Quoted: Not so. If there is a real need you can and will be diverted.

to what?  sure they can "needs of the AF" me out of UPT, but that means they need to put me in another training program before i am useful to the AF

Can somebody remind me again why this matters?

Let him tell people whatever he wants to tell them....who cares?

Quoted: Actually my card says ROTC/STDT. I took my enlisted oath twice. Which was one the real one? The officer that did it the second time said the first one didn't mean shit. Was he lying? Not trying to be arguementative, just trying to be accurate.

You know, they do 'em different.  Mine said Cadet.  I've seen some just like yours.  And I've seen some say A1C/E-3.   Whatever.  <shrug>

Quoted: Quoted: Not so. If there is a real need you can and will be diverted. to what?  sure they can "needs of the AF" me out of UPT, but that means they need to put me in another training program before i am useful to the AF

OJT man.


You have been learned in the ways of the force, but that doesn't mean you have to go to Jedi Knight school.

AF....this explains everything.

We're preparing to serve, we don't actually serve IMO.

Just consider the relative impact.....yeah, THAT much in the grand scheme of things...

Quoted: AF....this explains everything. We're preparing to serve, we don't actually serve IMO. Just consider the relative impact.....yeah, THAT much in the grand scheme of things...

right now there might be a cadet in ROTC who will go on to be the CSAF.  relative impact now may be minimal, but that doesnt mean that they have no impact at all.  no matter who you are or what you do, your actions have a ripple effect around you, and should always be taken into consideration

Quoted: Quoted: AF....this explains everything. We're preparing to serve, we don't actually serve IMO. Just consider the relative impact.....yeah, THAT much in the grand scheme of things... right now there might be a cadet in ROTC who will go on to be the CSAF.  relative impact now may be minimal, but that doesnt mean that they have no impact at all.  no matter who you are or what you do, your actions have a ripple effect around you, and should always be taken into consideration

Take your own advice.


To recap what others have said:

You are not serving in the military.  The AF has ZERO authority over you - you don't even fall under the UCMJ.  I don't see how you could get a DD214 if you quit - that is for discharges from active duty, last I checked.

When you get commissioned and get your first LES with PAY on it, it will NOT say Years of Service: 4.  I'm not sure what it will say, but it sure won't say 4.

Right now the AF is PAYING you to go to school.  Remember JFK's little saying, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"  Right now, your country is still doing for you.  I will try to avoid snide Air Force comments, but the idea is that once you are commissioned, you are supposed to begin to do for your country.

If saying you have "served" is so important to you - enlsit for a few years.  Oh wait - that probably wouldn't be "convenient" for you.  Again, it is not service if it is all just about your wants and desires.  We thank vets for their sacrifice because they did just that - they sacrificed time and years - and all too often their health.  You do not fit into that category - and it is insulting to those who do when you insinuate otherwise.

Your at 77 post a day.

Exactly what service are your providing to my country????

Quoted: Your at 77 post a day. Exactly what service are your providing to my country????

You know, we could turn him against Islamist websites....

Quoted: Quoted: Your at 77 post a day. Exactly what service are your providing to my country???? You know, we could turn him against Islamist websites....

Oh great...it's not like they don't hate us enough already.

Quoted: That's your opinion, and that's fine. My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving.  Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving?  I think they are.  We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF.  I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear.  everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done.  no job is less important than the others.

Have you signed on the dotted line?
Can you stop doing ROTC tommorw if you really wanted to?

Thats the difference between what you do and what us Soldiers do, dont get me wrong iam glad you do have an interest in your country but the fact that you have reposted so much on this topic proves you are insecure in what you do.
Your end goal is great in serving this country but doing it through college when millions have grabbed thier balls and went to the recruiter, and have thier whole life changed in basic training, that makes a college path look like the easy way out.

Maybe you should go down to the nearest recruiter's office and enlist because this is obviously bothering you.


P.S. I was overseas for a year and a half and trust me there is a difference being in harms way.

