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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:38:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except you answered it wrong.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A gift is a gift. Your mom can buy it and give it to her. If they are both at the shop, then your sister should do the paper work. Why do y'all ask legality questions where its stored in perpetuity? Except you answered it wrong. Which part is wrong? And if so it proves my question. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:40:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which part is wrong? And if so it proves my question. If they are both in the shop, mom still fills out paperwork. The sister would have to answer no to 11.a "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm" which would nullify the transfer; it cannot proceed at that point. This is clearly explained in the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:41:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is your sister an addict and prohibited from owning a firearm on that basis? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So a little back story here, my sister is cleaning herself up (making better choices we’ll say). She doesn’t have a criminal record or anything like that. She recently got an apartment in a not so good part of town. My mom was wanting to buy her a handgun as a home warning gift. Could she legally buy from an online retailer, ship to an FFL and my sister do the paperwork, pay the fee, and take possession? Is your sister an addict and prohibited from owning a firearm on that basis? Fuck that question. You can be a raging drunk and its kosher. "Unlawfully" use marijuana and you're a risk to everyone, EVERYONE!!! |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:42:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: A lot of FFLs won't do that. Name of purchaser not matching who is coming to pick it up tends to be a red flag for them. I'm an ffl. I ain't doing that transfer. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:44:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they are both in the shop, mom still fills out paperwork. The sister would have to answer no to 11.a "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm" which would nullify the transfer; it cannot proceed at that point. This is clearly explained in the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which part is wrong? And if so it proves my question. If they are both in the shop, mom still fills out paperwork. The sister would have to answer no to 11.a "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm" which would nullify the transfer; it cannot proceed at that point. This is clearly explained in the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. I stand corrected. None if that makes sense though( like any of it does). Especially if its family. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:44:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Post up her picture and let's have a look at her. If she's a cutie, maybe one of the ATF guys or gals reading this will hook her up with a Blue Label and drop it in the mail to her.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:51:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I stand corrected. None if that makes sense though( like any of it does). Especially if its family. I hear you. Now had sis won it in a raffle instead, then she fills it out. It makes no sense. But that's the way it is. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:59:41 AM EDT
[#8]
If the person is able to purchase can you not just gift it to her?
In my state I can buy a firearm as a gift. I have bought for my sons who at the time were under 18 and had the guns under the tree at Christmas. Those guns are with them as adults. Unless your state has gun registration I can't see how it is a straw purchase unless the person getting it is forbidden. My state has face2face with no 4473 also so there is that too. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:03:41 AM EDT
[#9]
After reading the back and forth responses, I think the mobile firearms dealers who operate out of their trunk are onto something.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:05:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, It is a straw purchase if the intent to not have the individual (end user) do a background check. Regardless of if they are prohibited or not. You cannot buy and give a firearm for someone else, unless it is direct family. Now you can "pay for it" as long as the end user is the one who is filling out the background. (There is some debate about this now tho). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As far as I know, it's only a straw purchase if the ultimate possessor is a prohibited person. BTW - I don't necessarily, from a fundamental 2A standpoint, agree with it. That is just my understanding of the rules. No, It is a straw purchase if the intent to not have the individual (end user) do a background check. Regardless of if they are prohibited or not. You cannot buy and give a firearm for someone else, unless it is direct family. Now you can "pay for it" as long as the end user is the one who is filling out the background. (There is some debate about this now tho). You had the right idea until you got to the “direct family” part. No family exception. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:07:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As far as I know, it's only a straw purchase if the ultimate possessor is a prohibited person. BTW - I don't necessarily, from a fundamental 2A standpoint, agree with it. That is just my understanding of the rules. that used to be true in the 5th circuit but the USSC came along and said otherwise |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:11:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You had the right idea until you got to the “direct family” part. No family exception. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: As far as I know, it's only a straw purchase if the ultimate possessor is a prohibited person. BTW - I don't necessarily, from a fundamental 2A standpoint, agree with it. That is just my understanding of the rules. No, It is a straw purchase if the intent to not have the individual (end user) do a background check. Regardless of if they are prohibited or not. You cannot buy and give a firearm for someone else, unless it is direct family. Now you can "pay for it" as long as the end user is the one who is filling out the background. (There is some debate about this now tho). You had the right idea until you got to the “direct family” part. No family exception. I don't know about the rest of the country, but there are shit ton of private sales and trades in Florida. I'll let yall come to your own conclusions. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:22:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Its simple
