Quoted: Quoted: One of the reasons I like to buy guns FTF with cash, no names or paperwork. My paperless collection is getting larger than the papered one. [.gov] That's nice to know. [/.gov]

+1

Learn how to run a milling machine and a lathe, and you won't have to worry about confiscation -- they take one away, you make another.  No problem.

If it actualy happens like that then WE THE PEOPLE have failed our country.  

Quoted: If you are afraid of what they might do to you for not surrendering your guns, just imagine how afraid you will be of what they WILL do to you AFTER you surrender them. Gun confiscation is a prelude to genocide, tyranny, and oppression. If you don't want be be a helpless victim of it, then NEVER surrender your gun, and use it for the self-defense and preservation of your liberties, like a red-blooded American man is supposed to do.

+1 on that reply.

Quoted: Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government. Even if some thug has repeatedly stabbed you with a large knife and threatened to rape your six-year old daughter, they won't forgive you for having the gun. They may even give you extra penalties for using it to save your family. Especially if you are one of the first few hundred people caught this way, they will use you to "set an example".

Already happened in England to an old farmer confronted by a repeat offender and Martial Arts expert.  Without the gun he might be dead today.  Instead of serving a longer prison sentance than his attacker.

Quoted: Oh, and every cop Citizen is a 'sercret policeman' defender of the constitution when he wears a black ski-mask and carries a battle rifle...

Thats better already.

I first thought it said Souter instead of Sutter.

Isn't there a 5 year limit on how long a Gun Store has to keep ATF records on Gun purchases and Sales? This used to be the case. And I know it still applies to Explosives.

Any Gun Store owner would destroy unnecessary paperwork as soon as they could. If the ATF enters your place of business all records on the premises are subject to inspection. The less you have the less chance they will find something wrong.

Quoted: I didn't see this posted yet, if so too bad. By John A. Sutter For decades I have heard gun owners claim that the government would never be able to confiscate our firearms because the government would lose too many men. The implication being, of course, that gun owners would actively resist confiscation, even to the point of shooting back. But I believe this thinking is outdated and doesn't align very well with reality. But before you tell me how big your honor guard in Hell will be when that day comes, let's think about how the government could really do it. Suppose, for the sake of argument, the government bans all civilian possession of firearms at the end of this month. Congress passes a total ban and the President cuts his own re-election throat by signing it. * Gun owners get some grace period to turn them in, even beyond the deadline, without being charged with a crime. If we use Australia and Britain as examples there will still be a significant number of firearms that are not turned in. Some estimates put the Australian turn-in at less than 25% and the British faired only about 28%. But Australians and the British have long been used to obeying almost every gun control law. Not so the Americans. When laws are passed that we don't like, we bite. We scratch. We vote. So here we sit after the guns have been collected and the amnesties have run out. Now what? Send out the personnel carriers, swat and shock troops to seize the guns from those militia "terrorists" who refused to turn them in? Don't be silly. * The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of "surrendered" guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It'll take more time for them to attempt to "clean up" their data. Say, about two years, maybe three. Add to that the hordes of people keypunching in hundreds of thousands of sales and registration records from hundreds of gun stores forced out of business. At some point the government decides they have something approaching a "good" database of unaccounted-for guns. * The next thing you'll get from the government is an official looking notice that they think you still have a firearm. Their information will probably include all the information from registration forms, right down to the serial number. That notice will tell you that you're in violation of the law, subject to prosecution and imprisonment. It will give you some period of time to surrender the gun. It will also give you a very limited number of days to return the form with an explanation of why you don't have the gun, any proof you have, and your signature that the gun was lawfully disposed of. For many people the idea that the government "knows" they didn't turn in that pistol or rifle and they have the detailed information about it will be enough to get them to surrender the gun. Some people will ignore the letter, others will scrawl a note that "I sold this in 1982 in a private sale". After some time, the government will figure out how many guns are still out there and what the "compliance rate" is with the gun ban. More importantly, they'll start sorting their database by the number of guns someone supposedly has "unaccounted". * If you think they'll come at these multiple-gun owners with a swat team, guess again. Their most likely tactic will be yet another letter (maybe two more) that generate what they'll call "insufficient responses". That means they can't track a gun after you owned it. This they'll use as fodder for a search warrant and/or perjury charges at a later date if they can. My guess is that the time between April and August will be a bad time for a lot of "former" gun owners. * Remember that the BATF is an arm of the Treasury department and they control the IRS. You'll probably get a notice in the mail that the IRS has some questions about your taxes or wants to audit you. When you make the appointment to visit the IRS they will pass that information to the BATF. While you are sweating over your deductions, the BATF and local police will execute a search warrant and search your home looking for guns. With you safely off site and distracted, essentially forced into "the royal presence" of the IRS they will snag your guns. * Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too. * If you are one of the those people they suspect of having multiple guns and they don't find any guns at your home, expect them to find and search storage facilities, safety deposit boxes and other places you might use. Warn your relatives who live nearby that they can expect a visit too, even (or perhaps especially) if they never owned a gun. If they are thorough, I'd expect the government agents to check your neighbors to see which of them previously owned a gun and perhaps search their homes, arguing that your neighbor could have held your guns while agents searched your home. Remember that at this point the government authorities don't have much to fear from the general population. And by the time your complaints are run through the mill, rejected and turned into lawsuits, they'll have changed the rules. * But you only have one gun you say? Fine. They won't come looking for it. But they will make sure that possession of ammunition is also a serious crime. Don't leave any loose cartridges around and where will you hide that case of ammo you rushed out to buy? Expect any "gun parts" to be made illegal at some point in time too. Spare magazines, maybe even old cleaning kits. * Anything that says "gun" will be interpreted as "probable cause" to search your entire home. * Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government. Even if some thug has repeatedly stabbed you with a large knife and threatened to rape your six-year old daughter, they won't forgive you for having the gun. They may even give you extra penalties for using it to save your family. Especially if you are one of the first few hundred people caught this way, they will use you to "set an example". This will cause people to "bury" their guns away in hiding places, making them all but useless. If the government does come to confiscate it, you won't be able to get to it fast enough and they will probably find it. * You've moved several times since you bought a gun? Remember showing your ID when you bought a gun? Remember writing down your place of birth? Why do you think the government has so many computers? Linking you to your new driver's license in another state shouldn't be too hard. Besides, the Treasury folks know where you work. Think you're safe because you had unregistered guns? Think again. I would expect that the government's database will contain a lot of old data. Some of it might indicate that a gun was sold to a resident at your address. If they can tie you to ammo sales or range use with your credit card in the previous 2 years you might get a surprise visit. Or that seller might have remembered you bought that gun from him and filled out his gun notice to get "off the hook" for that gun. * The point of this article is that by thinking in limited terms of a "raid" to confiscate guns we lose sight of the alternative methods the government can use. Put yourself in the government's position and think of your own methods to avoid a conflict. Meanwhile, let's ensure that every gun owner votes for gun rights this year and the next. You can think of a thousand excuses not to vote, not to help a campaign, not to help another gun owner register to vote. I can think of one important reason to do all of those. * Liberty! www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564

