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Quoted: After glancing at the papers I'm not surprised Sig did this. The academy banning Sigs effectively preventing police departments from issuing Sigs since new officers couldn't go through the academy and present officers can't get training. If sounds like three police agencies were forced to buy new guns. Sig really should have been prepared with a duty sized 365 they could trade or sell at a discount for existing 320s. "We're not admitting anything but " I love my Fuse. |
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Quoted: I wouldn't mind having one of the original military trials M17, even if I never shot it. Late war Nambu pistols were nicknamed suicide specials because you could make it fire by pressing the exposed sear. Doesn't make them less collectable. Exactly. I have a M17 & M18, but they just sit in the collection. |
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Quoted: Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things Quoted: Quoted: I really do want to understand how this could ever be given standing in a court. I can potentially understand the statements portion (though likely true statements so still ill advised). I don't get how they feel they can sue a state police academy over their refusal to allow their guns. Am I missing something contract related? Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things |
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Quoted: That one is stupid. It's not a gun ban in that people are denied their right to keep and bear arms. It's like them saying you can't use a Ford Pinto as the target car for PITT training.. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really do want to understand how this could ever be given standing in a court. I can potentially understand the statements portion (though likely true statements so still ill advised). I don't get how they feel they can sue a state police academy over their refusal to allow their guns. Am I missing something contract related? Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things To the academy, the gun is simply a tool to do a given job that needs to be done safely. I don't see this any differently than say a welding school not allowing a certain brand of welding helmet based on reports that the auto-darkening feature doesn't work properly. You can bring any helmet you want except Brand X helmets while at the welding school. All the academy jas to say is that they can provide for attendees alternate handguns that approximate manual of arms for the P320 and nobody will get denied the use of the facilities. |
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The lawsuit was just bad timing for SIG, because the airman was killed not too long after the lawsuit was filed. If the death hadn't occur to a US military soldier then the lawsuit would have likely stayed a local news story and quickly forgot. The lawsuit justifications look like they're grasping at straws. Almost like someone double dog dared SIG lawyers, so they decided to go for it. |
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Quoted: The lawsuit was just bad timing for SIG, because the airman was killed not too long after the lawsuit was filed. If the death hadn't occur to a US military soldier then the lawsuit would have likely stayed a local news story and quickly forgot. The lawsuit justifications look like they're grasping at straws. Almost like someone double dog dared SIG lawyers, so they decided to go for it. Sig has no choice but to be overtly aggressive now. |
She has video of a holstered P320 going off on their training range with one of her instructor standing right next to it.|
Quoted: Sig has no choice but to be overtly aggressive now. My thought. Enough ADs have happened now, and on video, that they recognize their market share is fucked once all agencies start dropping their line for the competition (that don’t just go off). They’re just trying to cut it off before it gets going. I get that but hope it blows up in their face. Bold strategy suing to force people to use their product though… |
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Quoted: My thought. Enough ADs have happened now, and on video, that they recognize their market share is fucked once all agencies start dropping their line for the competition (that don’t just go off). They’re just trying to cut it off before it gets going. I get that but hope it blows up in their face. Bold strategy suing to force people to use their product though… Fuck Sig at this point. They are going down the same road that the SawStop guy did. They are trying to force their product use through legal means, which is commie bullshit. *For those that don't know, the Sawstop guy invented cool tech that saves fingers on a table saw. He initially tried to get Delta, Powermatic and others to put it on their existing saws and they declined. He then went to congress to try to mandate it on all saws as a safety feature. When that failed, he went off and built his own cabinet saw. From all accounts it is a good saw and it is innovative technology for sure. I will never have one because the owner is a complete dickhead. Sig seems to be playing from a similar book. |
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Quoted: That one is stupid. It's not a gun ban in that people are denied their right to keep and bear arms. It's like them saying you can't use a Ford Pinto as the target car for PITT training.. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really do want to understand how this could ever be given standing in a court. I can potentially understand the statements portion (though likely true statements so still ill advised). I don't get how they feel they can sue a state police academy over their refusal to allow their guns. Am I missing something contract related? Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things Yeah, citing a state’s preemption law in this scenario screams “throwing everything against a wall to see what sticks”. |
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Edsel wasn't a product error it was a marketing error. |
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Quoted: That one is stupid. It's not a gun ban in that people are denied their right to keep and bear arms. It's like them saying you can't use a Ford Pinto as the target car for PITT training.. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really do want to understand how this could ever be given standing in a court. I can potentially understand the statements portion (though likely true statements so still ill advised). I don't get how they feel they can sue a state police academy over their refusal to allow their guns. Am I missing something contract related? Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things I wonder how much money Sig has spent lobbying the Washington State legislature to rescind the draconian gun laws placed on it's citizens. |
