No, I still only spent 75 mins top. Usually 60mins. I'd sprint in the morning for cardio.

It was the way I lift. 5x5 is going to get everyone stronger, but it isn't gonna get everyone bigger. There's no real explaining it without breaking down every muscle and every movement because the way you train one muscle is vastly different style than another, but the gist of it was imagine whatever muscle you're training shot your dog and required a good torturing.

Seated bicep curls for example. Done bilaterally. Light weight. incredibly strict. 25-30lb dumbbells. 20 reps. Contract quickly and hold the top for 1 second, keep the muscle flexed while lowering and never lose tension on the bottom. Once reps are completed stand up and strict curl 40-50lb barbell using the same technique until failure. Once completed drop to a single 25lb dumbbell and perform "waiter's curls" to failure. That completes 1 set of 4. You don't rest between movements. Following sets will be done with the same weight but "cheating" would be implemented to insure you achieve the peak of the contraction. And there were more exercises to do after that. I'd have a hard time washing my hair for the next 3 days because my arms ached so bad.

Legs would be 50rep sets. Side note: I have a 505lb squat and I once was under a bar with a 25lb plate on each side saying "I can't" while my trainer chided me and called me a little bitch as well other non manly things.

Most back movements would be heavy as hell and honestly looked like every single rep was being cheated because for size we prioritize the contraction over the lift as a whole.

Chest would involve a fuck ton of negatives and overloading with partial reps upon failure.

Also the diet was ridiculously on point so I didn't die.

Sounds like you were into BDSM

No way I'd be able to follow that,  but kudos to you.

Mind elaborating?

Skinny guys always think they're eating enough to gain muscle, but they usually aren't.

Use celebrities as an example.  Bradley Cooper, Hugh Jackman, and Henry Cavill are good examples of skinny guys who packed on a lot of muscle fairly quickly for roles and they all said the worst part was the nonstop eating when they weren't hungry.

What to eat that isn't processed crap?

I am up to about 150g of protein a day. Hope to be around 200.

Going to find a daily eating app to track it all.

You need 1.5-2g of protein per pound of lean body weight as a skinny guy.

You're not going to enjoy food if you want to really gain.  Chicken, Salmon, Eggs, Tofu.  Anything protein dense.

I'm just around 195lbs. That means almost 300s of protein tops?

No, 200 hundred grams would be a good start, if you include a whey drink it should get you close enough,

Do that. You'll be amazed at how little you actually eat.

I personally stopped tracking calories. it got to be a bit annoying trying to hit certain numbers. Now I eat by weight and I eat very little variety ...pretty much the same thing every day... just to make it even easier. Cook it all up the night before and throw it in containers.

My usual breakfast is 6 eggs, an english muffin or pan fried potato chunks, and half an avocado. After thats out of the way my standard daily ration (split into four meals) is 2.5lbs of sirloin and chicken, 2lbs of sweet potatoes, 1lbs of avocado, and a handful of raw spinach with every meal.

Agreed. The first time I got serious about gaining weight I hated it every time I had to eat when I wasn't hungry.

I had to fight to keep food down. But I also went from 185lbs "I can't gain weight no matter what" to 230lbs "No please....no more potatoes and chicken. Wait. How much does The Rock weigh? Ok I guess I'll eat more..."

Using Casey Butt natural limit calculator, the most I could get at 12% bf is 199 lbs. I'll never get there because I don't eat enough.

I was happy to go from 140 to 175 though, made a huge difference.

The Calculator is pretty spot on.

It put me at 204 @5% and I was 206 @5% before I started cutting water for my show.

It put me at 227 @ 12% and I was 232 @ 12.5%

Most of the advice I'm seeing on here just don't get the true Ectomorph body type. My mom has it, I have it (not great for a guy wanting to put on muscle), and now my daughter has it (freakishly strong athlete who constantly has people accusing her of starving herself to stay thin, and I can guarantee she loves food and does nothing of the sort).

As you've found, it's possible to build muscle, get stronger...it's just so compact it doesn't show. Look for a coach (and search for info on) building muscle for ectomorphs, because it's a whole different ballgame than the standard advice.

That's a pretty debunked concept at this point.

Sure people have different frame ratios and some people are more prone to more efficient storage of energy, but all in all, if you eat to gain, you will gain.

Depending on the sport, endurance and explosiveness might be the primary driver in how well you can do. A bigger muscle will almost always be a stronger muscle though.

