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Posted: 12/26/2012 9:54:06 AM EDT
[#1]
why are you torn OP? as previously state in another thread, they're foreign invaders and should be treated as such.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:09:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
why are you torn OP? as previously state in another thread, they're foreign invaders and should be treated as such. If that were true then they are subject to military law...which they are not so no. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:56:28 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal. Isn't the Bill of Rights a list of natural rights that are inalienable and universal? I always thought so. "Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable."
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Posted: 12/26/2012 11:01:33 AM EDT
[#4]
They can own all the guns they want as far as I'm concerned... In their own fucking country.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 11:15:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 11:19:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns.  Bingo. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 12:12:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns. Bingo. Just because another country tries to suppress your inalienable and universal right to bear arms doesn't mean you don't have that right or makes it ok for anyone to suppress that right. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 12:40:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal. Isn't the Bill of Rights a list of natural rights that are inalienable and universal? I always thought so. "Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable." ayup. They shouldn't get FSA benefits, but they shouldnt be denied rights that we the people recognized as universal. The right to self defense is one of thorse rights. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 12:45:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Exactly, Quoted: Quoted: Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal. Isn't the Bill of Rights a list of natural rights that are inalienable and universal? I always thought so. "Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable." ayup. They shouldn't get FSA benefits, but they shouldnt be denied rights that we the people recognized as universal. The right to self defense is one of thorse rights. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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Posted: 12/26/2012 12:49:54 PM EDT
[#10]
By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 12:58:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. Unless you've been convicted of a felony, you're not a felon. That guy who claimed to kill someone? No law prevents him from purchasing a firearm. I love the "if you committed a crime, even if you didn't get convicted, you can't have a gun" argument. How fast were you driving today? |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 1:17:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns. Bingo. Just because another country tries to suppress your inalienable and universal right to bear arms doesn't mean you don't have that right or makes it ok for anyone to suppress that right. Fair enough. I will support their right to bear arms just as I support deporting them to the place they legally belong. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:08:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns. Bingo. Just because another country tries to suppress your inalienable and universal right to bear arms doesn't mean you don't have that right or makes it ok for anyone to suppress that right. Fair enough. I will support their right to bear arms just as I support deporting them to the place they legally belong. That's how I see it. They hae the RKBA and the right to their property, and I think it would be wrong to charge them for firearm possession and the like simply because they are illegals, but I definitely want them shipped out. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:16:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:17:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They are criminals. Tell you what, you sneak into another country and see if it's ok that you posess guns. Bingo. Just because another country tries to suppress your inalienable and universal right to bear arms doesn't mean you don't have that right or makes it ok for anyone to suppress that right. Fair enough. I will support their right to bear arms just as I support deporting them to the place they legally belong. No one said anything about not deporting them. All people have a inalienable and universal right to bear arms, and in this case the Fourth Circuit has decided that the right to bear arms isn't inalienable and universal. If you believe that our Creator has endowed us, us being humanity, with certain inalienable rights then illegal aliens have the right to bear arms. This isn't to say they shouldn't be deported. ETA: I'm a tard and was using the term "unalienable" instead of "inalienable" |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:19:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. As someone pointed out, just because you admitted to murdering five people doesn't mean you've been through due process and that until he's convicted in a court of law he's still able to purchase and bear firearms. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:29:23 PM EDT
[#17]
I think it's a great decision.
