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Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:37:12 PM EDT
A sad case.

I have let people go back into the house to get a shirt or jacket when it was cold. But I always went with them and turned on the lights and let anyone else in the house know what was up.

As far as when to serve warrants, you serve them when you can find the guy. They are usually home sleeping in the middle of the night. That's a good time to serve them.

Junior should have showed up for court.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:37:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I'm curious. If the weapon is only held at the side and never pointed at anyone does that give justification for lethal force as an officer. I mean if I answered a 1:00am pound at the door with pistol in hand could they just shoot me dead for that? I know heat of the moment changes perceptions so maybe it's reasonable in this story but not in the analogy. As a monday morning quarterback, I'd be a little questioning of knowing a person had a pistol and knowing it was not pointed at anyone but shooting anyway.



Yes, they can shoot you and no charges filed. Gun in the hand is a free shoot ticket. Its been that way my entire life. Its why I always leave my pants by the bed and slap them on then put my gun in the waist.

The real crime here is the policy of serving warrants on misdemenors in the middle of the night. This set this inevitiable scenario in place.

This is tragic for everyone involved.

Tj



True to a degree except the kid committing the crime started the ball rolling. The rest was tragic side effects.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:38:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:
All that for a

misdemeanor bench warrant
.




No shit.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:38:08 PM EDT
Thanks for the good replies folks, I'm trying to ignore the trolls. This was not a no knock warrant. They had junior and then the trio went inside.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:38:48 PM EDT
Warrant service. Anytime, anywhere you can find the suspect.

All these Monday morning quarterbacks...

Again, a very unfortunate situation.

Rest in peace sir.


Jynx
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:38:49 PM EDT
What kind of society have we become to go into some ones home at night for a misdemeanor DUI? This may be policy with this department but as I used to write Federal Policy I can tell you - Policy is not LAW. A big town payoff is in the future but nothing will bring this guy back. What a mess.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:38:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Making those types of arrests can happen at anytime or day. The best time to find them is late at night, early morning or on Sundays.




It's the late at night thing I have a problem with. Early in the morning or on Sundays, fine, but you're just asking for this sort of thing to happen late at night.



You go when the person is most likely to be home.



Correct. And most everybody's home between 11:30 and daybreak. One local detective unit has a long-established policy of serving arrest warrants between 3 and 6 AM. (Middle of the night as far as I'm concerned, unless I'm going fishing.) Guess what? They have very few misses, and very few fights of any kind - and it is a section dealing with VERY violent crimes.


And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.


+1. MM warrant execution is often preceding by a letter TELLING the subject there's a warrant outstanding, and giving him "office hours," directions, and a phone number for turning himself in.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:39:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jchewie:
Thanks for the good replies folks, I'm trying to ignore the trolls. This was not a no knock warrant. They had junior and then the trio went inside.



Is there really a difference if the guy sleeping in the bed has no idea you're coming in with guns?
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:40:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
One step closer to bounties on badged bandits.



Eat shit.



+1. I think my anti-JBT bona fides are a matter of record, but for Pete's sake, this was Andy Griffith letting Otis get his shoes, not BATFE at Waco. Of course, one shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good evening of barking at the moon. And eating shit.



The sad thing is, this is EXACTLY the sort of officer the usual bashers call for. They ALL want "Mayberry style". Well, there are two "Andy's" right here.

As for the dipshits, put aside your keyboard and drag your butt down here.

Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:41:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Making those types of arrests can happen at anytime or day. The best time to find them is late at night, early morning or on Sundays.




It's the late at night thing I have a problem with. Early in the morning or on Sundays, fine, but you're just asking for this sort of thing to happen late at night.



Why? whats wrong with serving an arrest warrant in the middle ofthe night? They knocked on the door and when the subject came to the door they informed him of the warrant and arrested him. The problem was not in the time of day, but rather that they let him back inot the house. Someone simply turning on a light in the house would have prevented this.

But where does it say that a person can't be arrested on a warrant after sunset?



The clock ticks 24 hours a day. If it's a 24 hour a day agency, they nab the BG's when they can. Further, if they have devoloped a policy on the matter, then where's the problem. It is a legitimate technique.

They don't say, "We grab folks at night, because we like to pretend we're the boogeyman, plus we love our surefires!" The cite specific officer safety issues. Remember officer safety is community safety as well, as we all know rounds don't stop even with the BG's. Less conflict is better. I'm only speaking to this specific practice, and not others at this time.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:41:25 PM EDT
I may get bashed by cops for saying this. OK... I may get bashed by anyone for saying this.


