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Link Posted: 9/8/2013 7:47:47 PM EDT
[#1]
What difference does it make anyway!!

Seriously though, anyone who doesn't think a gun registry already exists is a fool! Run a nics check, .gov has the info now. Buy gun items over the Internet, .gov has all your info! The sad part is connecting the dots is probably ridiculously easy for the NSA.

All of the NSA's doings came to light and what happened as a result? Not a fucking thing!
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 8:58:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Holy fucking shit.  At first I was pissed they were wiping their ass with the Constitution looking at all my shit but now that I know they could possibly delete it after looking and not finding anything I'm like fuck, where's a boot to lick.  That's for protecting me o mighty one.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:41:27 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:

That is not a comparable analogy.  You didn't actually read the entire document, huh?

The document states that they are not collecting and storing data that is not associated with a foreign target.  

Read it.  Accept it or dismiss it.  But this IS another Snowden document.  Do we believe the document or dismiss it?
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So Cincinnatus, do you think it is a problem that the NSA collects large volumes of data without a specific warrant then deletes only the data that is not foreign intelligence or evidence of a crime?

Would you accept it if a police department searched houses door to door so long as they promised to not worry about anything that wasn't a crime or foreign intelligence related?

That is not a comparable analogy.  You didn't actually read the entire document, huh?

The document states that they are not collecting and storing data that is not associated with a foreign target.  

Read it.  Accept it or dismiss it.  But this IS another Snowden document.  Do we believe the document or dismiss it?

You can't be this dense.

The only reason that you can say that they aren't collecting it is that you are using their definition of collection to be the moment when it is exploited rather than when it is ingested.
And I have no idea how you are saying that they don't store it when it has been pointed out over and over again to you that if it is not stored then there is nothing to delete therefor they are storing it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:04:49 AM EDT
[#4]
According to the document linked in the OP, these are only calls associated with Foreign Targets.  The document recognizes that a Foreign Target could order a pizza, and such data should be deleted.  

That is a far cry from EVERY domestic call being recorded and stored, as has been claimed.

I have to assume that you have not actually read the document.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:20:16 AM EDT
[#5]
You like to keep saying that not EVERY call, email, or text is monitored.  Well no shit.  Nothing technology related is 100%.  Even bunkered hosting services with their own backup generators will claim 99.99% up time.



So yeah you are right that 100% of calls, emails, and texts are monitored. The article clearly shows that they have the capability to monitor civilians.  They have in fact admitted to unconstitutional monitoring of thousands of people.  So the general idea of what people here are complaining about is valid and true.  You just want to put a semantics spin on it and make everyone else seem like they wear too much tin foil.  How much does the government pay you to do that?




You like to claim "no one's civil rights have been violated" and challenge people to name one case.  Well if I don't know that the NSA violated my rights then how am I supposed to create a legal case against them?  That is just another bullshit argument of yours that you throw out there to make everyone else look like tin foil wearers.  The NSA has in fact admitted to thousands of violations but they never released the names.  So we have thousands of admitted cases of civil rights violations and it is still impossible to name a case. That is what happens when the government gets too much power and holds all the cards.




Whether the government is monitoring 25% of all civilian communication or 99.99% of communication it is too much and people are pissed.  You can spin it all you want but most people know better than to believe you.




You also claim the government violates no rights when they force private businesses to turn over their private data.  You always side with the government and claim they have never done anything wrong even though they admit to violations.  Why don't you just come out and admit it that you are a pro big brother government statists that is willing to trade freedom for security.






Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:27:54 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
According to the document linked in the OP, these are only calls associated with Foreign Targets.  The document recognizes that a Foreign Target could order a pizza, and such data should be deleted.  

That is a far cry from EVERY domestic call being recorded and stored, as has been claimed.

I have to assume that you have not actually read the document.
View Quote


1)  If they are not monitored in real time (impossible) how are the targeting calls only associated Foreign Targets?

2) Does "Foreign Targets" include foreign nationals within the boundaries of CONUS?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:30:14 AM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


You like to claim "no one's civil rights have been violated" and challenge people to name one case....

You also claim the government violates no rights when they force private businesses to turn over their private data....


View Quote


Again, you are lying.  I have never said that, and yet you present it as a quote.

Quote me directly saying what you claim or stop lying.

