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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:13:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csGWV541yjw
It seems the Key West Agreement did it in more than anything else. It looks like an Attack Helo if Silvan designed it. I remember reading about it. One of the prime reasons it was killed off wasn't Key West, it was it's performance envelope and attack profile put it square in the MANPAD sweet spot. Aren't Apaches using a similar attack profile in places like Afghanistan today? It is my understanding that the hovering-behind-shit attack profile the Apache was designed for has been abandoned. Can anyone enlighten me? these were designed to fight central europe, not 3rd world insurgents. check out syria videos. Helos are getting their ass handed to them. The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. Has Hellfire completely replaced TOW? |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:16:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk gunship is my favorite never-was.
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:16:54 PM EDT
[#3]
The Army is hellfire only on the Kiowa and Apache.
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:18:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt the Syrian owned Russian helicopters have any active or passive countermeasures. They're also flying directly overhead to roll improvised bombs out the back. 
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:19:40 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has Hellfire completely replaced TOW? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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[SNIP] The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. Has Hellfire completely replaced TOW? Oh yeah, a long time ago. They even have fire and forget missiles now. The optical guiding with wires was just a first step. |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:21:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I wonder what the AF will have to say when the V-280 and SB-1 have their fly-off. What's the J in JMR stand for? |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 4:23:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looks a lot like a gyro-copter  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csGWV541yjw
It seems the Key West Agreement did it in more than anything else. It looks like an Attack Helo if Silvan designed it. That looks a lot like a gyro-copter Nope. I. A gyro copter the main rotor s not powered by an engine. Forward motion drives air through the rotor from the underside, causing the main rotor to rotate and provide lift. The Cheyenne had a powered main rotor and a powered pusher prop. |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 7:38:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryDayum! That chopper should have come with wallets that say "Bad Mother Fucker". |
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Posted: 10/26/2013 8:09:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csGWV541yjw
It seems the Key West Agreement did it in more than anything else. It looks like an Attack Helo if Silvan designed it. I saw the one on display at the Airborne Museum at Ft Campbell Ky. For its time it was radical. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:31:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. Our AH-1s still fire them |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 1:52:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Never heard of the AH-56 but I'm surprised how much of its weapon technology survived to become part of the AH-64. The only thing the 56 has that the 64 didn't have equal or better than was the moving Co-pilot turret and 40mm grenade launcher. Obviously TOW missiles have been replaced by Hellfires but the rest of the tech (though more modern) is still there on the AH-64.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:15:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I recall correctly, they canceled it in part because some of the new Soviet AA and SAM systems coming online would of made sausage out of it. +1 single engine center located. There are a few pics of Apaches that had lost an engine to a MANPAD. AH-56 would of become an even more interesting aircraft over the years though, like we have seen out of the Huey and Cobra. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:26:48 AM EDT
[#13]
I saw one on a big flatbed trailer headed east when we lived in Arkansas in 1971. No rotors, just the fuselage. All strapped down and looking pitiful. I didn't know what it was till years later when I saw a model of one.
If I remember what I read back then it was the fastest helicopter in the world and the only one that could do barrel rolls. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 2:36:53 AM EDT
[#14]
I never heard of this bird either.
Thanks for posting this, OP. Fascinating stuff. It's weaknesses aside, I can imagine them blasting Russian HINDs out of the sky with near impunity! Or not. Seems like it would, though! |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 3:01:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our AH-1s still fire them Quote HistoryQuoted: Our AH-1s still fire them Quoted: The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. It was one of the most awesome things ever. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 3:01:35 AM EDT
[#16]
I always liked this one...
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Posted: 10/27/2013 3:13:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh yeah, a long time ago. They even have fire and forget missiles now. The optical guiding with wires was just a first step. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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[SNIP] The hovering behind shit only works during peace time while you practicing with unarmed helicopters. Try hovering a loaded gunship full of fuel and armaments at 10,000 ft. like in Afghanistan. When we came back from Vietnam and they introduced the hovering behind trees & hills to make long range guided rocket kills against armor concept, we said say what? I laughed when I heard that the Apaches quickly abandoned their hovering fire in favor of diving running fire much like we employed in Vietnam. Has Hellfire completely replaced TOW? Oh yeah, a long time ago. They even have fire and forget missiles now. The optical guiding with wires was just a first step. What I am most impressed with with the hellfire is the capacity of LOAL launches with radar hellfires... Fire the missile from cover, let it go ballistic and climb, pop up, acquire target with the radar (on the D Apache) , go back to hiding, wait for the hellfire to hit the target.. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 7:49:12 AM EDT
[#18]
I never realized it was single engine until I saw this thread. Not sure how I didn't notice that before.
