Heroes are individuals who act with a courage and selflessness that are considered above the call of ordinary function or duty.

Sorry, LEO's, EMT's and FF's don't sign up to die in the line of duty. They know there are risks associated with the job but I have yet to read a "job description" that stated you are expected to die performing your job.

Every time I respond to a call somewhere in the back of my mind there is always the thought that this could be it for me.  I can't believe that a Fire Fighter or EMT who enters a burning building doesn't have that same thought.

They died trying to save us.  It was not their "job" to die that day. Are they heroes? In my book they are.

Were there other people from every walk of life that that performed heroic acts and died on 9-11?  Definitely.

Sir,
   The expert's you were refering to were the designers of the Twin Tower's's, not the HIRT's teams and LEO's. I will tell you with certainty, every knowledgeable Firefighter and LEO that responded, knew that the building's was going to collapse. I saw it in real time, I knew that chances of that tower going down were great, given the numer of floors involved and the fuel load, thermal shock, etc. Designers of buildings know shit about the effect of blast/fire and many other variables. Trained Firefighters know different.
    A nuclear power plant in TENN. for example had a fire the 'experts' tried for three days to put it out, then in desperation they called the local Fire Department the fire was under control in three hours.

If my logical reasoning is flawed here, correct me, since you know so much about the subject of building construction and fire dynamics. but I believe you know nothing about the subject, or what 'nads' are required to do the job. BTW, I retired as a Shift-Commander, and commanded Fire Inspection for a number of years. I didn't get the job because I was stupid, or played checkers better than the others.
   State your qualifications to judge my "lack of mental capability"...'to those I served.' I'm all ears......Asshole!
                         Gib (bring it on)

I think that any moderator who calls another member and Idiot, is a hero.
Not!!!!!

Tom

Gentlemen, please keep this discussion civil.  We're just viewing opinons here.  There's no need for anyone to flame anybody for that.

There's been some very good input to this thread.  Let's keep up that trend.

CMOS

The firefighters who were in building 2 after one came down? Heros.
The PATH train crew who came through and picked everyone up on the route after their HQ said the buildings were coming down? Heros.
The first 10 passengers who charged hardened knifefighters blades with their dick in their hands and some BS silverware? Heros.
Regular firefighter or cop on the beat? Could be a hero, could be a zero, we have to wait until their moment of truth to find out (could be running into a burning building, could be pulling fellow cops off of beating a guy in cuffs and knowing what that means from the cop union brotherhood)

I think they are all heroes. but one thing that always annoys me is the widespread use of  "beyond the call of duty." I remember watching resue 911 as a kid and seeing rescue personell performing simple tasks that put thier live is ZERO danger and took a minimal of time. in most cases it would seem like a text-book operation BUT NO according to bystanders they were going FARRRRR beyond the call of duty and definatly deserved a medal of gallantry for taking saving thier son's live after he had been bit by a rattler. or taking somones little girl to the hospital after she had nearll drowned but been revived 5 MINUTES before the rescue workers got there.

OK those are some extremeties But I still think that those words "above and beyond" are used way to easily and often. afterall 99% of what cops/firemen/paramedics ect... do IS thier DUTY.


every now and then i see stories where these people DO go above and beyond and id like to keep the honor where it BELONGS.

like to the cops,firemen and rescue workers on the scene on sept. 11.  [marines]

From Websters online dictionary:

Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'hE-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
Date: 14th century
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities [b]d : one that shows great courage[/b]
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL  

I reckon they qualify.

If you are so certain (as in phrase in red), then how come you are only partially certain (as in phrase in blue) in the later part of your statement.

If you say that there is a great chance, then there is a small chance otherwise. Being so, you are then not certain!

Using big words will not make you seem smart when you contradict yourself within the same sentence. You may have 20 yrs. of service, you may be a Shift-Commander, and commanded a Fire Inspection but it does not mean that you did well in your job, were qualified to be, or for that matter, know more than those who designed the Twin Towers.