Who ever is paying for it fills out the paper work. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:34:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Easiest to have mom send money and let sister buy the gun. The winning post. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:37:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: So a little back story here, my sister is cleaning herself up (making better choices we’ll say). She doesn’t have a criminal record or anything like that. She recently got an apartment in a not so good part of town. My mom was wanting to buy her a handgun as a home warning gift. Could she legally buy from an online retailer, ship to an FFL and my sister do the paperwork, pay the fee, and take possession? Almost exactly kosher (should be) as the one on the 4473 is the owner. We gun guys hate our kind and create even more rules above what are forced upon us as we like being good little subjects. We’ll even nark on others because they did it an easier way than we did. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:38:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its simple Who ever is paying for it fills out the paper work. Which is why its so stupid. Bureaucratic logic. So dad and son are in the store. Dad is buying his son a pistol. Go to pay, son says ill do the check, its for me. Dad goes to hand a credit card. No sir, straw purchase. OK, so dad and son go get cash. No, sir, straw purchase for the dad. If an ffl can't discern between a family gift that is trying to legitimately trying to avoid the appearance of a straw purchase vs trash bringing their girlfriends in I don't know what to say. FATF stupid rules. Maybe you fuckers should focus on switches in the inner city. Bureaucratic lemmings. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:38:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is your sister an addict and prohibited from owning a firearm on that basis? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So a little back story here, my sister is cleaning herself up (making better choices we’ll say). She doesn’t have a criminal record or anything like that. She recently got an apartment in a not so good part of town. My mom was wanting to buy her a handgun as a home warning gift. Could she legally buy from an online retailer, ship to an FFL and my sister do the paperwork, pay the fee, and take possession? Is your sister an addict and prohibited from owning a firearm on that basis? Doesn’t matter anymore? |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:40:18 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Easiest to have mom send money and let sister buy the gun. THIS |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:41:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can only directly gift to someone in the same state and OP has not said it that's the case with his mom and sister. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your mom does the paperwork. Then gifts it to your sister. Perfectly legal. It's right in the instructions of the 4473 which nobody reads.  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467079/Screenshot_20230408_001516_Samsung_Notes-2774688.jpg As you can see, bona fide gifts do not constitute a straw purchase. Can only directly gift to someone in the same state and OP has not said it that's the case with his mom and sister. See, we are even assuming where people live to deny them. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:42:46 AM EDT
[#20]
That's a straw purchase. Mom is the actual buyer and needs to do the paperwork. Then she can gift it to daughter. Seems stupid.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:54:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Easiest to have mom send money and let sister buy the gun. Or gift card. Though if mom trusts sister enough to buy a gun , likely trusts enough to do cash. Buying a gun for someone else is weird, odds are their hand won’t fit it right, or it is in some caliber like .45 acp that they hate , or it is stainless and they like blued |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:56:40 AM EDT
[#22]
My wife wanted to buy me a rifle for my birthday. They were explicit that she had to fill out the paperwork if she was paying. Same thing when she bought her son a revolver to use in his cowboy shoots. In the case of her son she just wired him the cash so he could fill out the forms.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:02:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they are both in the shop, mom still fills out paperwork. The sister would have to answer no to 11.a "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm" which would nullify the transfer; it cannot proceed at that point. This is clearly explained in the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which part is wrong? And if so it proves my question. If they are both in the shop, mom still fills out paperwork. The sister would have to answer no to 11.a "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm" which would nullify the transfer; it cannot proceed at that point. This is clearly explained in the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. 21.a says "transferee/buyer", not "buyer". The daughter would be the transferee. The mother cannot answer 21.a with a yes because she is not the transferee. From your own source:  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:07:21 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 21.a says "transferee/buyer", not "buyer". The daughter would be the transferee. The mother cannot answer 21.a with a yes because she is not the transferee. From your own source: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33962/Screenshot_20230408-090012-953_png-2774874.JPG Wrong. Keep reading where you snipped. It calls out that if you are buying it as a bona fide gift, you are the transferee still. Please, anyone that wants to argue, FIRST READ the 4473 in its entirety and the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. This all becomes very obvious. 
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:09:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Just because it is legal to do does not mean that an FFL will be ok with the transfer, especially when the ATF has been going around fucking with FFLs extra hard lately and revoking FFLs for minor errors. Centerfire Systems even held a parts kit because their location tracker thing said my location didn't match the billing and shipping address; I had to call and explain I was using a VPN.
