept of "everyday pogue life"?  For those that aren't forward of everyone else; consider an actual scenario like an offended ANA Colonel pilot entering a meeting room and killing 9 US mil or 4 Taliban sneaking onto a FOB past the infantry guards, shooting US mil and blowing up aircraft to be gunned down by some random Air Force mechanics that had to go fetch their rifles.  It's the weapon you have ready on you that matters most.

Also, no one is leaning a rifle in the corner of a field kitchen with indigenous mil, locals, and contractors amok.  Sgt Snuffy is getting an Article 15 for failure to keep control of their weapon.

I also feel like a real subgun PDW like a mp5k is still a useful tool. The semi auto versions not so much. For semi, a mk18 or the new sig/bufferless 5.56 will be a better bet

HKIA!!!!!

When the need was identified at the dawn of mass mechanized armies the choices were narrow to non existent.

The M1 Carbine was summoned into being and actually leap frogged the whole concept by proving to be the way ahead in Infantry primary weapons.

A lot of people are begging the OP's question by insisting how great they are for building clearing and CQB. That may be but that's not

what maintenance, medics and drivers use them for.

Personally, I think with the knowledge of modern pistolcraft, wound ballistics and training improvement the pistol is the really practical Personal Defense weapon.

With optics and a high capacity modular 9mm, shooting a high penetration bullet, a moderately trained troop has at least a chance at defending himself

until he can get on the 240 or the M4, vice a guy 40 years ago with a revolver or a 7 shot auto.

Nowadays we know to burn the enemy down with a rapid fire stream of fairly well aimed rounds, as opposed to the old Bullseye style training of yore.

This wouldn't take Tier 1 level skill, just improvements in the training and mindset of instructors.

The MP7 would serve a role at my house.  It would replace viagra as a way to keep me hard

It is kind of dumb, when you consider that it never gets implemeted the way it's supposed to. All the small handy weapons get handed out to the frontiline troops, and then everyone in the rear is lugging around A2 muskets. Yeah, you'll have a smattering of pistols in the mix, but the vast majority of the base pop always seemed to be lugging the older weapons systems.

I have NO idea how you guessed the location?  

Pretty funny on your A2 musket comment as it's true and I've said the same many times.  And all those unfortunates with worthless UDMs didn't get a sidearm so they have to lug around the musket 24/7 - eat, shit, whatever.   Probably wait in line to suck a dick in a blowjob bunker for an mp7.

The picture of the Captain with the MP7 was taken in front of the HKIA terminal. Terminal is on the right from the camera's perspective. Behind him is the baggage holding racks and nasty bathrooms. to the left was a little coffe shop and a decent restaruant

LOL, 100% correct.  I wouldn't have guessed that on the pic's limited perspective had I not been the Capt in the pic.  Circa 2011.  KIA, no H yet.  I remember some good halal chicken pad Thai there.  All gone now.

I don't think the concept of a compact weapon for personal defense bigger than a pistol is dumb, really.  I mean there are more convenient weapons than a 13" AR too, such as a British L22 bullpup or an HK53.  A rifle cartridge is important to get through the soft armor.  Getting through the hard armor is less concerning because it's such a small percentage of coverage.

Excellent use of a railroad spike

At the time the PDW concept was first seeing fielded examples, most of the non-NATO forces we'd expect to come into contact with, to include Russians, didn't roll with high-end body armor (versus flak jackets and such)...and even NATO wore mostly PASGT-era armor.

The high-velocity rounds of the PDW would have been serviceable enough, even after more modern armor started appearing (and, note, most of the OEF/OIF/GWTO opponents were very light on any body armor).

The idea was to replace unwieldy full-length M16s, for support troops, with more easily-carried weapons that could suppress/fend off light enemy forces.


It was, in that role, more or less overtaken by event.  Most everyone transitioned to a carbine platform, splitting the difference, and the lack of a Service-level buy-in kept the PDW price-per-unit high enough to make sure only cops/security and SOF were really interested.

Hey!  I'm a poor, leave me alone!  I'm making due best I can!

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All 3 of these serve in a “pdw” role for me. The Sig, having a dot, makes it shoot well and accurately for me while being unobstrusive to carry on my day to day.

The flux Glock carries about as well as a normal full sized pistol but the brace adds stability And dot helps both speed and distance.

The tavor is a “real” caliber and still 26” long. Heavier than the others by a good bit but fits places other stuff doesn’t.

Currently debating a rattler to replace it. My life has similar needs to those described by maybe needing a pdw. It’s unlikely I need one, but on the chance I do I need it now snd it needs to get stuff done.