I'm not in the "everybody should own whatever weapons they want" camp. If an illegal immigrant can legally buy a gun, why the hell should I have to fill out paperwork and show ID to buy the same thing? Criminals and the mentally ill shouldn't have access to weapons. Illegal immigrants are criminals, so no guns for them. Edit: Yes, people have natural rights, but there are ways to loose those rights. Commit a crime, and you go to jail. Criminals in jail don't have second amendment rights, do they? Jail is a form of taking your rights away. Commit the crime of illegally entering the country, and your second amendment right is taken away. Simple to understand, right? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:32:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/115063.P.pdf I'm a little torn. On the one paw, they're in the U.S. illegally. On the other paw, the right to self-defense doesn't have any geographic boundaries, and guns are an integral part of self-defense. The Fourth Circuit also insists that "intermediate scrutiny" is the proper standard at the start, then says "we evaluate this law under rational basis". What the fuck? How do you switch from one to the other in the middle of a decision? Still there is no agreement by the SC on level of scrutiny, regardless of this decision. I think the rational basis is not reasonable restrictions but I could be wrong and hope by rational they were still adhering to only intermediate. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 2:37:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I think it's a great decision. I'm not in the "everybody should own whatever weapons they want" camp. If an illegal immigrant can legally buy a gun, why the hell should I have to fill out paperwork and show ID to buy the same thing? Criminals and the mentally ill shouldn't have access to weapons. Illegal immigrants are criminals, so no guns for them. Edit: Yes, people have natural rights, but there are ways to loose those rights. Commit a crime, and you go to jail. Criminals in jail don't have second amendment rights, do they? Jail is a form of taking your rights away. Commit the crime of illegally entering the country, and your second amendment right is taken away. Simple to understand, right? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Who's saying that an immigrant should be able to skip the ID check and paperwork? How do you know someone has entered illegally? Are you comfortable revoking someone's rights without due process? |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Historically, illegals do not enjoy second amendment protection. SOME amendments do apply to them though. First, fourth, fifth, eighth, etc
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Posted: 12/26/2012 3:30:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. As someone pointed out, just because you admitted to murdering five people doesn't mean you've been through due process and that until he's convicted in a court of law he's still able to purchase and bear firearms. Im sorry but I don't think the authors of the constitution or bill of rights would have agreed with your extreme point of view. No society can thrive that gives its lawbreakers the ability to kill. Everyone on this side of the fence always seems to ignore the many sentiments of the founding fathers we quote and case law from young America to make our country sound more like what they want than what it really was. Ben Franklin probably would have answered this thread with one of his own quotes, which many ignore: "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 5:06:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Historically, illegals do not enjoy second amendment protection. SOME amendments do apply to them though. First, fourth, fifth, eighth, etc Historically Americans did not enjoy the second amendment as an individual right, thank you Heller. For years in civics classes my textbooks made little or no mention of the second. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:33:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: I think it's a great decision. I'm not in the "everybody should own whatever weapons they want" camp. If an illegal immigrant can legally buy a gun, why the hell should I have to fill out paperwork and show ID to buy the same thing? Criminals and the mentally ill shouldn't have access to weapons. Illegal immigrants are criminals, so no guns for them. Edit: Yes, people have natural rights, but there are ways to loose those rights. Commit a crime, and you go to jail. Criminals in jail don't have second amendment rights, do they? Jail is a form of taking your rights away. Commit the crime of illegally entering the country, and your second amendment right is taken away. Simple to understand, right? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile But you can only lose those rights through due process. Criminals can still buy guns and have a right too, it's only convicted criminals (ie those that have had their due process) that can't. Are you going on the record as saying you believe the government should be able to restrict people's inalienable and universal rights to bear arms without due process? I find that a weird position for someone on ARFCOM to take. You either believe that the 2nd amendment is a natural right, one that is inalienable and universal or, you don't. Frankly I believe that a right that is conveyed to humanity from the Creator is universal. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:35:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. As someone pointed out, just because you admitted to murdering five people doesn't mean you've been through due process and that until he's convicted in a court of law he's still able to purchase and bear firearms. Im sorry but I don't think the authors of the constitution or bill of rights would have agreed with your extreme point of view. No society can thrive that gives its lawbreakers the ability to kill. Everyone on this side of the fence always seems to ignore the many sentiments of the founding fathers we quote and case law from young America to make our country sound more like what they want than what it really was. Ben Franklin probably would have answered this thread with one of his own quotes, which many ignore: "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." So if you have committed some crime you should not be able to own guns? Ever gone 20 mph over the speed limit? If you have, turn in your guns immediately, you have committed a felony and thus are a criminal that can't own guns. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:38:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Historically, illegals do not enjoy second amendment protection. SOME amendments do apply to them though. First, fourth, fifth, eighth, etc Are illegal immigrants individuals? In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court has stated that the 2nd amendment is a right of the people: The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:48:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Historically, illegals do not enjoy second amendment protection. SOME amendments do apply to them though. First, fourth, fifth, eighth, etc Are illegal immigrants individuals? In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court has stated that the 2nd amendment is a right of the people: The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. And case law as far back as the 1800s defines "the people" as citizens of the US.. Not illegals. Whatever world you're living in.. It's just not consistent with the real world |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:49:15 PM EDT
