Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity?

Not quite a beheading, a little more up to date and method appropriate to this site.

He played trumpet and I played trombone in the same Jr. High and High School Band.

Take your choice of descriptions.

www.jameskopp.com/

www.plannedparenthood.org/violence/kopp_chron.html

Not being judgemental, just realistic,  many times have we seen on this site, people advocating that what he did was honorable and just?  

Any time anybody can claim religious or quasi-religious justification for their actions , they are capable of actions that others may claim are terroristic and some may claim are justified. PETA, ECO-Terrorists, KKK, Panthers, SLA, etc etc etc.

If you all refuse to beleve when a muslim says that he renounces terror and that a true muslim does not commit acts of terror against innocents why should people beleve you when you claim these Christian men who comitted acts of terror are not "real" Christians?

Who is the custodian of what is and is not a "real" Christian? If they claim they are killing to protect Christian values in America from the goverment, or Jews, or abortionists why should people NOT take them at face value.

Does, "Do good to your enemies" ring a bell, how about "love your neighbor as your self", or "Do good to them that curse you." Do ya' kind of get it  now pard. A REAL Christian is about Love and peace not war and killing. "You will know them by their fruits.".

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

Yes we did, AFTER we had been attacked by the muslims and had innumerable christians slaughtered by them. We did not start the Crusades, we just tried to finish them

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Go read your fucking history.  Some clown always brings this up and they don't have a fucking clue. THEY didn't do a damn thing except in response to what the Muslims started.   Besides, WE didn't do a fucking thing because WE weren't born yet. Ancient fucking history, irrelevant to current events. I am amazed at the number of Islam defenders on this board. Personally, I am not defending fundamentalist of any faith, but it sure seems that at just about every trouble spot in the world right now, Muslims are involved. Looks like we have found another subject that LARRYG knows nothing about and uses to start shit with me. Isn't the courage some people find in a internet forums anoymity funny? Cute.  You are clueless and you say I know nothing.  Right.  You have said that several times and the facts have yet to bear you out. Little ball-less jerk questioning someone's courage.  Again, right.  If I ever meet you, I will say the same thing.

Trust me, I would love to have a face to face CONVERSATION .  Oh by the way, I don't think you have a clue what we are talking about. If you knew anything about the history of the crusades you would know that both sides comitted terrible crimes against each other. All I see is a keyboard tough guy. All becuase you know your safely behind the anoymity an internet forum provides.  If we were in a restraunt having this conversation would you behave like such an ass? I doubt it, becuase you know their would be a price to pay. Plenty of posts piss me off, but I try to stay polite becuase its an internet forum. No point in getting mad, becuase theirs nothing you can really do about it. So, why bother? You on the other hand take advantage of that fact to live out your fantasy of being important and a badass. All the while knowing you are perfectly safe. Sad, very sad indeed.

Quoted: Quoted: I checked the list and sure enough, I was right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, while being a pain in the ass at times, have never cut anyones head off. Maybe not but I certainly won't forget Jerry's calling personally infecting people with live HIV. AIDs "God's Revenge to the Unholy." What an idiot I thought at the time, like a virus has a mind and is moral.  With his help, the disease was put on a back burner at a time when it could have been stopped in this country.  Now we have organizations to help the children with AIDs.   DUH? Tj

There. I fixed it so you can legitimately compare Jerry Falwell (who is a humanoid dildo of the first order) with religiously-motivated Islamic murderers. You're welcome.

Quoted: If you all refuse to beleve when a muslim says that he renounces terror and that a true muslim does not commit acts of terror against innocents why should people beleve you when you claim these Christian men who comitted acts of terror are not "real" Christians? Who is the custodian of what is and is not a "real" Christian? .

Why, that's a slam dunk.  Jesus is the "Custodian" of "what is and is not a "real" Christian".

And He said that murderers and the like are not Christians.  Simple as that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I checked the list and sure enough, I was right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, while being a pain in the ass at times, have never cut anyones head off. Maybe not but I certainly won't forget Jerry's calling AIDs "God's Revenge to the Unholy." What an idiot I thought at the time, like a virus has a mind and is moral.  With his help, the disease was put on a back burner at a time when it could have been stopped in this country.  Now we have organizations to help the children with AIDs.   DUH? Tj Jeepers, TJ! Do you believe that President Reagan was personally responsible for the spread of AIDS, as well? That sounds too DU, to me, my brother! Eric The(Sensible)Hun

LOL no pal I blame public opinion more than anything and public opinion was heavily swayed by this misconception including our President.  He after all was elected to represent us and not be our microbiologist.  

Tj

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I checked the list and sure enough, I was right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, while being a pain in the ass at times, have never cut anyones head off. Maybe not but I certainly won't forget Jerry's calling personally infecting people with live HIV. AIDs "God's Revenge to the Unholy." What an idiot I thought at the time, like a virus has a mind and is moral.  With his help, the disease was put on a back burner at a time when it could have been stopped in this country.  Now we have organizations to help the children with AIDs.   DUH? Tj There. I fixed it so you can legitimately compare Jerry Falwell (who is a humanoid dildo of the first order) with religiously-motivated Islamic murderers. You're welcome.

Sorry, I'm afraid you are confusiing Jimmy Swaggart with Jerry Falwell.

Sorry couldn't resist!

I really have a problem with television minstries, not they aren't good people necessarily for I'm sure some are, my problem lies with most of their income deriving from retired folks living on fixed incomes.

One of my favorite cartoons on the topic shows a little ole lady eating dog food in a house with no windows and full of rats signing over her social security check.

"Dear Jerry, I know you will need this more than I will."

