Some Notes on the Swiss Firearms Experience (and Some 5.56 NATO Ammo for Sane Gun Policy Advocates) - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Some Notes on the Swiss Firearms Experience (and Some 5.56 NATO Ammo for Sane Gun Policy Advocates) (Page 3 of 3)

Posted: 12/18/2012 12:15:22 AM EDT

[#1]

Posted to my blog here: http://frayadjacent.net/2012/12/switzerlandguns/

Feel free to hotlink if anyone needs to.

Posted: 12/18/2012 12:47:11 AM EDT

[#2]

Bravo. Tag.

Posted: 12/18/2012 1:14:59 AM EDT

[#3]

Austrian, the GOAB comes back with this:
"The confusion arises from the fact that it is not possible to aquire more than 3 guns with a permit, but you can own more than three weapons, e.g. if you inherit them, receive a gift..."

Comment? Link to proof one way or another?

Posted: 12/18/2012 3:30:09 AM EDT

[#4]

I guess this means the UN can now focus on pushing for extreme gun control in Switzerland.

Good grief. I'm watching Piers Morgan Tonight. I'm not sure of the original air date. He is just going on and on about how shameful the US is with their attitudes. He had DiFi on about 10 minutes ago and has taken a harder stance on guns than any media person I've ever seen. Now, he is hauling in family of gun the school shootings and leading everyone to advocate and press politicians for reasonable gun control.

Aurora victims and family up now.

What will the weapon of choice be after a gun ban?

Posted: 12/18/2012 3:59:13 AM EDT

[#5]

my hat's off to you, sir.

Posted: 12/18/2012 5:08:28 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Austrian, the GOAB comes back with this:
"The confusion arises from the fact that it is not possible to aquire more than 3 guns with a permit, but you can own more than three weapons, e.g. if you inherit them, receive a gift..."

Comment? Link to proof one way or another?

Really not sure what that means. If there's a statute on that I don't know where it is. I suppose one of the kantons might be imposing limits, but at the federal level? Certainly that's not described in the statute for the license to purchase. (There isn't really a "license to possess" other than the license to carry).

*mystified*

Posted: 12/18/2012 5:12:31 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That's it, I'm moving to Switzerland.

I am a researcher. It is questionable how this woman was allowed her Ph. D.

The majority of people with PhDs are NOT competent or properly trained researchers. A substantial proportion are complete fucking morons.

I'm shocked to hear of such things...

Posted: 12/18/2012 5:20:19 AM EDT

[#8]

Great post !!!

Posted: 12/18/2012 5:21:12 AM EDT

[#9]

Jesus, somebody sticky this. This is gold.

Posted: 12/18/2012 5:43:00 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Posted to my blog here: http://frayadjacent.net/2012/12/switzerlandguns/

Feel free to hotlink if anyone needs to.

One of my liberal FB buddies linked to the Rosenbaum article. I knew it was bullshit the moment I read it. I now have a credible link to counter all of her weak arguments.

Posted: 12/18/2012 10:33:25 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
One of my liberal FB buddies

They've got a cream for that now.

Posted: 12/18/2012 11:25:50 AM EDT

[#12]

tag

Posted: 12/18/2012 12:35:32 PM EDT

[#13]

Awesome post! Thanks much for the work you put into this. I'd love to be able to link to this.

Also, if you are ever in Indiana, the food, beer, and range time are on me!

Posted: 12/18/2012 1:04:13 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Switzerland IS a "gun toting utopia." Come visit. We'll take you shooting.

Have questions? Need clarifications or (gasp) more statistics? Post your needs in comments. I will happily dig out whatever you need to batter back the forces of darkness and ignorance. (Well, within reason. The forces of darkness and ignorance have had a pretty good recruiting season the last half-decade).

Very good job. Thank you for that. Will you sponsor my family (half Norwegian) for Swiss citizenship?

Posted: 12/18/2012 3:46:52 PM EDT

[#15]

Austrian,

Some dude commented on the post on my blog. I added it pretty much verbatim from your OP here. Here's what he said:

That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to [...] purchase firearms and ammunition.

This statement is wrong. Please read again:

Art. 9b1 Gültigkeit des Waffenerwerbsscheins

1 Der Waffenerwerbsschein gilt für die ganze Schweiz und ermächtigt zum Erwerb einer einzigen Waffe oder eines einzigen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteils.

3 Der Waffenerwerbsschein ist sechs Monate gültig. Die zuständige Behörde kann die Gültigkeit um höchstens drei Monate verlängern.

