STOP Breathalyzer Abuse: Remember the 3-2 Rule. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - STOP Breathalyzer Abuse: Remember the 3-2 Rule. (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:42:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

problem is, you can still get a wet neg driving if your under the limit. while i agree with the cab idea, who hasent stop by and had a few beers with a friend. That should not be against the law to drink if your under the limit. Most cops don't give a shit, its just a quota

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:46:26 PM EDT

[#2]

I have always heard the advice to say nothing, refuse the field sobriety test and the breath test. What happens if you follow this advice?

One of my uncles was killed by a drunk driver, so I have seen the effect is has on a family. Early on I knew that drinking and driving was not good, so I do not drink and drive. Therefore, I will never have to worry about trying to beat the system.

I just wish people would stop and think about what could happen when you drive a car after drinking. My uncle was killed in 1959. Till this day, my family is effected by the loss of his life.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:47:04 PM EDT

[#3]

If you think about the CO2 measured by capnography, it is definitely not constant over the exhalation cycle. It is highest at the end of breathing out (that's why it is called 'end-tidal CO2') So there is at least one gas in respiration that changes over the cycle.

I'd have to know what kind of sensor is being used in the Intoxilyzer to comment further on potential errors.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:51:36 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
If you think about the CO2 measured by capnography, it is definitely not constant over the exhalation cycle. It is highest at the end of breathing out (that's why it is called 'end-tidal CO2') So there is at least one gas in respiration that changes over the cycle.

I'd have to know what kind of sensor is being used in the Intoxilyzer to comment further on potential errors.

Uhh...........what??

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:54:06 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

no test sure you get arrested but it is then easier for your atorney to beat.....or at least to get a defered sentence here in Oklahoma...but if you have not been drinking take the test

exactly, the best attorney in the world can not get you off if you blow. Be nice, polite and clam. You can be sure the cop will be a dick and threaten your licese if you dont blow. Just tell him you refuse to answer questions and be nice.

Remember, the first question an officer ask, "have you been drinking" tell him in a calm voice NO I don't drink. If you said you had a couple of beers and refuse, your screwed. DO NOT ADMIT TO DRINKING ANYTHING.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:54:25 PM EDT

[#6]

You see, one scientist/doctor is the one who came up with alcohol testing methods.

He ran the experiments on himself. Taking blood, breath, and urine, samples from himself at the same time, and developing testing methods that came up with consistent results across all three types of samples.

Now, blood testing isn't effected by the cooperativeness of the test subject, as long as you get the blood.

Urine, the method used by the tester, was to go, so all the pre-drink urine was gone, than go again as soon as possible for the testing.

For breath, he would exhale as forcefully as he could to get "deep lung air". You see, the further up the respatory system the sample comes from the more diluted it is, from the air that was just inhaled. He wasn't interested in testing room air, the room should be sober. He was testing alcohol excreted into the lungs.

So when however talks about getting deep lung air is improper, the are disregarding how the human body eliminates alcohol, and how the test procudures for breath alcohol were validated.

I have personally, after a few drinks (all in the name of science, mind you) blown into an Intoxilyzer and obtained a reading of .099. That is over the legal limit. About three minutes later, I took my own advice and blew into the Intoxilyzer after three deep breaths. And blew only half of my breath. The result? A breath test reading of .028.

For someone who claims to understand how breath tests work, he sure is dumb. Banthony, is that you?

First, most test regimens require the testee be observed for a period of time prior to the test. That is to make sure there is nothing going in, or coming out, other than breathing. If you test shortly after taking a drink, most actual certified, evidentiary test instruments will test for "mouth alcohol". That is raw alcohol that is still in your mouth from the sip or glug that was just taken. The test will be stopped if mouth alcohol is detected.

Any certified breath test operator would know that.

I've tested it with mouthwash containing alcohol, and preliminary breath testers. I got some wild numbers, because I was basically exhaling mouthwash into the test instrument.