Your relentless and repeated lying is dishonorable.  You have no integrity.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:32:33 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


1)  If they are not monitored in real time (impossible) how are the targeting calls only associated Foreign Targets?

2) Does "Foreign Targets" include foreign nationals within the boundaries of CONUS?
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Quoted:
According to the document linked in the OP, these are only calls associated with Foreign Targets.  The document recognizes that a Foreign Target could order a pizza, and such data should be deleted.  

That is a far cry from EVERY domestic call being recorded and stored, as has been claimed.

I have to assume that you have not actually read the document.


1)  If they are not monitored in real time (impossible) how are the targeting calls only associated Foreign Targets?

2) Does "Foreign Targets" include foreign nationals within the boundaries of CONUS?

Read the document for yourself.  That question is answered in detail.  The conversation will be far more fruitful if we all take a moment to read the document.  Don't you agree?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:32:45 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


Again, you are lying.  I have never said that, and yet you present it as a quote.

Quote me directly saying what you claim or stop lying.

Your relentless and repeated lying is dishonorable.  You have no integrity.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


You like to claim "no one's civil rights have been violated" and challenge people to name one case....

You also claim the government violates no rights when they force private businesses to turn over their private data....




Again, you are lying.  I have never said that, and yet you present it as a quote.

Quote me directly saying what you claim or stop lying.

Your relentless and repeated lying is dishonorable.  You have no integrity.


I read most of the document and it says, for all intents and purposes, that a foreigner has to be associated with the communication before that info can be "disseminated"  ................what does that mean in the context of "disseminated"?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:35:12 AM EDT
[#10]
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The attached document, its findings and conclusions are an interesting read.  The court determined that some activities being requested by the government were not in keeping with the 4th, and are therefore denied, and other parts of the request were found to be in keeping with the 4th, and therefore approved.  The document makes it very clear, that the targets are not Americans, however, if Americans are sending communications that are to or about (contain their real contact info; phone number, email, etc; not just mention of name) the Foreign target they can be targeted.  

Read it before opining on it.  It's only 85 pages, and the last 30 are where the meat of the issue is discussed.

Don't rely on the Washington Post's interpretation, or worse, some politician who didn't read it, either.

Read it yourself.
View Quote


I've learned in my short time here, that anything you're for, I can safely be against. You may as well be a government bot.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:37:40 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Read the document for yourself.  That question is answered in detail.  The conversation will be far more fruitful if we all take a moment to read the document.  Don't you agree?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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According to the document linked in the OP, these are only calls associated with Foreign Targets.  The document recognizes that a Foreign Target could order a pizza, and such data should be deleted.  

That is a far cry from EVERY domestic call being recorded and stored, as has been claimed.

I have to assume that you have not actually read the document.


1)  If they are not monitored in real time (impossible) how are the targeting calls only associated Foreign Targets?

2) Does "Foreign Targets" include foreign nationals within the boundaries of CONUS?

Read the document for yourself.  That question is answered in detail.  The conversation will be far more fruitful if we all take a moment to read the document.  Don't you agree?


I asked direct questions, as it turns out I do not currently have the time to read the document.  

You could have simply answered the questions.  Don't you agree?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:05:00 AM EDT
[#12]
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So you like having you phone calls listened to?
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not another one of these, yep, we are spying on Americans threads.

is the .gov joshing us or what?


So you like having you phone calls listened to?




there is a certain amount of sarcasm here.


and no I don't, although they wouln't get much info from me.

I think that if we look at all the communication that is being monitored, and the number of terrorist activities prevented, we would be mush better off putting our resources into different areas.

the nsa is there to watch over an increasingly upset citizenry.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:07:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Please read the document before commenting.

Cincinnatus is only stating what the FISA court authorizes.  He is not saying what Is or isn't happening with the data.  Only what is supposed to happen with the collected data dealing with the, keyword here, "Foreign Target."

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:10:00 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
Please read the document before commenting.

Cincinnatus is only stating what the FISA court authorizes.  He is not saying what Is or isn't happening with the data.  Only what is supposed to happen with the collected data dealing with the, keyword here, "Foreign Target."

View Quote


I understand but the court keeps using the word "disseminated" in its decision and that might mean the NSA has the bulk info collected but not given out to any LE organization, etc., unless it is related to a foreign target or they have a court order on a US citizen.

