Lastly, without spamming this thread into cut & paste hell, I would offer to the interested reader a summary of events leading up to, the turf wars between and a communication from Kallstrom to Hall over just what should and should not be discussed at a public hearing such as "FBI objects to the use of any of the 244 eyewitness FD-302s or summaries prepared from those FD-302s by the NTSB in connection with this hearing." and "Investigation For Missile/WarheadImpact/Bombs/Explosives; Residue Examination (exhibit 20I); PETN Findings, Small Explosive Charges" (becuase it would hamper a ":criminal investigation"

read & decide for yourselves....

ok, for what its worth, i used to work at a heavy aircraft repair station in north carolina. the faa invited something like 20 mechanics to do a walkthrough of the wreckage in, i think, 1999 or 2000. i was good friends with one of the guys that went. from what he said, the damage was consistent with an explosion in the center cell. i don't think that is in dispute. what i have a problem with is the ignition source.

John

Quoted: Quoted: To obliterate a 747 or similar sized aircraft, you need a large SAM along the lines of a SA-2 or RIM66/67 missiles.   Note.  Some of the Tinfoil types think the Navy used a RIM-66/67 SAM to down TWA 800 which is rubbish as the Continuous Rod warhead spews unbelieveable amounts of INDENTIFIABLE frag. SA-2 (200 Kg warhead) www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/sa-2-DDST8501311_JPG.jpg RIM-66 (137 lbs. (62 kg) continuous rod) www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/sm2-dvic458.jpg This hitting it would do it tho… my preferred hypothesis. img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/roboBQM34airdrop.gif Andy

Vito buddy, you're kidding me, right?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To obliterate a 747 or similar sized aircraft, you need a large SAM along the lines of a SA-2 or RIM66/67 missiles.   Note.  Some of the Tinfoil types think the Navy used a RIM-66/67 SAM to down TWA 800 which is rubbish as the Continuous Rod warhead spews unbelieveable amounts of INDENTIFIABLE frag. SA-2 (200 Kg warhead) www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/sa-2-DDST8501311_JPG.jpg RIM-66 (137 lbs. (62 kg) continuous rod) www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/sm2-dvic458.jpg This hitting it would do it tho… my preferred hypothesis. img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/roboBQM34airdrop.gif Andy Vito buddy, you're kidding me, right?

Nope… US Navy was shooting missles up range but I don't believe a Navy missile hit Flight 800

However one of these travelling off course at 500+ knots and running into a 747 would smash that plane to shit just with kinetic energy……

And these things do go into 'idiot mode' … every once in a while our Navy has to send a fighter after a target drone that gets a 'mind of its own' and goes walkabout.

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To obliterate a 747 or similar sized aircraft, you need a large SAM along the lines of a SA-2 or RIM66/67 missiles.   Note.  Some of the Tinfoil types think the Navy used a RIM-66/67 SAM to down TWA 800 which is rubbish as the Continuous Rod warhead spews unbelieveable amounts of INDENTIFIABLE frag. SA-2 (200 Kg warhead) www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/sa-2-DDST8501311_JPG.jpg RIM-66 (137 lbs. (62 kg) continuous rod) www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/sm2-dvic458.jpg This hitting it would do it tho… my preferred hypothesis. img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/roboBQM34airdrop.gif Andy Vito buddy, you're kidding me, right? Nope… US Navy was shooting missles up range but I don't believe a Navy missile hit Flight 800 However one of these travelling off course at 500+ knots and running into a 747 would smash that plane to shit just with kinetic energy…… And these things do go into 'idiot mode' … every once in a while our Navy has to send a fighter after a target drone that gets a 'mind of its own' and goes walkabout. Andy

A collision by a drone would do it, but it would have appeared on the radars with plenty enough time for Air Traffic control to steer all aircraft in its path out of the way.  Plus, I think the Navy would have made a contact with Air Traffic Control about a drone on walkabout, its not a career enhancing move  not to inform Civilian authorities about a target drone flying out of the range area into Civil airspace.  That would be embarrassing to the Navy and if you embarrass the Navy, your career is toast.