*  At any point a guerilla insurggency can be launched.  I will leave the strategy and tactics to your imagination at this point but sitting in your home waiting for them is pussified bullshit.  The same people who might undertake this do not live in a bubble.
Further, if you cannot find a place to cache a couple in case your's are confiscated then you haven't given any of this much thought at all.

I swear some of you here, and for that matter, most of the men in this country anymore, don't have the testicular fortitude God gave a squirrel.

Quoted: I agree, up to a certain point. Eventually, they will get greedy. When they get greedy, they will force their hand.

Absolutely. They are almost beside themselves with the Republicans in power and when they get it back I think they will move more quickly.

tag

Quoted: Isn't there a 5 year limit on how long a Gun Store has to keep ATF records on Gun purchases and Sales? This used to be the case. And I know it still applies to Explosives. Any Gun Store owner would destroy unnecessary paperwork as soon as they could. If the ATF enters your place of business all records on the premises are subject to inspection. The less you have the less chance they will find something wrong.

I think the records requirement is now 20 years!

This is why no one knows about my guns. Not even the  .gov.  

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't see this posted yet, if so too bad. By John A. Sutter For decades I have heard gun owners claim that the government would never be able to confiscate our firearms because the government would lose too many men. The implication being, of course, that gun owners would actively resist confiscation, even to the point of shooting back. But I believe this thinking is outdated and doesn't align very well with reality. But before you tell me how big your honor guard in Hell will be when that day comes, let's think about how the government could really do it. Suppose, for the sake of argument, the government bans all civilian possession of firearms at the end of this month. Congress passes a total ban and the President cuts his own re-election throat by signing it. * Gun owners get some grace period to turn them in, even beyond the deadline, without being charged with a crime. If we use Australia and Britain as examples there will still be a significant number of firearms that are not turned in. Some estimates put the Australian turn-in at less than 25% and the British faired only about 28%. But Australians and the British have long been used to obeying almost every gun control law. Not so the Americans. When laws are passed that we don't like, we bite. We scratch. We vote. So here we sit after the guns have been collected and the amnesties have run out. Now what? Send out the personnel carriers, swat and shock troops to seize the guns from those militia "terrorists" who refused to turn them in? Don't be silly. * The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of "surrendered" guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It'll take more time for them to attempt to "clean up" their data. Say, about two years, maybe three. Add to that the hordes of people keypunching in hundreds of thousands of sales and registration records from hundreds of gun stores forced out of business. At some point the government decides they have something approaching a "good" database of unaccounted-for guns. * The next thing you'll get from the government is an official looking notice that they think you still have a firearm. Their information will probably include all the information from registration forms, right down to the serial number. That notice will tell you that you're in violation of the law, subject to prosecution and imprisonment. It will give you some period of time to surrender the gun. It will also give you a very limited number of days to return the form with an explanation of why you don't have the gun, any proof you have, and your signature that the gun was lawfully disposed of. For many people the idea that the government "knows" they didn't turn in that pistol or rifle and they have the detailed information about it will be enough to get them to surrender the gun. Some people will ignore the letter, others will scrawl a note that "I sold this in 1982 in a private sale". After some time, the government will figure out how many guns are still out there and what the "compliance rate" is with the gun ban. More importantly, they'll start sorting their database by the number of guns someone supposedly has "unaccounted". * If you think they'll come at these multiple-gun owners with a swat team, guess again. Their most likely tactic will be yet another letter (maybe two more) that generate what they'll call "insufficient responses". That means they can't track a gun after you owned it. This they'll use as fodder for a search warrant and/or perjury charges at a later date if they can. My guess is that the time between April and August will be a bad time for a lot of "former" gun owners. * Remember that the BATF is an arm of the Treasury department and they control the IRS. You'll probably get a notice in the mail that the IRS has some questions about your taxes or wants to audit you. When you make the appointment to visit the IRS they will pass that information to the BATF. While you are sweating over your deductions, the BATF and local police will execute a search warrant and search your home looking for guns. With you safely off