But they might have already collected the communications in some sort of "bulk" way?  I mean you "have to have something" before you can disseminate it.

In the end, the word "disseminated" kinda confuses me as to how much or what the NSA gathers to begin with.  

And to me, as a layman, therein lies the rub.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:33:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Don't worry. Those reports are all false. The US government does not spy on US citizens. The DNI told me so.

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 7:34:20 AM EDT
[#16]
From the opinion:

"The Court is troubled that the government's revelations regarding NSA's acquisition of Internet transactions mark the third instance in less than three years in which the government has disclosed a substantial misrepresentation regarding the scope of a major collection program." p.16 n.14.

"Contrary to the government's repeated assurances, NSA had been routinely running queries of the metadata using querying terms that did not meet the required standard for querying.  The Court concluded that this requirement had been 'so frequently and systemically violated that it can fairly be said that this critical element of the overall ... regime has never functioned effectively.'"  p.16 n.14.

"But, for the first time, the government has now advised the Court that the volume and nature of the information it has been collecting is fundamentally different from what the Court had been led to believe."  p.28.

"It appears that NSA could do substantially more to minimize the retention of information concerning United States persons that is unreleated to the foreign intelligence purpose of its upstream collection." p. 61.

"But by not fully exploring such options, the government has failed to demonstrate that it has struck a reasonable balance between its foreign intelligence needs and the requirement that information concerning United States persons be protected."  p.62.

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 9:29:38 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:


I asked direct questions, as it turns out I do not currently have the time to read the document.  

You could have simply answered the questions.  Don't you agree?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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According to the document linked in the OP, these are only calls associated with Foreign Targets.  The document recognizes that a Foreign Target could order a pizza, and such data should be deleted.  

That is a far cry from EVERY domestic call being recorded and stored, as has been claimed.

I have to assume that you have not actually read the document.


1)  If they are not monitored in real time (impossible) how are the targeting calls only associated Foreign Targets?

2) Does "Foreign Targets" include foreign nationals within the boundaries of CONUS?

Read the document for yourself.  That question is answered in detail.  The conversation will be far more fruitful if we all take a moment to read the document.  Don't you agree?


I asked direct questions, as it turns out I do not currently have the time to read the document.  

You could have simply answered the questions.  Don't you agree?


Yes, I agree.   Nevertheless, read the document for yourself.  Knowing is half the battle.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 9:33:16 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:

I've learned in my short time here, that anything you're for, I can safely be against. You may as well be a government bot.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The attached document, its findings and conclusions are an interesting read.  The court determined that some activities being requested by the government were not in keeping with the 4th, and are therefore denied, and other parts of the request were found to be in keeping with the 4th, and therefore approved.  The document makes it very clear, that the targets are not Americans, however, if Americans are sending communications that are to or about (contain their real contact info; phone number, email, etc; not just mention of name) the Foreign target they can be targeted.  

Read it before opining on it.  It's only 85 pages, and the last 30 are where the meat of the issue is discussed.

Don't rely on the Washington Post's interpretation, or worse, some politician who didn't read it, either.

Read it yourself.

I've learned in my short time here, that anything you're for, I can safely be against. You may as well be a government bot.


The only thing I am advocating here, is that you read the document before opining about it.  Otherwise, you are just commenting on the Washington Post's opinion on the document.

But you are against reading it, huh?   I guess you prefer to have the Washington Post tell you what to think.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 11:21:03 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
From the opinion:

"The Court is troubled that the government's revelations regarding NSA's acquisition of Internet transactions mark the third instance in less than three years in which the government has disclosed a substantial misrepresentation regarding the scope of a major collection program." p.16 n.14.

"Contrary to the government's repeated assurances, NSA had been routinely running queries of the metadata using querying terms that did not meet the required standard for querying.  The Court concluded that this requirement had been 'so frequently and systemically violated that it can fairly be said that this critical element of the overall ... regime has never functioned effectively.'"  p.16 n.14.

"But, for the first time, the government has now advised the Court that the volume and nature of the information it has been collecting is fundamentally different from what the Court had been led to believe."  p.28.

"It appears that NSA could do substantially more to minimize the retention of information concerning United States persons that is unreleated to the foreign intelligence purpose of its upstream collection." p. 61.