Personally I think the Illuminati is involved!

I don't trust my government at all!!!   I despise it

Quoted: I don't trust my government at all!!!   I despise it

That doesn't change the facts of the case, though...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A collision by a drone would do it, but it would have appeared on the radars with plenty enough time for Air Traffic control to steer all aircraft in its path out of the way.  Plus, I think the Navy would have made a contact with Air Traffic Control about a drone on walkabout, its not a career enhancing move  not to inform Civilian authorities about a target drone flying out of the range area into Civil airspace.  That would be embarrassing to the Navy and if you embarrass the Navy, your career is toast. Personally I think the Illuminati is involved!

It's a long shot I agree… but it's a hell of lot more plausible (it would be a classic Milspec FUBAR, "were's the drone Chief?… I lost it Sir!… ah! there it is… oh shit! there's a plane in its track!) than some of the tin foil conspiracies like RBS-70's fired from a pleasure boat by Iranians .

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A collision by a drone would do it, but it would have appeared on the radars with plenty enough time for Air Traffic control to steer all aircraft in its path out of the way.  Plus, I think the Navy would have made a contact with Air Traffic Control about a drone on walkabout, its not a career enhancing move  not to inform Civilian authorities about a target drone flying out of the range area into Civil airspace.  That would be embarrassing to the Navy and if you embarrass the Navy, your career is toast. Personally I think the Illuminati is involved! It's a long shot I agree… but it's a hell of lot more plausible (it would be a classic Milspec FUBAR, "were's the drone Chief?… I lost it Sir!… ah! there it is… oh shit! there's a plane in its track!) than some of the tin foil conspiracies like RBS-70's fired from a pleasure boat by Iranians .

I agree, your theory is MUCH more plausible and Mr. Murphy is always present for the chance to act on human error/mistake.

I don't think it was the Hadji's, they would have been proclaiming success against the infidels and it would have been great PR in the Arab world.

So that pretty much leaves Mechanical/Electrical failure, yes a spark off a wire is more than enough to ignite a jet fuel vapors.   Sometimes shit happens!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A collision by a drone would do it, but it would have appeared on the radars with plenty enough time for Air Traffic control to steer all aircraft in its path out of the way.  Plus, I think the Navy would have made a contact with Air Traffic Control about a drone on walkabout, its not a career enhancing move  not to inform Civilian authorities about a target drone flying out of the range area into Civil airspace.  That would be embarrassing to the Navy and if you embarrass the Navy, your career is toast. Personally I think the Illuminati is involved! It's a long shot I agree… but it's a hell of lot more plausible (it would be a classic Milspec FUBAR, "were's the drone Chief?… I lost it Sir!… ah! there it is… oh shit! there's a plane in its track!) than some of the tin foil conspiracies like RBS-70's fired from a pleasure boat by Iranians .

While there are exercise areas in the Long Island area, I'm not aware of a missile range there. Off the coast of VA, NC, PR, DE or MD and I'd believe it. Also I'm not aware of too many MISSILEX's that take place at night due to safety reasons.

Not to mention your theory, along with the SM-2 theory, would have too many witnesses to hide it from the public for near ten years. Also if the drone was heading towards the airliner the cruiser would have put out a warning on IAD. Nope too many holes in that theory, sorry.

Quoted: So that pretty much leaves Mechanical/Electrical failure, yes a spark off a wire is more than enough to ignite a jet fuel vapors.   Sometimes shit happens!

It probably was (a small failure triggering a catastrophic event) but the way the two *personalities* running the show handled it, made for great conspiracy fodder. Nothing like arrogance & denial to perk the ears of the curious, and to be honest there are far more questionable items surrounding this than some other mysteries. Arbitrarily dismissing input (from witnesses and experts with differing viewpoints than the party line) and having the CIA fudge simulations (that is documented) does little to instill credibility in one's findings.