Like a lot of people, he has a little knowledge, then he tells some lies, and finishes up with the truth. He's a convincing liar, to people that don't understand what a breath tester does.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:55:40 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

For many people it only takes one or two beers to go over the limit.

If they are 60 lbs, on an empty stomach, and having 32 oz drinks, sure.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:57:12 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

problem is, you can still get a wet neg driving if your under the limit. while i agree with the cab idea, who hasent stop by and had a few beers with a friend. That should not be against the law to drink if your under the limit. Most cops don't give a shit, its just a quota

No, it is not just a quota, an OWI is a pain in the ass arrest that takes officers off the road for extended periods of time ust to do all the paperwork. But I, along with most officers I know take it seriously. After being on scene for a few fatal accidents where alcohol is involved, you would too.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:57:28 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you think about the CO2 measured by capnography, it is definitely not constant over the exhalation cycle. It is highest at the end of breathing out (that's why it is called 'end-tidal CO2') So there is at least one gas in respiration that changes over the cycle.

I'd have to know what kind of sensor is being used in the Intoxilyzer to comment further on potential errors.

Uhh...........what??

There is a machine in the medical industry used to monitor carbon dioxide (which is a gas produced as a waste by the body and exhaled through the lungs). As you exhale, the concentration of CO2 being given off changes. It is not constant while breathing out. There are a couple of reasons for this, but it does sound similar to the alcohol readings changing over the breath cycle.

There are different types of sensors used to measure gases (electrochemical, infrared, semiconductor, etc.) and they all have certain inherent limitations and sources of error. Knowing which is being used in the instrument can point towards the absolute accuracy it is capable of.

better?

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:57:30 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
If you think about the CO2 measured by capnography, it is definitely not constant over the exhalation cycle. It is highest at the end of breathing out (that's why it is called 'end-tidal CO2') So there is at least one gas in respiration that changes over the cycle.

I'd have to know what kind of sensor is being used in the Intoxilyzer to comment further on potential errors.

Newer ons pre-screen with IR spectography, and do the actual test with an electo-chemical reaction.

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:58:32 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I hope this works for you in FL, but in WI it will get you a refusal.

The on amount of breath being sampled being a major factor in the level of alcohol measured seems skewed.

I have had individuals submit to the intoximeter test, then request a second test (blood), if anything, the intoximeter will give a lower reading than that of a blood test.

In addition, the intoximeter requires two samples of breath that must be within .02 g/l or the test will not be valid, the machine further compensates and uses the lower of the two readings as the test result.

For all who follow the articles advice ( and there is some truly bizarre shit in there) good luck.

My advice is drink all you want, just don't drive.

I agree with the above. But the tinfoil hatters will believe what the OP quoted.

edit--it's great to see so many WI cops in this thread. After all, WI is the state ranked #1 in the number of people who admitted they drove drunk in the past year. And the only state where 1st-offense drunk driving is only a traffic ticket, not a "crime."

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:01:49 PM EDT

[#12]

Even mentioning a portable breath tester in AZ court will result in a mistrial.

I can't believe any state is still giving them any validity in court.

Stationary units are a different story.

Most agencies in AZ want blood and have cross trained their cops as phlebotomists. You don't get to choose.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:05:34 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Even mentioning a portable breath tester in AZ court will result in a mistrial.

I can't believe any state is still giving them any validity in court.

Stationary units are a different story.

Most agencies in AZ want blood and have cross trained their cops as phlebotomists. You don't get to choose.

When he says Intoxilyzer, he and talks about the test procedure he is clearly referring to the evidentiary test instruments.

When he mentions some of the other tests, it sure seems like he is talking about the hand held Preliminary Breath Testers, aka PBT's.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:13:35 PM EDT

[#14]

height=8

Quoted:
I hope this works for you in FL, but in WI it will get you a refusal.

The on amount of breath being sampled being a major factor in the level of alcohol measured seems skewed.