I truely think the cops were at the wrong here. They were on someone else's property, shining a light into someone's face (limiting the person's sight to just the light), they barely gave any warning (if any), then they shot the guy.

If the teen was between the Vet and the cops then that is probally why the cops got the first shot. If the Vet saw the teen he would have held his fire because he did not want to injure his child.
In other words I believe the cops executed the vet.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:41:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:42:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:

Originally Posted By gunman0:
I don't understand. How does a misdemeanor bench warrant justify a no-knock midnight raid?



Did you even read the article?

They arrested Junior outside and followed him inside to get his shoes.



I read the article, just missed that single sentence in the middle somehow.

But, now I have another question. Was junior just outside haning out on his front lawn without shoes at 11:30 PM? You would think that a reporter would list a timeline of events for an objective conclusion. Oh wait, I'm forgot.... Reporters don't want objective stories.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:42:52 PM EDT
Sad for everyone involved.

NorCal
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:


The real crime here is the policy of serving warrants on misdemenors in the middle of the night. This set this inevitiable scenario in place.


Tj



Yup, theoretically you are supposed show specifically that you need to serve a warrant at night. Around here every single warrant application has "Joe Blow is the most dangerous SOB since Dillinger and he may have crack/pot/herione/meth/stolen merchandise/weapons/ bad breath so a warrant that can be executed at night should be issued"

They could've nabbed Koresh when he came into town...



ATF wanted headlines, and yes they should have busted him when he went for his daily run.

And you go when the people are home. That can be at any hour of the day but again your best time to catch them is late evenning.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:43:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ryann:
I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them?
What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated?
Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable.
This sounds just like one of those incidents.



Ryann,

I disagree with you strongly on the, "why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers?" comment. Ever wake up late at night to a flashlight shining in your face? It takes a few seconds for one's eyes to adjust. I think you're making excuses where they aren't needed.

The officers made an error of judgement in how they handled the whole, "I want my shoes," thing.

The shooting was a result of that bad judgement. It wasn't the man's fault that he didn't know that police officers where in his house. It wasn't his fault that he didn't obey their instructions right away (why would he? Because some stranger in his house yells, "Drop it now!"? That stranger could be anyone). It wasn't the victim's fault that he couldn't see the officers when they had their flashlights on him.

Once they were in the situation, I can somewhat understand why the shooting happened. My thought is that the situation should never have happened in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:44:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:46:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By ryann:
I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them?
What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated?
Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable.
This sounds just like one of those incidents.



Ryann,

I disagree with you strongly on the, "why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers?" comment. Ever wake up late at night to a flashlight shining in your face? It takes a few seconds for one's eyes to adjust. I think you're making excuses where they aren't needed.

The officers made an error of judgement in how they handled the whole, "I want my shoes," thing.

The shooting was a result of that bad judgement. It wasn't the man's fault that he didn't know that police officers where in his house. It wasn't his fault that he didn't obey their instructions right away (why would he? Because some stranger in his house yells, "Drop it now!"? That stranger could be anyone). It wasn't the victim's fault that he couldn't see the officers when they had their flashlights on him.

Once they were in the situation, I can somewhat understand why the shooting happened. My thought is that the situation should never have happened in the first place.




It's a situation that sounds a lot like a home invasion. We all have to decide how to handle a bunch of strangers showing up with flashlights and guns in the middle of the night. Could be invaders, could be cops.
As long as the cops use the same tactics as home invaders we will be stuck with the uncertainly and we will be in a catch 22.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:47:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.


+1. MM warrant execution is often preceding by a letter TELLING the subject there's a warrant outstanding, and giving him "office hours," directions, and a phone number for turning himself in.



I don't think criminals are really concerned about keeping their addresses updated with the police and making sure their mom and dad know about any warrants if they get a letter from the police.....




C'mon now. What address to 9 out of 10 dirtbags give the cops? What's the only address 8 out of 10 actually know by heart?
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:48:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmedAggie:

Originally Posted By jchewie:
Thanks for the good replies folks, I'm trying to ignore the trolls. This was not a no knock warrant. They had junior and then the trio went inside.



Is there really a difference if the guy sleeping in the bed has no idea you're coming in with guns?