Most egregious was Kallstrom's objecting to public dissemination of data so he could go after Sanders. (see the link on his letter to Hall) What was more important? Getting an open hearing of ALL the information on what killed several hundred people or squashing someone who dared question the bureau? Guess we know what happened there...

Seems the whole investigation was crippled by politics and egos (and the same happens in industry, sadly) - just let the Engineers & Scientists dissect the data, and keep the non-technical managers & political appointees from muddying the waters.

(oh yes, I think "the Navy did it" theory is the least likely of all)

Quoted: Remember that flight that left Long Island and went down after take off into the Atlantic (late 90's) What was the ruling on that? I don't recall any official answer. Witnesses claimed they saw a flash before it went down (ie: missile)

Ruling was no foul play, there was an explosion caused by a mechanical/electrical failure...

It has been the subject of conspiracy theories ever since, must centering on terrorist attack inside the plane, a terrorist-backed shoot-down with a shoulder fired missile (MANPADS, or MAN-Portable-Air-Defense-System), or that the US Govt shot it down on purpose or by accident...

While the first theory cannot be easily disproven with the information accessable to us (eg there is no way we, on the 'net, can attack or prove that it was a terrorist bomb), the other 3 can..

1) It is IMPOSSIBLE, flat out IMPOSSIBLE for that plane to have been hit by a MANPADS weapon, for several reasons:

(a) It was flying way way way too high. Shoulder fired weapons are for defense against CAS aircraft and helicopters, and as such cannot reach the altitude that TWA 800 was flying at.

(b) MANPADS weapons of the time were insufficient to bring down a commercial airliner with one hit. Civillian 747s have been hit on takeoff & on approach to Baghdad International in the current war. Every one of them has survived....

2/3) THe US Govt Conspiracy (tm) theory is inevitable with any non-natural disaster (wait, DU might come up with one saying the Hurricanes were manufactured by a secret Haliburton project to disenfranchise Florida Democrats, so... [lol2]) . The problem is that the plane was not within range of any USN vessel which could have achieved an accidental shoot-down, and if there was an on-purpose or accidental shoot, SOMEONE would have leaked it to the press by now. An AEGIS  (air defense) warship has a LARGE crew, and a fighter coming back w/o a missile is going to be noticed - the missile would have to be inventoried as expended, and so on... Too many people exist to effectively cover this up - they can't even keep minor political info 'secret', how would they manage that?

Any questions?

Quoted: While there are exercise areas in the Long Island area, I'm not aware of a missile range there. Off the coast of VA, NC, PR, DE or MD and I'd believe it. Also I'm not aware of too many MISSILEX's that take place at night due to safety reasons.

hmmm...