Out

Quoted: You are not serving in the military.  The AF has ZERO authority over you - you don't even fall under the UCMJ.  I don't see how you could get a DD214 if you quit - that is for discharges from active duty, last I checked.  Perhaps you chould check again then.  Contract cadets who are disenrolled from ROTC are given a 214.  As I said before, you can get a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge from the mil by getting kicked out of ROTC for behavior that would get you the boot from AD. When you get commissioned and get your first LES with PAY on it, it will NOT say Years of Service: 4.  I'm not sure what it will say, but it sure won't say 4.  No, it won't say 4 years of service.  I signed a 10 year active duty service commitment.  The clock on that doesnt start until AFTER I finish UPT, so I will be on active duty, but not working on my ADSC until well past a year into my career, and more closely to 2 years. Right now the AF is PAYING you to go to school.  Remember JFK's little saying, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"  Right now, your country is still doing for you.  I will try to avoid snide Air Force comments, but the idea is that once you are commissioned, you are supposed to begin to do for your country.  You're right.  The AF is paying me to go to school.  Once I finish school, they will pay me to learn how to fly jets.  Once I finish that, they will be paying me to fly those jets.  Service is service, regardless of what you do.  The benefit is mutual.  The AF benefits from paying me to go to school because they are investing in a new Lt that they take delivery on in May.  I benefit because i get $ and an education.  Through my whole career there will be mutual benefits.  Right now it would seem like I am comming out ahead in the deal, and when i get sent somewhere hot and with plenty of suck, it will seem like the AF comes out ahead, but there is always the mutual benefit aspect involved. If saying you have "served" is so important to you - enlsit for a few years.  Oh wait - that probably wouldn't be "convenient" for you.  Again, it is not service if it is all just about your wants and desires.  We thank vets for their sacrifice because they did just that - they sacrificed time and years - and all too often their health.  You do not fit into that category - and it is insulting to those who do when you insinuate otherwise.  Are you trying to say that enlisted personnel serve more than officers?  Not to take anything away from the enlisted force, for whom i have nothing but total respect, but to say that an enlisted person serves more than an officer is pretty disrespectful. I am an American first, and an airman second.  The rest is details.  This isn't about my wants and desires.  I joined to serve my country FIRST, and if it works out well for me, that's a nice bonus.

Quoted: Have you signed on the dotted line?  Yes i have Can you stop doing ROTC tommorw if you really wanted to?  I can stop being in ROTC, but I can't stop my obligation to the USAF. Thats the difference between what you do and what us Soldiers do, dont get me wrong iam glad you do have an interest in your country but the fact that you have reposted so much on this topic proves you are insecure in what you do. Your end goal is great in serving this country but doing it through college when millions have grabbed thier balls and went to the recruiter, and have thier whole life changed in basic training, that makes a college path look like the easy way out.  You try it and call it the easy way out.  EVERY SINGLE prior enlisted person who i have encountered in my ROTC career have said that ROTC training is far more demanding than what they had to go through when they were enlisted. (basic training wise)

Quoted: My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving.

Agreed.

In your case, you're simply in training.

I was in ROTC and I do not believe that being in it qualifies as "Serving your country".  Mostly because I saw a lot of ass hats in ROTC.  

Enlisted men (NCOs) in ROTC ARE serving their country by helping cultivate a new corps of officers.  I have a lot of respect for the NCOs in ROTC units....Most of them.

I am a Master Sergeant serving as the Commodant of Cadets and Senior Military Instructor (SMI) in an Army ROTC battalion. I believe cadets are serving their country. Here's why.

The 7 Army Values the cadets adopt as their own and practice daily.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Cadet is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Cadets. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army they are expressing their loyalty. And by doing their share, they show their loyalty to their ROTC unit.

Duty - They spend time assisting the cadre as they inspect JROTC programs, helping the Boy Scouts, helping recruit more cadets. The third year students are planning the commisioning ceremony for the seniors. They help with rappelling and the ropes course for the university. They are planning the memorial for one of the alumni who died in Iraq last year.

