wonder what their tolerance for islamic terrorists would be.

...would be kind of ironic if they were they only group, besides the israelis, left in the world who would stand up to them.

Quoted: Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The [National Democratic Party], which last entered a German state parliament in 1968, campaigned on a "German money for German interests" platform which included vigorous opposition to European Union enlargement, foreign immigration, and government plans to cut benefits for the long-term unemployed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nazi's? I dunno know. I do know that an awful lot of people on these boards openly advocate: 1. Sealing our borders to prevent Islamic extremists and Illegals from getting in. Many view this as an invasion of our country. 2. Are sick and tired of their tax dollars being spent on second, third and fourth generation welfare recipients and other fraudulent SSI recipients. 3. Are espousing that the US says "Screw the rest of the world, either you're with us or against us". I dont hear anyone calling them Nazi's. On these boards we call them PATRIOTS I have no problem with PATRIOTS… however this particular brand of German 'Patriotism' resulted in a World War last time it was let out of the bottle. I don't agree with the Right Wing Germans = Right Wing Americans (or Brits or whoever) comparison. Germany has only existed as a country for just over 130 years. In that time it has started the Franco-Prussian War, World War I, World War II and the attempted Genocide of an entire race… that's quite a unique track record… a track record that resulted in something like 60+ miilion dead! As a Country they do seem to have an unfortunate habit of starting wars… Andy

Today people are called patriots, tomorrow traitors. The Mujahadeen were called FREEDOM FIGHTERS, now we call them terrorists. At one time Israeli's were called terrorists before the founding of that country in 1948. It goes with the political clime of the time.

The arguements are the same though. Stop immigration, stop giving tax dollars to the leeches of society, and if the rest of the world does'nt like it, screw em'.

If we based all of our opinions on past actions of nations that have done us wrong, you guys over in the UK should be first on OUR LIST.  But that's ridicoulous, right? Right.

I certainly would not condemn anyone for wanting those same things  mentioned above, hell I want those things to happen herein the US.  Am I a NAZI? According to Ultra Left Wing types in the US, I am! To what we call conservatives here, I'm a Patriot, go figure.



 

Fair points Steyer,

but remember both Germany and France are pushing for an EU 'Armed Forces' under a single flag. My guess is the USA will get really annoyed if this is set up (and GW has already stated he regards the setting up of such as a threat to NATO) and will take its ball and pull out within 10 years. A United States of Europe with a xenophobic and Anti American France an Germany at it's centre could be a potential advisary. And  no, I don't think that is stretching credibility too far, your people in the State Department and DoD already think this as a possible scenario.

Example… France and Germany realy went up to the line as far as they could opposing the US over Iraq, now imagine a senario were they had a large military to carry on their row, Imagine if a Franco-German dominated Europe deployed it's Euro Navy to impose a blockade of the Straits of Hormuz to try and stop our action in Iraq…

The only country in Europe that is taking concrete action to block the rise of right wing neo-nazi parties is Britain, were the Government is passing regulations banning members of the BNP (our  brand of neo Nazis) from joining the Police, being in the armed forces and being employed in the  Government Civil Service.

ANdy

Andy

vito113: Example… France and Germany realy went up to the line as far as they could opposing the US over Iraq, now imagine a senario were they had a large military to carry on their row, Imagine if a Franco-German dominated Europe deployed it's Euro Navy to impose a blockade of the Straits of Hormuz to try and stop our action in Iraq.

Good thing we have nukes now.

The only country in Europe that is taking concrete action to block the rise of right wing neo-nazi parties is Britain, were the Government is passing regulations banning members of the BNP (our brand of neo Nazis) from joining the Police, being in the armed forces and being employed in the Government Civil Service.

Sounds like a good thing. The USA should ban from such jobs people who support kicking out all of the illegals, and shooting the ones who try to get back in. Ahh freedom.

This seems to happen every few years...usually when the CDU is losing.  The fact that Germany has been "pussified" and pushed down for 60 years is the issue. They never seem to step up and achieve any balance...it's one extreme or the other. Jeebus!