"But by not fully exploring such options, the government has failed to demonstrate that it has struck a reasonable balance between its foreign intelligence needs and the requirement that information concerning United States persons be protected."  p.62.

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Quoted for Cincinnatus.   Someone read the document.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 11:45:41 AM EDT
[#20]
People are responding to all the governmental infringements on privacy as if the government will always be truthful and do the right thing.  As if they would never use personal information for political gain, persecute their enemies, that is anyone who opposes them politically, speaks out against their policies, etc.  Even our own governments actions up to this point show the deceitful and illegal ways they will operate.  The times they have been exposed are only the tip of the iceberg.  The slippery slope to a very bad place has begun.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 12:19:47 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:



Quoted for Cincinnatus.   Someone read the document.
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Quoted:
From the opinion:

"The Court is troubled that the government's revelations regarding NSA's acquisition of Internet transactions mark the third instance in less than three years in which the government has disclosed a substantial misrepresentation regarding the scope of a major collection program." p.16 n.14.

"Contrary to the government's repeated assurances, NSA had been routinely running queries of the metadata using querying terms that did not meet the required standard for querying.  The Court concluded that this requirement had been 'so frequently and systemically violated that it can fairly be said that this critical element of the overall ... regime has never functioned effectively.'"  p.16 n.14.

"But, for the first time, the government has now advised the Court that the volume and nature of the information it has been collecting is fundamentally different from what the Court had been led to believe."  p.28.

"It appears that NSA could do substantially more to minimize the retention of information concerning United States persons that is unreleated to the foreign intelligence purpose of its upstream collection." p. 61.

"But by not fully exploring such options, the government has failed to demonstrate that it has struck a reasonable balance between its foreign intelligence needs and the requirement that information concerning United States persons be protected."  p.62.




Quoted for Cincinnatus.   Someone read the document.


If cutting and pasting is proof of reading...perhaps.  If so, that's a good thing.  I couldn't cut and paste ot, because it was a photocopy.  
Seeing the oversight in action is also a good thing.

Do you believe the findings of the court as described in the document?

Is this document factual and "proof" of something?   If so, is the entire document to be viewed as factual?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 1:10:44 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:

Is this document factual and "proof" of something?   If so, is the entire document to be viewed as factual?
View Quote


Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 1:14:01 PM EDT
[#23]
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Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  
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Is this document factual and "proof" of something?   If so, is the entire document to be viewed as factual?


Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  


Does the document ONLY provide evidence of wrongdoing?

What about the other things spelled out in the document?   Are they to be seen as equally credible in terms of their evidentiary value?

We certainly can't be selective, if we are to be honest.    
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 1:53:26 PM EDT
[#24]
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Does the document ONLY provide evidence of wrongdoing?

What about the other things spelled out in the document?   Are they to be seen as equally credible in terms of their evidentiary value?

We certainly can't be selective, if we are to be honest.    
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Is this document factual and "proof" of something?   If so, is the entire document to be viewed as factual?


Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  


Does the document ONLY provide evidence of wrongdoing?

What about the other things spelled out in the document?   Are they to be seen as equally credible in terms of their evidentiary value?

We certainly can't be selective, if we are to be honest.    

I don't care about what percentage of what they were doing was wrongdoing and what percent was perfectly compliant.
What I care about is that this document that the NSA provided includes information on wrongdoing and yet I know of nobody that has gone to jail for it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 2:06:54 PM EDT
[#25]
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I don't care about what percentage of what they were doing was wrongdoing and what percent was perfectly compliant.
What I care about is that this document that the NSA provided includes information on wrongdoing and yet I know of nobody that has gone to jail for it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Is this document factual and "proof" of something?   If so, is the entire document to be viewed as factual?


Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  


Does the document ONLY provide evidence of wrongdoing?

What about the other things spelled out in the document?   Are they to be seen as equally credible in terms of their evidentiary value?

We certainly can't be selective, if we are to be honest.    

I don't care about what percentage of what they were doing was wrongdoing and what percent was perfectly compliant.
What I care about is that this document that the NSA provided includes information on wrongdoing and yet I know of nobody that has gone to jail for it.


I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 2:13:04 PM EDT
[#26]
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I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?
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Proof?   By itself, no.