That's because there isn't really such thing. Track your food carefully, unless you're a serious outlier you're simply not eating as much as you think- same with your mom and daughter.

That's me. Pre gym I was 160lbs or so @ 6'2". After being in the gym religiously 5-6 times a week from 17-22yrs old I managed to put on 25lbs. For the next few years I was stuck there, going up or down a few pounds during that time. Weight gainers and eating high calorie food did nothing. I at least looked really good at 185lbs since I had such a small midsection (yay ecto!) but I never expected to get "big".

You're not wrong. It is different for Ectos, but it's not drastically different. Everybody claims Ectos can't gain weight because most people attribute weight gain to fat gain. Ectos can't get fat, maybe fluffy, but they can certainly gain quality weight. You have to eat quality food to do it. Garbage goes right through me. A week of playing video games while eating 5k+ calories per day of McDonalds quarter pounders, whole milk, pizza and weight gainer will see me shitting my brains out and losing weight. Eating 3.5k calories of steak, chicken, rice, potatoes, and avocados while busting my ass in the gym will cause me to gain weight.

Training isn't crazy. It's just high volume HIIT training. Pretty standard for bodybuilding, and that's what your looking to do. 5x5 of course doesn't cut it.

I've been as high as 230lbs, but that required 11 months of eating six meals a day in quantities that caused me to fight the urge to vomit after every meal. Few posts above it what I eat to to maintain 210ish with ease. If I increase my meat to 3lbs a day and add another 1lb a day to my potatoes I can be 220 within a few months, but it honestly feels a little taxing to my system to hold that weight for too long. I find I have to supplement ox-bile and probiotics to handle the extra food intake, and I just don't like taking supplements of any sort.

If you are not squatting and deadlifting, you are not strong.
And this is why you are skinny.
It is not genetics, or low T.
No disrespect.

I was skin and bones all my life.  My arms are still skinny at 58.   Was in the Navy, then worked on various boats in Alaska.   Hand stowing freighters with 80 to 120lb frozen crab boxes to filling the boat with 1.9 million pounds of frozen cod 80% hand stowed. Along with a couple of stents on Crab boats early in the day     Never gained a pound till I took a desk job.   Always weighed 195 to 210, now at 240 mostly gut weight, arms still skinny and I am 6'3".  

   

  All that said I was never week, nor I could bench 200lbs multiple times. But I could work round the clock if needed and no matter what get the job down and hold my own even installed heavy ass wood stoves.    Call it young man strong get it done, now it's old man strong get it done just a bit slower.

Those examples also included anabolic steroids. That's not just food. At least 2 of them,  haven't seen the other.  Its foolish to think that's food and supps.

Of course, but it holds true.

If you have to eat to gain, but aren't a hungry person, it's going to suck.

Working on boats in AK is a horrible way to try and gain weight. I did that for a few years and that was the skinniest I've ever been. There was no time to eat the 5,000+ calories that I was probably burning, no time to sleep either. A desk job, a squat rack and wife who knows how to cook is the way.

    Ha!  Yeah I never worked on boats to gain weight, no way that would happen.   My son is built just like I was. He always wanted to be that muscular kid n school and no way that was happening.     I told him you get what you get and be glad your not one of the so many fucking fat, frumpy multi colored haired kids that can't tie their shoes and talk like a girl.  

 Schools are fucking full of them, and it's hard to tell what is woman what is man!  Pretty sad!  

Endurance is not strength.

Lots of people can work hard all day but aren't terribly strong.

Food and training grows you, and for people with a naturally low appetite, it's easily the hardest part.

I can work out no problem, doesn't bother me a bit. Eating to gain sucks. It's not fun, or comfortable, and I hate it.

This is where Rippetoe gets it right. Skinny kids need to just lift and eat. Really eat, that's why GOMAD became a thing, it stack weight onto string bean teens.

I did GOMAD.  It just ran right through me.

It was awful.

What's the nutrition breakdown per day?

Yeah, its a last resort type of thing and people forget that. The whole goal of it is to train super skinny people how to get the calories into them, and drinking calories is usually a lot easier.

Half GOMAD is pushing it for me on the comfort side of things. I like about a quart a day.

But you are wrong. That’s magazine broscience BS.

I was always scrawny. As an adult male I have been 125 lbs @ 5’11”. I thought I was eating a lot. I thought I was working out wisely. I was wrong.