I have had individuals submit to the intoximeter test, then request a second test (blood), if anything, the intoximeter will give a lower reading than that of a blood test.

In addition, the intoximeter requires two samples of breath that must be within .02 g/l or the test will not be valid, the machine further compensates and uses the lower of the two readings as the test result.

For all who follow the articles advice ( and there is some truly bizarre shit in there) good luck.

My advice is drink all you want, just don't drive.

Even better, for WI just get the blood sample. You can then bitch and moan about the tech may have used isopropyl alcohol instead of iodine (or the antiseptic in the legal BAC kit). Nevermind the fact that they are two diff. types and the lab doesn't measure isopropyl alcohol.

You drink and drive, you lose.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:17:23 PM EDT

[#15]

This is a load of Mulefritters!!!

"Alcohol in the lungs"

Think gasseous byproduct of the body processing alcohol that is emmited constantly, hyperventilating all ya want, at the same rate!!!

Nope!

The only way off the hook is to drink at home, and stay the hell off of the road!

What a Doofus!
S-28

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:18:44 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I hope this works for you in FL, but in WI it will get you a refusal.

The on amount of breath being sampled being a major factor in the level of alcohol measured seems skewed.

I have had individuals submit to the intoximeter test, then request a second test (blood), if anything, the intoximeter will give a lower reading than that of a blood test.

In addition, the intoximeter requires two samples of breath that must be within .02 g/l or the test will not be valid, the machine further compensates and uses the lower of the two readings as the test result.

For all who follow the articles advice ( and there is some truly bizarre shit in there) good luck.

My advice is drink all you want, just don't drive.

Even better, for WI just get the blood sample. You can then bitch and moan about the tech may have used isopropyl alcohol instead of iodine (or the antiseptic in the legal BAC kit). Nevermind the fact that they are two diff. types and the lab doesn't measure isopropyl alcohol.

You drink and drive, you lose.

You drink and drive, you lose

HEY NOW, WISDOT will scream if you steal their material !!!

YDYDYL program doesnt start until October (I think) !

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:19:10 PM EDT

[#17]

Over the urinals in one of the local bars hangs a poster from a lawyer. It states.."If you drink, drive slow, AND It's your right not to blow (yeah, i know there's a joke in there somewhere

) Basically, it states it's your right to refuse a breathalizer test. I'm not sure if thats true or not, i'm not the shady lawyer. If I have a few, the wifey drives.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:21:01 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

For many people it only takes one or two beers to go over the limit.

If they are 60 lbs, on an empty stomach, and having 32 oz drinks, sure.

Not even. I know a girl that had two and blew over the limit(but only just). She is petite but over 100 pounds.

My point is this isn't for people that are totally smashed. If you are bad enough that you can't follow two steps a cop is definitely going to know your smashed with or without the Breathalyzer. If you were that bad, even if you did blow below the limit I doubt you would get away with it.

I am not saying I think it is at all ok to drive if you are at all worried about being over the limit. Just that everyone saying there is no way you are going to remember the steps when you are drunk..well no kidding. This is not intended for anyone that is that drunk.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:22:28 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Over the urinals in one of the local bars hangs a poster from a lawyer. It states.."If you drink, drive slow, AND It's your right not to blow (yeah, i know there's a joke in there somewhere

) Basically, it states it's your right to refuse a breathalizer test. I'm not sure if thats true or not, i'm not the shady lawyer. If I have a few, the wifey drives.

In WI, you can refuse on your first offense. After your 1st conviction you still have the right to refuse the test, however we then take your blood whether you consent or not!

(P.S. that really gets the drunks riled up!)

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:24:27 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Over the urinals in one of the local bars hangs a poster from a lawyer. It states.."If you drink, drive slow, AND It's your right not to blow (yeah, i know there's a joke in there somewhere

) Basically, it states it's your right to refuse a breathalizer test. I'm not sure if thats true or not, i'm not the shady lawyer. If I have a few, the wifey drives.