The purchase permit lasts six months, with the possibility for another three, then it is void.

Otherwise you are very impolite.

From his email address, he's in Germany.

If you can, reply to him on my blog, the link is in one of my posts earlier.

Posted: 12/19/2012 2:57:54 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Awesome post! Thanks much for the work you put into this. I'd love to be able to link to this.

Please do!

Also, if you are ever in Indiana, the food, beer, and range time are on me!

Likely I will never return to the US. But I DO appreciate the offer.

Posted: 12/19/2012 3:02:05 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Austrian,

Some dude commented on the post on my blog. I added it pretty much verbatim from your OP here. Here's what he said:

That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to [...] purchase firearms and ammunition.

This statement is wrong. Please read again:

Art. 9b1 Gültigkeit des Waffenerwerbsscheins

1 Der Waffenerwerbsschein gilt für die ganze Schweiz und ermächtigt zum Erwerb einer einzigen Waffe oder eines einzigen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteils.

3 Der Waffenerwerbsschein ist sechs Monate gültig. Die zuständige Behörde kann die Gültigkeit um höchstens drei Monate verlängern.

The purchase permit lasts six months, with the possibility for another three, then it is void.

Otherwise you are very impolite.

From his email address, he's in Germany.

If you can, reply to him on my blog, the link is in one of my posts earlier.

This is the permit to BUY a firearm. It's good for the purchase of one firearm. Once you get it you have 6 months to buy before you need to get another permit to BUY. The kanton has the option of granting an extension of 3 months on the permit to BUY if it is expired. For a german he has a pretty weak understanding of the word "erwerb" (acquisition)... as in Waffenerwerbsschein. (Weapon Acquisition Permit).

There is no "license to POSSESS".

Sheesh.

Posted: 12/26/2012 3:45:14 AM EDT

[#18]

Austrian, would you be willing to take some questions from a researcher (pro gun)? Your inbox is full.

Posted: 12/26/2012 5:11:53 AM EDT

[#19]

Nice work!

And I hate you. I'd really like to have a real SIG 550.

Posted: 12/26/2012 5:28:02 AM EDT

[#20]

Kaboom.

Dropped a bomb on that bitch ...

Makes me want to visit Switzerland.

Posted: 12/26/2012 6:11:32 AM EDT

[#21]

Posted: 12/27/2012 8:45:13 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Austrian, would you be willing to take some questions from a researcher (pro gun)? Your inbox is full.

Sure, what's up?

Posted: 12/27/2012 8:51:19 AM EDT

[#23]

Thank you for this very clear post compatriot !

Posted: 12/27/2012 8:56:09 AM EDT

[#24]

Once it's figured out what will be happening here, I'll have to send a fe dollars to Pro Tell!

Posted: 12/27/2012 8:58:50 AM EDT

[#25]

I remember the good fight to beat the anti gunners in the 2011 referendum against gun rights..

I put a lot of time and energy into the fight, with a team formed on another forum.. Been to tv shows, posted hundred times on newspaper etc. it paid off in the end !

We celebrated victory with these

Posted: 12/27/2012 9:01:01 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Austrian, I've seen it claimed that Switzerland bans possession of more then 3 guns. Is that an accurate statement?

HAHAHAH

That was funny

Posted: 12/27/2012 9:04:30 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Austrian, the GOAB comes back with this:
"The confusion arises from the fact that it is not possible to aquire more than 3 guns with a permit, but you can own more than three weapons, e.g. if you inherit them, receive a gift..."

Comment? Link to proof one way or another?

Really not sure what that means. If there's a statute on that I don't know where it is. I suppose one of the kantons might be imposing limits, but at the federal level? Certainly that's not described in the statute for the license to purchase. (There isn't really a "license to possess" other than the license to carry).

*mystified*

A purchase permit allow to the purchase of up to 3 guns from the same seller, all at the same time. Sme cantons now don't allow the exception to 3 but only one.

The thing is at you can get as many purchase permits as you want. You can buy 100 at a time if you wish so...

These permits are merely a tax, as they cost 50$ each... Cantons limit to 1 gun to permit is a disguised tax increase, and an artificial way to slow down gun purchases..

People like me always filled the permit with 2 extra guns, even if only was really the goal of the purchase.

Posted: 12/27/2012 9:06:05 AM EDT

[#28]

Fantastic post mien Herr. And best regards from (I'm sure) all the Old Timers to you and your sister.

Posted: 12/27/2012 9:08:53 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Thank you for this very clear post compatriot !