I recall Germany 15 and 10 years ago where the Gov was granting assylum to ANYONE who wandered in, for ANY reason. I was a favorite trick of folks from other countries to come to Germany, ask for assylum. They would be processed, put on a list to await a hearing, which was 3-5 years down the road. Meanwhile, they had to live, right? So they were given a place to live, free food and medical, no need for employment. You'd see legions of Turkish men, dressed in that odd Afghan sort of style wearing a blazer and dress pants with a crappy dressshirt and sandles hanging about, playing chess and drinking tea. Meanwhile German citizens are working day in day out as these foreigners watched.

The reason why Germany is screwed, Schroeder aside, is due to several issues.

Reunification brought a host of problems. East Germans who worked a 10-20 hour work week on the State roles wanted 35 hours pay when the wall came down. Get this....when they worked in Western industry the failed. They were physically unable to work a normal workday. (My dad called that LAZY) but it happened. Furthermore, they simply wanted to step in prosperity and live the high life. The rate of exchange for East to West German Mark REALLY pissed of a lot of West Germans.

European Union brought a single currency, which was great for Greece, Spain, Italy, et al. But not for Germany. The German Mark was devalued.  Everyday items that cost 1 DM (or at the time, about $.50 to .75) were suddenly 1 EURO, (or $1.75-2.00) Think about that.....what a screw job. Some of the Merchants SCREWED over their fellows. Naturally, in the weaker economies the opposite occured. But that economic assfuck was just another price to pay for past sins.

The reason why you have a radical rise is their is no moderate voice. Germany spends all of its time trying to be all things to everyone. And only ther German people suffer.

Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The [National Democratic Party], which last entered a German state parliament in 1968, campaigned on a "German money for German interests" platform which included vigorous opposition to European Union enlargement, foreign immigration, and government plans to cut benefits for the long-term unemployed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nazi's? I dunno know. I do know that an awful lot of people on these boards openly advocate: 1. Sealing our borders to prevent Islamic extremists and Illegals from getting in. Many view this as an invasion of our country. 2. Are sick and tired of their tax dollars being spent on second, third and fourth generation welfare recipients and other fraudulent SSI recipients. 3. Are espousing that the US says "Screw the rest of the world, either you're with us or against us". I dont hear anyone calling them Nazi's. On these boards we call them PATRIOTS

Ummm, except one big difference.....

...you see, these guys in Germany ACTUALLY ARE NAZIs!
Nazis, Geman Nazis.
Admirers of Hitler.
German Nazis?
Germany, Hilter, Nazis, WWII....

...any of that ring a bell?

Quoted: Ummm, except one big difference..... ...you see, these guys in Germany ACTUALLY ARE NAZIs!

Quoted: Quoted: Have the French began making white flags in earnest? And are we going to bail their asses out again or should we politely (or not) decline going to war on their behalf.....?

Well, we will just have to explain to them that we really need UN approval before we can commit to helping them. Wouldn't want anyone to think we are imperialistic because we acted alone would we?

I still can't see the EU as a threat.  Half the EU countries wouldn't go along with open confrontation with the US.  And even if they did, it would take a level of military build-up that they don't have the will for.  Any arms build-up they did embark on would rapidly turn into a corrupt crony system jobs program.  Look at the last carrier the French tried to build, the Charles DeGaulle.  Was way over budget, delivered late and delivered in a non-operational condition.  Eurofighter Typhoon, same story.  And France is the "strong man" of the EU as far as military/industrial capability, the capabilities of the Danes, Germans, Italians, Spanish and Belgians are even further behind.

i say we defend Britain and Poland.  the Germans can have the rest of europe.

Quoted: Have the French began making white flags in earnest? Edited to add: This is exactly the tactics used by the Nazis to gain power. They preyed on the dispair of the Germans who were in a terrible economic state during the Weimar era, and slowly went from a lunatic fringe to an accpted part, until eventually they had complette control of the country. They did not come to power overnight, but sowly over decades.

Exactly. And in many posts where I have warned that we never did destroy Nazi sentiment, people warned that all the Nazis left over were tottering old men and were no longer a threat.