More evidence of probable wrong doing by a government agency?   Yes.

I think we have already crossed the threshold of preponderance of the evidence.   Yet to be seen if we get to beyond a reasonable doubt.  


Does the document ONLY provide evidence of wrongdoing?

What about the other things spelled out in the document?   Are they to be seen as equally credible in terms of their evidentiary value?

We certainly can't be selective, if we are to be honest.    

I don't care about what percentage of what they were doing was wrongdoing and what percent was perfectly compliant.
What I care about is that this document that the NSA provided includes information on wrongdoing and yet I know of nobody that has gone to jail for it.


I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?


Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the NSA admits they believe they have the authority to collect data from people within three hops of a targeted person?

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hops-nsa-gets-millions-phone-records-204851967.html


Testimony before Congress on Wednesday showed how easy it is for Americans with no connection to terrorism to unwittingly have their calling patterns analyzed by the government.

It hinges on what's known as "hop" or "chain" analysis. When the NSA identifies a suspect, it can look not just at his phone records, but also the records of everyone he calls, everyone who calls those people and everyone who calls those people.

If the average person called 40 unique people, three-hop analysis would allow the government to mine the records of 2.5 million Americans when investigating one suspected terrorist.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 2:18:13 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:


Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the NSA admits they believe they have the authority to collect data from people within three hops of a targeted person?

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hops-nsa-gets-millions-phone-records-204851967.html
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I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?


Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the NSA admits they believe they have the authority to collect data from people within three hops of a targeted person?

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hops-nsa-gets-millions-phone-records-204851967.html


How exactly have I ignored it?  I have spoken specifically of that within the past day, in this thread and others.  

I acknowledge all primary sources of information (i.e.: words of Snowden about Snowden, and the documents he has presented).   I only ignore politicians' and journalists' interpretations.


Link Posted: 9/9/2013 2:25:49 PM EDT
[#28]
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Don't forget the three hops rule.  You don't have to be in direct contact with anyone to be swept up.
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The attached document, its findings and conclusions are an interesting read.  The court determined that some activities being requested by the government were not in keeping with the 4th, and are therefore denied, and other parts of the request were found to be in keeping with the 4th, and therefore approved.  The document makes it very clear, that the targets are not Americans, however, if Americans are sending communications that are to or about (contain their real contact info; phone number, email, etc; not just mention of name) the Foreign target they can be targeted.  

Read it before opining on it.  It's only 85 pages, and the last 30 are where the meat of the issue is discussed.

Don't rely on the Washington Post's interpretation, or worse, some politician who didn't read it, either.

Read it yourself.


I will read it later tonight or tomorrow.  

Question to the part in red above:  Per the document, can the American's be targeted without a warrant?  

According to the document, no.   Not targeted.  However, if they are in contact or within three hops with the Foreign target, that's a different story.

Don't forget the three hops rule.  You don't have to be in direct contact with anyone to be swept up.


do you know, on average, you're 6 people away from contacting anyone on the planet?
3 hops is a lot.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 2:45:40 PM EDT
[#29]
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How exactly have I ignored it?  I have spoken specifically of that within the past day, in this thread and others.  

I acknowledge all primary sources of information (i.e.: words of Snowden about Snowden, and the documents he has presented).   I only ignore politicians' and journalists' interpretations.


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I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?


Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the NSA admits they believe they have the authority to collect data from people within three hops of a targeted person?

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hops-nsa-gets-millions-phone-records-204851967.html


How exactly have I ignored it?  I have spoken specifically of that within the past day, in this thread and others.  

I acknowledge all primary sources of information (i.e.: words of Snowden about Snowden, and the documents he has presented).   I only ignore politicians' and journalists' interpretations.



So you don't deny the three hop rule, but you don't see how the three hop rule allows them to search the data of Americans?
You talk about the NSA being allowed to target people who talk about foreign targets, but don't see how Americans might talk about foreign targets?

I'm done with you. You claim to be about the truth, but it is obvious to all those who read your words that you don't care about the truth. You seem to only care about minimizing the crimes committed by the NSA.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:12:32 PM EDT
[#30]
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So you don't deny the three hop rule, but you don't see how the three hop rule allows them to search the data of Americans?
You talk about the NSA being allowed to target people who talk about foreign targets, but don't see how Americans might talk about foreign targets?
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I care about illuminating the entire truth of the issue, and not covering anything up, or selectively ignoring facts that go against my preconceived notions.