If your mom is in the same state (i.e. no interstate transfer) she can buy it herself and give it to her daughter assuming she is not a prohibited person. If she is in a different state she can do this, but would have to send it through an FFL. It'd be easier for her to transfer her daughter money/a gift card/etc... and the daughter buy it. If they are in different states the gun is *supposed* to go through an FFL, but I don't think most people know this (because it's nonsensical and retarded) and it probably happens all the time that a gift is given when one is visiting another from out of state. The stated intent of the straw purchase rule is to run a background check on the individual taking possession of the firearm in order to make sure they are not a prohibited possessor. The real reason is because they want to track guns as best they can without having been able to pass UBCs yet, and despite being legally prohibited from maintaining a registration database. I realize the background check only calls in the purchaser information to NICS; but the above is why 4473's include make/model/serial#, why they were changed a few years ago to have all that information on the front page, and why the 4473 retention requirement has been lengthened and ultimately been made indefinite. If I were anything other than a coincidence theorist I would suspect that when IOI's go around scanning 4473's, they are creating digitized PDF copies that are uploaded to a "totally not a database" that can be searched. I'm sure that's just "digitizing the forms" to keep them from collapsing the floor in WV again under the burden of all those cumbersome paper 4473 forms like they say. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:12:07 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. Keep reading where you snipped. It calls out that if you are buying it as a bona fide gift, you are the transferee still. Please, anyone that wants to argue, FIRST READ the 4473 in its entirety and the June 2021 FFL Newsletter. This all becomes very obvious. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467079/Screenshot_20230408_090902_Samsung_Notes-2774878.jpg My bad, you're right! Here's the problem: my store has received direct instruction from ATF that if both the gifter and gifter are present, the gifter should do the 4473. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:16:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why the fuck is sale of ammo on the 4473? Does the FATF have regulatory authority over the sale and possession of ammunition? |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:21:04 AM EDT
[#28]
As long as your sister does the paperwork at the ffl this is completely legal
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:24:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As long as your sister does the paperwork at the ffl this is completely legal No. That's a straw purchase. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:29:59 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. That's a straw purchase. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As long as your sister does the paperwork at the ffl this is completely legal No. That's a straw purchase. It's not a straw purchase, she just can't correctly answer 21.a. A “straw purchase” is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses another person who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. Those who purchase firearms in this illegal manner are subject to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:32:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As long as your sister does the paperwork at the ffl this is completely legal I'd go with obsessives answer. One buyer one check. After that fuck off ( last part wasn't his answer). I've done the check and had dad pay, before 2021. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:39:56 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of stupid fucks who can't understand basic fucking English, has me wanting to throat punch every customer who's confused. I had no patience with one guy, and when he asked me for help on that question, I asked him which word he needed a definition of to understand the question. ETA: Enough people on here know me IRL, and where I work, that they know, if I go that level on a dipshit, they earned it. ETA: "...for sale of other disposition to any person described..." WTF does this even mean? Is that "of" supposed to be an "or"? |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:42:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of stupid fucks who can't understand basic fucking English, has me wanting to throat punch every customer who's confused. I had no patience with one guy, and when he asked me for help on that question, I asked him which word he needed a definition of to understand the question. ETA: Enough people on here know me IRL, and where I work, that they know, if I go that level on a dipshit, they earned it. One of the biggest signs someone is an ass hole is someone that gets mad that others don't understand how to do something the ass does every day. Just because its business as usual for you doesn't mean it is for others. Some people may be filling out their first 4473. Edit: 21b: “Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?” That's some convoluted language making you jump to at least 11 different spots on the form to figure out WTF the form is saying. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:45:03 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Easiest to have mom send money and let sister buy the gun. Or for mom to buy the gun in her name and then gift it to the daughter. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:47:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Either order it in sisters name or have mom pick it up from FFL to avoid drama. Why over complicate the situation?
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:47:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not a straw purchase, she just can't correctly answer 21.a. Dude, stop. You are wrong. It is a straw purchase. If sister fills it out, she would have to answer no to 11.a. The transfer stops right there. It CANNOT continue as it is a straw purchase. End of story. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:48:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Stop for a moment and look at this.