Any student of history knows that tottering old men teach eager young men, and that is how evil is perpetuated.

Quoted: I still can't see the EU as a threat.  Half the EU countries wouldn't go along with open confrontation with the US.  And even if they did, it would take a level of military build-up that they don't have the will for.  Any arms build-up they did embark on would rapidly turn into a corrupt crony system jobs program.  Look at the last carrier the French tried to build, the Charles DeGaulle.  Was way over budget, delivered late and delivered in a non-operational condition.  Eurofighter Typhoon, same story.  And France is the "strong man" of the EU as far as military/industrial capability, the capabilities of the Danes, Germans, Italians, Spanish and Belgians are even further behind.

The EU isn't currently a threat only because they don't have the right kind of leader to unite and lead them.

One day they will. Mark my words.

Quoted: I say we defend Britain and Poland.  the Germans can have the rest of europe.

Good idea.  I vote we also include the north countries in our sphere of prosperity.  I doubt they'd need our help to defend themselves, but they'd make very good allies.  

Damn...can you picture German Leopard tanks rolling into Paris?  
I wonder if we could get the German cavalry to ride in with their officers carrying sabres at the ready like they did the last time.

I don't know folks. Probably would be a good idea to keep an eye on these ones. That is part of how the Nazi's of the third Reich came to be.  Germany had similar sercomstances ( can't spell today) in the 30's when Hitler promissed he would pull them out of shame , despair and economic strife. that was how he came to power. Could this happen again? Probably. Look at all the places in the world that "Ethnic Cleansing" still happens. I would'nt take these guys too litely. take care.

[IDF]Dibs!!! We call Dibs!!![/IDF]

One of the things that makes the resurgence of TRUE (as against copycat) Nazism in Germany very worrying is that economic circumstances are sowing a very fertile ground. The Social welfare policies of most European countries are creating an economic  'black hole' of frightening proportions.

Now, many of you say that Britain has a Socialist Government, and yes we do… but it's 'socialist lite'. The thing that is causing the Euro economies to head for a 'melt down' is their refusal to accept they need to change in the way that Margaret Thatcher made Britain change in the 80's. Sweep away old industries, wholesale reform of government and the Welfare System and denationalizing of industries.

Europe as a whole has an aging population and some counties are now reaching the stage were they have as nearly as many people drawing their State Funded Retirement Pensions as there are workers paying in.

Now in Britain, our State Pension is set @ 20% of average national wages, most mainland Euro countries have much more generous pensions than Britain and in some Euro counties you retire on 85% of the Average National wage! and that is totally unsustainable.

And this is the problem Germany faces… it has a large and relatively wealthy older population enjoying relative wealth and free healthcare who obviously don't want to see their benefits cut, and a younger population raising hell because not only do they object to supporting all these oldies in wealth, but don't like the idea they will not be able to retire in a similar financial state when its their turn. Its financial and economic suicide to do nothing, but if you DO cut spending as Germany has just done the Right WIng gains ground!

So what will happen? Well Britain has by far the healthiest economy in Europe by a huge margin, low interest rates, good growth, low inflation, low taxes (20%) and effectively zero unemployment. There is plenty of room for spending and growth.

However, mainland Europe has seen the adoption of the Euro cause a high rate of inflation, they have very high direct taxes… typically 30-40+%, zero or negative growth and high unemployment… these are the seed of an economic collapse of impressive proportions.

Now, as a short term fix, Europe has allowed mass migration of younger workers from the East Europe and Africa to try and shore up its population base, but it has backfired. The majority of those that do move are economic migrants who contribute little to their hosts countries GDP and often take more out of the Welfare systems than they contribute.

As I see it, not only is Europe heading for a major economic melt down, but the Governments by turning a blind eye to immigration have given the Right Wing something to 'latch onto' to say, "look! its all the fault of the soft Government allowing all these foreigners in" and this message has started to have a resonance in Europe as things get worse economically. Sounds familiar? It's starting to look a bit  like the situation in the Weimar Republic of the 20's to me, granted, we do not have a 'new Hitler ' yet, but producing the  'fertile ground' may just sow one sooner than later.