My pleasure!

Posted: 12/27/2012 9:12:24 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Austrian,

Some dude commented on the post on my blog. I added it pretty much verbatim from your OP here. Here's what he said:

That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to [...] purchase firearms and ammunition.

This statement is wrong. Please read again:

Art. 9b1 Gültigkeit des Waffenerwerbsscheins

1 Der Waffenerwerbsschein gilt für die ganze Schweiz und ermächtigt zum Erwerb einer einzigen Waffe oder eines einzigen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteils.

3 Der Waffenerwerbsschein ist sechs Monate gültig. Die zuständige Behörde kann die Gültigkeit um höchstens drei Monate verlängern.

The purchase permit lasts six months, with the possibility for another three, then it is void.

Otherwise you are very impolite.

From his email address, he's in Germany.

If you can, reply to him on my blog, the link is in one of my posts earlier.

This is the permit to BUY a firearm. It's good for the purchase of one firearm. Once you get it you have 6 months to buy before you need to get another permit to BUY. The kanton has the option of granting an extension of 3 months on the permit to BUY if it is expired. For a german he has a pretty weak understanding of the word "erwerb" (acquisition)... as in Waffenerwerbsschein. (Weapon Acquisition Permit).

There is no "license to POSSESS".

Sheesh.

Right. We have no permit to own guns in the country. Possession is a right, and is granted withing the law. Same law says that purchase and carry is also a right. Unless you are a felon, there is no way they can bar you from obtaining a purchase permit.

As far as carry permits go, since 1999 it's bullshit, as we have turned into "may issue" and the police departments who deliver them are using stupid arguments to deny them to people.

The law says that you need to prove that you are under a "tangible" danger/threat to obtain a carry permit... Thing is, statistically, 99% of the victims of crime could never have proved this tangible danger/threat , but still were badly in need for a gun when it happened.

On the other hand, too many times, people with a lot of money, or with political ties, get said permits without much troubles... It has become a priviledge and not a right, and it is a shame.

For example. A guy working in a restaurant in the "red light district" of Geneva, and having to walk home every night at 3am, will never get the carry permit.. On the other hand, a guy working on the classiest part of town, in a bank, and having to carry some case full of money once in a while to a bank nearby, often gets one..

When statistics and facts show that the 1st guy would need a gun much more than the 2nd ... We need to fight this and win.

Posted: 12/27/2012 11:45:30 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Austrian,

Some dude commented on the post on my blog. I added it pretty much verbatim from your OP here. Here's what he said:

That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to [...] purchase firearms and ammunition.

This statement is wrong. Please read again:

Art. 9b1 Gültigkeit des Waffenerwerbsscheins

1 Der Waffenerwerbsschein gilt für die ganze Schweiz und ermächtigt zum Erwerb einer einzigen Waffe oder eines einzigen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteils.

3 Der Waffenerwerbsschein ist sechs Monate gültig. Die zuständige Behörde kann die Gültigkeit um höchstens drei Monate verlängern.

The purchase permit lasts six months, with the possibility for another three, then it is void.

Otherwise you are very impolite.

From his email address, he's in Germany.

If you can, reply to him on my blog, the link is in one of my posts earlier.

This is the permit to BUY a firearm. It's good for the purchase of one firearm. Once you get it you have 6 months to buy before you need to get another permit to BUY. The kanton has the option of granting an extension of 3 months on the permit to BUY if it is expired. For a german he has a pretty weak understanding of the word "erwerb" (acquisition)... as in Waffenerwerbsschein. (Weapon Acquisition Permit).

There is no "license to POSSESS".

Sheesh.

Right. We have no permit to own guns in the country. Possession is a right, and is granted withing the law. Same law says that purchase and carry is also a right. Unless you are a felon, there is no way they can bar you from obtaining a purchase permit.

As far as carry permits go, since 1999 it's bullshit, as we have turned into "may issue" and the police departments who deliver them are using stupid arguments to deny them to people.

The law says that you need to prove that you are under a "tangible" danger/threat to obtain a carry permit... Thing is, statistically, 99% of the victims of crime could never have proved this tangible danger/threat , but still were badly in need for a gun when it happened.

On the other hand, too many times, people with a lot of money, or with political ties, get said permits without much troubles... It has become a priviledge and not a right, and it is a shame.

For example. A guy working in a restaurant in the "red light district" of Geneva, and having to walk home every night at 3am, will never get the carry permit.. On the other hand, a guy working on the classiest part of town, in a bank, and having to carry some case full of money once in a while to a bank nearby, often gets one..