Tj

Quoted: If you all refuse to beleve when a muslim says that he renounces terror and that a true muslim does not commit acts of terror against innocents why should people beleve you when you claim these Christian men who comitted acts of terror are not "real" Christians? Who is the custodian of what is and is not a "real" Christian? If they claim they are killing to protect Christian values in America from the goverment, or Jews, or abortionists why should people NOT take them at face value.

I'd like to pipe in here as well with a little more simple answer.

The Koran specifically tells the Muslim to seek revenge on the infidel thus doing so is following the relgion or so the terrorist beleives.

No where does Christ tell us to kill our enemies but love them instead thus to do otherwise is not Christian.

Simple.

Tj

Quoted: Quoted: If you all refuse to beleve when a muslim says that he renounces terror and that a true muslim does not commit acts of terror against innocents why should people beleve you when you claim these Christian men who comitted acts of terror are not "real" Christians? Who is the custodian of what is and is not a "real" Christian? . Why, that's a slam dunk.  Jesus is the "Custodian" of "what is and is not a "real" Christian". And He said that murderers and the like are not Christians.  Simple as that.

That is the same thing that Muslims say about their Fundimentalists too.

See here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=243203

Hugh Hewitt asked the big question tonight: of the world’s billion-plus Muslims, how many support the butchers who hacked the head off the Pennsylvania contractor? One percent? Ten? Either number stands for a lot of people. I was walking Jasper Dog while listening to the show, and a few thoughts popped up. There are five reactions one could have to such acts, committed by a coreligionist: Endorsement, Indifference, Denial, Rejection, Participation. Denial: I’m sure you’ve heard this before: “Islam is a religion of peace.” But those people committed horrible violence in the name of Islam. “Then they are not true Muslims. No Muslim could do this.” Rinse, repeat. It’s the theological equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and humming loudly. Rejection: This would be speaking out singly or in concert with fellow Muslims, denouncing the acts without making the entire peroration an elaborate plinth on which to place the word “BUT.” Indifference: I’m a Muslim in Indonesia. I work in a bank. I’m not particularly devout. I like a beer on a hot day, and you know what? They’re all hot days. Some guys slit someone’s throat in Iraq. I think that’s wrong and I think that’s stupid. And what do you expect me to do about it? Endorsement: I’m not sure what constitutes endorsement – silent pleasure among others not of the faith, chortling delight when you’re with friends. Or perhaps nothing more than thanking Allah when you hear certain things have been done in Allah’s name, and never acting or speaking a way that supports the jihadist’s cause. Participation. It’s obvious what this means. Here’s the crux: of these five aspects, four assist the jihadists in one form or another, and the fifth – Rejection – all too often takes a passive form. Hugh had a Somali Muslim on his show from Minneapolis; they spoke for almost 40 minutes, and the guy’s heart was in the right place. He sounded like a decent fellow. He said the Imam of his mosque regularly preached against the nutball Islamists. One hundred million more like him, please. But where are the rallies and marches outside the Saudi embassies demanding an end to funding extremism?

Quoted: Sorry, I'm afraid you are confusiing Jimmy Swaggart with Jerry Falwell. Sorry couldn't resist! I really have a problem with television minstries, not they aren't good people necessarily for I'm sure some are, my problem lies with most of their income deriving from retired folks living on fixed incomes. One of my favorite cartoons on the topic shows a little ole lady eating dog food in a house with no windows and full of rats signing over her social security check. "Dear Jerry, I know you will need this more than I will." Tj

IMO, damned few are good people. In general, televangelists are to preachers as carnies are to laborers.

Quoted: That is the same thing that Muslims say about their Fundimentalists too.

Sorry, gotta call . Look at the Muslim press sometime. Read the mainstream, official Islamic commentary on the last (or the next) Muslim murder in Israel. Go google "9-11" and refresh your recollection with the pictures of damnable subhuman filth dancing in the streets passing out candy when news of the NYC attacks reached the Muslim world. There's your Muslim man-in-the-street. Do that, and come back and explain that "that is the same thing that Muslims say about their Fundimentalists too."

Quoted: Trust me, I would love to have a face to face CONVERSATION .  Oh by the way, I don't think you have a clue what we are talking about. If you knew anything about the history of the crusades you would know that both sides comitted terrible crimes against each other. All I see is a keyboard tough guy. All becuase you know your safely behind the anoymity an internet forum provides.  If we were in a restraunt having this conversation would you behave like such an ass? I doubt it, becuase you know their would be a price to pay. Plenty of posts piss me off, but I try to stay polite becuase its an internet forum. No point in getting mad, becuase theirs nothing you can really do about it. So, why bother? You on the other hand take advantage of that fact to live out your fantasy of being important and a badass. All the while knowing you are perfectly safe. Sad, very sad indeed.

Hey, you better not be talking shit about my bestest buddy in the whole wide world!

Quoted: Quoted: You want to know what my problem is with fundamentalists? I was raised in a strict pentecostal church. This wasn't some tiny backwoods church either, it was a large group of churches across the nation with millions of dollars in assets. The things I witnessed as a kid growing up... suffice it to say that I should write a book. As I got older, I decided to search for the 'truth'. I found that most denominations are filled with the same kinds of stories. The net result of this was a skeptical attitude towards anyone coming at me reeking of  'Christian' values. I learned that it was mostly about control. I have no interest in such a thing and will fight to the death to defend myself against extremists of any flavor.... including those who serve up a weekly helping of the Body of Christ. To answer directly, yes. From the things that I have witnessed personally, I believe that 'Christians' are as equally capable of such barbarism as what we witnessed from Islam this week. All this sounds like some very disturbing personal problems that you have there, BenDover, but you really shouldn't let your childhood experiences such as they may be interfere with making rational decisions as an adult! And coming to conclusions that are supported by reason and not emotion. Eric The(Adult)Hun

Sorry ETH... I am not the disturbed one. Nice to see you in perfect, Christian judgemental form pronouncing that which is and isn't on your extremely limited scope of knowledge about what I have and haven't witnessed as a child AND as an adult at the hands of similar 'Christians'.