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: Lets run the extreme hypotheticals. Germany and France combined form a military independent of NATO and build to full capacity. First they will never achieve the military force of the former USSR and second it would never get large enough to threaten the US or even the UK given the assistance of the US. Now they "could" run willy nilly all over Eastern Europe and gobble up former soviet sattelites but that is hardly anything new in this century and quite franky "Who cares we are busy with important things." The ONLY was they could threaten the US or UK is with nukes and guess what we have them too so we would be back to the Cold War stalemate of Mutually Assured Destruction.

Now I agree Steyer,

This is an extreme hypothesis, but while I don't believe for one minute that a United States of Europe would directly square up to the US, I could see them being very 'difficult'. France is the problem here, they want to regain past 'glory' and see a strong Europe as a way to reassert themselves in the World, they are almost indistinguishable from Germany now they are so buddy-buddy with them. France is actively seeking to dismantle NATO by campagining to set up a European Defence Force with a HQ in France of course, a weakened NATO suits France very well.

Andy

Quoted: One of the things that makes the resurgence of TRUE (as against copycat) Nazism in Germany very worrying is that economic circumstances are sowing a very fertile ground. The Social welfare policies of most European countries are creating an economic  'black hole' of frightening proportions. Now, many of you say that Britain has a Socialist Government, and yes we do… but it's 'socialist lite'. The thing that is causing the Euro economies to head for a 'melt down' is their refusal to accept they need to change in the way that Margaret Thatcher made Britain change in the 80's. Sweep away old industries, wholesale reform of government and the Welfare System and denationalizing of industries. Europe as a whole has an aging population and some counties are now reaching the stage were they have as nearly as many people drawing their State Funded Retirement Pensions as there are workers paying in. Now in Britain, our State Pension is set @ 20% of average national wages, most mainland Euro countries have much more generous pensions than Britain and in some Euro counties you retire on 85% of the Average National wage! and that is totally unsustainable. And this is the problem Germany faces… it has a large and relatively wealthy older population enjoying relative wealth and free healthcare who obviously don't want to see their benefits cut, and a younger population raising hell because not only do they object to supporting all these oldies in wealth, but don't like the idea they will not be able to retire in a similar financial state when its their turn. Its financial and economic suicide to do nothing, but if you DO cut spending as Germany has just done the Right WIng gains ground! So what will happen? Well Britain has by far the healthiest economy in Europe by a huge margin, low interest rates, good growth, low inflation, low taxes (20%) and effectively zero unemployment. There is plenty of room for spending and growth. However, mainland Europe has seen the adoption of the Euro cause a high rate of inflation, they have very high direct taxes… typically 30-40+%, zero or negative growth and high unemployment… these are the seed of an economic collapse of impressive proportions. Now, as a short term fix, Europe has allowed mass migration of younger workers from the East Europe and Africa to try and shore up its population base, but it has backfired. The majority of those that do move are economic migrants who contribute little to their hosts countries GDP and often take more out of the Welfare systems than they contribute. As I see it, not only is Europe heading for a major economic melt down, but the Governments by turning a blind eye to immigration have given the Right Wing something to 'latch onto' to say, "look! its all the fault of the soft Government allowing all these foreigners in" and this message has started to have a resonance in Europe as things get worse economically. Sounds familiar? It's starting to look a bit  like the situation in the Weimar Republic of the 20's to me, granted, we do not have a 'new Hitler ' yet, but producing the  'fertile ground' may just sow one sooner than later. Andy

All I can say is this: Andy's spot on with his analysis, and we best watch Old Europe with a VERY suspicious eye from now on.

I spoke to a friend of mine about this article, and he sent me his thoughts. BTW, he was an intel analyst in a former life and specialized in this region, so I greatly respect his opinion.