When statistics and facts show that the 1st guy would need a gun much more than the 2nd ... We need to fight this and win.

I hope you do.

Are there any places where the practice is effectively shall-issue? California is may-issue and it can vary by county and city from being more restrictive than the example you give to being shall-issue in practice, and of course, everything in-between, but what you described is the norm in the majority of cities and counties here.

Regarding purchase permits, sounds a lot like the practice of tax stamps, which go back a long ways in this country (predating its founding; we had some issues with Parliament imposing taxes of that type, that required a stamp for purchase of things like paper goods). We have to get tax stamps to purchase certain categories of weapons, although it is not a simple matter of just paying the tax to be permitted to purchase the item.

Posted: 12/27/2012 12:20:27 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Austrian,

Some dude commented on the post on my blog. I added it pretty much verbatim from your OP here. Here's what he said:

That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to [...] purchase firearms and ammunition.

This statement is wrong. Please read again:

Art. 9b1 Gültigkeit des Waffenerwerbsscheins

1 Der Waffenerwerbsschein gilt für die ganze Schweiz und ermächtigt zum Erwerb einer einzigen Waffe oder eines einzigen wesentlichen Waffenbestandteils.

3 Der Waffenerwerbsschein ist sechs Monate gültig. Die zuständige Behörde kann die Gültigkeit um höchstens drei Monate verlängern.

The purchase permit lasts six months, with the possibility for another three, then it is void.

Otherwise you are very impolite.

From his email address, he's in Germany.

If you can, reply to him on my blog, the link is in one of my posts earlier.

This is the permit to BUY a firearm. It's good for the purchase of one firearm. Once you get it you have 6 months to buy before you need to get another permit to BUY. The kanton has the option of granting an extension of 3 months on the permit to BUY if it is expired. For a german he has a pretty weak understanding of the word "erwerb" (acquisition)... as in Waffenerwerbsschein. (Weapon Acquisition Permit).

There is no "license to POSSESS".

Sheesh.

Right. We have no permit to own guns in the country. Possession is a right, and is granted withing the law. Same law says that purchase and carry is also a right. Unless you are a felon, there is no way they can bar you from obtaining a purchase permit.

As far as carry permits go, since 1999 it's bullshit, as we have turned into "may issue" and the police departments who deliver them are using stupid arguments to deny them to people.

The law says that you need to prove that you are under a "tangible" danger/threat to obtain a carry permit... Thing is, statistically, 99% of the victims of crime could never have proved this tangible danger/threat , but still were badly in need for a gun when it happened.

On the other hand, too many times, people with a lot of money, or with political ties, get said permits without much troubles... It has become a priviledge and not a right, and it is a shame.

For example. A guy working in a restaurant in the "red light district" of Geneva, and having to walk home every night at 3am, will never get the carry permit.. On the other hand, a guy working on the classiest part of town, in a bank, and having to carry some case full of money once in a while to a bank nearby, often gets one..

When statistics and facts show that the 1st guy would need a gun much more than the 2nd ... We need to fight this and win.

I hope you do.

Are there any places where the practice is effectively shall-issue? California is may-issue and it can vary by county and city from being more restrictive than the example you give to being shall-issue in practice, and of course, everything in-between, but what you described is the norm in the majority of cities and counties here.

Regarding purchase permits, sounds a lot like the practice of tax stamps, which go back a long ways in this country (predating its founding; we had some issues with Parliament imposing taxes of that type, that required a stamp for purchase of things like paper goods). We have to get tax stamps to purchase certain categories of weapons, although it is not a simple matter of just paying the tax to be permitted to purchase the item.

Before 1999 the law was not federal, and in half the Kantons, a legally owned gun could be carried concealed without the need of any kind of permit. The country was safer than it is now.

Since 1999 the law is federal and all Kantons have a may issue policy. Some are more cooperative than others in giving them, but most are very reluctant to..

A right became a priviledge..

Posted: 12/27/2012 1:30:25 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Austrian, would you be willing to take some questions from a researcher (pro gun)? Your inbox is full.

Sure, what's up?

I have a question:

Where the hell have you been?

Posted: 12/27/2012 1:49:46 PM EDT

[#34]

Honestly Switzerland is the only place in Eurpoe that I desire to visit.

Posted: 12/27/2012 6:44:12 PM EDT

[#35]

Awesome thread and info. Thanks a lot for your time and patience helping to clarify all the misinformation posted by the current administration and the media.