I am happy that you are retired. Spend the golden years thinking how great you were rather that proving it. It is a lot safer for you and your community.

No need to stress out on my behalf, I do not want to cause your family grief. Besides, I will not pick a fight of wits with someone who is senile and unarmed.

Good night and you can turn the volume of your hearing aid down now! [:D]

OOOoooppss! Do not forget to wear your Pampers before going to bed. [;)]

Since everyone seems to have an opinion, let me add mine. Since I am military here is the military requirement for heroism.  Military definition  (as required for the MoH):  

"a person who, while a member of the military, distinguishes himself or herself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States....The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have involved risk of life. Incontestable proof of the performance of the service will be exacted and each recommendation for the award of this decoration will be considered on the standard of extraordinary merit."

"SFC Zabitosky's patrol was operating deep within enemy territory when they were attacked by a numerically superior NVA unit. SFC Z rallied team members, deployed them into  positions, and, exposing himself to enemy automatic weapons fire, directed their return fire. Realizing the gravity of the situation, SFC Z ordered his patrol to move to a LZ for helicopter extraction while he covered their withdrawal with rifle fire and grenades. Rejoining the patrol under increasing enemy pressure, he positioned each man in a tight perimeter defense and continually moved from man to man, encouraging them and controlling their fire. Mainly due to his example, the outnumbered patrol maintained its precarious position until the arrival of air support and a helicopter extraction team. As the helicopters arrived, the determined NVA pressed their attack. SFC Z repeatedly exposed himself to their fire to adjust suppressive gunship fire around the landing zone. After boarding 1 of the helicopters, he positioned himself in the door delivering fire on the enemy as the ship took off. The helicopter was engulfed in a hail of bullets and SFC Z was thrown from the craft as it spun out of control and crashed. Recovering consciousness, he ignored his extremely painful injuries and moved to the flaming wreckage. Heedless of the danger of exploding ordnance and fuel, he pulled the severely wounded pilot from the searing blaze and made repeated attempts to rescue his patrol members but was driven back by the intense heat. Despite his serious burns and crushed ribs, he carried and dragged the unconscious pilot through a curtain of enemy fire to within 10 feet of a hovering rescue helicopter before collapsing."
 
Almost any of the other MoH/DSC/SS citations would read similarly, and be held to the same standard.

Now for my opinion. Firemen and police officers on 9/11? Some, certainly, who subordinated their own survival instincts to help others, particularly when they could have been elsewhere. Passengers on Flight 93 who fought, knowing what awaited them if they did not? Possibly, though they had little other choice. If you assume they did it, not in the expectation of saving their own lives, but in the interest of saving the people who would have been killed when the aircraft impacted, I would buy that. People who were unfortunately sitting in their offices when the aircraft hit? I am sorry, but I do not believe so. In all but a few cases, they did not deliberately put themselves in harm's way to serve others, above and beyond what was required of them. "Sports heros" and "heroic actors"? Short of the ones who served in combat, absolutely not.

Anyone who voluntarily makes it their job to put their lives on the line for others is a hero.

I have a different perspective.... I get to work with the 60,000 firefighers in Texas and thousands of others from around the globe.

They represent departments that have adequate budgets, with the latest state-of-the-art apparatus and gear.....to the guys  who host Bar-B-Que cookoffs to raise bucks to put diesel in their 20 year old truck.

They come to us from all 50 states and over 50 foreign countries....from New York City, Los Angeles to Wide Spot West Texas.  We will train over 50,000 students this year....municipal, industrial, maritime, rescue, hazmat, WMD, terrorism, incident management, ems, oil spill...you name it.

We operate a $150million dollar training facility that has been described as the Disneyland of Fire and Rescue.  We make them sweat, learn and challenge their abilities.  