no less than four American aircraft when on March 17, 1997, subsequent to the TWA 800 downing, a missile was observed by Northwest Airlines 775, US Air 1937, Delta 2517 and Northwest Airlines 361.   Northwest Airlines Flight 775 was travelling from Newark to Minneapolis and Flight 361 from Laguardia to Minneapolis. Both flights departed at 6:55 PM and reported the missile about 15 Minutes into their flights. (Click to listen to the RealAudio Files. There is moderate static on the tapes - NWA 775 Radar sector 73 - US Air 1937 Radar sector 27 - Delta 2517 Radar sector 42) NWA 775: Air Center it looks like we see ah - this is Northwest 775 - on a southerly heading - a missile or something. Do you know anything about that? Controller: Northwest 775 - you see a what? NWA 775: It appears to be a missile on the south of our course here - straight south of us - off our left - it's climbing and heading south. Controller: Due south of your position, heading south? NWA 775: Yea, and climbing rapidly. Controller:  Going through about what altitude now? NWA 775: Oh man, it's like over 30,000 and on its way up. It was a rocket or a missile and I don't know - it's out of sight now. Controller: You think it was a rocket or a missile? NWA 775: Affirmative. It was extremely bright. Anybody else in the area I'm sure would have seen it. Controller: Roger Another Pilot:  Don't scare us! Controller:  Say again. Other Pilot: Don't scare us .... unintelligible Controller:  Definitely a missile of some sort. Multiple conversations somewhat garbled. Controller:  843 west of ?? reported spotting a missile 10 south of his position heading south .... Other Controller:  They're all talking about it. USA 1937: Holy ?Mary - (unintelligible) a ?240 heading -   Did you see that? Controller:  What did we miss? USA 1937: A rocket going up to the southeast of our ?180 Controller: From who? USA 1937:  US Air 1937 Another pilot: It sure is. Controller: How far away do you think? USA 1937: ?God only knows. Controller: Little Aberdeen is out there that' why I'm asking. It's about ninety miles away from you so it could be there they do that rocket testing. USA 1937: Yeah it was about 170 degrees from us and I don't know about how far. Controller: Yeah that would be about right. USA 1937: Yeah it was off our left wing tip. Another pilot: Where did that rocket launch from? Controller: I didn't know anything about it. The only thing I'm guessing from where the US Air told me was the direction was correct for Aberdeen proving grounds. Other pilot: Unintelligible...  Commuter 533  ... 180 heading and about six miles from my position. It was definitely a rocket. Controller: Yea that would be a little bit to the west of Aberdeen but I guess it's hard to be exact. Other pilot: Yea  I just looked at it and saw a plume coming out of it and then it disappeared but the plume is still there. Delta 2517: Center, Delta 2517. Controller: Go ahead. Delta 2517: You guys do you have any missile launches or anything tonight? Controller: I believe there is one .... I don't know what the status is. Delta 2517: Well it just went up - ... we just lost .. .... pretty awesome off the left side. Controller: OK - you could see it. ..... Unintelligible .... We are .... all the traffic for it. Delta 2517:  Where did that thing come from? Controller: I don't know. Delta 2517: I was sitting here thinking the comet looks good tonight. Man ...

Quoted: Quoted: Remember that flight that left Long Island and went down after take off into the Atlantic (late 90's) What was the ruling on that? I don't recall any official answer. Witnesses claimed they saw a flash before it went down (ie: missile) Ruling was no foul play, there was an explosion caused by a mechanical/electrical failure...

are we talking about Swissair 111 or EgyptAir 990? Former rumored to be electrical in origin, latter was a copilot suicide (not mentioning religion)

It has been the subject of conspiracy theories ever since, must centering on terrorist attack inside the plane, a terrorist-backed shoot-down with a shoulder fired missile (MANPADS, or MAN-Portable-Air-Defense-System), or that the US Govt shot it down on purpose or by accident... While the first theory cannot be easily disproven with the information accessable to us (eg there is no way we, on the 'net, can attack or prove that it was a terrorist bomb), the other 3 can.. 1) It is IMPOSSIBLE, flat out IMPOSSIBLE for that plane to have been hit by a MANPADS weapon, for several reasons: (a) It was flying way way way too high. Shoulder fired weapons are for defense against CAS aircraft and helicopters, and as such cannot reach the altitude that TWA 800 was flying at.

Nope. It is UNLIKELY that a MANPADS like the Stinger hit TWA800, but (depending on whose altitude data you accept) there are MANPADS (see the Chinese/Pakistani model in my earlier post) with ceilings in excess of 13,000 feet (roughly the height at which 800 exploded)

(b) MANPADS weapons of the time were insufficient to bring down a commercial airliner with one hit. Civillian 747s have been hit on takeoff & on approach to Baghdad International in the current war. Every one of them has survived....

the DHL plane @ Baghdad was an Airbus unless there was another plane you were referring to?