The conclusion that I come to is beware of snake oil salesmen coming to you with a cure all ointment bearing the label of their favorite deity. They are the ones who would cover up all manner of crime to protect their favorite preacher or priest. Entire congregations of 'Christians' would put victims of sexual abuse on display in front of a Sunday service to pronounce them demonically possessed (even though a judge later pronounced the perpetrating ministers quite guilty).

I've had enough of the 'Christian' spirit to last me several lifetimes.

Christ is nowhere near American cults churches. The very concept of a church building itself isn't even biblical in the terms of a New Testament church. Bilking congregations out of millions of dollars to build beautiful temples and amass fortunes in assets available to use by a select few or with their express permission is oh, so inspired of New Testament teaching now isn't it.

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

If you consider the Roman Catholic Church "Christian". Planerench out.

Quoted: Quoted: I pulled this off one of the history sites: So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands. Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years. With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East. That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense. Amen! Between 700 AD and 1000 AD, Christendom lost 70% of its lands to the sword of Islam, including Egypt and Syria. The Crusades were merely an attempt by Christendom to reclaim its losts lands! Tell me, what was that Moorish Army doing at Tours, France, in 732 AD, when it gots its ass handed to it by Charles Martel? And why were the Turks at the Gates of Vienna in Central Europe, 3 times within 200 years? Eric The(Historical)Hun

You might find "A History of Warfare" by John Keegan interesting reading re this subject.

CW

Actually, the attack by the Christians was in response to a raid by Muslims which killed many people. They did not strike first-they held themselves in reign until they were attacked.

The first and second crusades were the most successful and the best. They drove Saladin out of Jerusalem, and they maintained there Morality. However, following crusades were nothing more than mercenary/highway robbery outings. They did little in the way of pushing Saladin out of Jerusalem.

Ben

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

The crusades were a direct result of a holy war declared by the muslims.  The christians were merely defending or trying to regain their territory.  The muslims perpetrated crimes much more terrible than the christians during that time period.  After learning a little about that time in history, I don't feel bad that the christians were able to stand up against the muslims.  It would have been the turning point for the known world at that time and would have possibly affected our world today.  

A good fundamentalist never lets religion get in his way !

The KKK is was a CHRISTIAN based / founded organization that pretty much did everything short of sawing heads off with a dull knife. If the thought of it they may have given it a try.

Personally anyone who believes in that nonsense called creationist science is quite capable of being convinced to to saw off a head of someone deemed non human by they're controllers of the Koresh / Jimmy Jones ilk ...

Alot of christian hypocrisy in this thread.

Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity.

Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity.

What are you talking about?

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

In reality the crusades had about as much to do with Christianity as being crazy has to do with owning a gun.

The Roman catholic church basically stole large sums of money from the common people to pay for their wars of conquest for lands and riches, all the while preaching at them sermon after sermon about how they were supposed to murder the muslim infidels and how their enemies werent even human ect ect. going totally against what Jesus taught.

They even had a scam going for awhile IIRC it was called "indulgences" that if you had a relative or friend that was a lost soul in hell that "as soon as the coin tinkles in the box, their soul will fly up to heaven.!"

And while every crusader wore a cross and the wars were done in the name of Christ (unrightfully so i might add) I would seriously doubt that all of the crusaders were Christians at all.
This is evidenced later on during the 30 years war between protestant Christianity and Roman catholic Christians when soldiers on both sides often butchered, raped & pillaged people of their own "faith" while those people screamed their innocence.

 A lot of evil people throughout history have claimed to be doing one thing or another "by the will of God" Some of them really thought they were but most are just blatant liars. Once again we cannot Judge the whole by the actions of a few.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. In reality the crusades had about as much to do with Christianity as being crazy has to do with owning a gun. The Roman catholic church basically stole large sums of money from the common people to pay for their wars of conquest for lands and riches, all the while preaching at them sermon after sermon about how they were supposed to murder the muslim infidels and how their enemies werent even human ect ect. going totally against what Jesus taught. They even had a scam going for awhile IIRC it was called "indulgences" that if you had a relative or friend that was a lost soul in hell that "as soon as the coin tinkles in the box, their soul will fly up to heaven.!" And while every crusader wore a cross and the wars were done in the name of Christ (unrightfully so i might add) I would seriously doubt that all of the crusaders were Christians at all. This is evidenced later on during the 30 years war between protestant Christianity and Roman catholic Christians when soldiers on both sides often butchered, raped & pillaged people of their own "faith" while those people screamed their innocence.  A lot of evil people throughout history have claimed to be doing one thing or another "by the will of God" Some of them really thought they were but most are just blatant liars. Once again we cannot Judge the whole by the actions of a few.

1. Where, geographically, did Islam originate?

2. How did it spread beyond the area of its origin?

3. How did Islam first come to predominate in the Holy Land?

4. How, and for what purpose did Islamic persons reach the gates of Vienna? How many times did they do so?

5. How did Islam come to the Iberian peninsula?

6. Explain the motives behind and purpose behind the Crusades. [Hint: except perhaps incidentally, it did not involve displacement of indigenous, peace-loving Muslim people.]