I was just reading about the Army's AATES where they are testing 3000shp replacement engines for the T700. Makes me wonder if engines have almost come to the point where you could revert back to one engine. Yeah, there would be some power loss, but if you remove the weight of the second engine and its fuel, along with the combining gearbox, would you lose enough weight to make that work? I doubt the Army (or the Marines) would want to give up the redundancy of having a second engine, but it's an interesting thought experiment. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:02:19 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never heard of the AH-56 but I'm surprised how much of its weapon technology survived to become part of the AH-64. The only thing the 56 has that the 64 didn't have equal or better than was the moving Co-pilot turret and 40mm grenade launcher. Obviously TOW missiles have been replaced by Hellfires but the rest of the tech (though more modern) is still there on the AH-64. The Cheyenne was much faster. It was really half-airplane. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:04:07 AM EDT
[#20]
I always liked the AH-56 when going to the museum at Rucker growing up. Interestingly, last year I met a old flight school class mate of my dad's who was a test pilot on the AH-56. He said that he got volunteered for the project after flying C model gun ships in Vietnam . The gentleman said that it was a fast aircraft, but that it was unstable and almost killed him on one occasion during a test flight. He did not go into much more detail, but I will have to ask him more about it next time my dad and I go visit.
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:13:13 AM EDT
[#21]
While the AH-56 program showed promise, it faced many challenges.
Timing was the biggest challenge. The rotor and drivetrain technology to accomplish what they tried to was in its infancy. It was way ahead of its time and there were way too many issues left to be resolved before it could be fielded. The weapon technology was advanced compared to the AH-1 but not nearly advanced enough for the long term. As cool as the AH-56 seems, the Army came out ahead by waiting for the AH-64. The 56 could never have actually done what the 64 actually does. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:33:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think naming helicopters after Indian tribes is racist. IIRC The tribal types flipped out when the Army skipped a tribal name for the Cobra attack helicopter. You can't keep anyone I the minority grievance industry happy. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:40:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC The tribal types flipped out when the Army skipped a tribal name for the Cobra attack helicopter. You can't keep anyone I the minority grievance industry happy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think naming helicopters after Indian tribes is racist. IIRC The tribal types flipped out when the Army skipped a tribal name for the Cobra attack helicopter. You can't keep anyone I the minority grievance industry happy. The biggest letdown in the history of the naming convention was the cancellation of the ARH-70 Arapaho. I was really looking forward to starting every check-in brief with "Where da 'Ho's at?" 
And it doesn't matter how bad a day he's having... If I tell a ground guy that I have two 'Ho's inbound with 40 minutes time on station, he's gonna smile. 
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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:47:19 AM EDT
[#24]
I have an entire book about this chopper, one of my faves also.
The rotating gunner seat seemed pretty cool. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 9:03:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wish I could scan and imbed, I have a full sleeve of slides of this this taken during testing in Yuma and the rotor testing in Rye canyon at the rotor test facility in southern CA. My father was the test director of this bird. 9 built 8 remained after testing. The one lost was bad....did not end well for anyone with a rotor mast failure. Could hover in a 30 degree nose down attitude and reverse the pusher to allow backing with nose down on target orientation. One test was popping up over a hill, putting weapons and aiming computer on target and then backing back over hill for cover. Popping up and engaging targets plotted. Very effective for it's time. Computer simulation against a fully armed destroyer had the destroyer sunk. The army evaluation pilots used in Yuma were affectionately refereed to as APES (Army evaluation pilots) and I had the honor to meet one of their sons when I took my son to the Williams AFB closing. He was a Apache driver.....small world. One of my fathers team, later went to McDonald Douglas and work on the Apache program. I have some fond memories of Yuma and great pictures of the testing and in flight pics from the King Air chase plane used during in flight tests. The only bad memory was the look on Dad's face when he came home late (2AM) the day the one bird went down. White sheet recovery and crash investigation....Damn! Cool. My best friends father was one of the evaluation pilots to fly it. We lived near Ft Rucker where he normally flew. He was always heading out to Yuma. At that time I was too young to know or care about any of the details. During WW2 he flew with Pappy Boyington with VMF-214 flying the F-4U. He stayed a Marine Reservist for many, many years and retired from them as an O-6. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 10:31:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Cheyenne was much faster. It was really half-airplane. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Never heard of the AH-56 but I'm surprised how much of its weapon technology survived to become part of the AH-64. The only thing the 56 has that the 64 didn't have equal or better than was the moving Co-pilot turret and 40mm grenade launcher. Obviously TOW missiles have been replaced by Hellfires but the rest of the tech (though more modern) is still there on the AH-64. The Cheyenne was much faster. It was really half-airplane. My emphasis was on weapons tech. Powertrain wise, they are apples and oranges. However, I agree with your points. |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 10:49:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Never been done before.
