Well, to the best of my understanding (and I am certainly an amateur theologian and historian)......God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, WITH those capabilities.  They lived in perfect fellowship with their Creator.  There was no need for the Law.  Thats where, of course, Eve "stepped in it" with the whole free will thing...and the rest, is well, human history.  Now, one may question, why a Creator would even give his creation the ability to exercise that free will and disobey....is a good question.  The only thing I can think of, and what other more genuine thinkers than I have thought of, is that had God not given this free will to them, then that would have been coercion of the truest kind....the ultimate in coerced relationships, and therefore unjust act, contrary to God's nature.

Now why did God impose the Law?....to set his people apart, the chosen people of Israel, from the heathenry of the surrounding pagan world at the time...a line in the sand of sorts.  Did God know full well that these people would fail to keep his Law...of course.  But, I believe, this moment of giving the Law to the Hebrew people, was merely a prelude to the culminating act of God's mission to save humanity: the incarnation of the Son.  So yes, on the surface, it does seem petty and parochial....but only on the surface, as compared to the bigger picture of God's plan for salvation.

The Son, Jesus came to our world, as John 1:14 says:  ".....We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth..  It is precisely this grace/truth paradox that I spoke of above.

Hokie....I can totally relate to your position....

I guess for me, there came a time when I could no longer sit on the fence with regards to the predicament we find ourselves in.....the one that finds you staring into the darkness of oblivion.

"perhaps it's the bullshit all around me, perhaps it's the gross disrespect for life that goes unpunished"....yes, the evidence of the fall is all around us, nothing more universally confirmed by human experience, yet nothing more so vehemently denied by many.

I had to make a choice....and that choice was between God or despair(or something just shy of it).  Now, don't get me wrong....there are ALOT of blanks that I want to be filled in, but I trust that they will be in due time.  If I am wrong, like an earlier poster said, I will have lost nothing....

Strongbow answered on my behalf before I got a chance to, and I think this was a satisfactory explanation for how I feel as well.  I will quote him:



In summary, I don't think there is enough evidence to say there is a god.  I don't think there is enough evidence to say there is NOT a god.  However, if there is, it is unlikely to be one described by the myriad world religions, but rather something incomprehensible to human beings.  The idea that we should subscribe to one particular bronze-age god over any of the others (and there are many) is merely a co-incidence of history.  Had we been born in India, I believe that you would be arguing just as strongly that we should trust in Vishnu..

Well said.  There's certainly no harm done accepting faith as it's laid out in front of you.  Regardless of how many versions there are to choose from, I just can't seem to let myself let faith guide my life in this world we live in.  I want to...heck sometimes I feel I need to!  It's kind of like jumping off a high spot with a promised soft landing - only you can't see it.  Every rational bone in my body fights the concept of faith.  Yet, I can't deny "His" existance either. I just don't know.

Another example is how I feel compelled to click on Arfcom religion threads!

In the end, you may be 110% right in that if you're actually wrong - you've lost nothing.  I just can't get myself over the first step!  Maybe I didn't open myself up as a young kid when I went to church all the time and attended Sunday school.  Sundays meant we got donuts after church.  I loved the Boston Cremes, and the chocolate creme filled ones with the white powder coating.  Once I got confirmed - my family stopped going to church.

My parents both say, to this day, that given their own personal issues with the Catholic Church - they now worship in their own personal ways by, as my father puts it....attending the "Church of Bob" (my grandfather's name, who always since he was Irish, he could talk to God whenever he wanted to)

I guess from my view I'm putting what faith I do have in my love for my wife and children.  So long as they are okay, my soul is at an acceptable level of inner peace - though far from perfect...if there even is such a state of being.

<sigh>

I need to crack open a Sammy's.

[/quote]

I can't answer for Psmith, but I often say the same thing.  Here's what I eman by it:

I haven't seen any evidence of a god.  I'm convinced that none of the world's religions are describing such a being accurately.  But I don;t have all the answers, and such a being COULD exist.  So I say god PROBABLY doesn't exist because I not so arrogant as to be absolutely certain of the matter.[/quote]

So would you respect a God who had no more power and authority then you could understand....I would think that goes against the very definition of a god or higher power.
Let’s look at it in the terms of math. Say a child in first grade may only be able to understand addition but there is still much more to math.
As the Child grows older they would begin to understand a little more moving into subtraction, division on and on finding out that there is more and more to math and numbers then men have even yet been able to fully understand.
Yet men still try because the basics are understood...numbers are real...the power is there, while fully understanding it may not be.
To me the world has looked at God in the same light. From the most primitive tribe and their holy rock pile to the Hollywood elite and their scientology there is a universal understanding that there is something greater than man...a creator or higher power so to speak.