[#27]
A right either is granted by a written legal document, or is an inherant inalienable right derived by their creator, it can't be both.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:49:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Tee hee |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:50:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
But you can only lose those rights through due process. Criminals can still buy guns and have a right too, it's only convicted criminals (ie those that have had their due process) that can't. Are you going on the record as saying you believe the government should be able to restrict people's inalienable and universal rights to bear arms without due process? I find that a weird position for someone on ARFCOM to take. Yes, absolutely. Felons, socialists, the mentally ill, and children should have their right to own firearms restricted. Think of it this way: If there was an uninvited guest in your house, would you arm him? Where would due process enter the picture? The guy is in your house, and you didn't invite him. No investigation needed. Bad analogy, I know, but I think the principle is the same. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:53:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. As someone pointed out, just because you admitted to murdering five people doesn't mean you've been through due process and that until he's convicted in a court of law he's still able to purchase and bear firearms. Im sorry but I don't think the authors of the constitution or bill of rights would have agreed with your extreme point of view. No society can thrive that gives its lawbreakers the ability to kill. Everyone on this side of the fence always seems to ignore the many sentiments of the founding fathers we quote and case law from young America to make our country sound more like what they want than what it really was. Ben Franklin probably would have answered this thread with one of his own quotes, which many ignore: "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." So if you have committed some crime you should not be able to own guns? Ever gone 20 mph over the speed limit? If you have, turn in your guns immediately, you have committed a felony and thus are a criminal that can't own guns. Where in America is driving 20 mph over the speed limit a felony? 
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:53:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
A right either is granted by a written legal document, or is an inherant inalienable right derived by their creator, it can't be both. Why don't people in jail have second or fourth amendment rights? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:59:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A right either is granted by a written legal document, or is an inherant inalienable right derived by their creator, it can't be both. Why don't people in jail have second or fourth amendment rights? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Because legal due process has been enacted agaist them by the state to deprive them of such, as also outlined in the Constitution. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:01:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take. This |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:01:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A right either is granted by a written legal document, or is an inherent inalienable right derived by their creator, it can't be both. Why don't people in jail have second or fourth amendment rights? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Due process can take away inalienable rights...according to the constitution it is the only way to deprive men of inalienable rights. But the constitution is very clear that these rights were god given not granted by the government. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:06:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Due process can take away inalienable rights...according to the constitution it is the only way to deprive men of inalienable rights. But the constitution is very clear that these rights were god given not granted by the government. In reality they were taken by men with guns and kept by men with guns. But that's for a different thread. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:12:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Due process can take away inalienable rights...according to the constitution it is the only way to deprive men of inalienable rights. But the constitution is very clear that these rights were god given not granted by the government. In reality they were taken by men with guns and kept by men with guns. But that's for a different thread. If you believe that rights come from force rather than existing as some universal system, then there's nothing wrong with you saying immigrants shouldn't be allowed to have firearms. 
This is more about those who think rights are inalienable, but somehow only for US citizens. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:13:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Due process can take away inalienable rights...according to the constitution it is the only way to deprive men of inalienable rights. But the constitution is very clear that these rights were god given not granted by the government. In reality they were taken by men with guns and kept by men with guns. But that's for a different thread. Don't be obtuse, if you don't belive in god that is your buisness take that agenda else where...you knew exactly what I meant. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:17:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Don't be obtuse, if you don't belive in god that is your buisness take that agenda else where...you knew exactly what I meant. What does believing in God have to do with anything?  |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:25:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take. This. Exactly. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:34:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Carry a gun in Mexico and let me know how that works out for ya... This... - georgestrings |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:40:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
I believe that the right to bear arms, right to freedom of speech, right to freedom of association, etc. are universal human rights. I believe that they should have those rights in their home countries and I believe they should get the fuck out of mine. THIS in all its no-nonsense glory. 
