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New video uploaded today showing gun firing by rocking slide;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk

I just tried his testing protocol on my 320 and I could not get it to fire. Mine was purchased about a year and an half ago (I think his gun is a few years older or more (he mentioned when he bought his in another video).

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A 1:1 P320 for P226 exchange would actually be pretty excellent

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I owned 4 German/W German Sigs, the last Sig I bought was a 100% USA P226 and the quality was noticeably worse than the German guns, So much that it turned me off from all American Sig guns and that was around 20 years ago, I can only imagine the quality now.

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I remember videos from years ago, where people were warning that just the slightest pressure or the smallest amount of debris can disable all the safeties of the P320, nobody bothered to check to see if moving the slide would cause the striker to fire because it seemed like such an absurd thing I guess.

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I owned 4 German/W German Sigs, the last Sig I bought was a 100% USA P226 and the quality was noticeably worse than the German guns, So much that it turned me off from all American Sig guns and that was around 20 years ago, I can only imagine the quality now.

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bullshit.

A holstered firearm is still a firearm and all rules apply.  I don't treat a holstered firearm any differently than one that isn't.

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I had a slight interest in getting a 226 and/or 220 given their historical provenance but it seems like unless you buy used, the modern production ones are the only game.  The ones I’ve handled in the last five years seem to have either been limited super special editions with obscene prices or the fit/finish is noticeably poor and not worth the premium price they are carrying.

Knowing that a new 226 would be chock full of the same Indian parts and quality control is a buzz kill.  The only thing you could say is you could probably rebuild one into a decent gun after hundreds of dollars in parts.

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Except what Jambalaya is saying is correct.

A refund program with retail prices isn’t happening. It’s not viable.

The choices might include a repair or a replacement with something else cheap and striker fired, but that’s about it.

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Some awesome ideas:

Sell cheap/give away all M17/18s to the Ukraine. Look world, we’re helping!

@Glock: Make a model 17/19 that takes M17 mags and offer the US DOD and/or reoffer the 19X as another option.

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Who the fuck wears a shoulder holster?

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Anyone have the pics from an older 320 thread showing the oem trigger width vs the guard width?  Thanks

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Who the fuck wears a shoulder holster?

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2 things can be true at the same time.

Some people can walk and chew gum both at the same time, I know it's rough concept.

It can be true that the 320 is a shit gun that goes off by itself, and it can also shockingly be true that one should also follow gun safety rules and so doing might save their life.  

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TWZ has a pretty good article on the current situation with air crews etc.

Nothing ground breaking but I enjoyed the pics.

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Every US military installation in the world is reading about this now, not just those who follow gun news.  Commands at all levels are talking about it now as their subordinates who have to carry an M17/M18 are asking if it’s safe.  With as many risk adverse leaders we have in the .mil nowadays, we may actually see some increased traction on this, only time will tell…

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/207596/IMG_0259_jpeg-3594357.JPG

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Who the fuck wears a shoulder holster?

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This video is not shocking to me.  Pull the trigger to the wall screw in a screw to hold the trigger at the wall and manipulate the slide until the striker drops.  The 320 is a fairly light trigger with a short trigger pull.  You pull the trigger to the wall it is not going to take much to fire the weapon.  

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This video is not shocking to me.  Pull the trigger to the wall screw in a screw to hold the trigger at the wall and manipulate the slide until the striker drops.  The 320 is a fairly light trigger with a short trigger pull.  You pull the trigger to the wall it is not going to take much to fire the weapon.  

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjEhgXAALL8

Ian posted a pretty level headed take today.  16ish minutes.

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Cheyenne is our hometown, and we still subscribe to the Wyoming Tribune Eagle newspaper there.  Here's an article that talks about the death of the airman.  Cheyenne Frontier Days is going on this week, and what should be an enjoyable time has been tempered by this tragedy.  One thing the article mentions that I had forgotten about is that the Wyoming Highway Patrol ditched the P320 a couple years ago due to an AD/ND/Uncommanded discharge of some kind.

https://www.wyomingnews.com/news/local_news/air-force-pauses-use-of-m18-pistol-after-death-of-21-year-old-airman-at/article_c0389562-a406-466e-a854-157a9bb7c7ed.html

CHEYENNE – The death of a U.S. Air Force service member at F.E. Warren Air Force Base this week has led to limited use of a military-issued handgun at several facilities while officials investigate how the weapon discharged.