They learn to function as a team, so at 3am they can take care of whatever Mrs. Jones called 911 about....fire, rescue, hazmat, ems, or customer service...like that cat in the tree.

Because Mrs. Jones knows...she can call the fire department...be it paid or volunteer and the troops will show up to help her.  

Heroes?  Depends....yes they are doing their job...some are paid and most are not.  I have been in the fire and emergency service for over 20 years....firefighter, chief, and instructor.  I am one lucky guy...cause I get to work and make a difference with the greatest group of people on earth.  

And perhaps after Sept 11th...Mrs. Jones now has a little better understanding about what they do...it is much more that just fighting fires.    

They will be there when Mrs. Jones calls...no matter what.  

First, I'm guessing they believed that they could retake the plane. If that's true they were trying to save their own asses. Nothing wrong with that but is it heroic? Maybe. Strange how you catagorize those people as real Americans and true patriots as if the saftey forces that died trying to save people aren't. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you just don't like cops but could'nt get away with down playing their sacrifices without adding all the dead firefighters to your B.S.. I think it was Col. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington USMC (a hero by the way) who said "Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum". What he meant by that is when you are placed on a pedistal you make an easy target and some a**hole can't resist taking a shot at knocking you down. Jealous? Then if you can't give them a little respect try finding a job (maybe a volunteer Firefighter if you have the balls) where you give something to your community rather than take everything you can get. You are the real American, so f*cking spoiled and used to having everything given to you that you can't even acknowledge a selfless act of heroism because they were employed by the government. A**hole!

OK, here it is plainly and clearly: You have no clue what it is like to what I do. Fighting fires and restoring power to homes is not the same thing. Never has...never will. I respect those who do their jobs well. I do not look down my nose at anyone simply because thay have not "Danced with the Devil".

You sir, on the other hand liken what I do to that of other service employees. It simply isnt the same. Excepting the anomaly that was the WTC, the FDNY lost 798 members since its inception in 1865. Now, I can hardly think of any service industry other than miners (sp) that have lost that many members. Every day I go to work, I know that it may be my last, I dont dwell upon it as it would drive the sane mad. But think of it this way: 798, thats for the [b]FDNY[/b] alone, add a few others in there and we get a much larger number. What were each of these men doing when they were killed? Sacrificing their lives so that others may live. Linemen do not do that, miners do not do that...late night slurpee jocks do not do it either. The only people on this planet that sacrifice their lives in the line of duty are [b]Firefeghters, LEO, EMS, and the Military[/b]Your 'heroic' lineman does not sacrifice his life so that others may live, there are [b]ALWAYS[/b] other options for his 'freezing to death' occupants. They may seek shelter elsewhere, as they often do. When a firefighter is crawling down the hallway, beating back the fire, looking for incapacitated occupants...that is a true emergency...there are much fewer options left open to said occupants.

Get it now?...apples and oranges.

Sorry, I dont much like them either, but I was using them as an example.

Sukebe, you're a real poet with the flames and foul language.

If you can't be civil with your opinon, please just keep it to yourself.

CMOS

If you liked that "poem", you'll love this one.

Kiss my ass scumbag.

bee,

If you will go look at page 2, I did not start this! Read all my post on this thread except the last 2 and tell me if I was in any way disrespectful.

I am sorry that I have offended you and some of the members here who has earned my respect through the years but if I am personally attacked for stating my unpopular views, then I will, like any member here will "reply" back.

Good night and sleep well!

Wow Sukebe, that's brilliant.  Well done.

CMOS

Well said...I'd rather not be at each others throats over this...I am simply disappointed.

Don't worry about me Beekeeper. I'm done with this one. Obvoiuosly I touched a nerve with CMOS. Sorry for the outburst. It's been a while since I did that.

As am I. I only hope some of you will someday see the light. I do not pretend that simply because I am member of the fire department, that makes my life more important. It is the contributions of Firefighters, Paramedics, EMT's, LEO's, and the military that make it possible for the general public to sleep well at night.