There is a difference. Unfortunately, the living room lights weren't on, the dude wasn't woken up by pounding on the door and an anouncement of police presence, the officer was yelling to shut the dog up like a burglar would, ... Thus point #2 in my original post.


My statement above was to help clarify some of the misunderstanding that others had posted on.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:50:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I'm curious. If the weapon is only held at the side and never pointed at anyone does that give justification for lethal force as an officer. I mean if I answered a 1:00am pound at the door with pistol in hand could they just shoot me dead for that? I know heat of the moment changes perceptions so maybe it's reasonable in this story but not in the analogy. As a monday morning quarterback, I'd be a little questioning of knowing a person had a pistol and knowing it was not pointed at anyone but shooting anyway.



Yes, they can shoot you and no charges filed. Gun in the hand is a free shoot ticket. Its been that way my entire life. Its why I always leave my pants by the bed and slap them on then put my gun in the waist.

The real crime here is the policy of "No Knock" warrants on misdemenors. This set this inevitiable scenario in place.

This is tragic for everyone involved.

Tj



Interesting. Adds yet another reason why I will take a position and let them come to me. Having a member of your family down there with them kinda interferes with that plan though.



Sorry the "no knock" comment. I edited it after realizing I was following a post instead of the story.

Grunteled was just faster on the button.

However with "No Knocks" now being a part of lives as well as others in our family, it just continues to stress more emphasis on us as non-LEOs to not have gun in our hands until we have identified a target. Even if you show compassion, catch a badguy, and don't shoot him, you still are a free target if you are standing there with a gun in your hand when the law shows up.

Sucks to be us but that's the way it is.

Tj



I've been involved with a situation in which I was undercover and the bad guy covered the responding officers did not know who I was. I put down my gun and assumed a non-threating position until things were cleared up.

The same as I would do as an armed civilan.

A little common sense goes along way.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:50:56 PM EDT
If I had to bet, I'd say that Junior said "Please be quiet. My Dad is a light sleeper and (he'll never get back to sleep if we wake him / he'll kill me if he knows I've been arrested again)" and the cops said "OK." Then the dogs started up, Pop woke up, and the water started swirling in the bowl.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:51:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By ryann:
I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them?
What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated?
Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable.
This sounds just like one of those incidents.



Ryann,

I disagree with you strongly on the, "why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers?" comment. Ever wake up late at night to a flashlight shining in your face? It takes a few seconds for one's eyes to adjust. I think you're making excuses where they aren't needed.

The officers made an error of judgement in how they handled the whole, "I want my shoes," thing.

The shooting was a result of that bad judgement. It wasn't the man's fault that he didn't know that police officers where in his house. It wasn't his fault that he didn't obey their instructions right away (why would he? Because some stranger in his house yells, "Drop it now!"? That stranger could be anyone). It wasn't the victim's fault that he couldn't see the officers when they had their flashlights on him.

Once they were in the situation, I can somewhat understand why the shooting happened. My thought is that the situation should never have happened in the first place.




It's a situation that sounds a lot like a home invasion. We all have to decide how to handle a bunch of strangers showing up with flashlights and guns in the middle of the night. Could be invaders, could be cops.
As long as the cops use the same tactics as home invaders we will be stuck with the uncertainly and we will be in a catch 22.



Agreed. One of my worst nightmares is being the victim of a mistaken address by a house raid.

I know the kid is part of the problem. I'm not disagreeing with that. He deserved to be in trouble for not showing up in court. Still, that doesn't justify how the arrest was handled. Another reason I'm glad I didn't go into Law Enforcement. Low pay, have to deal with criminals on a frequent basis, and one bad judgement can get some innocent person killed.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:51:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2005 12:53:51 PM EDT by ryann]

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By ryann:
I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them?
What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated?
Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable.
This sounds just like one of those incidents.



Ryann,

I disagree with you strongly on the, "why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers?" comment. Ever wake up late at night to a flashlight shining in your face? It takes a few seconds for one's eyes to adjust. I think you're making excuses where they aren't needed.

The officers made an error of judgement in how they handled the whole, "I want my shoes," thing.

The shooting was a result of that bad judgement. It wasn't the man's fault that he didn't know that police officers where in his house. It wasn't his fault that he didn't obey their instructions right away (why would he? Because some stranger in his house yells, "Drop it now!"? That stranger could be anyone). It wasn't the victim's fault that he couldn't see the officers when they had their flashlights on him.

Once they were in the situation, I can somewhat understand why the shooting happened. My thought is that the situation should never have happened in the first place.



