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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:34:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Many use the buy a sword quote but conveniently forget the sole purpose was for fulfilling prophecy that He may be named among the transgressors. With swords and weapons that are now among the transgressors.
Jesus even rebuked the use of the sword. But most dont like what Jesus says so make their own Jesus in their own image |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:36:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Persecution for the sake of the Gospel, yes, I'm a pacifist (I will dine in heaven with my Lord after they kill me).
Persecution/violence to an innocent (myself or others) as a crime or otherwise, all bets are off. As a measure of last resort (try everything else first) to a tyrannical government or similar, all bets are off. Before anyone cites Romans 13, not taking the bait. See Doctrine of Lesser Magistrates and also examples of Hebrew midwives, Esther, lions den, Daniel's praying and Jesus himself. No rule of government is acceptable if it violates God's law. IMHO "give the other cheek" is not to be taken literally. Just my opinion, man :) |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:37:56 PM EDT
[#3]
God created all life. Self preservation and defense is seen across all life. Good enough for me.
This is the natural order of life. Which was created by Him. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:39:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Jesus talks about how the meek shall inherit the Earth, but meek means strength under control. You could call it well regulated.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:40:15 PM EDT
[#5]
So, let me get this straight, because I am a Christian, I should let some savages rape my wife and molest my children. I guess I should just let them burn my neighborhood down too while they're at it.
I will never understand how people can willing not defend themselves. There is a world of difference between offense and defense. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:41:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, let me get this straight, because I am a Christian, I should let some savages rape my wife and molest my children. I guess I should just let them burn my neighborhood down too while they're at it. I will never understand how people can willing not defend themselves. There is a world of difference between offense and defense. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:43:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Ever read the part about the strong man of the house? He didn't diss the strong man. Did he?
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:45:31 PM EDT
[#8]
In your day to day living, you should not be aggressive towards your enemies. Think of a heated argument you have with someone that escalates to violence. That is a no-no. But you don't have to be a pacifist. Can you not defend yourself if you are being attacked by a bear? Why would being attacked by a human be any different?
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:46:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Fyi, the turn the other cheek is not only about non violence but also about shaming.
If you slapped someone, it was with an open hand using the right hand. If you turned the other cheek, they’d have to slap you with a left hand which was a no no, or with the back of their right hand, which was reserved for slaves. Same with offering your cloak. Nakedness was a source of shame both to the one who was made naked and also to the one causing the nakedness. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:47:12 PM EDT
[#10]
My view is prob unpopular but I think both sides are right. The point of the NT is that it’s not the OT. It’s not 5000 pg of rules.
Try to act like Jesus. Don’t violate your conscience. If you think defending your fam is the right thing to do then don’t fail to do it. Don’t hesitate. If you think turning the other cheek and being pacifist is right, then do that. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:47:12 PM EDT
[#11]
You can find rationalizations for anything you want to do in the Bible.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:47:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever read the part about the strong man of the house? He didn't diss the strong man. Did he? |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#13]
All good responses so far, thank you
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:49:10 PM EDT
[#14]
I thought Christians turn the other cheek?
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:49:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Reincarnation is real so I don't care however I don't like to intentionally hurt/kill other beings and every time I do I know I'll pay for it later when I die and have to review all the shitty things I've done before my soul gets cleansed in the fires of gehinnom before my next incarnation.
Stepped on a snail in my yard a few times and realized I should look where I am stepping. But perhaps the snail and I had some interaction in previous lives and that was it balancing out. What scares me is when we are done reincarnating. I think we live in a simulation and the 'world to come' is like the Sublime in the show Westworld. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:50:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many use the buy a sword quote but conveniently forget the sole purpose was for fulfilling prophecy that He may be named among the transgressors. With swords and weapons that are now among the transgressors. Jesus even rebuked the use of the sword. But most dont like what Jesus says so make their own Jesus in their own image His disciples literally defended Jesus with a sword. Did he forget to tell those closest to him? |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:52:31 PM EDT
[#17]
A less used verse...
Nehemiah 4:17 Context: returned Jewish people are rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem, and the locals didn't like that. English Standard Version Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. King James Version They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon. Even the NRSV, fraught with political correctness, has it... New Revised Standard Version The burden bearers carried their loads in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and with the other held a weapon. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:53:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His disciples literally defended Jesus with a sword. Did he forget to tell those closest to him? John 18:11 Matthew 26:52 Jesus rebuked Peter straight to his face |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:54:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exodus 22:2 (KJV) If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. Am I incorrect in thinking that through Christ the Old law is null and void and followers of Him are bound to the New Covenant? |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:55:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Good enough for David, good enough for me.