How about you?

Your thread title states that the "NSA is allowed to search for data on Americans."  Do you base that on the article and the document linked in your OP?  If so, could you quote the document?  From what I read, the only "Americans" that the NSA was ALLOWED to search were those Americans who were directly tied to Foreign Agents or Foreign Terrorists?  Did you read something counter to this?


Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the NSA admits they believe they have the authority to collect data from people within three hops of a targeted person?

http://news.yahoo.com/3-hops-nsa-gets-millions-phone-records-204851967.html


How exactly have I ignored it?  I have spoken specifically of that within the past day, in this thread and others.  

I acknowledge all primary sources of information (i.e.: words of Snowden about Snowden, and the documents he has presented).   I only ignore politicians' and journalists' interpretations.



So you don't deny the three hop rule, but you don't see how the three hop rule allows them to search the data of Americans?
You talk about the NSA being allowed to target people who talk about foreign targets, but don't see how Americans might talk about foreign targets?
The three hop rule is about direct, and one and two degree ties to targeted Foreign Agents and Foreign Terrorists.  IF those ties turn out to be superficial, that information on the US Person must be deleted.  According to YOUR source.  I am not condoning the practice, just describing it as it exists according to YOUR source.


I'm done with you. You claim to be about the truth, but it is obvious to all those who read your words that you don't care about the truth. You seem to only care about minimizing the crimes committed by the NSA.




You posted a thread about a document, and you OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to read it.   Why not?  Don't you think this stuff is important?  ADHD?

The content of the document contradicts many things that you say.  But again, you would not know this, because you haven't bothered to read it.

You instead rely upon the interpretation provided to you by journalists from the Washington Post and Politicians.  Will you do this when the issue is RKBA?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:17:57 PM EDT
[#31]
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The three hop rule is about direct, and one and two degree ties to targeted Foreign Agents and Foreign Terrorists.  IF those ties turn out to be superficial, that information on the US Person must be deleted.  According to YOUR source.  I am not condoning the practice, just describing it as it exists according to YOUR source.
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The three hop rule is about direct, and one and two degree ties to targeted Foreign Agents and Foreign Terrorists.  IF those ties turn out to be superficial, that information on the US Person must be deleted.  According to YOUR source.  I am not condoning the practice, just describing it as it exists according to YOUR source.

And some of those one and two degree people might be Americans.....right?

Quoted:

You posted a thread about a document, and you OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to read it.   Why not?  Don't you think this stuff is important?  ADHD?

The content of the document contradicts many things that you say.  But again, you would not know this, because you haven't bothered to read it.

You instead rely upon the interpretation provided to you by journalists from the Washington Post and Politicians.  Will you do this when the issue is RKBA?

I did read the document. I posted quotes from the document. You glossed over that so that you can keep talking about me not reading the document since you find that easier.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:38:55 PM EDT
[#32]
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And some of those one and two degree people might be Americans.....right?
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The three hop rule is about direct, and one and two degree ties to targeted Foreign Agents and Foreign Terrorists.  IF those ties turn out to be superficial, that information on the US Person must be deleted.  According to YOUR source.  I am not condoning the practice, just describing it as it exists according to YOUR source.

And some of those one and two degree people might be Americans.....right?
Americans associated with a Foreign Agent or Foreign Terrorist, yes.


Quoted:

You posted a thread about a document, and you OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to read it.   Why not?  Don't you think this stuff is important?  ADHD?

The content of the document contradicts many things that you say.  But again, you would not know this, because you haven't bothered to read it.

You instead rely upon the interpretation provided to you by journalists from the Washington Post and Politicians.  Will you do this when the issue is RKBA?

I did read the document. I posted quotes from the document. You glossed over that so that you can keep talking about me not reading the document since you find that easier.


No you didn't.  The ignorance of the document that you displayed can only be the result of not having read the entire document.

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:40:02 PM EDT
[#33]
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Americans associated with a Foreign Agent or Foreign Terrorist, yes.
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Americans associated with a Foreign Agent or Foreign Terrorist, yes.

Then the subject line is correct.