7. What use does Islamic scripture (including Haddithic writings) suggest for the sword? Other than preservation of civil order (Paul's Letter to the Romans) and individual self-defense (Luke 22:36) what use of the sword is expressly approved for Christians?

Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. (snip)

Two words: Spanish Inquistion.......

The crusades all in all were probably a good thing. But some of the ways that certain persons involved went about things was totally wrong. The Muslims had been invading for quite some time with the effort of controlling the world. While the crusades had alot to do with defense and regaining lost lands i still think it had very little to do with Christianity.

I am pretty far to the right and I would never saw a mans head off w/ a knife.

Quoted: Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity. What are you talking about?

I have heard several interviews with this lady.  She is very professional and has thoroughly documented her claims.  This stuff has been simmering for a while now and it looks like it is coming to the mainstream.

www.jaynadavis.com

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. In reality the crusades had about as much to do with Christianity as being crazy has to do with owning a gun. The Roman catholic church basically stole large sums of money from the common people to pay for their wars of conquest for lands and riches, all the while preaching at them sermon after sermon about how they were supposed to murder the muslim infidels and how their enemies werent even human ect ect. going totally against what Jesus taught. They even had a scam going for awhile IIRC it was called "indulgences" that if you had a relative or friend that was a lost soul in hell that "as soon as the coin tinkles in the box, their soul will fly up to heaven.!" And while every crusader wore a cross and the wars were done in the name of Christ (unrightfully so i might add) I would seriously doubt that all of the crusaders were Christians at all. This is evidenced later on during the 30 years war between protestant Christianity and Roman catholic Christians when soldiers on both sides often butchered, raped & pillaged people of their own "faith" while those people screamed their innocence.  A lot of evil people throughout history have claimed to be doing one thing or another "by the will of God" Some of them really thought they were but most are just blatant liars. Once again we cannot Judge the whole by the actions of a few. 1. Where, geographically, did Islam originate? 2. How did it spread beyond the area of its origin? 3. How did Islam first come to predominate in the Holy Land? 4. How, and for what purpose did Islamic persons reach the gates of Vienna? How many times did they do so? 5. How did Islam come to the Iberian peninsula? 6. Explain the motives behind and purpose behind the Crusades. [Hint: except perhaps incidentally, it did not involve displacement of indigenous, peace-loving Muslim people.] 7. What use does Islamic scripture (including Haddithic writings) suggest for the sword? Other than preservation of civil order (Paul's Letter to the Romans) and individual self-defense (Luke 22:36) what use of the sword is expressly approved for Christians?

1. Middle east.

2. conquest.

3. conquest & forceful conversion.

4. dont know the exact answer here but the purpose was probably islamic conquest.

5. same as above.

6. The motive and purpose was initially to take back stolen lands and avenge the deaths of innocents but later on many countries founded crusader states with an effort to drive muslims from the middle east where they had lived all of their lives and basically do to the muslims what the muslims had been doing to them which goes against the teachings of Christ. And of course seeing the opportunity for riches and glory many people climed on the bandwagon just for the purpose of......you guessed it conquest. But this discussion goes even deeper. There were alot of people in those times who claimed to be Christians and were not. Some maybe even believed that they were Christians but they were not. The Crusades are a Perfect example of good intentions gone very wrong.

7. Ive never read the quoran (or whatever its called) so i dont know, except that ive heard that all people must convert or "face the sword" In the old testiment of the Bible it says "if you have no sword than sell your garments and buy one." but in the new testiment Jesus says "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword."
If you must defend yourself than of course do so with zest but dont claim to do so in the name of Christ. God has never needed us to defend him and he never will. And while defense is ok blatant slaughter is not.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity? Do you consider last week current enough? No mention of beheadings, but 200 Muslims are dead and 120 missing after a Christian militia saw fit to lay waste to a muslim a village with machetes, spears and machine guns. www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/07/1083911409579.html

that is in the middle of a war, right?  

Quoted: Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity. What are you talking about?

Since when do Islamicists hang out at Christian white supremicist camps in Oklahoma?
World Net Daily article from 2001
All about Elohim City

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity? Do you consider last week current enough? No mention of beheadings, but 200 Muslims are dead and 120 missing after a Christian militia saw fit to lay waste to a muslim a village with machetes, spears and machine guns. www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/07/1083911409579.html

From the article you linked to:  "Religious violence has killed at least 5000 people since 2000, when 12 northern states predominantly inhabited by Muslims  established sharia law."

Quoted: 7. Ive never read the quoran (or whatever its called) so i dont know, except that ive heard that all people must convert or "face the sword" In the old testiment of the Bible it says "if you have no sword than sell your garments and buy one." but in the new testiment Jesus says "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword." If you must defend yourself than of course do so with zest but dont claim to do so in the name of Christ. God has never needed us to defend him and he never will. And while defense is ok blatant slaughter is not.

Both quotes are attributed to Jesus.

Do any of you know who  in 1462/1463  stopped Mohammed II from invading Europe through
what's modern day Romania? Mohammed II stopped when he saw over 20,000 Turks slaughtered
and displayed on posts.  The order for the slaughter was given by Vlad Tepes, better known
to us today as Dracula.

Quoted: Personally anyone who believes in that nonsense called creationist science is quite capable of being convinced to to saw off a head of someone deemed non human by they're controllers of the Koresh / Jimmy Jones ilk ...

You know, for a second there I thought you were saying that anyone who doesn't share your particular faith is a) too dumb to think for themselves; b) incapable of knowing right from wrong; and c) quite capable of, if not inherently inclined to, brutality of the lowest form.