Once I followed a proper strength program focusing on the big compound movements, and eating more, I gained muscle. Some fat, sure, because I’m married and don’t care about abZ. But I got significantly stronger and more muscular. I added 90 lbs to my frame. My wrists (usually considered a stable metric in an adult) got bigger due to the heavy lifting. Previously I could wrap my forefinger and thumb around my wrist and have room to spare. I could even do it halfway up my forearm. Now I cannot touch at my wrist, much less my forearm.

And when I say “eating more” I meant that I treated eating like a job. It got to where I hated food. But my body required a significantly more calories than I was used to in order to add muscle. And I ate dirty. I imagine it’s even harder when trying to eat clean.

Body frame BS is an excuse to not put the work in.

What did you follow?

Starting Strength then MadCow

Any proven beginner LP program will work.

Do the deads, squats, chins, and dips. If those four were all you did, you could still get pretty big (although I recommend more than just those four).

Agree with others, do any LP like starting strength or stronglifts.

People shitting on body types are half right, I think. However, people have very different basal metabolic rates and appetite levels. I'm a large-ish guy (6'3", 245) and can gain on like 3300-3500 calories a day when I bulk. A dude with a fast metabolism would need 4000-5000 a day.

To bulk, I eat until I'm satisfied, and to cut I end up hungry. A guy who naturally burns more calories will have to force himself to eat.

I have changed up quite a bit in the past few weeks, the T test coming back normal and with help here changed my view on things.

I have been hitting the gym 1 to 2 hrs a day, 4 to 5 days a week. My protein is 150 to 175 each day.

Starting right after Easter, I'll be increasing my intake by quite a bit. I do have some questions, but I'll ask them another time.

Sounds like a good start, keep it up and it will work out

Some follow up questions... I thought of making a separate thread, but I'll stick with this one for now.


Diet

I am in the full swing of things. MY protein amount is around 200 a day, my calorie intake is roughly 3000 to 3200. I have a few recipes I want to incorporate to make my life a bit easier, mainly steak. Canned chicken at 52 GR of protein is a God send.

Took a bit to incorporate the meals / food into the 'My Fitness App', but its working. Not sure the premium jump is worth it right now, I'll see if I really need the features down the line.

In February, I was roughly 195 to 200 lbs, now I am between 208 and 210.

Exercise

This is where I am running into some hiccups.

As I mentioned a few posts before, my workouts have blown up. I only use machines for a few workouts, and the bulk of what I do is free weights or body exercises (pull ups, dips). I have been working out 5 days a week, 1.5 hrs to 2 hrs a day.

The questions are in the details;

I picked up some information from this article posted before; https://www.t-nation.com/training/how-tall-guys-get-jacked

After each workout, my particular muscle target is on fire... then it goes away, and sore a day later.

Question I have is, how hard should I be pushing? To exhaustion? Aim for certain reps, at a certain amount of sets and weight? For example, my arm workout to start is;

Preacher Curl;  

Start at 90 lbs ,  4 reps. This is the max I can do at this weight for 4 reps.

Drop 10 lbs, 4 to 6 reps, for at least 2 to 3 sets (I am generally exhausted by then)

Drop another 10 lbs, 4 to 8 reps, at least 2 to 3 sets. (Arms on fire)

Then standing alternating dumbbell curls. The weight IIRC is 40 lbs to start, and I follow the same method as above. I generally stop at 30 lbs (I drop by 5, not 10 for dumbbells)

Then off to dead lift... where I am 190lbs for dead lift, for 4 to 6 reps with 30 seconds to 1 minute in between for rest.

To finish up last, I take @thor 's workout and do 'waiter curls' at 25 or 30 lbs to exhaustion.

By now, my arms are burning... but I still have pull downs, pullups, dumbell lateral raise and seated row exercise.

Other than my usual core workouts (3 separate exercises), I am about 1.5 to 2 hrs at this point.

My body is tired, my mind is tired, I have to fight myself through some of these sets to keep going.

So, the question is, how much is too much, or not enough?

I didn't see anyone else talking about this which is a bit of a surprise. The same mass in muscle can vary in size. If you want to build mass AND size of the muscle, stretch.
While your muscles are healing from a work out, stretch them good again. The reason it hurts so bad is because it tears the muscle fibers open again and allows more protein to fill the gaps. Do it 2 hours after the workout and again 6-8 hours after the workout. Then one more time 2 days after. Spend a good 5-8 minutes stretching the muscle group you focused on in your workout. This also helps your body use the food you eat more effectively and you'll find that you need to eat more.