Respect - Respect is “treating others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty. And self-respect is a vital ingredient with the Army value of respect, which results from knowing you have put forth your best effort. The Army is one team and each of us has something to contribute. I see this daily with our cadets as they strive to become apart of the Army team.

Self Sacrifice - Cadets have signed on to practice self sacrifice while in the program. They get up at 0530 for PT 3-5 days a week. (I'm sorry for your program if your PT is weak. Ours is not.) They sacrifice study time to attend leadership labs late evenings during the week or the entire day on a saturday.  As 4th year cadets, they plan all the training events from PT to FTXs. They do this outside of class time. The cadre does not do the planning. We just assist on resources. This is all on top of maintaining their grades in the rest of their classes so they get as high on the OML for branching.

Honor - The cadets live and practice honor as a way of life just as the active duty and guard/reserve cadre do. They hold themselves to a higher standard which sets them apart from "joe" student.

Integrity - They have and insist on integrity amongst themselves and the rest of the cadets. This goes along way to creating future great officers.

Personal Courage - It's displayed in those cadets that don't make the standards at the start but kill themselves to make standards in PT, wieght control, grades, attendance etc. Just so they can be apart of something greater than themselves. Just enrolling in ROTC while all their friends laugh at them is displaying personal courage.

I spent 4 hours today with 10 dedicated cadets doing CQB training. Training which is not part of the Army ROTC curriculum, required for summer camp or commissioning. They volunteered to plan, and conduct training that was not even on the battalion training schedule. They wanted this training as it would add an additional level of personal combat readiness when they finally commission. The MSIVs were the AIs and did all the hands on training. That's dedication.

Consider this. All these sacrifices they perform are as civilians and students. That sets them apart from the average "joe". The fact that they are studying and training to be the best officer they can be in "serving their country" in this soldiers eyes.

Maverick 7, out.

Napoleon_Tanerite:

If there is any ONE thing about you that has pissed people off on this board, it's your know-it-all attitude about stuff you know nothing about.  You are showing it now.

Funny you say I am insulting officers.  I am a Captain in the United States Army - am I insulting myself?  If I am insulting anyone, it's people who think they are too important or special to do what has to be done.  Just your comment about (parpahrasing for lack of a view of that page) "well, the AF better train me for something new then" tells me you just don't get it.  If the AF asked you to dig a ditch and load a rifle - you should just DO it.

Perhaps you could say I am insulting cadets?  I was one - commissioned out of ROTC in 1997.  Back in my day, we had several contracted scholarship cadets wash out and/or quite - NONE of them had to serve enlsited time - they ALL paid back money to the Army and were quietly forgotten about.  That is a luxury someone who is truly "in the military" does NOT have.

FWIW, before I was known as Cadet White, I was known to my superiors as PFC White.

So you see, I DO know what I am talking about.  I DO have the experience to compare and contrast these issues that are up for discussion.

I think you will be surprised at how many other people who have tried to set you straight in this thread ALSO know what they are talking about.  They have been where you are, and have done that.  