He had to have seen the officers before they shined their lights on him, wouldn't you guess? Is the house pitch dark, or are the lights on so junior can get his shoes? Like I asked, what is being said during all this? I don't read that the cops barged into his bedroom, I interpret that he came out of the bedroom into the living room and confronted the cops-time to get his cognitive thoughts together, wouldn't you say?
The only overt mistake the cops may have made is letting the arrestee go back for his shoes. This act of unnecessary consideration is what set this chain of events in motion.
In the words of a famous polish philosopher-"shitski happens."
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.


+1. MM warrant execution is often preceding by a letter TELLING the subject there's a warrant outstanding, and giving him "office hours," directions, and a phone number for turning himself in.



I don't think criminals are really concerned about keeping their addresses updated with the police and making sure their mom and dad know about any warrants if they get a letter from the police.....




C'mon now. What address to 9 out of 10 dirtbags give the cops? What's the only address 8 out of 10 actually know by heart?



Also it was probably Mom and Dad who signed the bond to get him out. So there is 99% chance they knew.

The SON is the one who caused all of this by not taking care of HIS business.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:53:52 PM EDT
Just to re-iterate for some folks who either didn't read the article or missed that part of the article, according to the info we have, the only light in the house was from the officers flashlights (probably pointed in the now-deceased's eyes?).

The deputies will be resigned.
The widow will get a nice paycheck.
Junior gets to live with contributing to getting his father killed by being a drunken loser.

Sad. Sad. Sad all around.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:55:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Making those types of arrests can happen at anytime or day. The best time to find them is late at night, early morning or on Sundays.




It's the late at night thing I have a problem with. Early in the morning or on Sundays, fine, but you're just asking for this sort of thing to happen late at night.



You go when the person is most likely to be home. And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.



Why compound the problem? You'll get him eventually anyway, if he is a shithead. As for the parents knowing, does that make the father's death somehow explainable? I don't think so.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:56:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
I'm sorry, but if, late at night, somebody busts down my door OR I find two strangers in my house yelling at my dog to shut up, I'm going to shoot first and make demands/ask questions later.

If it turns out they didn't need shooting, I'll send flowers. Better them than me.

It sounds cold, but no matter how you look at the situation, it's a tragedy. I'd rather it wasn't my own personal tragedy, thank you kindly.




After reading this story thats the exact stance im going to take. Better them then me. Only thing is, I dont feel like going to pine oil heaven.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:56:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ryann:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By ryann:
I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them?
What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated?
Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable.
This sounds just like one of those incidents.



Ryann,

I disagree with you strongly on the, "why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers?" comment. Ever wake up late at night to a flashlight shining in your face? It takes a few seconds for one's eyes to adjust. I think you're making excuses where they aren't needed.

The officers made an error of judgement in how they handled the whole, "I want my shoes," thing.

The shooting was a result of that bad judgement. It wasn't the man's fault that he didn't know that police officers where in his house. It wasn't his fault that he didn't obey their instructions right away (why would he? Because some stranger in his house yells, "Drop it now!"? That stranger could be anyone). It wasn't the victim's fault that he couldn't see the officers when they had their flashlights on him.

Once they were in the situation, I can somewhat understand why the shooting happened. My thought is that the situation should never have happened in the first place.



He had to have seen the officers before they shined their lights on him, wouldn't you guess? Is the house pitch dark, or are the lights on so junior can get his shoes? Like I asked, what is being said during all this? I don't read that the cops barged into his bedroom, I interpret that he came out of the bedroom into the living room and confronted the cops-time to get his cognitive thoughts together, wouldn't you say?
The only overt mistake the cops may have made is letting the arrestee go back for his shoes. This act of unnecessary consideration is what set this chain of events in motion.
In the words of a famous polish philosopher-"shitski happens."



But Article 4 and all that 'rights' nonsense applies to all rooms of the house.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:57:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2005 12:59:29 PM EDT by ryann]

Originally Posted By Dracster:
Just to re-iterate for some folks who either didn't read the article or missed that part of the article, according to the info we have, the only light in the house was from the officers flashlights (probably pointed in the now-deceased's eyes?).

The deputies will be resigned.
The widow will get a nice paycheck.
Junior gets to live with contributing to getting his father killed by being a drunken loser.

Sad. Sad. Sad all around.