But that couldn't be right, could it?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity. What are you talking about? Since when do Islamicists hang out at Christian white supremicist camps in Oklahoma? World Net Daily article from 2001 All about Elohim City

since when did timothy mcveigh go to elohim city?    your link is pretty thin, at best.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity. What are you talking about? Since when do Islamicists hang out at Christian white supremicist camps in Oklahoma? World Net Daily article from 2001 All about Elohim City

I think it is quite clear to those investigating that McVeigh was in bed with radical Islam.

www.intelwire.com/hamptonel010609.html

Is al Qaeda recruitment of U.S. soldiers linked to OKC Bombing?

Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols both abruptly moved to significant al Qaeda centers within weeks of a December 1992 meeting that sent an al Qaeda recruiter out to solicit former U.S. soldiers.


By J.M. BERGER
INTELWIRE.COM

Just one month after an al Qaeda recruiter was ordered to contact former U.S. servicemen, both Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols relocated to areas where Osama bin Laden's terror network was actively recruiting.

In December 1992, al Qaeda operative Clement Rodney Hampton-El was given a list of former U.S. servicemen to recruit as volunteers by a Saudi-linked cleric based in the Philippines, according to testimony in his 1995 trial.

Shortly after Hampton-El was given the list, McVeigh quit his job and moved to Florida, where al Qaeda was creating a new financing network. In January 1993, Nichols traveled to the Philippines, where al Qaeda had extensive training and financial operations already in place, and stayed there for 30 to 60 days.

Hampton-El was a weapons dealer connected to a New York City al Qaeda cell responsible for planning a series of ammonium nitrate truck bomb attacks. Ammonium nitrate was also the main component of the Oklahoma City bomb used by McVeigh and Nichols.

Hampton-El purchased weapons and literature used by the NYC plotters at gun shows in the U.S. on at least one occasion, according to court testimony. A search by the FBI also revealed that the NYC cell had stockpiled large amounts of literature related to the U.S. survivalist movement, according to evidence presented at trial.

McVeigh has both been connected to the survivalist movement, and both McVeigh and Nichols are documented to have sold weapons at gun shows during the time frame that Hampton-El was dealing in weapons.

Like Terry Nichols, who wed a mail-order bride in the Philippines in 1990, Hampton-El had strong ties to the Philippines and even considered marrying a Filipina in 1993.

And newly uncovered evidence reveals that Hampton-El helped recruit Persian Gulf War veterans using a list of U.S. servicemen provided by a Saudi-linked cleric who collected contact information from U.S. soldiers at the same time McVeigh was serving in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

While evidence connecting Hampton-El or related operatives to the Oklahoma City bombing plot currently remains strictly circumstantial, the highly suggestive timing of the circumstances and the sheer volume of the correspondences merits a serious second look at the circumstances leading up to OKC.

THE DECEMBER MEETING

In December 1992, Hampton-El was given a list of U.S. servicemen who were about to complete their tours of duty, with the instruction that he was to recruit potential trainers and combatants from this list, according to his testimony in the 1995 trial US v Omar Abdel Rahman, et al.

Hampton-El said the list was provided by Bilal Philips, a cleric who worked for the Saudi government no later than March 1991. Philips ran a program that aggressively sought to convert U.S. soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia to Islam, according to his own account in a London-based Arabic-language magazine interview. Philips claimed the program collected the names and addresses of 3,000 U.S. servicemen.

Philips said in the interview that the names were given to Islamic centers around the U.S., where designated people were instructed to follow up with the servicemen. Hampton-El was associated with the Al-Kifah center in Brooklyn, which has been tied to al Qaeda by numerous government investigations and media reports. (See story, "Al Qaeda Recruited Gulf War Vets, Effort Tied To Saudi Gov't.")

Shortly after the Saudi embassy meeting took place, Timothy McVeigh abruptly quit his last known job and drove thousands of miles from New York to Florida, where he stayed for two months starting in January 1993, according to court documents and testimony.

At the exact same time, an Al Qaeda operation was starting up in the same town which sought to recruit American citizens, according to court documents, media reports and testimony.

In January 1993, Terry Nichols and his wife Marife moved out of the Nichols' family farm in Decker, MI, and traveled to the Philippines, according to Nichols' ex-wife Lana Padilla, court records and media reports.

Nichols stayed in the Philippines for no more than 60 days during this visit, according to various sources. Nichols' ex-wife wrote that this trip took place in early 1993 and lasted 60 days; media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting placed the trip from late January to early February.

McVEIGH'S TRAVELS

According to numerous sources, Timothy McVeigh was stationed in Saudi Arabia as part of detail guarding Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, around the time that Philips was beginning his recruitment drive there. McVeigh returned to the U.S. around the end of March 1991 to try out for the Special Forces at Fort Bragg, N.C. (where al Qaeda infiltrator Ali Mohammed had been posted just three years earlier).

After failing to win entry to the Special Forces program, McVeigh quit the Army and moved to the Buffalo, N.Y. area, where he enlisted in the National Guard. He dropped out of that assignment in May 1992, according to the New York Times.

At the end of December 1992, shortly after the Saudi Embassy meeting, Timothy McVeigh abruptly quit his last known job as a security guard in Lockport, NY, according to numerous sources. He paid off a large gambling debt and drove directly to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where he took part in a gun show in early January, according to trial testimony and related documents.

The first few months of 1993 represented a very active period for al Qaeda operatives in the United States, including Ramzi Yousef, who was an associate of Hampton-El's New York terror cell.

Yousef was in New York and New Jersey from September 1992 until February 1993, when he detonated a truck bomb in the basement of the World Trade Centers.