“This day the LORD will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel.” Boom. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 4:56:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought Christians turn the other cheek? It does say turn the other cheek. No one goes to the hospital for a slapped cheek. You should exhaust every other option first but its our duty to protect ourselves and family from evil. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:12:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It does say turn the other cheek. No one goes to the hospital for a slapped cheek. You should exhaust every other option first but its our duty to protect ourselves and family from evil. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought Christians turn the other cheek? It does say turn the other cheek. No one goes to the hospital for a slapped cheek. You should exhaust every other option first but its our duty to protect ourselves and family from evil. Back in the day, they got crucified, or thrown to the lions. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:17:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Crusaders were/are right.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:18:50 PM EDT
[#24]
If God didn't want me to pop a cap in some degenerates ass he shouldn't have gave me a gun and sent degenerates to intrude on my life.
So far i haven't had to and hope i never will there is certainly something to be said for restraint and compassion even for those who seek to do you wrong. But i dont think any of that should be construed as you shouldn't defend yourself |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:25:30 PM EDT
[#25]
the Lord is my Shepard, I am but one of his sheep dogs
35 And he said to them, i"When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." 36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: k'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment." 38 And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough." My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; in the gun world we go by the motto "one is none and two is one" |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:28:53 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:33:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus talks about how the meek shall inherit the Earth, but meek means strength under control. You could call it well regulated. Quality interpretation... |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:34:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I incorrect in thinking that through Christ the Old law is null and void and followers of Him are bound to the New Covenant? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Exodus 22:2 (KJV) If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. Am I incorrect in thinking that through Christ the Old law is null and void and followers of Him are bound to the New Covenant? For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:36:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Luke, 22:36 - King James Bible
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:37:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. And yet, I’m not under the Law. So please explain. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:41:43 PM EDT
[#31]
34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword...
35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household." |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:43:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Persecution for the sake of the Gospel, yes, I'm a pacifist (I will dine in heaven with my Lord after they kill me). Persecution/violence to an innocent (myself or others) as a crime or otherwise, all bets are off. As a measure of last resort (try everything else first) to a tyrannical government or similar, all bets are off. Before anyone cites Romans 13, not taking the bait. See Doctrine of Lesser Magistrates and also examples of Hebrew midwives, Esther, lions den, Daniel's praying and Jesus himself. No rule of government is acceptable if it violates God's law. IMHO "give the other cheek" is not to be taken literally. Just my opinion, man :) I've come to think the 'give/turn the other cheek' means exactly that. Think about it: it's a tremendous insult, even today, for a man to slap another man. I think what Jesus is saying is that if someone insults you, let them. Being slapped on the cheek is just an insult. You should not fight back over a mere slight. I've also heard that by turning the other cheek, you'd force them to use the back of their hand to slap you again, which apparently is significant (I swear I heard using the back of your hand to hit was someone was somehow regarding as low in Christ's time). That said, I can't see Christ saying to let someone murder/rape/grievously injure yourself or other innocent unless it was in His name. If someone comes to kill me because I'm a (poor) Christian, so be it. If someone comes to kill me or mine just because, it's on. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:45:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Yes a religious thread in GD, don't like em then why did you click it? Inspired by a recent thread I want to know how my fellow Christians interpret the Bible in reference to self defense. I personally believe that to follow Christ, the true way in regard to this question pacifism. Matthew 5:44 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:38–39, 43–45 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. … 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. I'm not judging anyone who thinks differently, just curious as to how and why some other Christians may think different. God gave me the inherent right to defend myself. The Bible can appear to contradict that and I am ok with that. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:46:54 PM EDT
[#34]
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:47:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Perhaps not too far off topic, check out Joe Dolio and his book series Tactical Wisdom. Every chapter starts with a scripture verse and related topic.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:47:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've come to think the 'give/turn the other cheek' means exactly that. Think about it: it's a tremendous insult, even today, for a man to slap another man. I think what Jesus is saying is that if someone insults you, let them. Being slapped on the cheek is just an insult. You should not fight back over a mere slight. I've also heard that by turning the other cheek, you'd force them to use the back of their hand to slap you again, which apparently is significant (I swear I heard using the back of your hand to hit was someone was somehow regarding as low in Christ's time). That said, I can't see Christ saying to let someone murder/rape/grievously injure yourself or other innocent unless it was in His name. If someone comes to kill me because I'm a (poor) Christian, so be it. If someone comes to kill me or mine just because, it's on. I’ve heard it said before that Christ telling people to turn the other cheek wasn’t a bitch move. It was asking the other person to strike a Roman Citizen again, with the repercussions that came from doing that. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:49:11 PM EDT
[#37]
People in the past used the Bible to argue both for and against slavery. The same can be done with regard to self defense.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:50:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Old Testament violence is best.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:51:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I incorrect in thinking that through Christ the Old law is null and void and followers of Him are bound to the New Covenant? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Exodus 22:2 (KJV) If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. Am I incorrect in thinking that through Christ the Old law is null and void and followers of Him are bound to the New Covenant? The difference is now we have a way to be justified even though we violate the law. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:55:32 PM EDT
[#40]
You have every right in the eyes of God to protect yourself & family. Bible times used swords.