In WI, you can refuse on your first offense. After your 1st conviction you still have the right to refuse the test, however we then take your blood whether you consent or not!

(P.S. that really gets the drunks riled up!)

My soon to be cousin in law got busted for his fourth time. He refused and they told him they were going to give him a blood test. He threw a tantrum and started goose stepping up and down the side of the road yelling "Heil Hitler!"

Fyi, he got locked up for a long time after that one and hasn't touched alcohol for over 2 years since then.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:28:44 PM EDT

[#21]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
I hope this works for you in FL, but in WI it will get you a refusal.

The on amount of breath being sampled being a major factor in the level of alcohol measured seems skewed.

I have had individuals submit to the intoximeter test, then request a second test (blood), if anything, the intoximeter will give a lower reading than that of a blood test.

In addition, the intoximeter requires two samples of breath that must be within .02 g/l or the test will not be valid, the machine further compensates and uses the lower of the two readings as the test result.

For all who follow the articles advice ( and there is some truly bizarre shit in there) good luck.

My advice is drink all you want, just don't drive.

Even better, for WI just get the blood sample. You can then bitch and moan about the tech may have used isopropyl alcohol instead of iodine (or the antiseptic in the legal BAC kit). Nevermind the fact that they are two diff. types and the lab doesn't measure isopropyl alcohol.

You drink and drive, you lose.

You drink and drive, you lose

HEY NOW, WISDOT will scream if you steal their material !!! hink)

I thought I heard that somewhere. Eh, they're a gov agency we can you them...they use us.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:30:19 PM EDT

[#22]

why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:30:36 PM EDT

[#23]

It looks like the author of the original article has taken some scientific truth and stretched it.

Examining Variables Associated with Sampling for Breath Alcohol Analysis

Hyperventilation and breath holding respectively decreased and increased the calculated relative values. Furthermore, they also respectively decreased and increased the measured exhaled breath temperature and the actual final BAC reading. Data on paired normal-hyperventilation deliveries and paired normal-breath hold deliveries are provided in Table 2. Under these test conditions, the effect of hyperventilation was more pronounced than that of breath holding in that the BAC and temperaure alterations were of greater magnitude.

Table 2

(Table 2 shows Hyperventilation dropping BAC readings avg. 9.4% w/temp decrease of 0.8C and Holding Breath increasing BAC an avg. of 4.5% and temp increasing 0.4C)

Paper on breath tests by Pharmacist/Lawyer

3. Factors that affect the partition ratio.

Some factors that affect the partition-ratio, such as the effect of temperature, may be obvious, even to a non-scientist. There are others that are not so apparent. These factors can either increase or decrease the actual BAC.

a. Effect of Temperature: The widely used partition blood-to-air partition ratio of 2100 is based on a normal body temperature of 98.6 0F. A higher body temperature of the individual will overestimate the actual BAC because of the higher volatility (or vapor pressure) of liquids like alcohol at a higher temperature. An elevation in body temperature of 1 0C (1.8 0F) results in a 7% higher value in the result. Therefore, a person with a body temperature of 100.4 0F and with an actual blood alcohol of 0.0935 % will register a value of 0.10 % by the breath test. As can be seen from this hypothetical example, a small difference in body temperature can make the difference of guilt or innocence of drunk driving in defendants with a BAC close to the legal limit. This widely accepted ratio is also based on the assumption that the average temperature of exhaled air is 93.20 F.

b. Atmospheric Pressure: There is little evidence to support the belief that the partition ratio is affected by atmospheric (barometric) pressure. Breathalyzer tests conducted at altitudes of 5000 feet and 10000 feet essentially gave the same results. This is expected based on scientific principles of gases.

c. Cellular Composition of Blood: Blood contains suspended cells (e.g. red and white cells) and proteins, and is therefore only a partial liquid. The partition ratio of 2100 is based on a average hematocrit (the cell volume of blood) of 47%; hematocrit values range from 42 to 52 % in males and 37 to 47 % in females. Therefore, a person with a lower hematocrit will have falsely elevated blood alcohol based on a breath test; this variability has been estimated to be relatively small, ranging from - 2 to + 5 %.