Hampton-El later had access to bomb-making manuals which specifically detailed how to build an ammonium nitrate-nitromethane fueled bomb of the type McVeigh later used to destroy the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, according to testimony in US v Rahman. In 1994, McVeigh was seen reading a "book on bomb-building" which has never been identified, according to testimony presented at his trial.

Some of the New York manuals were identical to material seized from an accomplice of Yousef in 1992, according to court documents and testimony.

On his arrival in Florida, McVeigh stayed with his sister in Plantation, just 20 minutes away from an al Qaeda charity front known as the Benevolence International Foundation, according to federal afffidavits and indictments.

al Qaeda was specifically attempting to recruit American citizens in the Fort Lauderdale area at that time, according to federal indictments and media reports. One operative recruited in Plantation around this time was alleged al Qaeda "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla, according to numerous media reports.

A white supremacist group later rumored to be connected to McVeigh was also operating in Davie, Fla., near the local Taco Bell where Padilla worked, according to court documents, although McVeigh's possible ties to the group are unclear at best. The group staged a KKK march on Martin Luther King Day in Davie that month, according to court records.

IN THE PHILIPPINES

Between 1991 and 1993, Bilal Philips relocated to the Philippines and set up an Islamic school in Cotabato, according to his resume and various media reports, a few miles away from a purported import-export business run by Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, according to business registrations. Philips lectured at Islamic centers in and around the area, according to media reports.

Khalifa, a brother-in-law of Osama bin Laden, was reportedly a major financier for al Qaeda and the Abu Sayyaf Group at the time, according to U.S. and Philippines authorities.

According to federal indictments and evidentiary materials, Khalifa was also closely tied to the Benevolence Foundation and to the New York terror cell led by Omar Abdel Rahman.

Philips arranged for Hampton-El to be flown to Saudi Arabia and then subsequently to the Philippines in May 1993, according to Hampton-El's trial testimony.

Hampton-El testified that he and Philips attended a conference in Manila, which he said was sponsored by wealthy Saudis and attended by polticians from around Southeast Asia. The trip lasted a week.

At the time of the conference, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa was director of the Philippines branch of the International Islamic Relief Organization, a Manila-based charity sponsored primarily by wealthy Saudis, including members of the royal family and government officials. He married a local woman, who was listed as one of the founding directors for IIRO in registration documents from the early 1990s.

IIRO is widely characterized as an al Qaeda-linked organization by world governments, including the U.S. and the Philippines. Law enforcement officials say IIRO assists al Qaeda operations with cash and personnel. IIRO has been specifically tied to Abu Sayyaf training camps in the southern Philippines in the vicinity of Mindanao.

Hampton-El told friends he was planning to move to the Philippines after the "Day of Terror" attack and join the mujahideen efforts there, but he was arrested before the attack could take place.

At one point, federal authorities recorded him telling friends that he had visited a terrorist training camp in the south of the Philippines, although he later denied this in court, claiming he had been lying and boasting in his earlier statements. Phone records introduced at trial indicated several calls to the Philippines which Hampton-El testified were to a Filipina Muslim in whom he had a romantic interest. Hampton-El made several calls to the woman before his June 1993 arrest, which his lawyer said were in preparation for another trip to the Philippines during which he intended to marry her.

Terry Nichols married a Filipina from Cebu City in 1990, and he reportedly stayed in Cebu during his visits to the Philippines. Cebu is about 200 miles north of Cotabato. Nichols did not serve in the Gulf War, receiving an honorable discharge in 1989.

In late 1990, Nichols had traveled to the Philippines and used a mail-order bride service to find a wife. That 1990 visit coincided with an alleged visit to the Philippines by Ramzi Yousef and a confirmed visit by Abdul Hakim Murad. The exact date of his 1993 visit could not be conclusively verified at the time this article was written.