2 pages of chatter for the simple exercise of a guaranteed right. It shouldn’t be this way. If you want to buy a car, appliance, lawn mower, land, name something, it does not trigger a discussion as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. Fabulous discussion, it just shouldn’t need to take place. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:51:37 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. But it wouldn't be a straw purchase since she's not a prohibited person. you don't need to be a prohibited person for it to be a straw purchase |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:54:04 AM EDT
[#39]
Gifting a gun is legal
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:54:59 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stop for a moment and look at this. 2 pages of chatter for the simple exercise of a guaranteed right. It shouldn’t be this way. If you want to buy a car, appliance, lawn mower, land, name something, it does not trigger a discussion as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. Fabulous discussion, it just shouldn’t need to take place. You hit the nail on the head. It shouldn't be this complicated. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:56:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, It is a straw purchase if the intent to not have the individual (end user) do a background check. Regardless of if they are prohibited or not. You cannot buy and give a firearm for someone else, unless it is direct family. Now you can "pay for it" as long as the end user is the one who is filling out the background. (There is some debate about this now tho). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As far as I know, it's only a straw purchase if the ultimate possessor is a prohibited person. BTW - I don't necessarily, from a fundamental 2A standpoint, agree with it. That is just my understanding of the rules. No, It is a straw purchase if the intent to not have the individual (end user) do a background check. Regardless of if they are prohibited or not. You cannot buy and give a firearm for someone else, unless it is direct family. Now you can "pay for it" as long as the end user is the one who is filling out the background. (There is some debate about this now tho). That's the ATF's twisted redefinition of it. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 9:58:15 AM EDT
[#42]
I worked at a big box store gun counter. 4473 was all on a computer. The buyer question was the only one customers were allowed to go back and correct, that's how many people didn't understand it. And that was before the latest changes. The question should just ask "are you the actual buyer?", and stop right fucking there.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:00:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What a stupid fucking question and if you answer yes, you're a stupid person. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 21 c doesn't confuse anyone. 21.c.: “Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?” What a stupid fucking question and if you answer yes, you're a stupid person. Lol, that really highlights how retarded .gov employees are. That they put thT on there. Either way, in this new environment with the friendlier batf, ffls ain't gonna play this game. Have momma give her the money and your sister can go pick out her own gun. Doesn't matter what the instructions say on the 4473 to the ATF. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:01:52 AM EDT
[#44]
Grandparent, parent, child, grandchild, spouse. Those people can buy handguns for each other.
Eta: with that said, daughters name needs to be the "transferee" name thats included on the shipped gun. Ive had this exact thing happen, and unfortunately had to send the gun back. Thankfully they were understanding. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:03:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Grandparent, parent, child, grandchild, spouse. Those people can buy handguns for eachother. yes they can. so can anyone who isnt related in any of those ways |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:03:57 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a giant run-on sentence that requires you to stop, go back and read multiple referenced sections. The grammar is horrendous. ETA: "...for sale of other disposition to any person described..." WTF does this even mean? Is that "of" supposed to be an "or"? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The amount of stupid fucks who can't understand basic fucking English, has me wanting to throat punch every customer who's confused. I had no patience with one guy, and when he asked me for help on that question, I asked him which word he needed a definition of to understand the question. ETA: Enough people on here know me IRL, and where I work, that they know, if I go that level on a dipshit, they earned it. ETA: "...for sale of other disposition to any person described..." WTF does this even mean? Is that "of" supposed to be an "or"? Maybe its a feature. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:04:16 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why the fuck is sale of ammo on the 4473? @gotigers Some states require that now. 
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:04:49 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yes they can. so can anyone who isnt related in any of those ways 
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:06:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of stupid fucks who can't understand basic fucking English, has me wanting to throat punch every customer who's confused. I had no patience with one guy, and when he asked me for help on that question, I asked him which word he needed a definition of to understand the question. ETA: Enough people on here know me IRL, and where I work, that they know, if I go that level on a dipshit, they earned it. Have you looked at the new 21c? I don't know what the hell furtherance means, and I have three college degrees. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:07:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the biggest signs someone is an ass hole is someone that gets mad that others don't understand how to do something the ass does every day. Just because its business as usual for you doesn't mean it is for others. Some people may be filling out their first 4473. Edit: 21b: “Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?” That's some convoluted language making you jump to at least 11 different spots on the form to figure out WTF the form is saying. So its just asking if you’re buying it to sell to someone else right? |
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