Who thinks a modern AH-56 Cheyenne would be a great CAS weapon??? http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=533361 NYPatriot 1/3/2007 11:49:51 PM PDT |
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Posted: 10/27/2013 11:03:13 PM EDT
[#28]
On the subject of TOW vs. Hellfire, I always thought the AH-1Ws looked kinda interesting when they did the mix of TOW on one side and Hellfire on the other.
Kinda like This one which apparently has asymmetric rocket pods for some reason. Not enough room for the big ones with Hellfires? But for something that looks just completely wrong somehow, here's what I think is an old ass AH-1G with some Hellfires hanging off it. 
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Army is hellfire only on the Kiowa and Apache. For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 12:05:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I recall correctly, they canceled it in part because some of the new Soviet AA and SAM systems coming online would of made sausage out of it. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 12:11:25 AM EDT
[#30]
My favorite pic of it.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 12:28:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? Apache's still use rockets in theater. We set ours up with a rocket pod on one wing and hellfire rack on the other. I've seen Kiowas with 50cal on one side with rocket pod on the other as well as 50cal on one side and hellfire rack on the opposite side. I'll admit, I'm outta my lane with Kiowas. ETA: Apaches have room for one each on each wing but altitude/weight limitations usually dictate we use only one of each on each wing. I can remember one mission that for whatever reason, we set up with hellfire racks on both sides though it's rare. ETA2: add clarity |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 2:09:20 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is one on static display at Campbell. It is fucking massive. This, most people have no idea just how large this thing is. They had one on display at Ft Rucker About half way between a Cobra and a Chinook in size. I use to drool when i walked a round that. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 2:44:23 AM EDT
[#33]
The Navy looked at compound helo technology in a 60 variant, the YSH-60F (SpeedHawk). Navy even funded a demonstration project, but the additions that allow the aircraft to exhibit improved performance in speed and range reduce its performance as a helicopter - hover performance, useful load, etc. The Army took on the project, dubbed X-49, but did not select it for the JMR-TD.
YSH-60: 
X-49 |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 2:58:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Navy looked at compound helo technology in a 60 variant, the YSH-60F (SpeedHawk). Navy even funded a demonstration project, but the additions that allow the aircraft to exhibit improved performance in speed and range reduce its performance as a helicopter - hover performance, useful load, etc. The Army took on the project, dubbed X-49, but did not select it for the JMR-TD. YSH-60: http://www.aviastar.org/foto/piasecki_h-60.jpg X-49 http://www.flightglobal.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?ItemID=18367 yep. power limited is power limited. same reason why NOTARs aren't attractive for military use. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 4:38:17 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the J in JMR stand for? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder what the AF will have to say when the V-280 and SB-1 have their fly-off. What's the J in JMR stand for? Probably Joint. Pretty much any J in military acronyms these days stands for Joint. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:39:13 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the subject of TOW vs. Hellfire, I always thought the AH-1Ws looked kinda interesting when they did the mix of TOW on one side and Hellfire on the other. Kinda like This one which apparently has asymmetric rocket pods for some reason. Not enough room for the big ones with Hellfires? But for something that looks just completely wrong somehow, here's what I think is an old ass AH-1G with some Hellfires hanging off it. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n171/Der_Hans/bell-ah1-hueycobra_2_zps4199f63e.jpg For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the subject of TOW vs. Hellfire, I always thought the AH-1Ws looked kinda interesting when they did the mix of TOW on one side and Hellfire on the other. Kinda like This one which apparently has asymmetric rocket pods for some reason. Not enough room for the big ones with Hellfires? But for something that looks just completely wrong somehow, here's what I think is an old ass AH-1G with some Hellfires hanging off it. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n171/Der_Hans/bell-ah1-hueycobra_2_zps4199f63e.jpg Quoted:
The Army is hellfire only on the Kiowa and Apache. For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? Yep, clearly a G-Model Cobra. That's an interesting set-up. I notice no turret guns or other rocket pods on the wing hard-points. While the G might be able to carry some of those guided rockets, the limited engine power in the G might prohibit it being able to carry other weapons, which IMO would make it an unattractive platform for an attack helicopter. A typical modern day load-out for Apaches has 2.75" rocket pods on the outside wing hard-points and a rack of Hellfires on the inside location. There are many combinations of weapons that can be installed, as well as, amounts of weapons to be loaded depending on the mission and the location. High altitude work obviously limits the load you can carry with enough fuel to do the job and return to base. 
