IMHO, interesting.

I find it sad how gun owners in any way justify McVeigh's actions by citing Waco or Ruby Ridge.  Federal and local LE raid and arrest hundreds of thousands (millions?) of times per year.  A certain very small percentage are mistakes.  How do each of you do in your job - ever make a mistake?  A big one?  Ever work for a bad boss who makes bad decisions or policy?  What kind of person does that make you?  Maybe we should just write you off or trash your organization?

Making sweeping indictments about our government based on a few well-publicized incidents is wrong.

And making martyrs of the Branch Davidians is wrong too.  They were misguided cultists.  Koresh was to blame ultimately for what happened.  He had many opportunities to back down and fight it out in court, which was the appropriate battleground in this instance.

If you can't stand the system, I challenge you to find one better.  I suggest you spend your time and effort supporting organizations and politicians that agree with your particular viewpoint.

It's pulpy but fun.  A good vacation book, I think.  You'll find it in the airport giftshop near the Grishams and Cornwells.

Clinton and Reno have the best security money can buy. Roosevelt couldn't get to Hitler, so he killed the children of Dresdon to terrorize the Germans. If McVeigh's enemies ultimately are defeated, McVeigh will be considered a hero like the Americans in WW2.

Are you forgiving the pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor and the 9-11 hijackers because they were working for bad bosses?

Last time I made a mistake at work, it didn't directly lead to the deaths of dozens of children.  

Last time I made a mistake at work, I didn't get an award for it or a monument built in my honor.

If that's ALL you do, then you will FAIL. Because in voting, you can only choose between existing options, plus you will probably be out-voted by the misinformed masses. In lobbying, you can only lobby those who are already in office and who, at best, will continue doing whatever it was that brought them to office. And who, at worst, will consolidate more and more power bought with taxpayer-funded political favors; their concern about what YOU think dropping as their security in office rises.



I do not in any way support the actions McVeigh took. His plan was not only unjust, but almost certain to make things worse. And I do not claim to know all that much about his life history myself. But I do not doubt his genuine concern and I don't see how you can have such certain and clear-cut insight into his character. Unless you have the vision of God.

Perhaps you are just molding him to fit your neat concept of what a terrorist/murderer SHOULD be like?

I guess McVeigh was a volunteer rather than a paid worker, so his big mistake doesn't count.



It is not so much that mistakes were made, but the lack of accountability and corrective actions afterward for which our government rightfully deserves to be condemned.



Yes, that was the appropriate battleground. And the govenment authorities had MANY chances to arrest Koresh peacefully and bring him there. Instead, they wanted a media circus -- and they got one.



[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=107783[/url]

First let me say that I DO NOT agree with Timothy McVeigh's methods - most certainly not in the scenario they were carried out in - a protest of sorts.  Yes, I have kids.  Yes, TM will roast in hell.

That being said, if he snuffed Lon Horiuchi and a few FBI folks guarding Whoreiuchi were snuffed in the process, I personally would view them as collateral damage.

Tate

I 2nd that.

So Blaze....what you just told everyone is that Mcveigh, who was supposedly fighting a war, realized that the soldiers on the front line of the war he believed he was fighting were just like him....hmm, not so terrible. So, how did killing innocent americans, children, wives, husbands, etc, help his country?  Well, let's see...proposals for taggants in everything from gunpowder to fertilizer.  Increasing calls for even more gun control.  Justification for all the gun controls of the past to keep folks like him from getting weapons....wow he did great things for this country.  Maybe he should have at least made sure some field agents were in the building, but he didn't and ended up destroying lives of people who weren't even AT WACO!

McVeigh used ammonium nitrate, not a gun. Only mentally unfit people could relate gun control to McVeigh's act.

Agreed, McVeigh's act incurred collateral damage.

McVeigh tried, but apparently failed, to score a direct hit against the field agents. Not every strike in every war hits its target; he's arguably an incompetent, or unlucky, warrior.

McVeigh exhibited the devastating power of shaped ammonium-nitrate charges. He made it clear that enough ammonium nitrate in the right places would incur such a cost to his enemies, that they would sooner cease their provocative activities than receive further strikes. Not every act of strategic terrorism is immediately effective: Germany continued its offensive behavior following America's killing civilians in Hamburg and Dresdon.