 Lots of thoughts.  The first is "it's the economy...".  The West Germans were doing very well, thank you, supporting one of the most generous social contracts in the world -- only the Scandinavians do better -- because their economy was strong and by-and-large well managed, even surviving occasional downturns.  Then 1989 comes along, and they take on the burden of East Germany.  I have no love and less sympathy for the DDR;  it was one of the worst perversions of the Soviet excuse for socialism that ever existed in Europe, second only to Romania (and not a distant second, at that).  A ferocious police state, zero work ethic, completely outmoded industrial plant (that is, what was left after the Soviets took literally everything in '45), nearly no improvements to infrastructure in 45 years since the end of the war, the only thing they were any good at (other than Zeiss lenses) was espionage, and then only with any effectiveness against the West Germans, which is no challenge at all.  I was in Meissen (you know, the famous chinaware) in '92, and if you ignored the small number of modern automobiles and the occasional neon sign, it looked exactly as if nothing had been touched for sixty years.  Except that a number of buildings were either falling down or about to.  Even East Berlin, their showcase, still looked like parts of the South Bronx when you got away from the main "tourist" areas downtown.

OK, so the rich Wessis take on this basket case, they've got high hopes to fix it, a lot of promises made or implied.  The East Germans had dreams of instant wealth.  Trouble is, it's a money pit, and will be for generations to come.  They have to rebuild an entire country from the ground up in tough economic times,  with competition looming from the rest of Eastern Europe.  And it's not happening, at least at a rate that anyone can notice.  The east is still dirt-poor, with no real relief in sight.  Think back to Germany in the immediate post-World War I period, or the start of the Great Depression -- economic hardship drives people to extreme political views.

There are also a few unresolved political issues leftover from the wars (WW II and Cold).  Most are flavors of the same problem:  reparations for displaced persons and land ownership issues, both in the ex-DDR and parts of Poland and the Czech republic that were German before 1939.  The could be some racial/ethnic tooth-grinding going on, too (fear of being overwhelmed by Slavic job-seekers flooding in from the East), but I haven't heard that much of it.

But I don't see a far-right swing in Germany, at least not for the foreseeable future.  Things aren't that bad yet, and memories are still strong.  Fifty years from now, could be different.

My Garand is still battle ready! It killed Nazi's before they ain't special now!

I'd agree with this assessment…

I also agree a major far right wing swing won't happen yet… but it is making a small start in West Germany which has until now managed to surpress it's extreme right and keep the genie in the bottle, now it's out it's going to be hard to put it back.

I reckon 2025 will be the end of the EU as we know it… that's when the economists are predicting the Pensions Meltdown will bite and the money runs out.

ANdy

Larry Bond wrote "Cauldron" a few years back. Yeah, it's fiction but in it's storylline is the Franco-German Union and how it bullies the rest of Western Europe "join the union or else" and the US pledge to defend a defiant Poland. Pretty good read.

The only plus side is maybe they'll kick the shit out of france again.

Here's a little background about where I'm coming from:

I'm a former German citizen, and emmingrated to the US in 1983 at the age of 15. My mom married a GI after my father passed away. I usually visit every few years or so.

First of all, the NPD and KPD have been around for a long time. Of course when I left Germany, I was too young to vote, but following political discussions, the "right wing" NPD always got worse press than the "left wing" communist KPD. Fringe parties always obtain more votes when things are bad. Always have, always will.

So what's wrong with Germany? Like cduarte's post correctly explained, it's the economy, stupid. The reunification has been a major disaster, economically speaking. The DDR was esentially a second world country, if nor worse, and to bring that up to the West's standards has taken billions upon billions of dollars.

Add to that the fact that they're facing the same problems as other countries with large social programs (including the US): the people paying into the pot are diminshing as those getting payments are relentless increasing. They're just a littlel ahead of us, since the amount of benefits they were handing out exceeded those here.

Health insurance was very cheap, medication was virtually free. Hardly anything in the way of copayments. Generous unemployment benefits.

There's one other little problem: Immigration from all over the world, especially the former Warsaw pact countries.

Here's an example: I grew up in a town of about 1000, went to school in a town of 15000. There was a US Armybase there, kind of small, but they had M60 tanks, M113 APC and stuff like that. Part of the 3rd Armored Division, I believe. That base has closed down. Guess what that base is now? Low income/free housing for immigrants.