I'd guess a MANPADS could ignite fuel as well as a mystery spark from an unknown source. You will need anywhere from 1 mJ to a few hundred Joules to ignite the mixture, depending on temperature (see CalTech paper link, posted earlier)

2/3) THe US Govt Conspiracy (tm) theory is inevitable with any non-natural disaster (wait, DU might come up with one saying the Hurricanes were manufactured by a secret Haliburton project to disenfranchise Florida Democrats, so... [lol2]) . The problem is that the plane was not within range of any USN vessel which could have achieved an accidental shoot-down, and if there was an on-purpose or accidental shoot, SOMEONE would have leaked it to the press by now. An AEGIS  (air defense) warship has a LARGE crew, and a fighter coming back w/o a missile is going to be noticed - the missile would have to be inventoried as expended, and so on... Too many people exist to effectively cover this up - they can't even keep minor political info 'secret', how would they manage that?

Agreed, I think "the Navy did it" theory falls apart. I don't think the US Government not doing it eliminates other groups from suspicion,

I think this is the third time we've covered this in the last couple of years.  I wasn't going to post...but the tinfoil got on a bit too tight so here goes.

In my previous life, for three years, I was a Naval Sea Systems Command missile test officer.  I specialized in testing of AAW missiles like STANDARD, Seasparrow and Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM), something akin to a Stinger except faster and with a longer range.

There are a few technical errors in previous postings...but nothing worth writing home about.

The key issues are:

Was TWA Flt 800 shot down by a MANPADS?

I spoke with the Navy Captain in charge of the technical investigation on this very issue.  He stated that while it might be physically "possible", the odds against a successful intercept of a "stinger-type" missile from a boat perfectly placed in the flight path of the aircraft were extremely slim.  The geometry mandated a boat.  Land based firing would not work.

Even if the intercept could be consummated, the small warhead size and engagement endgame with a "stinger-type" missile normally means that an aircraft the size of a 747 would survive.  All man-portable systems use some model of an IR/UV seeker for targeting.  Take out  an engine:  Yes.  Bring down the plane:  Not likely.  There was no indication of damage to Flt 800 from a missile.

Was TWA Flt 800 shot down by a Navy vessel?

Not a chance.  The nearest STANDARD Missle configured ship was a cruiser then operating over 200 miles to the south in the Virginia Capes OPAREA.  The STANDARD Missile does not have sufficient range to achieve a successful intercept.  I'm not even going to waste my time attempting to describe the problems with hiding the loss of the missile and keeping the crew silent...!

Was TWA Flt 800 downed by a collision with a Navy drone?

No.  The nearest drone control facility is the Navy's Surface Combat Systems Center at the NASA Wallops Island Flight Test Facility on the Virginia Eastern Shore by Chincoteague.  They have several radars there that are part of the NORAD network.  They fly drones there all the time, in fact we're getting ready to fly some soon.  Typically a test scenario calling for a test drone has the target fly out to sea, then fly in to the beach where the radars under test are located.  The flight paths are adjusted to try and emulate real aircraft or missiles as much as possible.  They are NOT flown off the range and they usually don't get much over  1,000 MSL in altitude.  They also have a limited range.  I serously doubt if a BQM-34S (One of my fav targets.) has the gas to make it to the crash site.  If the drone strays, the controllers simply pop the chute and the thing floats down.  If they lose control, the drone kills the flight itself and pops its chute.

Flt 800 was climbing, probably at a speed of about 250kts IAS.  Drone speed typically isn't much faster so it would have to climb and achieve a narrow cone of courses well in front of the 747 to achieve an intercept.  A VERY difficult problem for a little plane with a top speed of about M.8 or about 485kts.

Finally had any drones strayed...then come up missing, then impacted Flt 800, it could not have been kept a secret.

Did TWA Flt 800 suffer a catastrophic explosion due to chafed wiring in a fuselage fuel tank sparking and detonating fuel vapors?