Then how was the kid supposed to find his shoes? All three are stumbling around in the dark long enough for daddy to come out of the bedroom into the living room?
I respect military veterans as much if not more than the next guy, but why does the deceased past service have more credibility than the police offcers present? Maybe they were military vets as well.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:58:24 PM EDT
I don't understand.

Article says the officers "LET HIM GO BACK INSIDE" to get his shoes. That implies they had already been inside.

So, my question--why did the cops go back inside WITH GUNS DRAWN, especially for a misdemeanor bench warrant? If he was already under arrest, wouldn't the fact that they "trusted" him to go back inside to get his shoes imply that they thought the suspect & situation were relatively secure?
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:58:58 PM EDT
You guys saying he should have started shooting... at what? If he has flashlights shining at him, he can't see shit. Where is his son? Right in front of him? Maybe. How much of an Internet badass do you think you'll be after you shoot in the direction of flashlights in your house and then walk up to the body of your son you just shot to death?

I think this shows the need to bring your own flashlight or weapon mounted light. And shoot first.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:59:12 PM EDT
Ryann,

Unfortunately I can't make an educated statement about how dark the house was or the effects of the flashlights because I wasn't there, and neither were you. I admit that I'm speculating about what it would be like if I woke up, grabbed my gun, and went to investigate a strange noise. Waking to a dark house and then having a flashlight flashed in my face would be very disorienting.

Of course, I keep a very large flashlight next to my bed for just such an occasion.

I'm very sorry for the deceased and I'm very sorry for the officers involved. Unfortunately, the police department is now going to have to deal with the possible uproar from the community. Not a good thing.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 12:59:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:01:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2005 1:07:00 PM EDT by gunman0]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.


+1. MM warrant execution is often preceding by a letter TELLING the subject there's a warrant outstanding, and giving him "office hours," directions, and a phone number for turning himself in.



I don't think criminals are really concerned about keeping their addresses updated with the police and making sure their mom and dad know about any warrants if they get a letter from the police.....




C'mon now. What address to 9 out of 10 dirtbags give the cops? What's the only address 8 out of 10 actually know by heart?



Do the parent's open the kids mail, probably not. Aldo, that is illegal without his permission.

The parents could have easily not known the kid had an arrest, trial, and warrant.

If police are going to enter these homes late at night, they should at least check to see who the hell own/rent's the home, and thus who is likely to be inside.

The kid bears only the slightest responsibility for the events, only the fact that the police were there was his fault. Everything the police did, from entering the home without asking if anyone else was home, to not identifying themselves clearly while inside the home, or during the confrontation is on the police officers.

I assume a lot of the DUI misdemeanor warrants are issued on kids living with their parents, and usually, if a warrant was issued, it'd be a good bet that the kid did not notify the parents of the situation at all.

The most important thing is to learn from these events, and attempt to prevent them in the future.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:02:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Ryann,

Unfortunately I can't make an educated statement about how dark the house was or the effects of the flashlights because I wasn't there, and neither were you. I admit that I'm speculating about what it would be like if I woke up, grabbed my gun, and went to investigate a strange noise. Waking to a dark house and then having a flashlight flashed in my face would be very disorienting.

Of course, I keep a very large flashlight next to my bed for just such an occasion.

I'm very sorry for the deceased and I'm very sorry for the officers involved. Unfortunately, the police department is now going to have to deal with the possible uproar from the community. Not a good thing.



I'm sorry for both involved as well, but unlike you I'm not pointing the finger decisively at either side.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:04:10 PM EDT
I agree with Ryann that past military service has no bearing on the case.

Police policy should be the same no matter the background of the other people involved.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:05:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2005 1:06:40 PM EDT by Shane333]

Originally Posted By ryann:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Ryann,

Unfortunately I can't make an educated statement about how dark the house was or the effects of the flashlights because I wasn't there, and neither were you. I admit that I'm speculating about what it would be like if I woke up, grabbed my gun, and went to investigate a strange noise. Waking to a dark house and then having a flashlight flashed in my face would be very disorienting.

Of course, I keep a very large flashlight next to my bed for just such an occasion.

I'm very sorry for the deceased and I'm very sorry for the officers involved. Unfortunately, the police department is now going to have to deal with the possible uproar from the community. Not a good thing.



I'm sorry for both involved as well, but unlike you I'm not pointing the finger decisively at either side.



Are you sure you haven't picked sides? Hmmm...
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:06:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Making those types of arrests can happen at anytime or day. The best time to find them is late at night, early morning or on Sundays.