Quoted: I am a Master Sergeant serving as the Commodant of Cadets and Senior Military Instructor (SMI) in an Army ROTC battalion. I believe cadets are serving their country. Here's why. The 7 Army Values the cadets adopt as their own and practice daily. Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Cadet is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Cadets. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army they are expressing their loyalty. And by doing their share, they show their loyalty to their ROTC unit. Duty - They spend time assisting the cadre as they inspect JROTC programs, helping the Boy Scouts, helping recruit more cadets. The third year students are planning the commisioning ceremony for the seniors. They help with rappelling and the ropes course for the university. They are planning the memorial for one of the alumni who died in Iraq last year. Respect - Respect is “treating others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty. And self-respect is a vital ingredient with the Army value of respect, which results from knowing you have put forth your best effort. The Army is one team and each of us has something to contribute. I see this daily with our cadets as they strive to become apart of the Army team. Self Sacrifice - Cadets have signed on to practice self sacrifice while in the program. They get up at 0530 for PT 3-5 days a week. (I'm sorry for your program if your PT is weak. Ours is not.) They sacrifice study time to attend leadership labs late evenings during the week or the entire day on a saturday.  As 4th year cadets, they plan all the training events from PT to FTXs. They do this outside of class time. The cadre does not do the planning. We just assist on resources. This is all on top of maintaining their grades in the rest of their classes so they get as high on the OML for branching. Honor - The cadets live and practice honor as a way of life just as the active duty and guard/reserve cadre do. They hold themselves to a higher standard which sets them apart from "joe" student. Integrity - They have and insist on integrity amongst themselves and the rest of the cadets. This goes along way to creating future great officers. Personal Courage - It's displayed in those cadets that don't make the standards at the start but kill themselves to make standards in PT, wieght control, grades, attendance etc. Just so they can be apart of something greater than themselves. Just enrolling in ROTC while all their friends laugh at them is displaying personal courage. I spent 4 hours today with 10 dedicated cadets doing CQB training. Training which is not part of the Army ROTC curriculum, required for summer camp or commissioning. They volunteered to plan, and conduct training that was not even on the battalion training schedule. They wanted this training as it would add an additional level of personal combat readiness when they finally commission. The MSIVs were the AIs and did all the hands on training. That's dedication. Consider this. All these sacrifices they perform are as civilians and students. That sets them apart from the average "joe". The fact that they are studying and training to be the best officer they can be in "serving their country" in this soldiers eyes. Maverick 7, out.

Now that is just cheesy .

I did a lot of extra stuff when I was in ROTC - Ranger Challenge, you name it - and the ROTC minimum required stuff was often a real pain in the butt to balance with school.  I was not, however, serving in the military - nor would I have insinuated to anyone that I was.  I was an ROTC cadet, and that is how I would present myself.  To do otherwise smacks of trying to create an impression of somthing else.

I remember when the AFROTC Det CC called all of us prior-enlisted cadets into a room at the beginning of each year to make a foolish attempt at trying to destroy our morale and ordered us to keep quiet about the bullshit portions of the training we were receiving.  He'd go on and on about how he was prior enlisted, was formerly as SSgt,  yada yada.  Anyway, he was trying to build credibility with us.

Nothing wrong with that.  Right?  Wrong.  The prior enlisted time he spoke of was the time he was enlisted as an E-5 in OTS.  Bottom line, misrepresentation.  And from that day forward he was nothing more than a suspected liar and twister of the truth in my eyes.

And furthermore, not a single day of ROTC earns you TAFMSD days or contributes at all toward retirement.  That's the measure of service, save for those that are who are on IRR or something similar.  The three years I spent in ROTC didn't get me one day closer to retirement, just three years further away.

You aren't commissioned yet.  You aren't serving yet.

Was I serving when I decided to enter into ROTC?  NO, that's why it's called a BREAK IN SERVICE.

Now that is just cheesy . I did a lot of extra stuff when I was in ROTC - Ranger Challenge, you name it - and the ROTC minimum required stuff was often a real pain in the butt to balance with school. I was not, however, serving in the military - nor would I have insinuated to anyone that I was. I was an ROTC cadet, and that is how I would present myself. To do otherwise smacks of trying to create an impression of somthing else.

Thanks for trivializing my entire opinion, SIR! Real professional.

Maybe I misread the initial post. I thought the argument was whether or not he was serving his country not serving in the military. Obviously a cadet is not in the military, and I never said they were, but I do believe they are serving the country by volunteering to put up with all the things required in ROTC so they can be the next officers.

We even have a Japanese student who is paying for all 4 years of college and ROTC through his pocket because he wants to join our Army not his own.