Airman Brayden Lovan, a 21-year-old defender assigned to the 90th Security Forces Squadron, 90th Security Forces Group, died Sunday in relation to a firearm discharge, according to a Thursday news release. F.E. Warren was his first assignment.

“Our hearts are heavy with the loss of Airman Lovan,” said Col. Jeremy Sheppard, 90th Security Forces Group commander, in the release. “We mourn the loss of a valued defender, teammate and friend. Our focus remains on supporting the family and team during this incredibly difficult time. In moments like these, we are reminded of the strength of our military community and the community we live in, coming together to grieve, honor and care for one another.”

Accidental discharge
The incident involved a Sig Sauer M18, a military-grade version of the controversial Sig Sauer P320, a popular civilian pistol that law enforcement agencies and gun enthusiasts carry nationwide.

The gun is made by New Hampshire-based manufacturer Sig Sauer, which is defending itself against multiple lawsuits alleging that the P320 pistol can go off without the trigger being pulled.

The company has denies the claims, saying the weapon is safe, and has prevailed in some cases.

Security Forces Combat Arms airmen at all AFGSC bases will conduct 100% inspections of the M18 handguns to identify any immediate safety concerns, according to the news release. At this time, no determination has been made regarding the nature of the discharge, the release said.

The incident is currently under investigation by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) and appropriate base authorities, according to a statement from the base. The Air Force is not releasing additional information at this time, citing the ongoing investigation.

In response to the incident, Air Force Global Strike Command (AFGSC) issued a “stand down,” pausing use of the pistol until all bases within the command’s jurisdiction can conduct full inspections of the M18s in their inventories and identify any immediate safety concerns.

Sig Sauer posted its condolences on Facebook on Wednesday.

“Our hearts are with the service members and families impacted by the recent reported event at the F.E. Warren Air Force Base,” the post reads. “We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident and remain willing to help in furtherance of their ongoing inquiry. We have absolute confidence in the military's ability to conduct a thorough investigation and are working with the Air Force and Army to answer any of their questions.”


The company has denied there are any safety issues with these guns in the past, but has not yet commented on the safety of the M18 in relation to this incident.

The P320 was adopted by the U.S. military as M17 and M18 pistols, and the M18 is now the official sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, according to reporting by the Associated Press. In 2019, Sig Sauer announced it had delivered its 100,000th M17 and M18s to the U.S. military.

Currently, the stand-down is limited to this one Air Force command, but Army, Navy and Marine Corps officials said they are also reviewing the incident, according to reporting from The Washington Post.

Lawsuits
Though Sig Sauer has denied there are any safety issues with these weapons in the past, more than 100 plaintiffs across the country have filed suits claiming otherwise.

A 2023 investigation by The Washington Post and The Trace found more than 100 people who reported the gun discharged without anyone pulling the trigger.

Until New Hampshire state lawmakers granted the company legal protection for product liability, Sig Sauer was facing at least 77 lawsuits over alleged misfires.

Philadelphia-based attorney Robert Zimmerman, of Saltz Mongeluzzi Bendesky, represents hundreds of injured Sig Sauer gun owners nationwide. Zimmerman filed several of the lawsuits in New Hampshire because the company is one of the state's major employers.

Zimmerman's clients include law enforcement officers and federal agents who have little to no say in what type of firearms they carry.

“(This) appears to be another preventable tragedy linked to a dangerously defective, poorly designed Sig Sauer P320 variant that puts its users in grave danger,” Zimmerman said in a statement regarding the incident at F.E. Warren.  

The firm has recently been asked to represent law enforcement departments planning to discontinue use of the Sig Sauer P320, according to the news release.

Those departments face significant, unbudgeted costs because of their decision to no longer use what has been found by two separate juries to be a defectively designed pistol, according to Zimmerman.

Sig Sauer allegedly predicted, in internal studies, that death from an unintended discharge of this gun could happen, according to Zimmerman.

“Yet (they) promised users, including those who serve and protect our nation, that the gun will not fire unless the user wants it to,” Zimmerman said. “Our more than 100 clients did not want their P320s to unintentionally discharge and injure them.”

The company has previously responded to these lawsuits, saying that “lawsuits claiming that the P320 is capable of firing without the trigger being pulled have been dismissed in courtrooms around the country.”