Mankind creates religion in the attempt to reach God. We fabricate our own formulas and pathways in the effort to become good enough for Him.
For instance, in the effort to reach God that same primitive tribe may offer a sacrifice… an animal or perhaps even their own child.
Or the Scientologist will pay massive amounts of cash to have their engrams removed.
All this is mankind trying to atone for what separates us from God.
It’s as if we think by Sacrificing enough we can rebuild our relationship with God.
In the confusion of thousands of opinions and religions coupled with our rebellion and rejection of God I can understand slightly where the atheist/agnostic is coming from.

However, the Bible has a message far different from every other holy book and has a “way” to reach God that differs from all the rest.
It’s not about what rules and regulations you must meet or do before you can reach God.
The Bible tells us that there is nothing man can do to take away our own sin.
“But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isa 64:6”
The Bible tells us that God became a man through His son Jesus Christ and paid our penalty…He became the ultimate sacrifice through His death on the Cross so that sinners might have a relationship with God not based on their own merits but Christ’s atonement!
The Bibles “way” to reach God..... is God reaching out to us!
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Rom 5:8
Of course to men this doesn’t seem natural that God would offer salvation as a gift; we want our salvation to be in our control. We like to think salvation can be earned by something we can do.
God trumps that buy saying all your works can’t pay for your mistakes!
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5
To commune with God you must become as holy as God, perfect and without sin. How can we become like Him?
“And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, (Jesus) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” Heb 10:11-12

The message is this; you’re right, you can never reach/know God on your own, religion makes it imposable because religion becomes about what man can do for God.
Salvation makes it possible because it about what God has done for man!
That is the message of the cross!
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev21:6
If you thirst for meaning and truth Jesus says drink of me and you will never thirst again!
“whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 4:14
So what must the sinner do to be saved?
Mark1:14-15 Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

..........something as simple as this means letting go of our own religion...our own way of salvation.
Our truth must be given up for The Truth. We must place our lives in Gods hands...His control.
Saddly many will not relinquish control of their lives and thus end up going their own way... separated from God.

I agree with this (minus the implied position that there is, for sure, a god)



I can think of one ancient culture that did that.    It was the Hebrews.  Besides slaughtering animals (and at least one attempted child sacrifice), they also murdered, pilliaged, and raped other nations.  It is truly nasty stuff.  A thorough, critical reading of hte Old Testament makes it clear that Yahweh is the invention of a bronze-age people.



Many religions have a unique message, but that is not evidence that any one is more right than the other, including Judaism or Christianity



I appreciate that your attempt to persuade or convert me is done with noble intentions.  To save you typing in the future, though, I have to warn you that I am an apostate and know quite well the message of the christian bible!

I hear ya man.....I must say that, as I read your words, I can really sense the tension and unsettledness in your spirit over this issue.  It is one that your heart is pulling you back and forth on.  And, I must say, even believers face this struggle at times.  If they are honest, most will admit so.

You are so, so right when you say that first step is a leap....it is one that is not made easily.  But in the the end, it IS one that we all must make.... we will make the leap, one direction or the other, there is no dodging it....

FWIW....from reading your words, I know that God is nearer to you than you may realize.

Oh, and grab me a Sammy too!

That would certainly be a comfort, and I so intensely hope you're right - for my children's sake well beyond my own.  Thanks for the words.  It's most I've ever spoken and/or written about this subject....and really meant it.  I'm still all over the map, but it does .... feel .... good to vent about it.

<Shrug>  You guys believe what you want.  

I guess I just don't understand why you folks put so much faith in one myth cycle over another.

But I guess that's why I don't believe and you do.

That's why I love this place....even though folks can disagree, there are  no hostilities.

You're certainly welcome.....keep loving those kids.