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No you didn't.  The ignorance of the document that you displayed can only be the result of not having read the entire document.


Keep telling yourself that Agent.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:43:26 PM EDT
[#34]
everyone is missing the point, they don't collect & store phone calls & e-mails, internet history etc.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:44:54 PM EDT
[#35]
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Answer one question for me....could one of the one or two hop people be an American?
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The three hop rule is about direct, and one and two degree ties to targeted Foreign Agents and Foreign Terrorists.  IF those ties turn out to be superficial, that information on the US Person must be deleted.  According to YOUR source.  I am not condoning the practice, just describing it as it exists according to YOUR source.

And some of those one and two degree people might be Americans.....right?

Quoted:

You posted a thread about a document, and you OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to read it.   Why not?  Don't you think this stuff is important?  ADHD?

The content of the document contradicts many things that you say.  But again, you would not know this, because you haven't bothered to read it.

You instead rely upon the interpretation provided to you by journalists from the Washington Post and Politicians.  Will you do this when the issue is RKBA?

I did read the document. I posted quotes from the document. You glossed over that so that you can keep talking about me not reading the document since you find that easier.


No you didn't.  The ignorance of the document that you displayed can only be the result of not having read the entire document.


Answer one question for me....could one of the one or two hop people be an American?


Yes. That much should be 100% obvious.

Then of course we rely on said "trusted" .gov/.mil folks to exercise due diligence and stop if the person is unafilliated with the target of the investigation.

Although it's pretty fucking hard to trust due diligence out of an organization that doesn't hold intentional lawbreakers accountable.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but also think its purpose is nessesary. Just not in its current manifestation.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:47:14 PM EDT
[#36]
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Then the subject line is correct.
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Americans associated with a Foreign Agent or Foreign Terrorist, yes.

Then the subject line is correct.
No it is not.  The document CLEARLY states that they are NOT "searching for data on Americans," but searching for data on the targeted Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  You would know that, had you actually read the document.


Quoted:
No you didn't.  The ignorance of the document that you displayed can only be the result of not having read the entire document.


Keep telling yourself that Agent.


You and I both know it's true.  Either you didn't read it, couldn't understand it, or you read it and you're obfuscating.  
You seem like a bright enough fellow, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just didn't read it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 3:56:10 PM EDT
[#37]
So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:02:18 PM EDT
[#38]
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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.
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They're not targeting Americans. They're targeting a terrorist or an enemy operation. This may involve us persons, witting or unwittingly.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:03:45 PM EDT
[#39]
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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.
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They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  


Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:07:13 PM EDT
[#40]
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No, when you send Mohammed a PM on jihadisanon.net, they will look to see what if any connection you could have. Then they move on.
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Senior administration officials disagree. “If we’re validly targeting foreigners and we happen to collect communications of Americans, we don’t have to close our eyes to that,” Litt said. “I’m not aware of other situations where once we have lawfully collected information, we have to go back and get a warrant to look at the information we’ve already collected.”



So I guess this means that if I went to the same grocery store as Muhammad just 1 time. The NSA has the "right" to collect all of my financial data given to them by a secret surveillance court.



No, when you send Mohammed a PM on jihadisanon.net, they will look to see what if any connection you could have. Then they move on.



And if you believe that I've got a bridge I can sell you on the cheap.

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:08:27 PM EDT
[#41]
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They're not targeting Americans. They're targeting a love interests terrorist or an enemy operation. This may involve us persons, witting or unwittingly.
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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.


They're not targeting Americans. They're targeting a love interests terrorist or an enemy operation. This may involve us persons, witting or unwittingly.



Fixed it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:10:11 PM EDT
[#42]
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They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  


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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.


They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  



How would anyone know if the US person is or is not operationally tied to the foreign target unless they monitored them?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:11:20 PM EDT
[#43]
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And if you believe that I've got a bridge I can sell you on the cheap.

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Senior administration officials disagree. “If we’re validly targeting foreigners and we happen to collect communications of Americans, we don’t have to close our eyes to that,” Litt said. “I’m not aware of other situations where once we have lawfully collected information, we have to go back and get a warrant to look at the information we’ve already collected.”



So I guess this means that if I went to the same grocery store as Muhammad just 1 time. The NSA has the "right" to collect all of my financial data given to them by a secret surveillance court.