Quoted: Thanks for trivializing my entire opinion, SIR! Real professional. Maybe I misread the initial post. I thought the argument was whether or not he was serving his country not serving in the military. Obviously a cadet is not in the military, and I never said they were, but I do believe they are serving the country by volunteering to put up with all the things required in ROTC so they can be the next officers.

you are correct MSgt.  This thread is about whether cadets are serving their country.

There's ROTC and there's ROTC.  The first time I nearly got blown up (missed me by 4 hours) was in Army ROTC at UCLA. I was not a scholarship student and was only under the UCMJ at drills. (Being at UCLA in ROTC in the early 70s was probably more hazardous than most people in the military ever saw. But I digress) Probably not serving per se.

later in Navy ROTC scholarship and before I signed an enlistment contract and I was going to the fleet  as a white hat.  Definitely serving.  Also I had a better than 50/50 chance of getting to the gun line.  My particular ship got stuck in Pearl with engineering problems so instead of going to war I went to Waikiki.  breaks of the game.   A couple of my buddies got Purple Hearts, Combat Action ribbons and weren't ever eligble for either the VN service or National Defense Medals. Not serving according to some of you but, I kind of think I'ld disagree with you.

Happened to be tied up to the Goldsborough for a while.  Ask LWilde what happened to the Goldie in late 72 or early 73.


Now it may be different today, but if you're in uniform and in harms way in any way, in training or not, you're serving.

76 posts per day, Thanks for your service.  

Quoted: 76 posts per day, Thanks for your service.

, isn't that the truth.

Quoted: I did ROTC myself.  There's certainly nothing wrong with ROTC.  ROTC plays a very important role in providing our armed forces with commissioned officers.   ROTC is a very respectable and honorable way to get your foot in the door of the armed forces.  When a college student chooses to enroll in ROTC, it at least speaks to his/her interest in serving and defending the country, and I find that admirable, whether or not he/she actually goes on to serve on active duty.  Most college-age kids these days, it seems, are completely self-interested and self-absorbed, and those who even express an interest in serving their country should be applauded and encouraged. I certainly have much more respect for a college student who chooses to join ROTC than for those who smoke dope and focus solely on how much money they can make when they get to Wall Street or Hollywood, much less for those who actually engage in anti-American and anti-military protests.  (I can't fart loud enough to express my opinion of the protestors). That said... being in ROTC is not like serving on active duty in the military.  You're not out there on the front lines, and you are not even at risk of being sent there (for now).  You are not even subject to UCMJ.  Some may say that those going through basic training are only in training as well, but the difference is, those basic training recruits could find themselves in a hostile-fire zone within days or weeks of graduation. So, ROTC is a great way to start, and is a completely respectable and admirable choice... but it is not the same thing as serving your country in the real military. My $.02.

+ one million

Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for trivializing my entire opinion, SIR! Real professional. Maybe I misread the initial post. I thought the argument was whether or not he was serving his country not serving in the military. Obviously a cadet is not in the military, and I never said they were, but I do believe they are serving the country by volunteering to put up with all the things required in ROTC so they can be the next officers. you are correct MSgt.  This thread is about whether cadets are serving their country.

You know full well what this thread is about - it is about, to use CAR-10's word, "misrepresentation."

OK, postal workers serve their country.  Politicians severe their country.  Heck, anyone who pays taxes serves their country.  The issue here is the implication that you are serving in the MILITARY - and you aren't - yet.

I never caught the earlier thread that apparently spawned this - but I can tell from what I've read here that you seem unable to accept that you are not yet in the military.

Please, whatever you do, don't walk around as a Second Lieutenant and try to impress everyone with your 4 years of "military service" experience at State U.

Quoted: Please, whatever you do, don't walk around as a Second Lieutenant and try to impress everyone with your 4 years of "military service" experience at State U.

Don't tell him that..... let him do that and then he can write about the beating he got.