site and distracted, essentially forced into "the royal presence" of the IRS they will snag your guns. * Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they'll search your car in the IRS parking lot too. * If you are one of the those people they suspect of having multiple guns and they don't find any guns at your home, expect them to find and search storage facilities, safety deposit boxes and other places you might use. Warn your relatives who live nearby that they can expect a visit too, even (or perhaps especially) if they never owned a gun. If they are thorough, I'd expect the government agents to check your neighbors to see which of them previously owned a gun and perhaps search their homes, arguing that your neighbor could have held your guns while agents searched your home. Remember that at this point the government authorities don't have much to fear from the general population. And by the time your complaints are run through the mill, rejected and turned into lawsuits, they'll have changed the rules. * But you only have one gun you say? Fine. They won't come looking for it. But they will make sure that possession of ammunition is also a serious crime. Don't leave any loose cartridges around and where will you hide that case of ammo you rushed out to buy? Expect any "gun parts" to be made illegal at some point in time too. Spare magazines, maybe even old cleaning kits. * Anything that says "gun" will be interpreted as "probable cause" to search your entire home. * Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government. Even if some thug has repeatedly stabbed you with a large knife and threatened to rape your six-year old daughter, they won't forgive you for having the gun. They may even give you extra penalties for using it to save your family. Especially if you are one of the first few hundred people caught this way, they will use you to "set an example". This will cause people to "bury" their guns away in hiding places, making them all but useless. If the government does come to confiscate it, you won't be able to get to it fast enough and they will probably find it. * You've moved several times since you bought a gun? Remember showing your ID when you bought a gun? Remember writing down your place of birth? Why do you think the government has so many computers? Linking you to your new driver's license in another state shouldn't be too hard. Besides, the Treasury folks know where you work. Think you're safe because you had unregistered guns? Think again. I would expect that the government's database will contain a lot of old data. Some of it might indicate that a gun was sold to a resident at your address. If they can tie you to ammo sales or range use with your credit card in the previous 2 years you might get a surprise visit. Or that seller might have remembered you bought that gun from him and filled out his gun notice to get "off the hook" for that gun. * The point of this article is that by thinking in limited terms of a "raid" to confiscate guns we lose sight of the alternative methods the government can use. Put yourself in the government's position and think of your own methods to avoid a conflict. Meanwhile, let's ensure that every gun owner votes for gun rights this year and the next. You can think of a thousand excuses not to vote, not to help a campaign, not to help another gun owner register to vote. I can think of one important reason to do all of those. * Liberty! www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564 *  At any point a guerilla insurggency can be launched.  I will leave the strategy and tactics to your imagination at this point but sitting in your home waiting for them is pussified bullshit.  The same people who might undertake this do not live in a bubble. Further, if you cannot find a place to cache a couple in case your's are confiscated then you haven't given any of this much thought at all. I swear some of you here, and for that matter, most of the men in this country anymore, don't have the testicular fortitude God gave a squirrel.

Don't forget the legal battles as soon as something like that is passed.  You figure the NRA has the money told hold up the issue in Federal Courts for years not to mention individuals that sue the government for seize their property without compensation.

tagged for reference.

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't see this posted yet, if so too bad. <snip> Liberty! www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10564 *  At any point a guerilla insurggency can be launched.  I will leave the strategy and tactics to your imagination at this point but sitting in your home waiting for them is pussified bullshit.  The same people who might undertake this do not live in a bubble. Further, if you cannot find a place to cache a couple in case your's are confiscated then you haven't given any of this much thought at all. I swear some of you here, and for that matter, most of the men in this country anymore, don't have the testicular fortitude God gave a squirrel.

Big +1

It's a good thing the Founding Fathers had what it took.  They took risks that seem unimaginable today.  They were seditionists, traitors to the crown, and in the minority of the population.  Yet they created the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

Now, everyone whines and cries because some pussy legislator uses gun control as a re-election topic with the sheep.  Oh please, don't take our guns...  Boo Hoo!