No, when you send Mohammed a PM on jihadisanon.net, they will look to see what if any connection you could have. Then they move on.



And if you believe that I've got a bridge I can sell you on the cheap.



Because they would rather abandon their tracking of the Targeted Foreign Terrorist, break the law and track a person who has nothing to do with their operation?   And everyone involved in this operation is in on it?  No shit?

Why?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:14:20 PM EDT
[#44]
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How would anyone know if the US person is or is not operationally tied to the foreign target unless they monitored them?
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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.


They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  



How would anyone know if the US person is or is not operationally tied to the foreign target unless they monitored them?


Based on the content of the call.  I hate to break it to you, but if a Foreign Terrorist calls you from Yemen, you are going to be part of an investigation targeting THAT terrorist.  How would they know whether or not you are also a Foreign Terrorist?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:14:50 PM EDT
[#45]
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everyone is missing the point, they don't collect & store phone calls & e-mails, internet history etc.
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Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:18:44 PM EDT
[#46]
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They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  


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So they can target people that are one or two hops...that might be americans....but in your mind they aren't targeting Americans.

I've realized that you aren't dumb...you are sick.


They are not targeting them.  The "Target" is the Foreign Agent/Terrorist.  The "hops" are to unknown individuals who may or may not be US Persons (how would they know?) .  If it is determined that the individuals are US Persons and NOT operationally tied to the Foreign Target, their identities must be deleted.

You would know this if you had actually read the document you claim to have read.  



And what are they doing with that hop's data to figure out if they are operationally attached?  Do they maybe search through their data?
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:20:47 PM EDT
[#47]
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Because they would rather abandon their tracking of the Targeted Foreign Terrorist, break the law and track a person who has nothing to do with their operation?   And everyone involved in this operation is in on it?  No shit?

Why?
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I don't know. Why don't you ask them?
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-sometimes-spy-on-love-interests/
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:22:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Profile on the head of the NSA, General Alexander, here.

"Alexander tended to be a bit of a cowboy: 'Let's not worry about the law. Let's just figure out how to get the job done,'" says a former intelligence official who has worked with both men. "That caused General Hayden some heartburn."

The heartburn first flared up not long after the 2001 terrorist attacks. Alexander was the general in charge of the Army's Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. He began insisting that the NSA give him raw, unanalyzed data about suspected terrorists from the agency's massive digital cache, according to three former intelligence officials. Alexander had been building advanced data-mining software and analytic tools, and now he wanted to run them against the NSA's intelligence caches to try to find terrorists who were in the United States or planning attacks on the homeland.

By law, the NSA had to scrub intercepted communications of most references to U.S. citizens before those communications can be shared with other agencies. But Alexander wanted the NSA "to bend the pipe towards him," says one of the former officials, so that he could siphon off metadata, the digital records of phone calls and email traffic that can be used to map out a terrorist organization based on its members' communications patterns.

"Keith wanted his hands on the raw data. And he bridled at the fact that NSA didn't want to release the information until it was properly reviewed and in a report," says a former national security official. "He felt that from a tactical point of view, that was often too late to be useful."

Hayden thought Alexander was out of bounds. INSCOM was supposed to provide battlefield intelligence for troops and special operations forces overseas, not use raw intelligence to find terrorists within U.S. borders. But Alexander had a more expansive view of what military intelligence agencies could do under the law.

"He said at one point that a lot of things aren't clearly legal, but that doesn't make them illegal," says a former military intelligence officer who served under Alexander at INSCOM.
...
But those who've worked closely with Alexander say he has become blinded by the power of technology. "He believes they have enough technical safeguards in place at the NSA to protect civil liberties and perform their mission," the former administration official says. "They do have a very robust capability -- probably better than any other agency. But he doesn't get that this power can still be abused. Americans want introspection. Transparency is a good thing. He doesn't understand that. In his mind it's 'You should trust me, and in exchange, I give you protection.'"
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Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:24:52 PM EDT
[#49]


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everyone is missing the point, they don't collect & store phone calls & e-mails, internet history etc.


It is funny isn't it.

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 4:28:08 PM EDT
[#50]
And yet, this takes a back seat to the Miley Cyrus meltdown, which is probably the hottest thread on ARFCOM at the moment.
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