Stretching also expands the muscle fascia which gives the muscle more room to grow. The fascia is the sac that holds the muscle. If you don't stretch it out the muscle will just stay conformed to the size of the sac.

I knew I kid back in high school who was always very skinny but started working out this way after some advice from a trainer. Two years latter he was much bigger than I was although I'd say we were still about the same strength.

According to your last post, your routine looks terrible and you're doing way too much.  What are your goals really?  Seems like you're trying to get big in one day.

That is too much?

That doesn't seem like a lot.

Sounds like you are just doing a list of exercises, not a program.

A program will tell you exactly how and when to progress, and what to do when you stop progressing.

From the sounds of it, it's 2 hours of fluff work.

You should be able to get a really good workout done in about an hour. 12-20 total working sets, with some accessory stuff or conditioning tacked on at the end if you want.

Looking into Starting Strength, Ivysaur 448, Allpro's, or any of the programs on this list.

https://thefitness.wiki/routines/strength-training-muscle-building/

Give it a fair shake and just pick to one to stick with for 12 weeks. Don't alter it or add extra to it, just do what it says, and you'll likely see some decent progress.

For what it's worth, I'm not a strong guy, but was happy with the quick progress on a basic routine. At 160 lbs I ran my deadlift up to 315 and my squat to 260 for 5 reps. So not strong, but it was cool to have that kind of progress so fast. If I actually moved on and stuck with something like 5/3/1 for a year I probably could have run it up way higher.

Being both lazy, and usually hurt now my current routine is Squats, Overhead Press, Chinups, and some sort of arm isolation. Then conditioning when I feel like it.

Goals are to look pretty okay naked, and stay mobile enough for staying safe at work. Deadlifting and rowing during work season is just too much on my lower back, I do them in the winter for a few months usually just to stay moving.

Op, you're doing things completely wrong!

You should list all your routines which I assume differ from the one you listed above (hopefully).

You need to start with the major lifts / body parts and then do accessory lifts at the end of the workout.
Doing deadlifts after doing biceps is just asking for a bicep tear since it's already in a flexed / contracted state and the deadlift is naturally forcing it to lengthen.

For biceps, you need to start with a lower weight and do more reps. Decrease the weight on the next set as you increase the weight. Pyramid the weight and reps. 4 reps will build strength, but very little mass (see thor's post on reps - a natural guy won't do that many reps, but you see the point.) Aim for 15 reps to start and decrease as the weight increases. Chase the pump. I wouldn't pick a weight I can do less than 6 reps with (as a max) if your goal is to gain size.

For small muscles like biceps and tris, you don't need to do that many sets either. It's about quality not quantity. Plus, they have already been worked doing the major lifts. Are you incorporating the push / pull concept into your workouts?

https://liftvault.com/programs/strength/ivysaur-spreadsheet/

Would this work then?

I have always done heavy weight at lower reps first, then reduced weight as I increased the sets. Is this not correct?  

Is there a program that follows what you are saying?

Yes, it's a program based off Daily Undulating Periodization. Instead of grinding away at one rep range for weeks it alternates them to keep you fresher.

On paper it doesn't look like much, but once you get near  4 and 8 rep maxes for your working weights, 16 sets will feel like plenty.

Nm. I'm retarded.

Is there a program that follows that routine?

Ivysaur, the one you asked about.

Seriously man, just pick a beginner program with basic progression and follow it for a few months.

It sucks, we all have program ADD, but your body needs time for programming to actually it's thing. I'm a habitual program hopper too, and all it does is give you a reason to take a deload and make yourself feel better, which doesn't lead to gains.

Paralysis by analysis is bad enough without the internet.....now it's worse for guys that lift.

Don't worry about adding stuff for your arms, or your calves, or your abs for 12 weeks, and just follow the program you pick without altering it or missing too many workouts.

Ah, ok.

You quoted my other post, not the link, got a bit confused.

Fixed it.

I found a spreadsheet for the program. Going to plug numbers in and start tomorrow.   I like this program because it hits biceps more than the 5x5 and other programs.

https://www.drworkout.fitness/ivysaur-4-4-8-program/

You can add chinups to both SL and SS. I think they have you put them in on Friday.

If you actually read the starting strength book it addresses a lot of the things people complain about with it.