Dont worry, we are still here, watching over you.

OK gentlemen, unless you can get this one back on track without all the name calling and cussing at each other, it's about to get terminated.

We all have our preconcieved ideas of who and what we each consider to be a hero. Just because we don't agree with each other doesn't diminish each others personal beliefs.

BTW CMOS, did you fall on your head recently?? [;)]

Yeah, I'll have to hold back a few f-u's on this one for now, too.

But this topic is one that we'll be seeing a more of in the future from a liberal press which is always eager to knock down the heroic status of any profession other than it's own.

And they know they can always count on their lickspittal friends to assist them in their endeavors.

So tell me what lickspittal tastes like?[:D]

I simply haven't a clue!

Eric The(Anyone?)Hun[>]:)]

You sure about that?
[B)]

Are those firefighters and police officers who died at the WTC on 09-09-01 heroes. Well before I answer first I need to explain a few things. First is what is a hero anyway and what do I feel is a hero. My belief is that for a firefighter or police officer to be a Hero he or she has do something that is above and beyond the call of duty, the same as it is for military personal. If not above and beyond the call of duty, then everyone in the service who risked his life in the call of duty would qualify for the Medal of Honor, just as it would then for all fighters and police officer who risked their lives.

And how about, as has been posted, people who are not public servants, like lineman or how about construction workers who also have a dangerous job and risk their lives in the performance of that job, are they also Heroes. I will tell you a fact my father was an Ironworker and his job was very dangerous. In fact on one job during the time that my father worked their, there were eleven Brave Men who fell to their death. This construction project was the Niagara Power Project, the hydroelectric plant on the Niagara River. So these men died so that people could have electricity and all it’s benefits, are they also Heroes?  And tell me this except for those of you who are Ironworkers or other construction workers who work hundreds of feet above the ground, how many of you would walk or coon the high steel or hang over the edge with only a rope between you and eternity. And lets not forget farmers who have one of the most dangerous jobs.

Many people do things for work that others consider dangerous, but does that automatically make them heroes when they die doing their chosen job.

I would not show up to my place of employment for free. My cousin would (and does) though! He has been a volunteer Sheriffs Deputy for five years! LOL...FIVE YEARS of FREE service to our community! Without fail...he will be there, no matter what the situation, he will be there. Maybe for you one day! Will he be your hero then? He does not go to work for money. He does not like the spotlight...or to even discuss some of the horror that he has seen. He doesnt ask for ANYTHING. He is just one of so many. Paid or Unpaid.....Policemen, Firefighters, EMTs,..... and the like are heroes. LOL...look up hero in the dictionary (since some of you like to play with words so much)Hell...I did it for ya...here is a link:
[url]http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=hero[/url]
This definition applies to everyone of those brave people who died in service of their community/country that day...! I say THANK GOD that there are people willing to risk life and limb to help me. I will never argue or use word play to detract from the job and service they provide. Thanks to each and every one of you that engage in serving and protecting the rest of us!

So to answer the question, were those firefighters and police officers Heroes, the answer is depends. Those who went into the buildings were very courageous that is undeniable, anyone who goes into a building that is in that condition is courageous and has what it takes to be a Hero. And if they believe that this building is different then most of the other buildings on fire they have entered and this one they may not survive then they are heroes in every way that really matters. And if they believe that it is so bad that they have slim chance of surviving and they would be in their rights to refuse entry because of the extreme danger and yet they still enter the building in the attempt to save lives, then they are truly absolute Heroes in every single way. Remember their is nothing in their job description that requires them to commit suicide in the line of duty. This goes for both firefighters and police officers, and Military personal.

So to finally answer this question, my personal belief is that most if not all of those firefighters are true Heroes since they must have known that this fire was like none they had ever fought and their lives were in extreme danger. As to the police officers some of them, the ones who realized that they might not be going home and yet stayed are Heroes, the rest of them died doing their sworn duty.