It's the late at night thing I have a problem with. Early in the morning or on Sundays, fine, but you're just asking for this sort of thing to happen late at night.



You go when the person is most likely to be home. And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son.



Why compound the problem? You'll get him eventually anyway, if he is a shithead. As for the parents knowing, does that make the father's death somehow explainable? I don't think so.



My point was they more than likely knew about the warrant and should have turned him in.

I put this squarely on the SON's shoulders.

What do you mean "get him anyway"? That's how 90% of warrants are executed by going to home and picking the person up. So LEO's are just suppose to ignore that stack of warrants and wait to see if they get stopped sometime?
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:07:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:10:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
I agree with Ryann that past military service has no bearing on the case.

Police policy should be the same no matter the background of the other people involved.



Nah it doesn't on the circumstance but is news worthy. The life expentancy of a door gunner in Nam was worse than a medic at D Day making this all the more tragic is all.

Tj



Wow! That sure hits the mark. My cross country coach in high school served two tours of duty in Nam on a rescue chopper team. It's amazing he lived through it.

I'm curious? Were medics primary targets in WWII. My dad was a medic during Vietnam and commented once that medics were often singled out by the enemy.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:10:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By limaxray:
I don't understand.

Article says the officers "LET HIM GO BACK INSIDE" to get his shoes. That implies they had already been inside.

So, my question--why did the cops go back inside WITH GUNS DRAWN, especially for a misdemeanor bench warrant? If he was already under arrest, wouldn't the fact that they "trusted" him to go back inside to get his shoes imply that they thought the suspect & situation were relatively secure?



The "go back inside" probably refers to the kid going back into the house in which he lives. Not the whole group going back inside to the point of arrest.

He was probably on the porch barefoot grabbing a smoke, getting stoned, or just drinking outside (instead of while driving for once) or something along those lines, gets arrested, and wants to "go back inside" to get his shoes.

As for having guns drawn, I guess they were naive enough to let him go back inside for shoes, but not dumb enough to let someone in custody go into an environment unfamiliar to them without being prepared for the worst (i.e. going for the shotgun just inside the door).
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:14:20 PM EDT
thats why i have a Five-seveN in the nightstand......

no ID? in the house?

you get shot, LEO or not.

Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:19:56 PM EDT
What I'm really wondering is why the cops didn't just turn on the lights with a light-switch while they were in the house??? They walk back in with junior to get shoes, why do it by flashlights when you have light bulbs and light-switches????
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:20:31 PM EDT
You know, why did dad come out with a gun in the first place? He knew junior was there, and if he heard the officers, he heard junior. Does dad ALWAYS show up with a gun when junior brings home guests?

Somebody is leaving out a few facts in the story.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:21:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2005 1:23:48 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:22:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
You know, why did dad come out with a gun in the first place? He knew junior was there, and if he heard the officers, he heard junior. Does dad ALWAYS show up with a gun when junior brings home guests?

Somebody is leaving out a few facts in the story.



Nah, that never happens with newspaper reports.

BTDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:22:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By limaxray:
I don't understand.

Article says the officers "LET HIM GO BACK INSIDE" to get his shoes. That implies they had already been inside.

So, my question--why did the cops go back inside WITH GUNS DRAWN, especially for a misdemeanor bench warrant? If he was already under arrest, wouldn't the fact that they "trusted" him to go back inside to get his shoes imply that they thought the suspect & situation were relatively secure?



I don't read that they went back inside "WITH GUNS DRAWN." Perhaps they drew their guns when confronted by daddy? I'm having a hard time believing that the house was pitch dark, no noise inside except for the dog barking, daddy stumbles out of the bedroom with his gun, is confronted by flashlights in his eyes (again, with no other light source whatsoever in the house) and without a word spoken by daddy, the scumbag kid (young adult actually) or the cops, the cops just gleefully gun him down.
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:24:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert-with-an-AR:
thats why i have a Five-seveN in the nightstand......

no ID? in the house?

you get shot, LEO or not.




...you win the internet badass of the day award!
Link Posted: 5/10/2005 1:24:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
There are plenty of opportunities for a police officer to display human decency and/or Christian kindness to people in his custody.



No good deed goes unpunished. Condolences to all three families involved in this. My 20/20 hindsight says that the officers should have turned the lights on in the house but I'm a 1000 miles away in my recliner........


for all involved

wganz

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