[Edited to add]: The foreign immigrants have an inherent "right" to housing, while Germans have to struggle to find a place to live. Not only that - but the housing is largely paid for by the taxpayers

Now you have to imagine that living in Germany is approximately like living in the Bay area. Housing is scarce, and buildig your own house ain't happening. Hopefully, you'll inherit your parents house. It's terrible.

Germany is paying out the nose for all these immigrants. I don't know what law is the basis for it, but Germany is being overrun with immigrants, and Germans are paying out the nose for it. My uncle told me that he went to the dentist. He noticed a family of Russians there gettig their complete dental work redone. The dentist told him that when he's done, he will have given them thousand of dollars of care - compliments of the German taxpayer.

Even small towns, like the one I grew up in, have large populations of immigrants. For a homogenous society like Germany, it is not easy to accept - especially when that foreign population brings a large amount of crime with it.

This all adds up to a huge mess. Obviously, the resentment against the fiscal policies is what is fueling the rise of fringe parties - especially in the east, where living standards and jobs have lagged those in the West even after all the money and aid that the western part has poured in.

Germany as a whole, though, is too well off to present a serious problem. There's no reason for the average German to support a radical government at this time. That may change though....

I hear what your saying Zhukov,

I travel through Germany quite a lot, when you pass over the former border into what was East Germany it is astonishing the difference. Despite Zillions of Marks the place looks a complete derelict mess… I try to avoid the old East if possible, they can be somewhat 'unfriendly' to Auslanders.

As to why Germany allows millions of Immigrants? Germany felt guilty after the war and became one of the most liberal and all encompassing countries in Europe, and as long as the wall was up the only immigrants they got were a small number from the EEC who were mostly skilled professionals. When the wall came down everyoene from the East, which was piss poor, immidiately went to the Richest Country with the most generous benefits… West Germany.

10 years ago nothing was amiss, but when I went last year there was difinately a sense of 'tension' in some of the cities and graffiti calling for 'Auslanders Raus' has become common.

The problem is everytime the EU expands Germany gets another wave of economic migrants… something has got to give.

Andy

Quoted: As to why Germany allows millions of Immigrants? Germany felt guilty after the war and became one of the most liberal and all encompassing countries in Europe, and as long as the wall was up the only immigrants they got were a small number from the EEC who were mostly skilled professionals. When the wall came down everyoene from the East, which was piss poor, immidiately went to the Richest Country with the most generous benefits… West Germany. 10 years ago nothing was amiss, but when I went last year there was difinately a sense of 'tension' in some of the cities and graffiti calling for 'Auslanders Raus' has become common. The problem is everytime the EU expands Germany gets another wave of economic migrants… something has got to give. Andy

Most definately true. I distinctly remember back in, oh, around 97 or 98. The CDU was in power, and elections were coming up. My cousin was visiting me for his honeymoon, and he pretty much stated what a lot of Germans were feeling. The CDU (basically the Republicans) must go. Helmut Kohl was finished and the SPD (equivalent to the Democrats) has risen to power. I told him back then that this was not going to solve anything. Oh well. Guess they realize that now and the SPD is losing huge numbers of voters.

A lot of average German citizens feel like they are carrying the burden of WW2 on their backs, because anytime someone suggests that immigration policy is changed, they are browbeaten by calls of "NAZI!". It's the same way here - you try to protect our own borders, and people label you as a fascist. So the goverment continues to provide financial aid in ruinous amounts to immigrants. There are several large German cities where Germans are the minority. Frankfurt and Berlin are two examples.

Nowhere is the rise of extremism more pronounced than in Russia though. You don't hear about it in the news very often, but they've got themselves a real nasty right-wing extremist  problem. Saw a TV show on that not too long ago when I was visiting.

All in all, I think there's very little external threat being presented by Germany. They are too pacifist. That's the same thing that Kerry doesn't understand - they're not going to send troops even if he, the mighty Europe-appeasing liberal, is elected President.

Quoted: Quoted: AThere are several large German cities where Germans are the minority. Frankfurt and Berlin are two examples.