Or, you get the condescending tone of, "your tinfoil is too tight" from those who can't see the big picture as the chess pieces are moved into position.  There's no conspiracy here.  No one will come for your gun.  Australia and the U.K.?  Don't mean nothing.  They don't have the 2nd.  Won't happen here.  Just wait until - Checkmate.

The scenario laid out will work simply because the way most gun owners think, they've already lost.

tag

Quoted: Pleeease.  How much would that cost?   And the part about the distraction so  they can search your  house?  The .gov with a warrant doesn't "need" a distraction. If there is a total ban on firearms, they will just pick them and you up  along the way....neighbor sees one, you shoot a stray dog, you are seen shooting somewhere, routine traffic stop and you have one in the car,  you shoot an intruder, you get broken into... gun gets stolen....crook gets caught and tells where he got it,  or cops see one or evidence of one at your house while investigating some other unrelated crime........ The door to door "Kristallnacht" gun grab is a tin foiler's tactical wet dream.  Any gun grabs in America will be subtle and slow.  And it will be fought with pen, paper, and lobbyist dollars, NOT posers with their MBR in .308, drop leg super duper 1911, wearing the latest tactical fashions (from Vietnam, ordered from SG no less) while munching Twinkies and MRE's in their AO.

Yes it will require a massive collaboration between Federal ,State and Local agencies

Insidious- Having a gradual and cumulative effect   It will not happen overnite

Divide and Conquer- This is already being done on so many different political issues
Image is everything   Hunters aren't bad  That's why Bill Clinton and John Kerry made it a point to be filmed and photographed while hunting
Even Ultra Libs will tolerate some Hunter with a Shotgun that has a 2 rd capacity
But "Military Style " Rifles  NO WAY

Ultimately if the Gov pushes the envelope there will be Martyrs
The MSM will project the Image of a Lone Gun Nut who loved his Guns more than his family or Good Order of Society and refused to comply with what the "Majority of Americans" feel is reasonable "Gun Control Measures"

TV News Report:
Mr. John Brown of Beaver Falls, Idaho a suburb outside of Boise barricaded himself inside his home yesterday and refused to answer to a Warrant issued by the ATF concerning "Illegal Firearms" within Mr.Brown's residence
The standoff lasted 17 hours after which Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms forced Entry into Mr.Brown's residence shooting and killing Mr.Brown after he fired upon the Agents
Numerous weapons were seized, a huge stockpile of Ammunition recovered and litereature linking Mr.Brown to Right-Wing Anti-Government Groups was found
And now to our reporter at the scene:
A spokesman for the ATF had this to say "It appears that Mr.Brown was in possession of numerous Illegal Firearms in direct violation of Federal Law "
Reporter : "Any truth to the fact that Mr.brown belonged to the Right-Wing Group the Second Ammendment Brothers "
ATF Spokesman : " Ah yes we've recovered litereature and other doucuments we've seized his Personal Computer and will have more for you as this is an ongoing investigation "

Then the camera pans into the neighbors face " Yeah he was a quiet guy, strange but quiet "
Then they interview the co-workers  " He was always reading gun magazines and talked politics alot,
I think he was one of those Born -Again Christians, he even read his Bible at lunchtime he gave me the creeps "

You get the idea

Most people I encounter have no need or desire for a Firearm
They feel that the Police are just a Phone Call away   The Majority of Americans are Socialized
and feel that an individual should not be allowed possession of firearms   Sad but True

Since this thread's still going, I thought I'd add a few more ideas I thought up. The part I posted before is the ultimate trump card, something that there's no good way to counter. These things are simpler, and while they can all be countered, doing so will cost the .gov more money, manpower, and political capital.

"Soft" stuff:

Sell most of your guns. As far as I'm concerned, you only really need a couple for self-defense/guerella activities, and the rest are just for fun. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you may have to give up the toys when the going gets tough. Sell each one privately to a different person. If you get some information on the buyer, flip a few numbers around or misspell a street name. Every gun you sell will cost them more man-hours figuring out where it really went.

Look through the phone book, and adopt a few people. Buy them NRA memberships, send them ammo, gun parts, gun accessories, buy them memberships at local ranges, etc. The Feds will have millions of extra records, and they'll have to figure out which ones actually own guns. It'll be hard for them to figure out who is actually a gun owner, and who isn't. It'll also create lots more public resentment when they effectively revoke "innocent until proven guilty" for people who have never owned guns. That in turn creates more doubt that you really own guns.

If you have a significant amount of property, create some false buried guns to show up on their radar or whatever. Gotta check out what technology they're using, if just rods hammered into the ground are good enough, or you have to make objects the size and weight of real guns. They could easily spend weeks at a single house, digging up buried hunks of metal. Don't forget those wooded areas, where they can't use heavy equipment easily.

Move frequently. Don't leave a correct forwarding address. Either in the same town, or across the country. Get your bills sent to a PO box. Or just stay at a friend's house for a while.