A few final thoughts, it was in Worcester Massachusetts where the firefighters died in the warehouse while looking for the homeless couple. Does everyone remember the aircraft crash in the Potomac River, DC where one of the surviving passengers made it to the life ring that could have taken him to safety but yet stayed and helped other people to safety including one of the stewardesses I watched on TV while as he helped her into the life ring and before he could be saved he drowned. This man willingly gave his life to save others and he is a true Hero.

And these true heroes, firefighters, police officers and civilians are with our Lord, for it is the greatest act of love to give your life for the life of another.

I was kinda aimed in only one direction [;D] and thank you for what you said earlier, I ahd some obligations tonight where I volunteer, and I didnt get a chance to say anything back.

No, I was working that night...but I did get to turn my back on the old battlewagon as she extended her hand for me to shake, while she was on one of her 'factfinding' tourist trips.

Post from LtMac313 -

It's a wonder you weren't immediately wrestled to the ground by some quick thinking Secret Service types for such aggressive behavior in front of the Former First Lady!

But thanks from all of us who would have loved to do the same thing to Sen. Hillary!

Eric The(GivingHerABronxCheerWouldSoundWonderfulAsWell)Hun[>]:)]

All those war heroes we love so much were just "doing their job". that doesn't mean they arent heroes. I guess in your opinion though, there are probably VERY few heroes in the world.

I agree 1000%.

AND...   The firefighters and police who assisted in the early hours, searching for potential survivors,
KNEW that they were going to suffer health problems due to the lack of proper respiratory protective gear.

BUT THEY STILL WENT IN !


HEROES -- ALL OF THEM!

It's a Marines job to run into the line of fire to retrieve his wounded buddy, or to charge a beach outnumbered 10 to 1. The men at Iwo Jima were "doing their job" but if you don't think their heroes then you have no concept what the word means.

Amen!

I guess the firefighters really weren't/aren't heroes after all.

They never face danger and are paid HUGE amounts of cash too !

NOT !

Look at these and tell me what you think:
(a picture is worth a thousand words)




[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/DSCN3613.jpg[/img]



[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/capt.1001502942attacks_trade_center_rob102%20[/img]



[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/662028.jpg[/img]



[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/11firefighters.jpg[/img]



[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/03X00174_9.jpg[/img]



[img]wtc.ar15.com/WTC/images/01sad_firefighters.jpg[/img]

Hero:
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, [b]especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.[/b]




[b]THEY'RE HEROES.[/b]

Can't help it.....gotta throw in mine....I truly believe that the Firemen who went into those 2 buildings KNEW that collapse was imminent. FFs see on a daily basis what fire does to the structural integrity of a given building. The designers know what it takes to build it, but the FF knows what it takes to bring it down, and Cops & EMS people, since they accompany FFs quite a bit, do too. Besides which, there does come a time when it is no longer your job, but what and who you ARE. AND.......at times, certain people will, when the stakes are high enough, do what they know has to be done, KNOWING that they are going to their deaths. We call these people HEROES.

"Hero" is a relative term. Some people find Sarah Brady and Capt. Pike, Diane Feinstein, or even Osama Bin Laden are heroes. Calling people names because they don't have the same qualifications that determine of who is and who isn't a hero is pointless.

Yes they would, but when they signed up I'm sure someone told when they going gets tough you'll show what your made of......... After all it's only a job, but then again where are all the reports in the media about police and firefighters refusing to go in? Or fleeing from the 2nd tower after the first one collapsed??  

I've seen a more than a few new strories about "just folks" that were in the building too. It's not about being worth more, again it is the difference between being in a car wreck and having the car slide into a river or canal and trying to get out. Or being someplace warm and dry and jumping into a canal or river after someone else who is trapped in there car.



"just a job" the day the signed up knowing what could happen to them for doing that job they showed more guts than most people.