Quoted: Now that is just cheesy . I did a lot of extra stuff when I was in ROTC - Ranger Challenge, you name it - and the ROTC minimum required stuff was often a real pain in the butt to balance with school. I was not, however, serving in the military - nor would I have insinuated to anyone that I was. I was an ROTC cadet, and that is how I would present myself. To do otherwise smacks of trying to create an impression of somthing else. Thanks for trivializing my entire opinion, SIR! Real professional. Maybe I misread the initial post. I thought the argument was whether or not he was serving his country not serving in the military. Obviously a cadet is not in the military, and I never said they were, but I do believe they are serving the country by volunteering to put up with all the things required in ROTC so they can be the next officers. We even have a Japanese student who is paying for all 4 years of college and ROTC through his pocket because he wants to join our Army not his own.

That smiley was meant to convey a good natured jab.  I apologize if it came off as otherwise.  I just like to pick on the current trend of working the "Army Values" into every speach these days.  Heck, our Chaplain even had to rewrite a eulogy in Iraq because the Colonel felt he didn't highlight the "values" buzzwords enough.

My later comments were directed more at N_D than you - I have no doubt you know the difference.

The issue here with our cadet friend is his attempts to imply he is in the military.  The definition of "service" here has muddied the issue.

I will be the first to agree that life as a cadet can be one hell of a sacrifice, but it is not military service.  On that I see we both agree.

I've signed my contract for Marine PLC and am slated to go to OCS this summer, but I don't see myself as serving. Once I am actually commissioned in the Corps, I beleive I will be serving America.

Quoted: That smiley was meant to convey a good natured jab.  I apologize if it came off as otherwise.  I just like to pick on the current trend of working the "Army Values" into every speach these days.  Heck, our Chaplain even had to rewrite a eulogy in Iraq because the Colonel felt he didn't highlight the "values" buzzwords enough.

To hijack the hijack, I just wish to express my displeasure at the 'corporatisation' of the military. Be it buzzwords, powerpoint, or JIT logistics. Whoever came up with this sort of thing should be shot.

NTM

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AF....this explains everything. We're preparing to serve, we don't actually serve IMO. Just consider the relative impact.....yeah, THAT much in the grand scheme of things... right now there might be a cadet in ROTC who will go on to be the CSAF.  relative impact now may be minimal, but that doesnt mean that they have no impact at all.  no matter who you are or what you do, your actions have a ripple effect around you, and should always be taken into consideration Take your own advice. To recap what others have said: You are not serving in the military.  The AF has ZERO authority over you - you don't even fall under the UCMJ.  I don't see how you could get a DD214 if you quit - that is for discharges from active duty, last I checked. When you get commissioned and get your first LES with PAY on it, it will NOT say Years of Service: 4.  I'm not sure what it will say, but it sure won't say 4. Right now the AF is PAYING you to go to school.  Remember JFK's little saying, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"  Right now, your country is still doing for you.  I will try to avoid snide Air Force comments, but the idea is that once you are commissioned, you are supposed to begin to do for your country. If saying you have "served" is so important to you - enlsit for a few years.  Oh wait - that probably wouldn't be "convenient" for you.  Again, it is not service if it is all just about your wants and desires.  We thank vets for their sacrifice because they did just that - they sacrificed time and years - and all too often their health.  You do not fit into that category - and it is insulting to those who do when you insinuate otherwise.

Amen CPT White!

N_T,

I believe CPT White is saying that enlisted men sacrifice more, in which case, he is correct.

Just think of how silly this is; to most servicemen, it is quite obvious that they are serving their country.  You on the other hand, as an ROTC cadet, have to argue about whether or not you are actually serving your country, in order to make yourself feel better.  That is absolutely pathetic.  I think you need to admit to yourself who the real servicemen are and who aren't.  Regardless of what the paperwork says, an ROTC cadet falls into the latter category.

Take care.

Justin

Just curious, what services did you provide while a cadet?

Interesting discussion.  When I was in OCS in the Air Force I sort of felt like I was in training and not "serving my country" - sort of a probationary member until I graduated.

Of course, today I could be said to "serving my country" every time I pay my taxes.