Nobody is commenting on the issue of budget/training/logistics because it’s no secret the military is basically a shit sandwhich when it comes to hose things, no matter what the issue is

An MP5K is still fucking huge. At that point, get a 10.5" M16 and have compatibility with everyone else.

Kharn

This is GD. You know no one reads your post they just reply with their emotional reaction to your thread title.

With the adoption of the M17 it would be really cool if they could design something that took the same mags, was almost as small and portable, but also allowed multiple points of contact when employed.  Something that carried (more) like a handgun but shot (more) like a long gun.  As to armor, train mozambique drills modified two to the pelvic girdle one to the head.  With a dot and a brace head shots would not be as silly as that initially sounds for non gunfighters.  

The vast majority of people in the military will never fire a weapon in anger. Effectiveness would probably only go up if most of these people were never given a rifle. But goddamn would it be weird and uncomfortable if they didn't have a weapon. This is what the PDW is meant for. Something that is as powerful as possible while not getting in the way anymore than is strictly needed.

There is always going to be a relationship between size and effectiveness. The shape of this line is going to change depending on technology and situation. Trying to make hits on a guy half a mile away and someone across the room will have very different curves. A 2lb pistol at 800 yards will have an effectiveness of 0, a 6lb AR maybe a 5 and a 12lb bolt gun a 7.  

Across the room a 2lb pistol might be a 4 and a 6lb carbine a 10. But would a 3lb pdw be an 8? That's what is trying to be optimized. Every job is going to have a different optimum. Due to logistics there is always going to be a drive to make a one size solution. This is best shown on the bad end with the M14 as an SMG replacement. The m4 is on the good size of this.

Here is where the PDW concept starts to divide into two, the pistol replacement and the carbine replacement.

On the one hand you want something that's bigger than a pistol for your cook. If your cook is slotting floppies is likely going to be in a reactive capacity as your base is being overrun. This is the use case for a light pdw like the mp7.

Then towards the heavy end you have things like the knights pdw in 6x35. This is scaled more for your mortar carrier. His primary casualty producer isn't his rifle so If you make his rifle lighter he can carry more mortars. But it would be weird and make everyone uncomfortable if he didn't have a rifle so you have to give him something and a pistol would probably be useless and still weigh 2lbs. A 4lb pdw won't be useless and weigh less than a 7lb carbine allowing an extra 3lbs of boom.  

The Army and Air Force recently adopted the S&B APC9K as a dedicated sub machine gun. This would be ideal for the roll that is being discussed here. It’s small, lightweight, easily accurate out to 100 yards, and you can make it take the new Sig pistol mags. However the military will only use it in a limited roll for special purposes.

The simple fact of the matter is the military doesn’t actually trust most of its folks with weapons. There are plenty of times I was in Afghanistan or Iraq and you had base troops carrying around empty weapons. When you have a legitimate threat of insider attacks, the main concern was still troops being morons and playing fuck fuck games with their weapons.

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PDW have a place in my stable.

@rb889, NATO Standardizes FN's 5.7x28mm Caliber.

They should quit fucking around

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Pretty sure JAG said flamethrowers are a no-go these days.  

And only 30 years after it was intended to be used by NATO forces, now let me tell you, that round is going places.

Seriously, it is good news for the round though, and the round really needs some given how niche it’s become, and how expensive it’s become the last year or two. It’s the best news since the Ruger 5.7 at least. I have an SBR’d PS90 and Five-Seven so I’d love to see it be more mainstream.

Fuck that it’s 2021 chop a few more inches off and get a Sig Raptor. Now you’re really barking flames.

While not ideal as originally conceived, they would make for very suitable home defense weapons. Small, lightweight, low recoil, less blast than a rifle cartridge. I think the whole concept makes more sense from a civilian point of view.

M1 Carbine invented by a moonshiner while he was in prison.
Model prisoner though.
Good movie too btw.

@glockfan68 It's made by M8 Industries. It's solid

Now that’s new, glad to see the 5.7 getting more attention. Surprised I didn’t hear about this back in March.

Lol, but 18 years after the original testing back in 2002-2003. What’s the bureaucratic phrase for “better late than never?”

Fuck yeah, I’d love to get my hands on a Raptor and a few mags of their new 6.8x51, see what kinda shit I can set on fire with that sucker. Really like to see some ballistics data and testing, too.

Also agree with whats-his-face in the Spear thread, they should’ve called the PDW variant the Gladius.

I have a PS90 and like it a lot but it is more a SMG than a PDW. A PDW should be nearly as maneuverable as a pistol and have some of the advantages of a rifle (ap). The MP7 fits the bill. It can be holstered and out of the way for the majority of tasks and then be fired more effectively than a pistol.