"Hard" stuff:

If the ATF is foolish enough to schedule raids during IRS audits, take advantage of it. We'll all know after they do it a few dozen times. When you're called in for an audit, have a few buddies head over and watch the house, or just post your address and the appointment time somewhere public. When the "inspectors" get there, they kill all of them, take whatever equipment they can use and burn the rest. Minus one gun-grabbing squad each time, and they'll have to use triple the manpower locking down the whole neighberhood to stop it.

Set a few booby traps around your place, land mines, that sort of thing. Kill a couple of inspectors, and they'll have to send in a bomb squad to go over the place with a fine-toothed comb every single time.

Meanwhile, the number of people willing to do these fancy ground scans cheap will dry up real fast.

Also note that if they want the manpower to get something like this done sometime this centuty, they'll have to either hire a ton of morons, or leave a lot of other areas uncovered. "What, you're daughter's been kidnapped? Who cares? We're busy looking for all of those evil gun owners!"

As motown_steve pointed out, even against no resistance, this sort of thing is an impossibly huge task. Against even light use of these tactics, they'd be so bogged down that they wouldn't be making any progress at all.

Quoted: Don't forget the legal battles as soon as something like that is passed.  You figure the NRA has the money told hold up the issue in Federal Courts for years not to mention individuals that sue the government for seize their property without compensation.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't expect much help from NRA.
I hope I am wrong but where were they in going to the courts over '68GCA, '86 MG ban which they told Reagan to sign as it wouldn't hold up in the courts, and where were they in going to court over the '94AWBan?

Yeah, I pay them, to pay off corrupt polititicans, in order to hang onto the RKBA but it is all bullshit and NRA has a lousy track record in supporting us.
Bottom line is that when you have to pay off politicians to hang onto your Constitutional Rights you have already acquiesced to them that they are not rights but priveleges. Priveleges are something that can be taken away with the stroke of a pen. Rights are something you are willing to fight for, or they no longer exist. That is what makes them rights, the fact that you will not give them up no matter what.

Quoted: Since this thread's still going, I thought I'd add a few more ideas I thought up. The part I posted before is the ultimate trump card, something that there's no good way to counter. These things are simpler, and while they can all be countered, doing so will cost the .gov more money, manpower, and political capital. "Soft" stuff: Sell most of your guns. As far as I'm concerned, you only really need a couple for self-defense/guerella activities, and the rest are just for fun. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you may have to give up the toys when the going gets tough. Sell each one privately to a different person. If you get some information on the buyer, flip a few numbers around or misspell a street name. Every gun you sell will cost them more man-hours figuring out where it really went. Look through the phone book, and adopt a few people. Buy them NRA memberships, send them ammo, gun parts, gun accessories, buy them memberships at local ranges, etc. The Feds will have millions of extra records, and they'll have to figure out which ones actually own guns. It'll be hard for them to figure out who is actually a gun owner, and who isn't. It'll also create lots more public resentment when they effectively revoke "innocent until proven guilty" for people who have never owned guns. That in turn creates more doubt that you really own guns. If you have a significant amount of property, create some false buried guns to show up on their radar or whatever. Gotta check out what technology they're using, if just rods hammered into the ground are good enough, or you have to make objects the size and weight of real guns. They could easily spend weeks at a single house, digging up buried hunks of metal. Don't forget those wooded areas, where they can't use heavy equipment easily. Move frequently. Don't leave a correct forwarding address. Either in the same town, or across the country. Get your bills sent to a PO box. Or just stay at a friend's house for a while. "Hard" stuff: If the ATF is foolish enough to schedule raids during IRS audits, take advantage of it. We'll all know after they do it a few dozen times. When you're called in for an audit, have a few buddies head over and watch the house, or just post your address and the appointment time somewhere public. When the "inspectors" get there, they kill all of them, take whatever equipment they can use and burn the rest. Minus one gun-grabbing squad each time, and they'll have to use triple the manpower locking down the whole neighberhood to stop it. Set a few booby traps around your place, land mines, that sort of thing. Kill a couple of inspectors, and they'll have to send in a bomb squad to go over the place with a fine-toothed comb every single time. Meanwhile, the number of people willing to do these fancy ground scans cheap will dry up real fast. Also note that if they want the manpower to get something like this done sometime this centuty, they'll have to either hire a ton of morons, or leave a lot of other areas uncovered. "What, you're daughter's been kidnapped? Who cares? We're busy looking for all of those evil gun owners!" As motown_steve pointed out, even against no resistance, this sort of thing is an impossibly huge task. Against even light use of these tactics, they'd be so bogged down that they wouldn't be making any progress at all.

Finally someone who is thinking tactically.

I swear, it seems like everyone envisions us holed up in our homes cowering in fear waiting for the Feds to come.  Fuck them.

Or 10,000 of us moving across the open prairie to take them on in force while artillery and close air support rains down on us.  Geez people, get a freakin clue.

Guns...what guns...you must be talking about the guns I had years ago that I sold... and,your not going to beleive this, well one time I was out in my boat and the boat sank...  

A few more things: How many cops and feds are on our side, and what will they do? Some will just quit, further draining the number of skilled people to do all this stuff. Some will stay in, feeding bad information into the most sensitive parts of the system, warning people of upcoming raids, raiding the wrong house, and generally wreaking havoc.

