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Posted: 6/9/2017 5:59:41 PM EDT
[#1]
I used to shoot a lot of trap and would,love,to get back into it. Tagged for later. Thanks OP.
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Posted: 6/9/2017 7:14:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to shoot a lot of trap and would,love,to get back into it. Tagged for later. Thanks OP. 
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Posted: 6/9/2017 7:50:47 PM EDT
[#3]
The Browning probably has longer forcing cones than the Marlin. Try an older fixed choke shotgun versus the Marlin.
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Posted: 6/9/2017 7:58:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see those old guns around, always thought a clip fed, bolt action shotgun was kinda odd. How fast can you work the bolt on that thing? Is it smooth at all? |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:04:14 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:42:59 PM EDT
[#6]
All chokes are not created equal. Years ago I got all whipped up about sporting clays and bought a ruger O/U in 12Ga which came with a full selection of screw in chokes.
To allow quicker changes I bought a extended set of Briely chokes. Extensive testing showed patterns were vastly more uniform with the briely chokes. I suppose they were more gradual as they were longer and deformed fewer pellets. I also saw a fair range of different patterns using different brands of shells even with the same shot size and velocity . I supposed this was due to hardness of the shot and type of wad. Short answer, shoot the gun on paper |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:59:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Short answer, shoot the gun on paper 
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Posted: 6/9/2017 10:16:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have handled several and they were not all that smooth. to be fair they were all kind of beat up and not well cared for Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I see those old guns around, always thought a clip fed, bolt action shotgun was kinda odd. How fast can you work the bolt on that thing? Is it smooth at all?
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Posted: 6/10/2017 12:07:34 AM EDT
[#9]
Nice work OP.
So the obvious question now is how short is the best length? Sight radius is a factor I suppose but if you can't hit with 18-20" radius I doubt any more would help. If choke is all that matters why would you buy any thing longer then maybe 20". I don't buy the "swing" line. I think you get proficient with whatever you use most often. Why would you want the added weight of 26 or longer tubes especially if you have 2 tubes so long as you have some sort of recoil mitigation device? I've been wanting a decent o/u and now I'm thinking the shortest I can find is the way to go wether it's for trap, skeet, ducks, or turkey. If barrel length adds nothing to improving pattern then it's not worth hauling it around. Amiright? |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 6:04:15 AM EDT
[#10]
I always figured that the seal around the wad and the payload wasn't good enough (like a bullet in a bore) for barrel length to make much difference in final barrel exit velocity.
In for the truth! |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 6:06:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is the best there is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That Federal Flite Control really is something. Another good thing to know. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:14:09 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good stuff, O_P.
The one, major, advantage that I have found with longer barreled shotguns, is the swing of the gun is smoother. I've shot clays with barrels ranging from 18" to 32". The longer barrels always put me on target much smoother than the shorter barrels. To properly choke your gun you should have bore measured, it is common to backbore 12ga up to .740 now when the old guns used to be .725ish. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:15:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You probably don't have a bore gauge to mic the bore and choke but if you did I would love to know the actual constriction. I mic all my old guns. It would also be cool if you could pattern some shells loaded with fiber or cork wads. Modern plastic wads are going to make most guns pattern more consistent. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:22:23 AM EDT
[#14]
So you're saying that the .629 choke in my brothers 12 gauge shotgun is a bit tight?
When you go to closed match shoots in Southern Indiana you will see a lot of 4 and 5' barreled shotguns. To say the least they are effective because we shoot them at 47 yards. The board is completely covered. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:34:17 AM EDT
[#15]
I always wondered about those. You don't see many of them out west, and when you do, it's usually someone who moved it west with them.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:49:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good stuff, O_P.
The one, major, advantage that I have found with longer barreled shotguns, is the swing of the gun is smoother. I've shot clays with barrels ranging from 18" to 32". The longer barrels always put me on target much smoother than the shorter barrels. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:02:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Thanks OP.