I avoid Frankfurt now…saw some 'unfriendly' natives… and this Auslander did get Raus.

I agree, Germany will not be an external threat to the rest of the world, but I do worry that the Government will be too worried to do 'something' to halt the rise of the Far Right because they are scared to pass any laws that are 'unliberal', they may allow the Far Right  to rise by default.

Example… a few years ago the Government tried to ban the NPD, but the Supreme Court said 'no', that's 'undemocratic' even though the NPD is commited to a non democratic policy!

ANdy

I am glad they are taking their country back. It doesn't mean their going to invade anybody in the next decade. European freeloading immigrants or Mexicans flooding in leeching of the system here - same thing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AThere are several large German cities where Germans are the minority. Frankfurt and Berlin are two examples. I avoid Frankfurt now…saw some 'unfriendly' natives… and this Auslander did get Raus. I agree, Germany will not be an external threat to the rest of the world, but I do worry that the Government will be too worried to do 'something' to halt the rise of the Far Right because they are scared to pass any laws that are 'unliberal', they may allow the Far Right  to rise by default. Example… a few years ago the Government tried to ban the NPD, but the Supreme Court said 'no', that's 'undemocratic' even though the NPD is commited to a non democratic policy! ANdy

The last time I visited Frankfurt, I didn't even know that I was in Germany! An old woman came up to me, nodded in the direction of some "guest workers" and rolled her eyes. You feel tension in the air everywhere, and it was pathetic.  In other cities, it seems like a lot of the younger Germans were either totally pacifist lefties, or extreme hard-core right wingers. I saw very few kids in the middle.

Quoted: Example… a few years ago the Government tried to ban the NPD, but the Supreme Court said 'no', that's 'undemocratic' even though the NPD is commited to a non democratic policy! ANdy

Not quite accurate.  All political parties in Germany must be democratic, or they are illegal.  The German courts ruled that the NPD did indeed have a democratic stance and it was therefore unable to ban the NPD.

Quoted: Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The [National Democratic Party], which last entered a German state parliament in 1968, campaigned on a "German money for German interests" platform which included vigorous opposition to European Union enlargement, foreign immigration, and government plans to cut benefits for the long-term unemployed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nazi's? I dunno know. I do know that an awful lot of people on these boards openly advocate: 1. Sealing our borders to prevent Islamic extremists and Illegals from getting in. Many view this as an invasion of our country. 2. Are sick and tired of their tax dollars being spent on second, third and fourth generation welfare recipients and other fraudulent SSI recipients. 3. Are espousing that the US says "Screw the rest of the world, either you're with us or against us". I dont hear anyone calling them Nazi's. On these boards we call them PATRIOTS Ummm, except one big difference..... ...you see, these guys in Germany ACTUALLY ARE NAZIs! Nazis, Geman Nazis. Admirers of Hitler. German Nazis? Germany, Hilter, Nazis, WWII.... ...any of that ring a bell?

My point being that if you say that they are Actually Nazi's, based on the above aspects of their political agenda,then anybody who wants the same things in this country are Nazi's too.

News Flash, you dont have to be German to be a Nazi. Nazism is an ideology, just like communism. In your line of thinking only Russians can be communists. It does'nt work that way.

cool.

Quoted: Are these guys really "Sieg Heil let's kill all the Jews" Nazis, or is this just a label being tossed onto any right wing group in Europe? 'cause I mean, parts of the "left wing" here in the US would get called "right wing" in Europe.

That is a very good question. Because here in the states, any lefty, pinko. that disagrees with you will scream, "rasist! Neo-Nazi!, Bigot!, White supreemist! Hate monger!, ect........


Pinko booger eaters!

Quoted: Quoted: Example… a few years ago the Government tried to ban the NPD, but the Supreme Court said 'no', that's 'undemocratic' even though the NPD is commited to a non democratic policy! ANdy Not quite accurate.  All political parties in Germany must be democratic, or they are illegal.  The German courts ruled that the NPD did indeed have a democratic stance and it was therefore unable to ban the NPD.