We expect most feds to be lazy and cowardly. When it starts getting dangerous, how many will just sit at home and fake their field reports?

Look at the Canadian registry. What will the politicians tell the people when the system costs several orders of magnitute above what they said, still hasn't accomplished anything, has no hope of ever accomplishing anything, and has no effect whatsoever on real crime?

Any of you who think the .gov will not know you have guns are sadly mistaken. You come here, some libtard neighbor will report on you, maybe your own wife, kids, etc. Get real guys.

And if you say you sold them or lost them they simply enter with the warrant they now rubber stamp themselves thanks to the Patriot Act and tear your house apart. That would be just the beggining for you. IRS audit, imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws, obstruction of justice, etc. Most who are not willing to fight now will bend over and grab their ankles when the time comes.

I honestly dont think they would even try that hard to round up all the guns.

Just give it 20 years and everyone will think guns are truely illegal and will call the cops at the mear sight of one. Most People think any Machine gun is illegal, I don't think that would be any differnet.

Quoted: Any of you who think the .gov will not know you have guns are sadly mistaken. You come here, some libtard neighbor will report on you, maybe your own wife, kids, etc. Get real guys. And if you say you sold them or lost them they simply enter with the warrant they now rubber stamp themselves thanks to the Patriot Act and tear your house apart. That would be just the beggining for you. IRS audit, imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws, obstruction of justice, etc. Most who are not willing to fight now will bend over and grab their ankles when the time comes.

You're right.

All the more reason to fight the "soft" fight now (to borrow a Fred term) rather than the "hard" fight later.

Quoted: Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government.

If they are going to designate you a felon then be all the felon you can be!

Something like that, only several lawsuits along the way.

THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO BE IN THE NRA.  They're not NEARLY as effective as I'd like them to be, but they WOULD fight this, and the more we support them the better job they'll do at fighting it.

At some point in this process people could no longer pretend that the second ammendment is just being "interpreted differently" -- they'd have to be willing to admit that they no longer want the second ammendment to exist at all, and are completely ignoring it.  At some point, it would force SCOTUS to actually hear a 2a case instead of ignoring them...and at that time either the court upholds the second ammendment and deals a crippling blow to gun control, or they piss off every single gun owner in the country.

And by every single gun owner I mean the "old school" folks like my dad who own nothing but bolt action rifles and a revolver or two.  Piss off that crowd with gun control and suddenly we have a LOT more people on our side who see what's really going on with gun control in this country.

Interesting read.

Quoted: Look at the Canadian registry. What will the politicians tell the people when the system costs several orders of magnitute above what they said, still hasn't accomplished anything, has no hope of ever accomplishing anything, and has no effect whatsoever on real crime?

The Canadian registry attempt is a perfect example of what a failure the very idea is. People in Canada literally walked into police stations with unregistered guns, walked up to the counter and said 'Hi, I have an unregistered weapon, arrest me' so that they could mount a court challenge. The police in most cases told them to take their gun and go home.

Quoted: Something like that, only several lawsuits along the way. THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO BE IN THE NRA.  They're not NEARLY as effective as I'd like them to be, but they WOULD fight this, and the more we support them the better job they'll do at fighting it. At some point in this process people could no longer pretend that the second ammendment is just being "interpreted differently" -- they'd have to be willing to admit that they no longer want the second ammendment to exist at all, and are completely ignoring it.  At some point, it would force SCOTUS to actually hear a 2a case instead of ignoring them...and at that time either the court upholds the second ammendment and deals a crippling blow to gun control, or they piss off every single gun owner in the country. And by every single gun owner I mean the "old school" folks like my dad who own nothing but bolt action rifles and a revolver or two.  Piss off that crowd with gun control and suddenly we have a LOT more people on our side who see what's really going on with gun control in this country.

I don't want this point to be lost on anyone.

Nevermind

I think when they come looking for your guns like when they nock on the door thats when you pull them out and start usesing them. Maybe that will send a message.

Quoted: Quoted: Not going to happen.  Not even in hitlary's fantasy world.  Why, because they need the duck hunters and they vote.   Not withstanding, the clay sports are still very popular.  Now, I could see restrictions on certain guns.  Its not however going to effect .22s and 870s.  Those would be more than adequate though.   As to the confiscation and search scenario, its pure rubbish.  This is America and no one in this country is that patient or that meticulous.  Its just not in our nature.  I will believe it when our government stops handing out semi auto rifles through the CMP and closes down domestic gun sales.  As it is, we just passed a law shielding manufacturers from liability, let the AWB die and have new CCW laws in alot of states.  The antis have lost a lifetime of ground here and its going to take them a really long time to get it back.  The best they can hope for even with a dem congress, is to get a law banning mags larger than 10 rounds.  Beyond that, its not going to happen in my lifetime. Hey, hey, don't go spreading facts around! There are tinfoil-hatters out there trying very hard to keep their blaze-of-glory conspiracy theories alive.