Sig Sauer offered a “voluntary upgrade” in 2017 to reduce the weight of the trigger, among other features, according to the Associated Press. Lawyers for the plaintiffs in these cases say the upgrade did not stop unintentional discharges.

As a result of the company's newfound legal support in New Hampshire, Zimmerman said the firm has begun filing additional cases in other states.

According to Zimmerman, design choices made by the company have made the gun more prone to accidental discharge without the handler making contact with the trigger.

“Some of the changes that we are asking Sig Sauer to do are changes that other gun manufacturers have been doing for years,” Zimmerman said. “So we have continued to request that Sig (Sauer) recall this weapon and redesign it so that it is not injuring the people who are relying on it most for their safety.”

Several large multi-plaintiff cases have been filed in New Hampshire’s federal court accuse Sig Sauer of negligence and defective product design and marketing, according to the Associated Press.

Zimmerman says the P320 design requires an external mechanical safety, but the feature is optional.

The most recent New Hampshire case, representing 22 plaintiffs in 16 states, was filed in March, according to the Associated Press.

Sig Sauer’s motions to dismiss the lawsuit or break it up and transfer it to districts where the plaintiffs live was heard Monday.

The state's two-month-old law that prohibits product liability claims against Sig Sauer and other gun makers based on the “absence or presence” of the external safety and several other optional features has not been incorporated into the case, according to the Associated Press.

Claims can still be filed over manufacturing defects.

Not the first
Though none of Zimmerman’s current clients are based in Wyoming, state law enforcement has had its own mishaps with Sig Sauer pistols.

A new report from Mother Jones and The Trace found the Wyoming Highway Patrol was one of nearly a dozen law enforcement departments across the country to stop issuing SIG Sauer P320 pistols.

According to a Wyoming Highway Patrol news release from April, the patrol stopped issuing Sig Sauer P320 pistols to troopers within the past few years following an accidental discharge incident, though no one was injured. The release didn't contain the date of this incident.

According to the Highway Patrol news release, the decision to replace the Sig Sauer was primarily due to operational and safety considerations.

“Our agency's Professional Standards Section conducted a thorough review and determined a change in equipment was in the best interest of officer safety and the safety of those they serve and interact with,” the news release reads.  

The agency now utilizes the Glock 45 as the standard-issue sidearm for its sworn personnel. The remaining Sig Sauer P320s were “traded in” through a firearms distributor.

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Who the fuck wears a shoulder holster?

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Because it's theoretically possible that all the incidents so far have involved something pulling the trigger. Foreign objects pulling the trigger in the holster is something that happens even with safe guns. Shirt tails/keys/glove tabs/insert other object here can be very difficult to see on video, so it's somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible to conclusively prove that any given incident didn't involve a foreign object in the trigger guard. We can look at videos and say 'I don't see how that could be a foreign object', but that's only demonstrating a failure of imagination. And again, I believe P320s have a problem causing them to fire without a trigger pull.

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Friggin Stars and Stripes.  Capitalize "Airman".  Capital A.  Idiots.  It's always capitalized.

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Yeah, a Glock will do it if you get the trigger pulled just the right amount. It's tricky to balance at that point with your finger, but fairly easy with a clamp.

https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo

Any striker fired pistol with a vertically falling sear is going to have a point where pulling the trigger has defeated the striker block and lowered the sear until the remaining engagement is less than the vertical slop of the slide. The PDP won't because it uses a horizontal sear setup; not sure about the others.

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With the trigger pulled that far back on a Glock, is the striker loaded enough to set the primer off if it does slip?

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My friends dopey dog knocked my p99 out of my hands when I was pulling stuff out of my van.  

I watched like it was in slow motion as my loaded and chambered p99 sailed out of my hand and onto the concrete driveway. I expected to hear a bang.. but nothing happened.  

To see the 320's going off with a knock, wiggle and nudge is terrifying.

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The manual safety has nothing to do with the 320 issues.

Edit:

P226 was always my “dream” gun but I couldn’t afford it in my 20s and now I’ve held off in my 30s due to all these Sig issues. I just have no desire to give them money. I already have a WW1 Colt 1911 .45acp so no real interest in another 1911 either. Maybe I’ll just grab a CZ 75 when I finally decide to splurge on a hammer fire full size.