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Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:11:34 AM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
He's hard up for money but is going to poetenially purchase a firearm....????  What am I missing......
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Yup
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:17:01 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
ATF Link

Page 166


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Quoted:
ATF Link

Page 166


Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.

Above paragraph does not apply to OP

In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.

Above paragraph does not apply to OP since the buyer is not using OP's information to fill out the form

An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

Above paragraph does not apply, as OP did not ask the buyer to buy the gun for him using OP's money.

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

This would apply to OP.  The other guy is gifting a firearm to the OP as a form of payment.  Buyer fills out 4473 when he buys it.  As it is shipped across state lines, OP then fills out 4473 on his end.  ATF is happy...both parties completed the necessary paperwork and background checks.  OP answers YES on 4473 - 11(a) since he is the actual transferee of the firearm.  

But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:34:28 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:

But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.
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Buyer is filling one out since he is in a different state.  

By my understanding of the OP, the buyer owes OP for a service.  Buyer is going to buy a gun at his LGS (4473 for buyer).  Buyer is then going to ship the gun to OP's FFL in OP's state of residence.  OP fills out 4473 at his LGS and takes possession of it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:48:23 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:

................

If the money comes from the other guy then the OP can't mark yes on the question that asks if he is the actual buyer.
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In the Abramski case he bought the gun with his money and the uncle paid for it 3 days later by sending a check for $400 to him.

In this case the guy outstate is buying a pistol with his CC money and the OP is sending him another pistol.............then the outstate guy will send the gun he bought with the sole intention of going to the OP after receiving the traded gun.

How is this any different than Abramski?

ETA:  Quote from 4CA opinion on facts:

"J.A. 585 (emphasis on Form 4473).[fn1] Abramski checked the answer "Yes" to question ll.a. Three days later, on November 20, 2009, the $400 check from Alvarez was deposited in Abramski's bank account, and the next day Abramski transferred the Glock 19 handgun to Alvarez at a licensed federal firearms dealer in Easton, Pennsylvania. At that time, Alvarez gave Abramski a receipt confirming the transfer, reflecting that Alvarez had purchased the Glock 19 handgun for $400."


There is a caveat though..........the check was dated two days prior to the date Abramski bought the gun............but not cashed until after the purchase of the gun by Abramski from the FFL.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 2:31:00 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:  But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.
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That's fine, as long as OP is the one ending up w/ the gun.  A straw purchase would occur if OP filled out the 4473, the other guy paid for it, and the OTHER GUY ended up w/ the gun.

In ATF's own instructional videos for gun dealers, they explicitly state it's ok for someone else to pay @ the register, as long as the person who's ending up w/ the gun did the 4473.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:33:18 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


That's fine, as long as OP is the one ending up w/ the gun.  A straw purchase would occur if OP filled out the 4473, the other guy paid for it, and the OTHER GUY ended up w/ the gun.

In ATF's own instructional videos for gun dealers, they explicitly state it's ok for someone else to pay @ the register, as long as the person who's ending up w/ the gun did the 4473.
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Quoted:
Quoted:  But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.


That's fine, as long as OP is the one ending up w/ the gun.  A straw purchase would occur if OP filled out the 4473, the other guy paid for it, and the OTHER GUY ended up w/ the gun.

In ATF's own instructional videos for gun dealers, they explicitly state it's ok for someone else to pay @ the register, as long as the person who's ending up w/ the gun did the 4473.

Any chance you can link those videos because that is not at all what we were told. Don't get me wrong I think it should be that way but many of the stores here that is a absolute no go.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 4:34:26 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:

In the Abramski case he bought the gun with his money and the uncle paid for it 3 days later by sending a check for $400 to him.

In this case the guy outstate is buying a pistol with his CC money and the OP is sending him another pistol.............then the outstate guy will send the gun he bought with the sole intention of going to the OP after receiving the traded gun.

How is this any different than Abramski?