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Quoted: Yep. Discovery is gonna be a bitch.  Quoted: Quoted: I don’t know if they really want to be going through the discovery process in a lawsuit over the 320. There’s enough funny business with it and they’d be better served not bringing extra spotlight onto the issue. Yep. Discovery is gonna be a bitch. Wasn't Q the company that scooped up half of Sig's internal engineers that know all the dirt on the 320? Edit: When you have a video game streamer (Charlie / penguinz0) making videos on it... your cooked...  This Gun Has A Huge Problem |
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I want there to be an investigation and follow the money trail for the M17/18 contract. As far as trials go it was the shortest trial period of any large scale arms implementation EVER for the DOD at right at 4 months. And ALOT of the field reviews were shit. It made 0 sense to not stay with an updated beretta. |
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Quoted: Did they hire Hitler as a CEO? Will there be a Downfall video? No, they hired a German convicted criminal who ruined Kimber. Whoever hired FRC is a dipshit. Kimber was a great company, great people, with a great product, then fuckhead took over. SIG USA hired a literal convicted criminal (in Germany) to boot. |
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Quoted: Wow. Sig is explosively shitting the bed on this one. Rather than own up to anything they're just suing and banning (Ben Stoeger) anyone who talks ill of their gun? that's not a good look.  At this point the liability exposure of admitting there is an issue is massive, they’ll never own up to it. That said I feel the smart play for them is roll out a duty sized p365 under the guise of platform popularity, and quietly phase out the 320 due to declining sales. |
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Police academies ban all sorts of guns and holsters. I don't know why sig thinks they are so special. If a court rules against sig it will set a precedence that many other agencies will use against sig. If sig just left it alone it wouldn't get nearly the negative publicity. My guess is that sigs attorney is pushing for this as they are the ones who stand to profit the most from this suit . Follow the money. |
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Quoted: I wonder how much money Sig has spent lobbying the Washington State legislature to rescind the draconian gun laws placed on it's citizens. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I really do want to understand how this could ever be given standing in a court. I can potentially understand the statements portion (though likely true statements so still ill advised). I don't get how they feel they can sue a state police academy over their refusal to allow their guns. Am I missing something contract related? Sig claims the academy violated the state administrative procedure act by banning the guns and not allowing Sig a chance to contest the act, Sig also alleges that since Washington State has state pre emption for gun laws the academy doesn't have authority to ban Sig pistols from the academy or their training classes-among other things I wonder how much money Sig has spent lobbying the Washington State legislature to rescind the draconian gun laws placed on it's citizens. None, so fuck them. Once on a while the powers that be in this shithole of a state actually do a good thing. Banning this abortion from the academy is good. Sig is being pretty pathetic with this lawsuit. |
| The government will back the government on this one. They are banning Sigs, just an Sig model that has documented problems. They have an obligation to the safety of their trainees. Any piece of equipment that is in question can go. Not unlike the Serpa holster. This lawsuit is not unlike the panicked, flailing arms of a person drowning. |
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Quoted: What a bunch of morons. By the time they get done with this, sig 320s are going to be less expensive than hi points. Personally, I’ll never own an sig striker fired pistol. There simply too many competitive, safe products to even risk dealing with something like that. It's not like Glock and S&W don't already have market penetration. |
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Quoted: I don’t know if they really want to be going through the discovery process in a lawsuit over the 320. There’s enough funny business with it and they’d be better served not bringing extra spotlight onto the issue. If I were in the C-suite at Sig it's exactly what I'd be doing. You do realize Sig has fought and won a dozen or so of the court battles to date, with several of the plaintiff's experts finally conceding in court that the gun will not fire without the trigger being depressed, right? What, exactly, is discovery risking? The actions they lost didn't prove wrong-doing, only that Sig might/should have designed a safer production. There is still no published report from GSC or the AFOSI, now eight days after the accident. |
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In my opinion Sig's response to P320 accusations is worse then if the P320 is actually flawed like people say it is. I have a P365 and like it but I'll never buy another Sig. I don't actually care if the P320 is discharging and shooting people. Sig denying any liability is bad but I get it. Businesses frequently deny and litigate individual cases VS admitting a mistake and recalling. Its a business decision based on numbers. Unethical of course but complete business. But Sig trying to actively suppress anyone that airs on the side of caution & safety, and sue them into silence? lol. Fuck that company. Even if your product is not flawed and these reports we have/videos we've seen of P320s 'going off' in the holster isn't real. Its an unforgivable response. |
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Quoted: If I were in the C-suite at Sig it's exactly what I'd be doing. You do realize Sig has fought and won a dozen or so of the court battles to date, with several of the plaintiff's experts finally conceding in court that the gun will not fire without the trigger being depressed, right? What, exactly, is discovery risking? The actions they lost didn't prove wrong-doing, only that Sig might/should have designed a safer production. There is still no published report from GSC or the AFOSI, now eight days after the accident. I have not really read anything on any of these court cases so I really dont know what is accurate. I've seen claims that Sig has won some as well as had to pay out... I think this is one of those things where even if they were in the right, (which I am skeptical of) there response has pretty much trashed their reputation domestically. End users have guns with no market value. Dealers are stuck with thousands upon thousands of dollars of inventory that is not going to move. Ranges/trainers are getting sued for pulling them off their ranges. LE agencies are going to have to redo procurements and go back to the tax payer to fun new pistols. Taking to social media and labeling any criticism of the 320 as an anti 2nd amendment plot and getting obliterated in the comments section Guntubers getting crucified as paid shills by social media. I know my buddy who bought my M18, has sworn off them as a brand, now has a spare slide and module that are collecting dust. |