Probably.  All indicators point to that.  I certainly am in no position to state one way or another...but this is the most logical.  In any investigation like this, one must take the Sherlock Holmes path...look for the most obvious first.  When all of the crazy theories are invalidated...then what is left?  Logic.

Was TWA Flt 800 blown up by an onboard bomb?

Possibly...but again, the published reports all indicate no.

Now I know none of this is going to satisfy some of you tinfoilhatters...you conspiracacists.  The course of this thread has changed a couple of times already and all sorts of crazy notions about other conspiracies are running rampant here now.  Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that I've not heard the one about our Purity Of Essence yet, though given enough time, I think we will.

Quoted: Quoted: ...To tell you the truth, that attack reminds me of Middle Eastern terrorist organzation except the executers of the plan happened to be white guys.  Everything else about the attack is line for line out of the Middle Eastern Car/Truck bomb playbook, heck the Hadji's taught the IRA how to do them. So you wouldn't be suprised to hear that Nichols traveled to the Philipines and met with known Al-Queda operatives before the blast?  'Cause that's exactly what happened. There were also a bunch of eyewitness reports that place men of Middle-Eastern appearance with McVeigh in the days leading up to the attack. Of course, eyewitness accounts are unreliable, and the FBI sort of "lost" those files until after McVeigh was sentenced. Go figure.

Small problem: The Murrah building was the 'wrong kind' of target for AQ. A minor federal office building in an odd corner of the country...

It was the right kind of target for a uni-bomber type domestic kook...

Islamic Jihad does not operate outside of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. They focus on Israeli targets, just like Hamas...

Abu Sayaf, while linked to Al Queda, is too small to leave their perticular island in the Phillipines. They are a FARC-style revolutionary group who's main MO is kidnapping westerners for ransom.

McVeigh/Nicols did it, ALONE.

EODTech: Yeah, it's a typical ME style attack (big bomb in a truck). However, that is hardly a novel idea, especially given the size of the bomb....

Quoted: Was TWA Flt 800 shot down by a MANPADS? I spoke with the Navy Captain in charge of the technical investigation on this very issue.  He stated that while it might be physically "possible", the odds against a successful intercept of a "stinger-type" missile from a boat perfectly placed in the flight path of the aircraft were extremely slim.  The geometry mandated a boat.  Land based firing would not work.

Agreed, it was a longshot, but not impossible. The Chinese missile (being produced in Pakistan by 1994) was notable in that it's range capability exceeded that of the Stinger. I've never stated that is what I believe happened, simply that to say it could not have been a MANPADS is incorrect.

Even if the intercept could be consummated, the small warhead size and engagement endgame with a "stinger-type" missile normally means that an aircraft the size of a 747 would survive.  All man-portable systems use some model of an IR/UV seeker for targeting.  Take out  an engine:  Yes.  Bring down the plane:  Not likely.

Suggest you take a look at the IR thermal imaging of the 747 (posted a page or two back) - In addition to the engines, note the packs directly beneath the center fuel tank. Furthermore, consider that from underneath, as an approaching missile would "see" the plane, the (hot) internal engine components would be less visible (in the IR spectrum) than a head-on or aft view. If a missile hit under the center tank, it is certainly possible that it would have ignited same (just as the mystery spark could have)

There was no indication of damage to Flt 800 from a missile.

that is a point of contention, with the vigorous prosecution of Sanders (who claimed testing found residue) and FBI objection to public hearing of same data raising the question.

If the 90% of the plane recovered figure stated by another poster is accurate, that means that  10% remains missing, which 10% that is, and if it was in an afected area, is unknown.

This is the statement that is to be accepted, while the eyewitness testimony of hundreds (see some of the reports, posted earlier) is disregarded. The statement "there is no indication of damage to Flt 800 from a missile" cannot of itself prove or disprove what happened, as the entire craft would have to be recovered, inspected, and done so openly

Was TWA Flt 800 shot down by a Navy vessel?