Im a waterfowler and do upland hunting too. I went with a 28" win sx3 back when they first came out because it was marketed as being needed over the 26" for big northern geese. When my g/f got into it I got her the same in a 26" and prefer its maneuverability especially in a layout or boat blind. Nice to know I'm not loosing performance with it's shorter barrel Looks like I'll have to find another excuse for missed birds |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:29:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice work OP. So the obvious question now is how short is the best length? Sight radius is a factor I suppose but if you can't hit with 18-20" radius I doubt any more would help. If choke is all that matters why would you buy any thing longer then maybe 20". I don't buy the "swing" line. I think you get proficient with whatever you use most often. Why would you want the added weight of 26 or longer tubes especially if you have 2 tubes so long as you have some sort of recoil mitigation device? I've been wanting a decent o/u and now I'm thinking the shortest I can find is the way to go wether it's for trap, skeet, ducks, or turkey. If barrel length adds nothing to improving pattern then it's not worth hauling it around. Amiright? You don't "sight" a shotgun -- at least not when the target is in flight. If you're looking at the barrel when shooting a flying object you will MISS that object every time. The eyes stay fixed on the target. Longer barrels and added weight are definitely an advantage. In order to hit a flying object you must follow through with your swing. Stopping the swing is one of the main causes of missing behind the target. With longer/heavier barrels momentum will assist you in following through your swing. You have to keep the barrels moving. With light/short barrels the tendancy is to stop the swing. Can you hit flying targets with short barrels? Sure. But most shooters find that it's a lot easier with longer barrels. Before you buy an over/under it would serve you well to shoot a few rounds of skeet, five-stand or sporting clays with a few different borrowed or rented guns. I think you'll quickly see the advantage of the longer barrels. On the other hand, if you're looking to buy an over/under on a budget, there are lots of 26" and (increasingly) 28" barrel guns out there that can be had cheap. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:31:28 AM EDT
[#19]
The damn thing doubled. I hate it when that happens.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:35:34 AM EDT
[#20]
That's cool.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:41:35 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks OP. Im a waterfowler and do upland hunting too. I went with a 28" win sx3 back when they first came out because it was marketed as being needed over the 26" for big northern geese. When my g/f got into it I got her the same in a 26" and prefer its maneuverability especially in a layout or boat blind . . . |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:51:34 AM EDT
[#22]
I think this test tells us as much or more about gun marketing than how shotguns shoot. Nice work, OP!
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:59:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You probably don't have a bore gauge to mic the bore and choke but if you did I would love to know the actual constriction. I mic all my old guns. It would also be cool if you could pattern some shells loaded with fiber or cork wads. Modern plastic wads are going to make most guns pattern more consistent. At this point we do not know if the actual choke constriction was the same. Could have easily been .010 to .015" difference between the two. I believe choke is what makes the difference in patterns, but this test doesn't tell us much. Actual bore diameter? Actual choke diameter? Taper choke? If so, how long was the taper? Any parallel after the choke? Checking with a dime doesn't tell much. I had a cylinder bore 12ga that a dime wouldn't fit. Entire bore was well under nominal 12ga. Great day at the range, but more information needed to gain a real understanding. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:03:05 AM EDT
[#24]
I love these threads....always have. They inspire me to be retired and have the time to be at the range more often
Thanks for the debunk O_P
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:04:54 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
At this point we do not know if the actual choke constriction was the same. Could have easily been .010 to .015" difference between the two. I believe choke is what makes the difference in patterns, but this test doesn't tell us much . . . This test is obviously flawed. Different guns, from different eras, different manufacturers . . . .tells us nothing. The way to do this is to use one gun, one choke tube and two or three different barrels. Painless should acquire a Remington 870 with three barrels -- a 20", a 26" and 30" -- all threaded to accept Remchokes. He should repeat the test using the same full choke tube in all three barrels. I'm convinced the result will be essentially the same: barrel length makes no difference. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:05:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is the best there is. Barrel length - down to 12" doesn't really affect much, besides velocity, with slug, buck, or shot. It's all about the choke. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:06:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice work OP. So the obvious question now is how short is the best length? Sight radius is a factor I suppose but if you can't hit with 18-20" radius I doubt any more would help. If choke is all that matters why would you buy any thing longer then maybe 20". I don't buy the "swing" line. I think you get proficient with whatever you use most often. Why would you want the added weight of 26 or longer tubes especially if you have 2 tubes so long as you have some sort of recoil mitigation device? I've been wanting a decent o/u and now I'm thinking the shortest I can find is the way to go wether it's for trap, skeet, ducks, or turkey. If barrel length adds nothing to improving pattern then it's not worth hauling it around. Amiright? If you are "aiming" a shotgun like a rifle, you are going to miss. A lot. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:54:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love these threads....always have. They inspire me to be retired and have the time to be at the range more often
Thanks for the debunk O_P
Just be prepared for all those that tell you that you didn't do it right. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:59:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a fun hobby.
Just be prepared for all those that tell you that you didn't do it right. 
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:03:25 AM EDT
[#30]
Nice!
I was always under the conventional thought that the longer barrel outperformed in pattern effectiveness. You learn something new every day!
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:06:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1 This test is obviously flawed. Different guns, from different eras, different manufacturers . . . .tells us nothing. The way to do this is to use one gun, one choke tube and two or three different barrels. Painless should acquire a Remington 870 with three barrels -- a 20", a 26" and 30" -- all threaded to accept Remchokes. He should repeat the test using the same full choke tube in all three barrels. I'm convinced the result will be essentially the same: barrel length makes no difference.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:08:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Box of truth finds truth !