ETA:  Quote from 4CA opinion on facts:

"J.A. 585 (emphasis on Form 4473).[fn1] Abramski checked the answer "Yes" to question ll.a. Three days later, on November 20, 2009, the $400 check from Alvarez was deposited in Abramski's bank account, and the next day Abramski transferred the Glock 19 handgun to Alvarez at a licensed federal firearms dealer in Easton, Pennsylvania. At that time, Alvarez gave Abramski a receipt confirming the transfer, reflecting that Alvarez had purchased the Glock 19 handgun for $400."


There is a caveat though..........the check was dated two days prior to the date Abramski bought the gun............but not cashed until after the purchase of the gun by Abramski from the FFL.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

................

If the money comes from the other guy then the OP can't mark yes on the question that asks if he is the actual buyer.

In the Abramski case he bought the gun with his money and the uncle paid for it 3 days later by sending a check for $400 to him.

In this case the guy outstate is buying a pistol with his CC money and the OP is sending him another pistol.............then the outstate guy will send the gun he bought with the sole intention of going to the OP after receiving the traded gun.

How is this any different than Abramski?

ETA:  Quote from 4CA opinion on facts:

"J.A. 585 (emphasis on Form 4473).[fn1] Abramski checked the answer "Yes" to question ll.a. Three days later, on November 20, 2009, the $400 check from Alvarez was deposited in Abramski's bank account, and the next day Abramski transferred the Glock 19 handgun to Alvarez at a licensed federal firearms dealer in Easton, Pennsylvania. At that time, Alvarez gave Abramski a receipt confirming the transfer, reflecting that Alvarez had purchased the Glock 19 handgun for $400."


There is a caveat though..........the check was dated two days prior to the date Abramski bought the gun............but not cashed until after the purchase of the gun by Abramski from the FFL.

I think you and I agree that what the op is describing is not kosher right?
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 7:10:47 PM EDT
[#8]
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Any chance you can link those videos because that is not at all what we were told. Don't get me wrong I think it should be that way but many of the stores here that is a absolute no go.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.


That's fine, as long as OP is the one ending up w/ the gun.  A straw purchase would occur if OP filled out the 4473, the other guy paid for it, and the OTHER GUY ended up w/ the gun.

In ATF's own instructional videos for gun dealers, they explicitly state it's ok for someone else to pay @ the register, as long as the person who's ending up w/ the gun did the 4473.


Any chance you can link those videos because that is not at all what we were told. Don't get me wrong I think it should be that way but many of the stores here that is a absolute no go.


Sorry, they were training videos I had to watch in order to work behind the gun counter.  They were marked BATFE & were part of their "Don't lie for the other guy" program, as far as I know.  We regularly allow other customers to pay for the gun that someone else filled out the 4473 on.  Usually husbands and wives, but also father/children, etc.

It's a no go for me if it's clear that the gun is for X, and Y says he'll fill out the paper work.  If it's for X, X fills out the paperwork, and I don't care if Y, Z, or K pays.

I'm not understanding why OP's debtor doesn't just give the cash to OP, and let OP do w/ it what he likes.  However, as I understand it, if X & OP are in the same state, there's no problem @ all if OP fills out the 4473 & receives the gun, and X pays for it.  OP is the actual transferee @ that point.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 7:35:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


Buyer is filling one out since he is in a different state.  

By my understanding of the OP, the buyer owes OP for a service.  Buyer is going to buy a gun at his LGS (4473 for buyer).  Buyer is then going to ship the gun to OP's FFL in OP's state of residence.  OP fills out 4473 at his LGS and takes possession of it.
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Quoted:

But in OP's scenario he is filling out 4473 while other guy pays for it.


Buyer is filling one out since he is in a different state.  

By my understanding of the OP, the buyer owes OP for a service.  Buyer is going to buy a gun at his LGS (4473 for buyer).  Buyer is then going to ship the gun to OP's FFL in OP's state of residence.  OP fills out 4473 at his LGS and takes possession of it.

I think it would be a better idea and legal for the other guy (OG) to pay for the gun, but have it shipped directly to the OP's FFL in the OP's state without the OG taking possession.  The OG filling out a 4473 for a gun that is really for someone else would likely be a problem.
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