Agreed, (along with tossing out the drone theory) Nothing I could find puts either in the realm of even remote likelihood.

Did TWA Flt 800 suffer a catastrophic explosion due to chafed wiring in a fuselage fuel tank sparking and detonating fuel vapors? Probably.  All indicators point to that.  I certainly am in no position to state one way or another...but this is the most logical.  In any investigation like this, one must take the Sherlock Holmes path...look for the most obvious first.  When all of the crazy theories are invalidated...then what is left?  Logic.

Logic says you look at the data and see what is possible, and what is not. Not ignore witnesses and have the CIA doctor simulations to make a good dog & pony show for public consumption. The data may be good, the team leaders and presentations were not. (and yes, this is probably the most likely culprit - but a lot of things still don't quite fit)

Was TWA Flt 800 blown up by an onboard bomb? Possibly...but again, the published reports all indicate no.

Could be a bomb (again, see the Sanders fiasco and Kallstrom telling Hall (IN WRITING) that he didn't want residue discussed in OPEN HEARINGS because he wanted to nail Sanders) That's not good detective work, that's not good science, that's throwing a snit. Politics -1 Science - 0

Now I know none of this is going to satisfy some of you tinfoilhatters...you conspiracacists.

Ridicule is fun, but doesn't resolve the questions. I think it's great we have experienced people (in all kinds of different fields) to throw their 2 bits in, toss a theory out and see if it holds water or shoot it down (with data) if it doesn't. That's how failure analysis is done.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...To tell you the truth, that attack reminds me of Middle Eastern terrorist organzation except the executers of the plan happened to be white guys.  Everything else about the attack is line for line out of the Middle Eastern Car/Truck bomb playbook, heck the Hadji's taught the IRA how to do them. So you wouldn't be suprised to hear that Nichols traveled to the Philipines and met with known Al-Queda operatives before the blast?  'Cause that's exactly what happened. There were also a bunch of eyewitness reports that place men of Middle-Eastern appearance with McVeigh in the days leading up to the attack. Of course, eyewitness accounts are unreliable, and the FBI sort of "lost" those files until after McVeigh was sentenced. Go figure. Small problem: The Murrah building was the 'wrong kind' of target for AQ. A minor federal office building in an odd corner of the country... It was the right kind of target for a uni-bomber type domestic kook... Islamic Jihad does not operate outside of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. They focus on Israeli targets, just like Hamas... Abu Sayaf, while linked to Al Queda, is too small to leave their perticular island in the Phillipines. They are a FARC-style revolutionary group who's main MO is kidnapping westerners for ransom. McVeigh/Nicols did it, ALONE. EODTech: Yeah, it's a typical ME style attack (big bomb in a truck). However, that is hardly a novel idea, especially given the size of the bomb....

I would not be surprised that the McViegh crew got their basic design and how to employ the bomb from the Middle East. This is exactly what IRA did, they sent guys down to learn the art of the truck bomb and explosives from the Hadji's.  The IRA pioneered the use of ANFO as they did not have  crap loads of TNT (Before they got a shit load of SEMTEX)like the Hadji's had on hand and they had  to be frugal with it.

I think there were more people involved from that separateist "town" in OK(?), when I was in EOD, we would talk about this quite a bit during lunch back in the Unit.  We all believed there were more people involved most probably as indirect support.    But without a doubt I think McViegh is the main man.  He was intelligent, driven, and very angry - those traits can be a very dangerous mix.  

Here are a the diagrams McViegh sketched for his attorney of his truck bomb, the first one is the most detailed.
members.cox.net/eodtech2000/EOD/mcveighsketch1.jpg
members.cox.net/eodtech2000/EOD/mcveighsketch2.jpg

So we all agree then?

Agree with LWilde? Yes.

On The History Channel tonight at 10 EST...

www.historychannel.com/global/listings/listings.jsp?NetwCode=THC