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:48:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryVery nice. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:04:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll get around to bitching about the army later. Gray Eagle opens up some possibilities. we'll see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My professor told me the air force scrapped it because it "Was able to shoot down and defeat most of their fighters" and that they saw it as a threat. Which is why they scrapped it. Sounded like a bunch of BS to me. Wasn't the AF's decision. It was the SECDEFs. The only thing the AF hates more than providing CAS to the Army is the Army providing CAS to the Army. They don't care who provides it for them, as long as they keep getting the money I'll get around to bitching about the army later. Gray Eagle opens up some possibilities. we'll see. This should be good... anti-Army CAS? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:15:50 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the subject of TOW vs. Hellfire, I always thought the AH-1Ws looked kinda interesting when they did the mix of TOW on one side and Hellfire on the other. Kinda like This one which apparently has asymmetric rocket pods for some reason. Not enough room for the big ones with Hellfires? But for something that looks just completely wrong somehow, here's what I think is an old ass AH-1G with some Hellfires hanging off it. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n171/Der_Hans/bell-ah1-hueycobra_2_zps4199f63e.jpg For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the subject of TOW vs. Hellfire, I always thought the AH-1Ws looked kinda interesting when they did the mix of TOW on one side and Hellfire on the other. Kinda like This one which apparently has asymmetric rocket pods for some reason. Not enough room for the big ones with Hellfires? But for something that looks just completely wrong somehow, here's what I think is an old ass AH-1G with some Hellfires hanging off it. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n171/Der_Hans/bell-ah1-hueycobra_2_zps4199f63e.jpg Quoted:
The Army is hellfire only on the Kiowa and Apache. For some reason when I picture Kiowas I tend to picture the little .50 caliber pod on one side and a little 7 shot rocket pack on the other rather than Hellfires. Are the Apaches carrying all hellfires because they just don't have a chance to employ rockets due to collateral damage concerns, or are they ditching rockets entirely for some reason I don't understand? Development of the AGM-114 Hellfire started in '74. It just wasn't fielded until '82. That G Model Cobra with Hellfire launchers is from that testing and development phase using ground designators. As for the OH-58D, it can be outfitted with one weapon system per side in any combination of: 7 shot 2.75" rocket pod .50 cal MG AGM-114 launcher (2 rails) The only combination you can't have is .50 and .50 because the .50 is restricted to the left pylon only. The weapon configuration is METT-T dependent. Obviously, there are serious weight issues with some of those potential configurations. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:25:36 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably Joint. Pretty much any J in military acronyms these days stands for Joint. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder what the AF will have to say when the V-280 and SB-1 have their fly-off. What's the J in JMR stand for? Probably Joint. Pretty much any J in military acronyms these days stands for Joint. How do you spell "joint"? A R M Y Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:27:33 AM EDT
[#41]
I would pay per view vids of Haji getting blasted with the 40mm grenades from above.
Don't that I don't appreciate you guys great work with the 30mm though |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:29:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think naming helicopters after Indian tribes is racist. It would be hilarious if they were ever used to move slot machines.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:30:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would pay per view vids of Haji getting blasted with the 40mm grenades from above. Don't that I don't appreciate you guys great work with the 30mm though Imagine if you will someone throwing hand grenades in your direction dozens at a time. HA!!!  The noise alone would cause you to shit your pants.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:46:53 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're also flying directly overhead to roll improvised bombs out the back. http://youtu.be/rFZ93lPTflQ
http://youtu.be/D22wJq_OXQcQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I doubt the Syrian owned Russian helicopters have any active or passive countermeasures. They're also flying directly overhead to roll improvised bombs out the back. http://youtu.be/rFZ93lPTflQ
http://youtu.be/D22wJq_OXQcOne Hind piloted by a Rhodesian expat was blowing the shit out of insurgents in Sierra Leone until it broke down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neall_Ellis |
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