Nice write up and informative. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:14:00 AM EDT
[#33]
1. I missed what gage SG it was
2. Does the longer barrel add velocity? |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:14:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This test is obviously flawed. Different guns, from different eras, different manufacturers . . . .tells us nothing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
This test is obviously flawed. Different guns, from different eras, different manufacturers . . . .tells us nothing. It told us that these different guns, from different eras, from different manufacturers, with the same chokes...........Shot the same sized patterns. The way to do this is to use one gun, one choke tube and two or three different barrels. Painless should acquire a Remington 870 with three barrels -- a 20", a 26" and 30" -- all threaded to accept Remchokes. He should repeat the test using the same full choke tube in all three barrels. I'm convinced the result will be essentially the same: barrel length makes no difference. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:15:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What about greater velocity out of the goose gun vs 26" barrel? |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:21:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Package all that up, plus ammo, and some money for gas and extras, and ship it to me. I will be glad to test your theory. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:27:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was a kid, there were turkey shoots that would ban long barreled guns for the perceived reasons you gave. Funny to think all of those hillbillies and good ole boys were wrong. I just took their word for it because they had been running those and black powder shoots for a long time. A lot of those guys were big 16g fans as well. A couple of good old boys had some real long single shots that shot super tight patterns. It kind of ruined the turkey shoots because when these guys showed up nobody else wanted to play. Not sure if somebody in the good old days learned how to work over the chokes or if they were that tight from the factory . |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:28:22 AM EDT
[#38]
So my take is that the Federal Ammo is worth the extra cost
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:33:58 AM EDT
[#39]
While I doubt that the results would be different, but given the variability of the load of pellets in the shell and how they are going to fly, I think the better way to conduct this test is not by doing a 40 yard test, but a 20-25 yard test. That way you are more likely to get all pellets on target. You can then draw a circle on the target and with multiple shots determine how many pellets stay within the circle. Given 5 shots each, you can then determine % for each gun and shell load.
Granted, I looking at picks on an iPad, but it looks like most of those shots at 40 yards didn't get the "full" spread of the shot as there seem to be several pellets missing from both Guns (aside from Federal Flight Control). Once again, I am not saying the results would be different, but I do think that would would be a "better" and more definitive measurement of spread. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:50:38 AM EDT
[#40]
I have been out of most shotgun sports for 10 or 15 years so conventional wisdom might have changed and of course local thinking could be different also.
Used to be the waterfowler's and trap guys thought the whole longer barrel gives you a smoother swing was a big deal and the skeet and sporting clays guys were thinking a shorter barrel got them on target faster. Only stands to reason a big guy with gorilla arms and a small woman are going to swing a shotgun different . As someone mentioned a pump or auto is already 3 or 4 inches longer than a single shot or double gun because of the length of the action. There are all sorts of things that could be tested , I am happy to read any stuff Old Painless does up , really have to laugh because whatever he shoots there is always a couple of guys yapping that he should have done it differently
Does anyone know if there is any standard that shotgun companies hold to when lableling chokes or do they just make it up themselves? Actual size of choke or percentage of pellets in a 30" circle? Guess there are lots of variables |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 11:50:22 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So my take is that the Federal Ammo is worth the extra cost It is the best available if you want a tight pattern. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 11:59:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone know if there is any standard that shotgun companies hold to when lableling chokes or do they just make it up themselves? Actual size of choke or percentage of pellets in a 30" circle? Guess there are lots of variables True Lock Basic Choke Information |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 12:54:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I am very fortunate to have a great Pastor at my church. Not only is he a great preacher, but he is also my very good friend. And, he is a gun nut. He recently told me that he had gotten an old shotgun from his Dad. It is a Marlin Goose Gun, also sometimes called a “Long Tom”. It has a 36 inch barrel. Marlin marketed these to goose hunters with the understanding that they would “reach way up” and knock down the geese, as it would hold a tight pattern WAY out there. But I wonder if that is a real fact or not? Our question today will be: Will an extra-long barrel shoot “tighter” patterns at 40 yards than a shorter barrel with the same choke? I told my Pastor, Jason and his son Hayden, who went with us, that it was customary to make a guess on the way to the range as to what the results would be. His guess was that since Marlin made these long barreled shotguns for shooting high-flying geese, maybe the long barrel would tighten up the pattern. My guess was that all that matters is the choke. Only one way to find out, right? 