McVeigh drew public attention to his enemy's deplorable actions, increasing the likelihood that the public would resist, through the democratic process or additional violence, further such actions.

Funny, you are not convincing me of anything by using those three assholes as examples.

Now if you want to hold someone accountable for the ROE you need to go WAY above Horuchi's pay grade.  That guy needs to be in jail. Same with the idiots who forced violent conflict at Waco.  Once BATF began thier assault on the BD's that situation quickly left any semblance of rational control behind and was doomed to collapse into violent chaos. They trapped Koresh in his strong point instead of capturing him while he was away from the compound, thus rendering his movement headless. Again, whoever masterminded that C.F. needed to have his head handed to him on the judicial plate. But declaring war on the grunts who take the orders is just plain stupid.

Honestly I think a lot of guys around here are so wrapped up in the second amendment cause that they cannot see straight anymore. Sometimes a tactical bungle is nothing more than that, a tactical bungle.  For the record, I think BATF is an unconstitutional agency and needs to be shut down as far as possible, basically returned to their charter status as tax collectors and nothing more.  But all cops are not jack booted thugs, and all government agencies are not part of some evil conspiracy to take your guns away. Most are just trying to do their jobs and do some good. That sometimes certain agencies are run by political hacks who subvert their organizations to their political motivations and agendas.  Neither does it make the foot soldiers, called on to difficult, dangerous and generally thankless work, evil monsters.

But hey, it's easier to just condemn everyone under a blanket indictment than to actually take a look at the situation, leaving your prejudices behind you, opening your mind to the possibility that everyone isn't out to get you.  But then, why choose the difficult path when you can thump your chest and howl about government conspiracies.

Yes there is an effort to eliminate private gun ownership in America.  Yes a lot of political hacks use every possible excuse to abridge our 2nd Amendment rights. Yes those political hacks mount investigations and operations that are not consistutional. Yes, the gun charges against Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians were ridiculous and unconstitutional, but that doesn't make either poster children for the 2nd Amendment.  Both were so far out there that they could NEVER win public support for the cause.  Neither were either of them boy scouts.  Weaver's racism and Koresh's clear insanity and allegations of child molestation and rape are not the kind of things to inspire empathy from Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom Merlot.

If you think that's not important you are out of your mind.  Our cause will be won or lost in the court of public opinion, not on any battlefield. If it goes to the battlefield, then our cause is LOST for good, and those who stand to fight will die righteously, but uselessly and America as a whole will vote down the 2nd Amendment lawfully.

We learned at the end of world war 2 that "I was only following orders" is NOT a defense to murder.

The problem with proving murder in this case is that at the time Mrs. Weaver was hit, Randy Weaver, his daughter and Harris were running back to the cabin after advancing to a forward position in response to a helicopter overflight.  Horuchi claims to have been firing on the three armed people and missed with one shot, which just happened to hit Mrs. Weaver in the neck where she was standing directly in the doorway that the three were fleeing to.

Unfortunately that cannot be proved or disproved in a court of law since none of the witnesses are unbiased.  Horuchi's team mate in his fighting position would have been as close to him as a brother, so his opinion is not trustworthy, but also neither Weaver, Harris or Weaver's daughter were in a position to tell where Horuchi was aiming or not, they were too busy moving back to the cabin after their little IA drill.

So, in the absence of a good witness...

How pathetic that most people here think that Tim McVeigh was responsible for OKC.  Look deeper and find out the truth - you will see that McVeigh had a small part to play in that bombing.  Jeez - I guess you guys all believe Oswald killed Kennedy and the Jews started the Reichstag fire.  Sad.  No wonder the scoialists are winning.

Does anybody have a picture of Horiuchi?

Point granted.  Manslaughter, then.

If I, as a non-LEO, ever had to draw my glock to defend myself, missed my intended target, and accidentially killed an innocent bystander, that's what I would be charged with and convicted of.  Hold the folks that work for us to the same standard.

Which is the meaning of the "all men are created equal" line of the Declaration of Independence. See [url=http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?control=804]Equality: The Unknown Ideal[/url]