A P90 doesn’t fit this bill, it is basically similar to a slung rifle. A PDW should be more similar to a pistol than a smg or rifle.

Think about it this way, if I have a P90 (or other PDW like M1 carbine, etc) and am a motor t mechanic, I am going to set the P90 down when recovering a vehicle from a ditch. If i have an MP7 in a leg holster, I’m going to keep it with me similar to a pistol.

LOL at anyone that thinks they are gonna be doing work details, crawling around vehicles etc with this.

My got can you see trying to get out of  burning tank with it on?

Clearly it would suck to get out of a burning tank in THOSE SHORTS. And who tucks in their shirt like that, and what that brown leather belt with Navu Blue shorts and a Salmon shirt?

Well, I just reread your post, and technically you dont talk about leadership.

I would say that its apples and oranges, lemons and pears.

Issue #1.  Rear echelon units prior to the BCT concept had logisticians in Forward support battalions and Main support battalions in DISCOM and their tactical skills were very very weak.  I saw lots of DISCOM soldiers get ambushed at JRTC and M1 carbine/M4 carbine M16A2 made no difference.  They could all have qualified expert and their collective react to ambush drills were really poor.  

Issue #2.  There are some people whose job it is to carry heavy gear in infantry battalions and shoot a little, like MG asst gunners, 11Cs, RTOs, TOW gunners, and M9s didnt cut it. An extra 100 rounds of .30 or an extra 60mm or radio battery does more to positively influence foreign policy than a carbine vs garand.  A carbine was better, and lighter.  Although to be fair it didn't matter all that much, outside of Audie Murphy there weren't a lot of distinguished carbine shooters. Its not a bad concept, but it wasn't so great that we needed six million of them.  In my mind the problem with the M1 carbine as PDW is the Thompson.  If we had a 7-8 pound SMG like the sten, PPSH41, or MP40, then we should have fielded that to SLs and anyone else and in a practical sense that was just fine as a defensive weapon out to 100meters.  SLs in other armies carried PDWs and called them submachine guns.

Issue#3.  Your premise is flawed in that you say that if the Russians fought rear area battle, then I guess you're sawing logisticians needed more training.  We could have a long discussion about Soviet deep battle, Gluboky boi.  If you look at Soviet Deep Battle in WWII, US airborne operations in Western Europe, and while we're at it, the conduct of the US Army in the Battle of the Bulge, one would come to the conclusions that when push comes to shove rear area troops in any army are zero value added, especially against enemy airborne troops, the best antidote for airborne operations are clearly mobile armored or armored cavalry reserves, and combat arms units armed with carbines, such as US Combat engineers, did fight effectively if pressed, but most of their firepower came from machine guns in the defense, and PDW vice battle rifle didn't mean much.

I'm pretty nerdy on the history of airborne operations and I cant think of a single instance where any logistics unit outfought an airborne formation, no matter how well armed, except for maybe a few episodes on Crete, when the fallschirmjager were packing pistols and running around looking for weapons containers.

Crete might be the laboratory for the PDW concept.

The Fallschirmjager got handled roughly on Crete. As Elite troops, how did they do armed with pistols?

I just finished a Gun Jesus video claiming the opposite, that the light rifle program was designed as a replacement for those previously armed with the m1911 as a main weapon.  That would generally NOT be frontline troops, statistically.

No, it was intended to be a PDW for troops who's primary function is doing something that wasn't infantry. It was designed to specifically replace the 1911.

I don’t think anyone believed that rear echelon formations would hold off Soviet or Warsaw Pact combat formations with their PDWs but the PDW would give them more of a chance to extract themselves, while providing time for the actual NATO combat formations to counter attack.

You do it the same way they do now with an IBA and pistol.  Except that they have a more usable weapon once off the track trying to rally. In thr 1980s, they would be grabbing clapped out grease guns and the loaders 240.

Reading this thread makes me think you have a lack of understanding what those outside of line units do in support of the combat arms. Right now the water purification team, chemical decon or even mechanics are walking around with 20 inch muskets and a single magazine. Not because they eschew self defense, but because it’s a impediment to maximum efficacy in their primary task.

I'll take an SBR'ed, suppressed AR.  Manual of arms, reliability, lethality.

Whether PDWs are dumb or not, I'll never forgive Magpul for abandoning the PDR.

What you need is a .270 Win Mag in an MP5 package with magic recoil reduction and optics never seen before on small arms, and maybe a magical barrel to deal with the other issues.

If it doesn't use .223/5.56 and STANAG magazines, no care.