Try telling that it will never happen to hundreds of New Orleans residents that had their guns taken when they needed them most. It wast he NG and out of State police that confiscation them against all the laws on the books. Just wait till we have a massive terror attack in this country, they will go hell bent after our guns. Look what they did less then 4 days after a storm, what do you think they would do after 10 or 20 thousands or more (God forbid) people get killed in a WMD attack? People were being killed and looting was out of control in NO and all the Gov was worried about was taking guns!!!! The sad thing is many so called tinfoil-hatters are right.

I think saying I sold them in 1982 is a bad way to handle it and I think you should send them something hot and pointy when they ask.

Edit: Arn't most of the police and military gun nuts any way. Don't the military take a oth so whos side would they take?

Quoted: Quoted: Any of you who think the .gov will not know you have guns are sadly mistaken. You come here, some libtard neighbor will report on you, maybe your own wife, kids, etc. Get real guys. And if you say you sold them or lost them they simply enter with the warrant they now rubber stamp themselves thanks to the Patriot Act and tear your house apart. That would be just the beggining for you. IRS audit, imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws, obstruction of justice, etc. Most who are not willing to fight now will bend over and grab their ankles when the time comes. You're right. All the more reason to fight the "soft" fight now (to borrow a Fred term) rather than the "hard" fight later.

considering how many gun laws are already enacted [nationwide], i'd say we have been loosing the "soft" fight almost completely since the late 1960's.

a few have commented on how many police and military are on "our side". if that's where your faith lies, you better find a better plan. most police would do their jobs. they have a family to feed/mortgage to pay, and besides, you *are* breaking the law. why wouldn't they arrest you?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Any of you who think the .gov will not know you have guns are sadly mistaken. You come here, some libtard neighbor will report on you, maybe your own wife, kids, etc. Get real guys. And if you say you sold them or lost them they simply enter with the warrant they now rubber stamp themselves thanks to the Patriot Act and tear your house apart. That would be just the beggining for you. IRS audit, imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws, obstruction of justice, etc. Most who are not willing to fight now will bend over and grab their ankles when the time comes. You're right. All the more reason to fight the "soft" fight now (to borrow a Fred term) rather than the "hard" fight later. considering how many gun laws are already enacted [nationwide], i'd say we have been loosing the "soft" fight almost completely since the late 1960's. a few have commented on how many police and military are on "our side". if that's where your faith lies, you better find a better plan. most police would do their jobs. they have a family to feed/mortgage to pay, and besides, you *are* breaking the law. why wouldn't they arrest you?

You're focusing on the negative my friend. We've lost some - sure - but we have also made gains in many places.

While I agree with you - we'll likely be no different from what happened in England or Australia if the time comes ... you should still encourage people to join the NRA. Anything we can do to prevent this from happening is worth doing.

BTW we also have New Orleans to throw in the banners' faces...

Quoted: How can any of you be against "common sense" ,   "reasonable" , and - " for the chilrdren" -  Gun "safety" laws like this ???????????????

Best post yet!!!

If it did happen, you could bet that ever member of this site would be of the first to get a visit

Bubba in the South who deer hunts will never give up his guns. Same for serious hunters everywhere in the U.S.  The feds tried to stamp out moonshine and guess what, they did not succeed-even passed a constitutional amendment against drinking and failed. How much money has been spent trying to stamp out drugs with no luck?

How many people ignored the AWB and put adjustible stocks on their rifles? How many people speed and the government is everywhere trying to stop them.

We have a gun culture and guns are widely held, unlike G.B. where mostly the upper class had guns. People forget one little simple fact. If the gun owners say no, no guns laws will be enforced, period. For instance when Kalifornia passed their AWB, had the gun owners said screw you gobberment, that would have been the end of it. No way the state is going to lock up thousands of innocent gun owners or break into their houses and shoot them. Mamas would have been all over their reps for locking up junior. If enough people in NYC, DC, Chicago, etc. said screw you mayor, we are going to buy guns, and enough did, nothing would be done.

The gobberment rules by fear. Arrest someone, make a big splash, and the average joe shakes in his boots. If the people stand up, like our FFs said we should, all this gun control crap ends. It's up to the people

How will they get mine?  After beeing shot at, they will take a crowbar and pry my dead fingers off my gun.  Thats how


Or come to Cuba and find me and my cache smoking cubans

tag

I rather die defending my constitution then betraying it.

Quoted: I rather die defending my constitution then betraying it.

Or rather die killing those who betray it.


"I, drjarhead, do solemnly swear  that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Quoted: Quoted: I rather die defending my constitution then betraying it. Or rather die killing those who betray it. "I, drjarhead, do solemnly swear  that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

So whose orders do you follow, or not follow, pertaining to the topic at hand?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I rather die defending my constitution then betraying it. Or rather die killing those who betray it. "I, drjarhead, do solemnly swear  that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." So whose orders do you follow, or not follow, pertaining to the topic at hand?

Those of my superiors, provided they are LAWFUL orders.  Orders that violate the Constitution are by definition, unlawful.