Quoted: Quoted: Please, whatever you do, don't walk around as a Second Lieutenant and try to impress everyone with your 4 years of "military service" experience at State U. Don't tell him that..... let him do that and then he can write about the beating he got.

I have faith that his subordinates will be able to tactfully tell him he's full of sh*t.

If not, his superiors will just tell him straight up to shut his mouth.


Chris

Originally posted by adam_white; That smiley was meant to convey a good natured jab. I apologize if it came off as otherwise. I just like to pick on the current trend of working the "Army Values" into every speach these days. Heck, our Chaplain even had to rewrite a eulogy in Iraq because the Colonel felt he didn't highlight the "values" buzzwords enough. My later comments were directed more at N_D than you - I have no doubt you know the difference. The issue here with our cadet friend is his attempts to imply he is in the military. The definition of "service" here has muddied the issue. I will be the first to agree that life as a cadet can be one hell of a sacrifice, but it is not military service. On that I see we both agree.

Apparently this thread was started elsewhere and continued here. I did not see the original posts where he implied he was serving in the military.

I believe in the Army values but can't force myself to wear them on my dog tags. We were practicing these values long before someone got an "atta boy" for making their boss think they invented them.

Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for trivializing my entire opinion, SIR! Real professional. Maybe I misread the initial post. I thought the argument was whether or not he was serving his country not serving in the military. Obviously a cadet is not in the military, and I never said they were, but I do believe they are serving the country by volunteering to put up with all the things required in ROTC so they can be the next officers. you are correct MSgt.  This thread is about whether cadets are serving their country.

As a member of the AF as you put it.

If you think any ROTC program is "serving your country," you must be smoking crack.  I served in the Army National Guard, I have been active duty, and did 3 years of ROTC.  I know the difference.  ROTC is only the place you go to make sure you are ready to serve your country... until you really are subject to the UCMJ and can have your ass shipped off to fight you ain't serving shit.  I have seen many a cadet do four years of ROTC and weasel out of any service due, and they sure as hell didn't serve their country.  

I have seen a pattern in my experience... people that love ROTC do poorly in the military.  Usually.  I hated ROTC, and have a great service record and loved the real military.

Quoted: I believe in the Army values but can't force myself to wear them on my dog tags. We were practicing these values long before someone got an "atta boy" for making their boss think they invented them.

Remember when there were 4 Army values......

Quoted: Quoted: I believe in the Army values but can't force myself to wear them on my dog tags. We were practicing these values long before someone got an "atta boy" for making their boss think they invented them. Remember when there were 4 Army values......

Courage

Competence

Commitment

Candor


Before they changed the NCOER, I used to get a kick out of pointing these out to new folks - then asking them what happened to "competence" and "candor" with the re-invention.

Here is it, straight from the horses mouth:

me:  mind me asking why/how you left rotc?

friend:  i wanted to do engineering after 5 yrs of school and they wouldnt let me so i petitioned and got out

me:  you have to pay back the $?

friend: no stipend just tution and books

me:  did you get a "discharge" w/ a DD214?

friend: honorable discharge as a a1c



He has already found and accepted an offer at a great job... he coded out as a 62e(program manager) and was going to Hill and I got 62exe and am heading to Edwards. I guess I got the luck of the draw but I would have been happy either way...

Just a note, this former cadet was one of the top cadets and is a great guy. I wish he would have stayed because he would have made a fine officer, but I didn't know he wanted to leave until after it was a done deal...

(Obviously the names and places have been changed to protect the innocent. No dogs were shot during this conversation.)

Quoted: I have seen a pattern in my experience... people that love ROTC do poorly in the military.  Usually.  I hated ROTC, and have a great service record and loved the real military.

+1

I can't stand it. It's a bunch of kids games for the most part. They call me a "stealth" cadet. My prior record is spotless and I have a couple awards and medals that help show the amount of good work I accomplished which I am proud of (although they are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things). I'm counting the days until I get back into the real world. May 06 baby!!!

Maybe it's changed since I was in ROTC, but I don't remember "Pride" being one of the USAF's core values.