From my post on page 1……

"Germany's security service (BVS) describes the NPD as a party that wants to end immigration and actively seeks to undermine the country's democratic and legal foundations. The NPD's ideas display close affinity with Nazi ideology and can be characterized by an aggressive hatred of foreigners, according to the service's 1999 national security report. The document further states that the NPD is anti-Semitic-playing down Nazi crimes and denying that the Holocaust ever happened. According to the report of the BVS, the party's main aim is to abolish Germany's democratic institutions and to replace them with a new political system."

Basically the Supreme Court chickened out from grasping the nettle…

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: Have the French began making white flags in earnest? And are we going to bail their asses out again or should we politely (or not) decline going to war on their behalf.....?

I say we tell them to piss up a rope. Remember what happened last time we helped Europe out? We came to the rescue and they still shit on us to the day.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The [National Democratic Party], which last entered a German state parliament in 1968, campaigned on a "German money for German interests" platform which included vigorous opposition to European Union enlargement, foreign immigration, and government plans to cut benefits for the long-term unemployed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nazi's? I dunno know. I do know that an awful lot of people on these boards openly advocate: 1. Sealing our borders to prevent Islamic extremists and Illegals from getting in. Many view this as an invasion of our country. 2. Are sick and tired of their tax dollars being spent on second, third and fourth generation welfare recipients and other fraudulent SSI recipients. 3. Are espousing that the US says "Screw the rest of the world, either you're with us or against us". I dont hear anyone calling them Nazi's. On these boards we call them PATRIOTS Ummm, except one big difference..... ...you see, these guys in Germany ACTUALLY ARE NAZIs! Nazis, Geman Nazis. Admirers of Hitler. German Nazis? Germany, Hilter, Nazis, WWII.... ...any of that ring a bell? My point being that if you say that they are Actually Nazi's, based on the above aspects of their political agenda,then anybody who wants the same things in this country are Nazi's too. News Flash, you dont have to be German to be a Nazi. Nazism is an ideology, just like communism. In your line of thinking only Russians can be communists. It does'nt work that way.

That's all well and good, except one thing...


THESE GUYS ARE INDEED 'GERMAN' NAZIS!

Zhukov, above, used the one word which might lead to expansion of the Nazi movement:  resentment.  He speaks of the resentment against immigrants, and I'm sure he's right.  Sounds familiar in the 1920's and 1930's context.  All one needs is a target, and someone to step in front of the "movement."  BUT, this is something I'd leave alone.  If they want to fight it out, let them.  (And, as an aside, this time leave the French to the GErmans).

One thing I can't comprehend is the problem with the reunification.  Zhukov correctly assesses it, and many others as well as my own observation confirm it.  I would have thought it a question of honor to bring the "sliced-off" Eastern Zone back into Germany.  After all, it is the fault of the Germans' ancestors that the division had to happen.  This is not a situation as in the US where some would hold people who were not even here (the "slavery reparations" issue).  The Germans were there.  As I said, you do what is needed to reunify your country.  I know I'm alone in this, but just a thought.  

I just wanted to make one comment in regards to the "Nazi" thing.

The NPD and others of their ilk are NOT Nazis.

Semantics, maybe, but bear me out.

I prefer to think of Nazism in the narrow context of members of the NSDAP and the associated WW2 era Germany and those adherents of that particular philosophy today.

Too many times is that term thrown around with impunity. It dilutes the meaning of what the true Nazi was, and the crimes they perpetrated. How many times have you heard a conservative today being described as a Nazi by left wing nut job? It's just not proper. We use that term way too loosely.

There are, of course, those still left alive (and new ones joining the ranks) who idealize the Nazi ideology in particular. I would separate them from those who are fed up with the current state of affairs and want to change immigration policy in particular. This latter group has the potential to become dangerous, but I wouldn't put them in the same category, at least not the majority, as "Nazis".

The problem is that there could be a large contingent of the more benign group, but it only takes a couple of infiltrators of the more radical side to taint the whole movement. Any time you hold the position of anti-immigration and securing your country's borders, you will attract the lunatics too.