To think that the Bible says you can't is ignorant. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:56:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Would need to be a powerful filling of the Spirit for me not to silence that scenario.
Self Defense is not avoiding martyrdom... |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:56:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many use the buy a sword quote but conveniently forget the sole purpose was for fulfilling prophecy that He may be named among the transgressors. With swords and weapons that are now among the transgressors. Jesus even rebuked the use of the sword. But most dont like what Jesus says so make their own Jesus in their own image This. Everybody wants to be like Jesus until it's time to get nailed to a cross. The New Testament, to me, is clear on the issue. One reason I don't consider myself a Christian. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:58:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, I’m not under the Law. So please explain. First, cite the correct verse. Then, understand the law was impossible to keep, needing blood sacrifice for atonement. Then see the prophets prediction of Who the Messiah would be. Here’s an introduction: https://youtu.be/a3VTKKVtzrk 17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. And after the resurrection: Luke 24:44-47 American Standard Version 44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; 46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; 47 and that repentance [a]and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the [b]nations, beginning from Jerusalem |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:59:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many use the buy a sword quote but conveniently forget the sole purpose was for fulfilling prophecy that He may be named among the transgressors. With swords and weapons that are now among the transgressors. Jesus even rebuked the use of the sword. But most dont like what Jesus says so make their own Jesus in their own image Then again Jesus also flipped tables and started whipping people. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:59:46 PM EDT
[#45]
it is immoral to watch injustice. The scripture is interpreted in light of the totality of scripture.
I mean, wow, if that means what you think it means, just allow the enemy to kill you as a sacrifice. Pacifism is immoral. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 6:08:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, let me get this straight, because I am a Christian, I should let some savages rape my wife and molest my children. I guess I should just let them burn my neighborhood down too while they're at it. I will never understand how people can willing not defend themselves. There is a world of difference between offense and defense. There are many instances in the Bible of people defending themselves. Jesus said we are to defend the weak and vulnerable. Before they took him away he told disciples to sell cloaks and buy swords. They told him we have two and he said that was enough. Some take the turn the other cheek phrase too literally. Luke 11:21 - When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe, Psalm 18:34 - He trains my hands for war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze, Exodus 22:2 - If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 6:11:06 PM EDT
[#47]
RE turning the other cheek, Jesus was smitten on the cheek, but we have no evidence that he offered his other cheek.
TBH, I struggle with this subject myself. My current interpretation is that I will strive to be ready and able to defend myself at all times, while also being ready and able to hear the voice of the Spirit and stand down at all times. The bottom line is that no Scripture is complete without Divine Discernment. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 6:22:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many use the buy a sword quote but conveniently forget the sole purpose was for fulfilling prophecy that He may be named among the transgressors. With swords and weapons that are now among the transgressors. Jesus even rebuked the use of the sword. But most dont like what Jesus says so make their own Jesus in their own image Jesus is God the Son also known as The Word. Creator of all life and the God of the Old Testament as well as the New. When Jesus returns it will be as a military conquerer and king. The God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob is not a pacifist. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 6:26:36 PM EDT
[#49]
The disciples carried swords. Jesus knew it. If Christians were all pascifists Hitler would have slaughtered millions more, the United States would never have existed, we wouldn’t have police officers, etc.
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Posted: 11/27/2022 6:48:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, I’m not under the Law. So please explain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. And yet, I’m not under the Law. So please explain. I disagree, but it's something that each of us needs to get from scripture. |
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