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:46:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal. So, are rights inherent, or granted by government. You seem to suggest the latter. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:48:16 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: If they are in danger, they should run back to their homeland. fify |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 8:49:07 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They're not US citizens. They're here illegally. By law, they're criminals. Criminals shouldn't own guns. Just my take. First post knocks it out of the park Hope you guys never drive into NY/NJ. Better not take your guns if you do. I hope nobody decides to rob you or rape you while you're there. You couldn't get me to visit those states if they were giving away free double cheeseburgers. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:01:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Historically, illegals do not enjoy second amendment protection. SOME amendments do apply to them though. First, fourth, fifth, eighth, etc Are illegal immigrants individuals? In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court has stated that the 2nd amendment is a right of the people: The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. And case law as far back as the 1800s defines "the people" as citizens of the US.. Not illegals. Whatever world you're living in.. It's just not consistent with the real world So is the second amendment a universal and inalienable right or is it not? |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:03:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: And case law as far back as the 1800s defines "the people" as citizens of the US.. Not illegals. Whatever world you're living in.. It's just not consistent with the real world So is the second amendment a universal and inalienable right or is it not? Well, if it is universal and inalienable, it doesn't matter what case law says about it. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:03:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: You got one thing right. Quoted: But you can only lose those rights through due process. Criminals can still buy guns and have a right too, it's only convicted criminals (ie those that have had their due process) that can't. Are you going on the record as saying you believe the government should be able to restrict people's inalienable and universal rights to bear arms without due process? I find that a weird position for someone on ARFCOM to take. Yes, absolutely. Felons, socialists, the mentally ill, and children should have their right to own firearms restricted. Think of it this way: If there was an uninvited guest in your house, would you arm him? Where would due process enter the picture? The guy is in your house, and you didn't invite him. No investigation needed. Bad analogy, I know, but I think the principle is the same. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile So is the second amendment a god-given right inherent to all mankind or is it granted to you by the government?
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:08:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: By this standard, anyone who walks into a gun shop and admits they've just murdered five people would be allowed to buys gun as well... I appreciate due process, but if you are here illegally, you are basically admitting that you are a criminal and in my book have forfeited your rights in this country. As someone pointed out, just because you admitted to murdering five people doesn't mean you've been through due process and that until he's convicted in a court of law he's still able to purchase and bear firearms. Im sorry but I don't think the authors of the constitution or bill of rights would have agreed with your extreme point of view. No society can thrive that gives its lawbreakers the ability to kill. Everyone on this side of the fence always seems to ignore the many sentiments of the founding fathers we quote and case law from young America to make our country sound more like what they want than what it really was. Ben Franklin probably would have answered this thread with one of his own quotes, which many ignore: "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." So if you have committed some crime you should not be able to own guns? Ever gone 20 mph over the speed limit? If you have, turn in your guns immediately, you have committed a felony and thus are a criminal that can't own guns. Where in America is driving 20 mph over the speed limit a felony? Holy crap, learn something new everyday....I just googled it and something that I've heard for all of my life, felony speeding, isn't actually a felony. Felony speeding is a term I've heard for a long time, I've always thought that was bullcrap! Point still stands though, you don't lose your gun rights until you have had due process. |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:11:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: A right either is granted by a written legal document, or is an inherant inalienable right derived by their creator, it can't be both. Why don't people in jail have second or fourth amendment rights? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The text of the Fifth Amendment, relevant part in red: |
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:28:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Our second amendment (or any other amendment) doesn't apply to an illegal. Not true. Except where citizens are specified, rights of persons are protected. Under that logic, we can deny any non-citizen, legal or not, due process of law nand throw them in jail for whatever we want, whether or not they did anything criminal. Of course, many here will argue exactly that if the person (and sometimes even a citizen) is alleged to have committed certain crimes. +1 |
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