Significant documents cited in this article were provided by investigative journalist Peter Lance http://www.peterlance.com, whose book on the FBI's investigation of Ramzi Yousef, "1000 Years for Revenge," is available from Amazon.com and at booksellers everywhere.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Timothy McVeigh had closer ties with the radical muslims than he ever had with christianity. What are you talking about? Since when do Islamicists hang out at Christian white supremicist camps in Oklahoma? World Net Daily article from 2001 All about Elohim City I think it is quite clear to those investigating that McVeigh was in bed with radical Islam. www.intelwire.com/hamptonel010609.html Is al Qaeda recruitment of U.S. soldiers linked to OKC Bombing? Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols both abruptly moved to significant al Qaeda centers within weeks of a December 1992 meeting that sent an al Qaeda recruiter out to solicit former U.S. soldiers. By J.M. BERGER INTELWIRE.COM You do realize  this is crazy?  Do you really think anybody is going truely believe McVeigh was Al-Qaeda? Or is it just convienent becuase they are ashamed that a militia/racist group carried out the Oklahoma City terrorist attack?   Just one month after an al Qaeda recruiter was ordered to contact former U.S. servicemen, both Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols relocated to areas where Osama bin Laden's terror network was actively recruiting. In December 1992, al Qaeda operative Clement Rodney Hampton-El was given a list of former U.S. servicemen to recruit as volunteers by a Saudi-linked cleric based in the Philippines, according to testimony in his 1995 trial. Shortly after Hampton-El was given the list, McVeigh quit his job and moved to Florida, where al Qaeda was creating a new financing network. In January 1993, Nichols traveled to the Philippines, where al Qaeda had extensive training and financial operations already in place, and stayed there for 30 to 60 days. Hampton-El was a weapons dealer connected to a New York City al Qaeda cell responsible for planning a series of ammonium nitrate truck bomb attacks. Ammonium nitrate was also the main component of the Oklahoma City bomb used by McVeigh and Nichols. Hampton-El purchased weapons and literature used by the NYC plotters at gun shows in the U.S. on at least one occasion, according to court testimony. A search by the FBI also revealed that the NYC cell had stockpiled large amounts of literature related to the U.S. survivalist movement, according to evidence presented at trial. McVeigh has both been connected to the survivalist movement, and both McVeigh and Nichols are documented to have sold weapons at gun shows during the time frame that Hampton-El was dealing in weapons. Like Terry Nichols, who wed a mail-order bride in the Philippines in 1990, Hampton-El had strong ties to the Philippines and even considered marrying a Filipina in 1993. And newly uncovered evidence reveals that Hampton-El helped recruit Persian Gulf War veterans using a list of U.S. servicemen provided by a Saudi-linked cleric who collected contact information from U.S. soldiers at the same time McVeigh was serving in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. While evidence connecting Hampton-El or related operatives to the Oklahoma City bombing plot currently remains strictly circumstantial, the highly suggestive timing of the circumstances and the sheer volume of the correspondences merits a serious second look at the circumstances leading up to OKC. THE DECEMBER MEETING In December 1992, Hampton-El was given a list of U.S. servicemen who were about to complete their tours of duty, with the instruction that he was to recruit potential trainers and combatants from this list, according to his testimony in the 1995 trial US v Omar Abdel Rahman, et al. Hampton-El said the list was provided by Bilal Philips, a cleric who worked for the Saudi government no later than March 1991. Philips ran a program that aggressively sought to convert U.S. soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia to Islam, according to his own account in a London-based Arabic-language magazine interview. Philips claimed the program collected the names and addresses of 3,000 U.S. servicemen. Philips said in the interview that the names were given to Islamic centers around the U.S., where designated people were instructed to follow up with the servicemen. Hampton-El was associated with the Al-Kifah center in Brooklyn, which has been tied to al Qaeda by numerous government investigations and media reports. (See story, "Al Qaeda Recruited Gulf War Vets, Effort Tied To Saudi Gov't.") Shortly after the Saudi embassy meeting took place, Timothy McVeigh abruptly quit his last known job and drove thousands of miles from New York to Florida, where he stayed for two months starting in January 1993, according to court documents and testimony. At the exact same time, an Al Qaeda operation was starting up in the same town which sought to recruit American citizens, according to court documents, media reports and testimony. In January 1993, Terry Nichols and his wife Marife moved out of the Nichols' family farm in Decker, MI, and traveled to the Philippines, according to Nichols' ex-wife Lana Padilla, court records and media reports. Nichols stayed in the Philippines for no more than 60 days during this visit, according to various sources. Nichols' ex-wife wrote that this trip took place in early 1993 and lasted 60 days; media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting placed the trip from late January to early February. McVEIGH'S TRAVELS According to numerous sources, Timothy McVeigh was stationed in Saudi Arabia as part of detail guarding Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, around the time that Philips was beginning his recruitment drive there. McVeigh returned to the U.S. around the end of March 1991 to try out for the Special Forces at Fort Bragg, N.C. (where al Qaeda infiltrator Ali Mohammed had been posted just three years earlier). After failing to win entry to the Special Forces program, McVeigh quit the Army and moved to the Buffalo, N.Y. area, where he enlisted in the National Guard. He dropped out of that assignment in May 1992, according to the New York Times. At the end of December 1992, shortly after the Saudi Embassy meeting, Timothy McVeigh abruptly quit his last known job as a security guard in Lockport, NY, according to numerous sources. He paid off a large gambling debt and drove directly to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where he took part in a gun show in early January, according to trial testimony and related documents. The first few months of 1993 represented a very active period for al Qaeda operatives in the United States, including Ramzi Yousef, who was an associate of Hampton-El's New York terror cell. Yousef was in New York and New Jersey from September 1992 until February 1993, when he detonated a truck bomb in the basement of the World Trade Centers. Hampton-El later had access to bomb-making manuals which specifically detailed how to build an ammonium nitrate-nitromethane fueled bomb of the type McVeigh later used to destroy the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, according to testimony in US v Rahman. In 1994, McVeigh was seen reading a "book on bomb-building" which has never been identified, according to testimony presented at his trial. Some of the New York manuals were identical to material seized from an accomplice of Yousef in 1992, according to court documents and testimony. On his arrival in Florida, McVeigh stayed with his sister in Plantation, just 20 minutes away from an al Qaeda charity front known as the Benevolence International Foundation, according to federal afffidavits and indictments. al Qaeda was specifically attempting to recruit American citizens in the Fort Lauderdale area at that time, according to federal indictments and media reports. One operative recruited in Plantation around this time was alleged al Qaeda "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla, according to numerous media reports. A white supremacist group later rumored to be connected to McVeigh was also operating in Davie, Fla., near the local Taco Bell where Padilla worked, according to court documents, although McVeigh's possible ties to the group are unclear at best. The group staged a KKK march on Martin Luther King Day in Davie that month, according to court records. IN THE PHILIPPINES Between 1991 and 1993, Bilal Philips relocated to the Philippines and set up an Islamic school in Cotabato, according to his resume and various media reports, a few miles away from a purported import-export business run by Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, according to business registrations. Philips lectured at Islamic centers in and around the area, according to media reports. Khalifa, a brother-in-law of Osama bin Laden, was reportedly a major financier for al Qaeda and the Abu Sayyaf Group at the time, according to U.S. and Philippines authorities. According to federal indictments and evidentiary materials, Khalifa was also closely tied to the Benevolence Foundation and to the New York terror cell led by Omar Abdel Rahman. Philips arranged for Hampton-El to be flown to Saudi Arabia and then subsequently to the Philippines in May 1993, according to Hampton-El's trial testimony. Hampton-El testified that he and Philips attended a conference in Manila, which he said was sponsored by wealthy Saudis and attended by polticians from around Southeast Asia. The trip lasted a week. At the time of the conference, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa was director of the Philippines branch of the International Islamic Relief Organization, a Manila-based charity sponsored primarily by wealthy Saudis, including members of the royal family and government officials. He married a local woman, who was listed as one of the founding directors for IIRO in registration documents from the early 1990s. IIRO is widely characterized as an al Qaeda-linked organization by world governments, including the U.S. and the Philippines. Law enforcement officials say IIRO assists al Qaeda operations with cash and personnel. IIRO has been specifically tied to Abu Sayyaf training camps in the southern Philippines in the vicinity of Mindanao. Hampton-El told friends he was planning to move to the Philippines after the "Day of Terror" attack and join the mujahideen efforts there, but he was arrested before the attack could take place. At one point, federal authorities recorded him telling friends that he had visited a terrorist training camp in the south of the Philippines, although he later denied this in court, claiming he had been lying and boasting in his earlier statements. Phone records introduced at trial indicated several calls to the Philippines which Hampton-El testified were to a Filipina Muslim in whom he had a romantic interest. Hampton-El made several calls to the woman before his June 1993 arrest, which his lawyer said were in preparation for another trip to the Philippines during which he intended to marry her. Terry Nichols married a Filipina from Cebu City in 1990, and he reportedly stayed in Cebu during his visits to the Philippines. Cebu is about 200 miles north of Cotabato. Nichols did not serve in the Gulf War, receiving an honorable discharge in 1989. In late 1990, Nichols had traveled to the Philippines and used a mail-order bride service to find a wife. That 1990 visit coincided with an alleged visit to the Philippines by Ramzi Yousef and a confirmed visit by Abdul Hakim Murad. The exact date of his 1993 visit could not be conclusively verified at the time this article was written. Significant documents cited in this article were provided by investigative journalist Peter Lance http://www.peterlance.com, whose book on the FBI's investigation of Ramzi Yousef, "1000 Years for Revenge," is available from Amazon.com and at booksellers everywhere.