So, we headed to the range. Here’s his shotgun. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-003-226566.jpg The barrel measures 36 inches. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-004-226567.jpg We tried to insert a dime in the choke and it would not fit through. That means it is Full Choke. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-001-226565.jpg We started off with some #4 Buckshot, with 27 pellets. Jason shot his gun at 40 yards. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-005-226568.jpg As you can see, 40 yards is a long shotgun shot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-007-226569.jpg We measured the pattern and it was 34 inches across. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-008-226570.jpg I then shot my friend Shane’s Browning Gold Hunter which has a 26 inch barrel and interchangeable chokes. It is a beautiful shotgun. I put a Full Choke in it so we would be comparing “apples to apples” regarding chokes. The only difference will be barrel length. I shot a round of #4 Buckshot from the Browning. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-009-226571.jpg The pattern width measured 33 inches. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-010-226572.jpg Then we tried some Wolf unbuffered 00 buckshot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-011-226573.jpg From the Goose Gun, 30 inch spread. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-013-226574.jpg From the Browning, 26 inch spread. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-015-226575.jpg Then we will try some Federal Flight Control 00 buckshot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-016-226576.jpg From the Goose Gun, 16 inch spread. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-017-226577.jpg From the Browning, 16 inch spread. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-018-226578.jpg His gun and mine are both marked “2 ¾ or 3 inch” shells. Let’s try some 3 inch shells from both. These are 3 inch #6 Birdshot. By the way, they kicked like a Missouri mule.
From the Goose Gun, 36 inch spread, but the entire target is well covered. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-021-226579.jpg From the Browning, 36 inch spread likewise, well-covered. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-022-226580.jpg While we were there, Hayden wanted to try a Combat Shotgun, so I let him run my Mossberg 20 inch pump. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-024-226581.jpg It thumped him, but he ran it just fine. He shot at about 15 yards and then I let him try a Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot load. I told him to aim for the target’s head. Here’s the result. Not bad shooting. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-027-226583.jpg It was such a nice day that we also ran my AR-15 with the red dot on it. I had them do some Type B response drills. At the command “Gun!”, two to the chest and one to the head. They both ran the rifle great. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-029-226584.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/25628/Marlin-Long-Tom-031-226585.jpg Conclusions: 1. The extra barrel length did not “tighten-up” the groups at all. 2. All that mattered was the choke. The same choke in different length barrels will give approximately the same sized patterns. One thing for sure…..It’s fun to shoot stuff. Velocity? some shots at geese are taken at 60+ yards, at steep angles. Maybe the longer barrels just give you enough "ass" to get there and do enough damage to bring the goose down. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 12:54:40 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 6/10/2017 1:17:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see those old guns around, always thought a clip fed, bolt action shotgun was kinda odd. How fast can you work the bolt on that thing? Is it smooth at all? The one I had was a clunky jerky bindingup old thing. The bolt handle root actually is the locking block. Someone sawed the cuts comp and choke off so I faced it in the lathe, and made a slip on soldered in place choke. Real gradual choke full/mod. Gave it to my brother. He claims it shoots great. Now a long barreled shotgun does have one or two advantages. It swings and aims better. {better follow threw and sight plane} Thanks for the kool write up and testing painless. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 1:24:10 PM EDT
[#46]
shotguns are tested by firing the shotgun at a circle of 30" and counting the number of pellets that land inside the circle
see link http://www.chuckhawks.com/pattern_shotgun.htm figuring out how shotguns spray shot is not exactly a new thing |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 2:31:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Velocity? some shots at geese are taken at 60+ yards, at steep angles. Maybe the longer barrels just give you enough "ass" to get there and do enough damage to bring the goose down. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:52:55 PM EDT
[#48]
A bump for tonite.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:02:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found that I'm less bad with a longer barrel on birds of both the living and clay variety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found that I'm less bad with a longer barrel on birds of both the living and clay variety. Quoted:
Nope. The only benefits to a longer barrel are longer sighting plane and a more natural swing-and the more natural swing is debatable, depending on how well the rest of the gun's weight is distributed. Got an ooooold shotgun with a, what was it, something like 36" barrel, fixed choke. Everyone at the trap range laughed at it. Then I proceeded to rack up 24/25 scores. 
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Posted: 6/11/2017 4:02:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice work OP. So the obvious question now is how short is the best length? Sight radius is a factor I suppose but if you can't hit with 18-20" radius I doubt any more would help. If choke is all that matters why would you buy any thing longer then maybe 20". I don't buy the "swing" line. I think you get proficient with whatever you use most often. Why would you want the added weight of 26 or longer tubes especially if you have 2 tubes so long as you have some sort of recoil mitigation device? I've been wanting a decent o/u and now I'm thinking the shortest I can find is the way to go wether it's for trap, skeet, ducks, or turkey. If barrel length adds nothing to improving pattern then it's not worth hauling it around. Amiright? I wouldn't go shorter than 28" barrels on an o/u or sxs or 26" on a semi/pump for a do everything gun. Long barrels exsist for a reason most modern shooters even in skeet aren't shooting 26" or even 28" guns. |
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