Of course, I am no longer in the military so the only superior I have is....ME.
Fact is, it is up to all of us to support and defend the Constitution, a document which does not require a JD to read.  

Quoted: Since this thread's still going, I thought I'd add a few more ideas I thought up. The part I posted before is the ultimate trump card, something that there's no good way to counter. These things are simpler, and while they can all be countered, doing so will cost the .gov more money, manpower, and political capital. "Soft" stuff: Sell most of your guns. As far as I'm concerned, you only really need a couple for self-defense/guerella activities, and the rest are just for fun. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you may have to give up the toys when the going gets tough. Sell each one privately to a different person. If you get some information on the buyer, flip a few numbers around or misspell a street name. Every gun you sell will cost them more man-hours figuring out where it really went. Look through the phone book, and adopt a few people. Buy them NRA memberships, send them ammo, gun parts, gun accessories, buy them memberships at local ranges, etc. The Feds will have millions of extra records, and they'll have to figure out which ones actually own guns. It'll be hard for them to figure out who is actually a gun owner, and who isn't. It'll also create lots more public resentment when they effectively revoke "innocent until proven guilty" for people who have never owned guns. That in turn creates more doubt that you really own guns. If you have a significant amount of property, create some false buried guns to show up on their radar or whatever. Gotta check out what technology they're using, if just rods hammered into the ground are good enough, or you have to make objects the size and weight of real guns. They could easily spend weeks at a single house, digging up buried hunks of metal. Don't forget those wooded areas, where they can't use heavy equipment easily. Move frequently. Don't leave a correct forwarding address. Either in the same town, or across the country. Get your bills sent to a PO box. Or just stay at a friend's house for a while. "Hard" stuff: If the ATF is foolish enough to schedule raids during IRS audits, take advantage of it. We'll all know after they do it a few dozen times. When you're called in for an audit, have a few buddies head over and watch the house, or just post your address and the appointment time somewhere public. When the "inspectors" get there, they kill all of them, take whatever equipment they can use and burn the rest. Minus one gun-grabbing squad each time, and they'll have to use triple the manpower locking down the whole neighberhood to stop it. Set a few booby traps around your place, land mines, that sort of thing. Kill a couple of inspectors, and they'll have to send in a bomb squad to go over the place with a fine-toothed comb every single time. Meanwhile, the number of people willing to do these fancy ground scans cheap will dry up real fast. Also note that if they want the manpower to get something like this done sometime this centuty, they'll have to either hire a ton of morons, or leave a lot of other areas uncovered. "What, you're daughter's been kidnapped? Who cares? We're busy looking for all of those evil gun owners!" As motown_steve pointed out, even against no resistance, this sort of thing is an impossibly huge task. Against even light use of these tactics, they'd be so bogged down that they wouldn't be making any progress at all.

Cool post.

Quoted: Bottom line is that when you have to pay off politicians to hang onto your Constitutional Rights you have already acquiesced to them that they are not rights but priveleges. Priveleges are something that can be taken away with the stroke of a pen.

Soooo true.

Quoted: Quoted: Look at the Canadian registry. What will the politicians tell the people when the system costs several orders of magnitute above what they said, still hasn't accomplished anything, has no hope of ever accomplishing anything, and has no effect whatsoever on real crime? The Canadian registry attempt is a perfect example of what a failure the very idea is. People in Canada literally walked into police stations with unregistered guns, walked up to the counter and said 'Hi, I have an unregistered weapon, arrest me' so that they could mount a court challenge. The police in most cases told them to take their gun and go home.

That, my friends, is kick ass awesome.

Quoted: Quoted: Any of you who think the .gov will not know you have guns are sadly mistaken. You come here, some libtard neighbor will report on you, maybe your own wife, kids, etc. Get real guys. And if you say you sold them or lost them they simply enter with the warrant they now rubber stamp themselves thanks to the Patriot Act and tear your house apart. That would be just the beggining for you. IRS audit, imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws, obstruction of justice, etc. Most who are not willing to fight now will bend over and grab their ankles when the time comes. You're right. All the more reason to fight the "soft" fight now (to borrow a Fred term) rather than the "hard" fight later.

Well, that all sounds just great until you look at where the "soft fight" has gotten us.  We give up untold territory over decades and then when we win a tiny bit back we declare victory. LMAO. And I ain't the only one laughing.

No, we may not need to fight the "hard fight" but the only way to hang onto our rights is to convince the neofascist socialists that we WILL fight. Convince them that we cannot wait. That'd be me BTW.  But I can't do it alone and as it is I don't think Fred and I can do it alone.  Besides, he's just a nut ain't he?


They won't stop, ever, until we kick their ass.  

What is happening today regarding the loss of freedom an fire-arm ownership is the same as the war for independence, the people made a declaration,  demands with a penalty for not meeting those demands.

It is the same today, a declaration must to given to the president since he is the chief constitution enforcement officer that the first ten bill of rights must be enforced in the spirit in which they are intended.

Failure to meet the demand for bill of rights enforcement means every officer guilty of violating the bill of rights will be brought to justice by any means necessary !