You do realize this is crazy?  Do you really think anybody is going to truely believe McVeigh was Al-Qaeda? Or is it just convienent becuase they are ashamed that a militia/racist group carried out the Oklahoma City terrorist attack? Is this a bad case of "rewriting" history or just plan lying to push an agenda.

Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

Plerase identify ONE "Crusader" and then give BIBLICAL proof that he was in fact a Christian.

You can't do it, because the unique reality of Christianity is that mere profession of faith is NOT a valid proof of being a Christian.

The Bible says "by their fruit you will know them."

What this means is "Look at the lifestyle. If they don't act like Christians on the whole (i.e. no one is sinlessly perfect)  then they aren't Christian."

Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Plerase identify ONE "Crusader" and then give BIBLICAL proof that he was in fact a Christian. You can't do it, because the unique reality of Christianity is that mere profession of faith is NOT a valid proof of being a Christian. The Bible says "by their fruit you will know them." What this means is "Look at the lifestyle. If they don't act like Christians on the whole (i.e. no one is sinlessly perfect)  then they aren't Christian."

I agree. And in my experience, I think I have only met about 3 true Christians out of thousands of self-professed ones. The consistent thing about those three, none of them even tried to convince you of their faith. They lived it and that was sufficient for them. They had no need to present their spiritual resume to you, just before evangelizing.

Lemme just add -

Christianity is NOT a religion, because a religion is a set of rules and regs.

Christiantiy is defined by the lifestyle - are you "like Jesus Christ?"

"Have you obeyed his initial command of having faith, then do you emulate Him with your life?"

Christiantiy is to religion what expert marksmanship is to gun ownership.

Atheists kill unborn children. Joseph Stalin was an atheist.

Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Plerase identify ONE "Crusader" and then give BIBLICAL proof that he was in fact a Christian. You can't do it, because the unique reality of Christianity is that mere profession of faith is NOT a valid proof of being a Christian. The Bible says "by their fruit you will know them." What this means is "Look at the lifestyle. If they don't act like Christians on the whole (i.e. no one is sinlessly perfect)  then they aren't Christian."

I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you really trying to rewrite history to say the crusaders were not Christans? I'm not going to say EVERY crusader was a Christian, but I will say the crusades were organized, planned, and funded by Christians. Hell, the Pope himself called for many of the crusades. Are you really going to tell me I'm wrong on this fact?

Quoted: Are you really trying to rewrite history to say the crusaders were not Christans? I'm not going to say EVERY crusader was a Christian, but I will say the crusades were organized, planned, and funded by Christians. Hell, the Pope himself called for many of the crusades. Are you really going to tell me I'm wrong on this fact?

Actually, you are buying the lie of history that just because someone claims to be a Christian that they are a Christian.

You just admitted that NOT EVERY "Crusader" was a Christian. Dontcha think its likely that the NON-CHRISTIAN crusaders committed MOST (if not nearly all) of the NON-CHRISTIAN acts you are trying to pin on Chrsitians??

I happen to believe that, if you are gonna pin responsbility for these acts on Christians, you should be able to name names of the actual perpetrators, and then PROVE they were in fact Christians, in accord with Biblical parameters.

I'm NOT re-writing history here. I'm holding you to a reasonable standard of proof. Not my fault if that standard doesn't fit with the silliness you were taught in your "publik skool sistim."

We mustn't forget the Spanish Conquistadors.... guys like Fransisco Pizarro... convert to my religion or I will kill you... give me your gold or I will kill you...