I think that's the Marine Corps.

Quoted: I did the AFROTC thing. I would say that if you're a contracted Cadet, you're in the military.  You've taken the oath, you've signed the papers, and your ass belongs to the government.  You do something to breach your contract, and you'll be held responsible.  And I call BS on not having a rank.  While there is a Cadet rank structure (which promotions are high school like), you are a Cadet.  On your Geneva Conventions ID it says CADET (they don't give you a new card based on your promotions within the quasi Cadet rank structure, because a Cadet is a Cadet - that's a whole other conversation). A freshman Cadet on a full ride can quit after the first year and will not owe a dime.  Freshman ROTC Cadets are not even allowed to contract, so this may be where some of you heard of folks on a full ride quitting and not owing anything back. The AF's Force Shaping has caused some Cadets to lose their Commission and not owe a red cent; they did no quit of their own free will. But a contracted Cadet in their junior or senior year can't just quit and expect not to owe a dime.  Those would be rare instances. Some of you may not consider a college student in ROTC to be "serving their country."  I disagree due to the fact that they are receiving valuable training.  You're in training for four straight years.  Some of the material may be a joke, but the fundamentals they teach are pretty might right on.  We're not here to critique the ROTC curriculum though, I digress.   hting Keep in mind that there are numerous ways to serve one's country, and not everyone is eligble to wear the uniform.  Many have health problems but would make better servicemen/women than some currently serving.  I'd say if you've taken the oath, and you're in training, you're serving. I agree, Cadets don't have an MOS (or as we say in the AF, an AFSC), but they do have a job, and that job is to learn their role as an Airman and to graduate on time. And NT, UPT (pilot training for those that don't know) isn't all classroom.  Don't play it down on here.  UPT was no doubt the hardest thing I've done.  Its a lot of learning in one non stop year (60 hours per week AT work and at least another 20 or so studying/planning).  And it is definitely something I would not want to repeat (although I'd know all the tricks).  But they don't teach you to drop bombs.  hatever I'm raising my glass WITH ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE SERVED, ARE SERVING, OR WILL SERVE in the future.  Cheers. Don't we have better shit to get our panties in a bunch over?  I mean, c'mon.  hr

+1

Quoted: Maybe it's changed since I was in ROTC, but I don't remember "Pride" being one of the USAF's core values. I think that's the Marine Corps.

Excellence in All We Do

Do cadets, if they never get commissioned or serve after school count as veterans?  No.

Do cadets really belong to the government?  No.  There are ways out, even for the "contracted."  I've seen people do it.

Do cadets train for a real mission?  No.

Do cadets have an MTOE?  No.

Are cadets subject to the UCMJ?  No.

Are cadet "officer" orders considered lawful orders?  No.

Are cadet "NCOs" really NCOs?  No.

Can Army cadets do Drill and Ceremony worth a shit?  Hell no.

Are cadets serving their country.  Not yet, for those that go all the way.  Anyone who feels the need to say he is, is probably a ROTC NAZI.

Quoted: That's your opinion, and that's fine. My opinion is that if you sign on the dotted line and wear the uniform, you're serving.  Does that mean the OTS cadets and USAFA cadets are not serving?  I think they are.  We are training to be officers, and that is how we are currently serving the AF.  I see no difference in service if someoen is "in harms way" than if they are in the rear with the gear.  everyone has their part of the mission to do, and if they do not do their part, then the mission does not get done.  no job is less important than the others.

___

By your opinion, your currently serving nothing else other than yourself.

You're a trainee....and an ***wipe.

I'm in my fourth year as an Army ROTC cadolt.  i was a junior enlisted for a little while before i recontracted as a dot.  The only time i'm subject to the UCMJ (that I'm aware of) is when I drill.  I wear the uniform with pride, but I don't like to draw attention to myself, and I would hardly consider doing what I do right now as 'serving' the country, simply because the Army won't/can't easily place me in harm's way.