Since alcohol freely diffuses into cells but not into cellular membranes, the subtle point to be aware of is the variability in volume of the cell debris (i.e. volume of cell membranes after cells are analyzed), and not the actual hematocrit that is responsible for the reported variability. Understandably, a higher hematocrit value represents a higher value of cell debris. The mean value from several studies show that debris can account for about 16% of the volume of blood. For example, 0. 119 mg % (in serum) is equivalent to 0.10% of BAC. Fitzgerald and Hume, Intoxication Test Evidence: Criminal and Civil, ' 4:26 at 152 (1987).

d. Physical Activity and hyperventilation: Exercise can underestimate blood alcohol values. In one study BACs of subjects before and after running up a flight of stairs decreased 11 to 14 % after one trip and 22-25 % after two such trips. In a another study, a 15% decrease in blood alcohol was reported in subjects following vigorous exercise or hyperventilation.

e. Changes in water content of expired air: Water, present in the form of vapor, in expired air will condense into the liquid form with a lowering of temperature. Air exhaled into the tubes of a breath test device, such as the Breathalyzer, is assumed to be saturated with water at about 93.20 F . Decreases in this temperature can result in an underestimation of reported BAC due to condensation of water and the subsequent removal of alcohol from the expired air. One study showed that when the mouthpiece of the breath test instrument was kept at 23 0C, there was an average decrease in temperature of exhaled air by 1.6 0C.

f. Radio Frequency Interference (RFI): Andre Moenssens, et al., Scientific Evidence in Civil and Criminal Cases ' 3.09 at 204 (4th ed. 1995). This interference describes the effect of an electronic instrument on a radio wave or current that it is not designed to pick up. If a particular Breathalyzer as an electronic instrument were susceptible to RFI, then the measurement of light distance obtained when the operator balances the meter might not be an accurate indication of the amount of alcohol in the breath sample. Instead, the light distance might reflect, in part, a deflection in the meter needle caused by a stray current induced by radio waves in the surrounding environment

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:34:33 PM EDT

[#24]

I will limit myself to two drinks if I am going to be driving home or elsewhere. A DUI will fuck up your life something awful. The DUI laws have been screwed up since the MADD mommies started poking their noses into it. .08 is too low for a man, maybe .10 is more reasonable. But thanks to Big brother states can't raise the limit, less they lose funds.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:39:45 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have seen Breath machine operators give people a "refusal" when they did not blow long enough......

but that was here in Oklahoma........

Was the test videotapes and what was the outcome in court ?

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:39:54 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:problem is, you can still get a wet neg driving if your under the limit. while i agree with the cab idea, who hasent stop by and had a few beers with a friend. That should not be against the law to drink if your under the limit. Most cops don't give a shit, its just a quota

Quota?? Are you seriously that stuck on internet legend?

There is No Quota for drunks... you either are drunk or you are not. BTW, your "few beers" probably would put most people over the legal limit.

As for the OP's cheesy article, a breath test is 5-7% LOWER blood alcohol content than a blood test. Someone want to try and compare that lovely FACT to the BS someone called fact?

BTW, a 24 hour course has to be the longest course I have EVER heard for am operator. There is something fishy with his claim. Our class is 4 hours and expires every 4 years.

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:40:47 PM EDT

[#27]

I may have missed it, but was there a link to the article provided anywhere?

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:48:41 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I will limit myself to two drinks if I am going to be driving home or elsewhere. A DUI will fuck up your life something awful. The DUI laws have been screwed up since the MADD mommies started poking their noses into it. .08 is too low for a man, maybe .10 is more reasonable. But thanks to Big brother states can't raise the limit, less they lose funds.

Are you in the AF?

Posted: 5/3/2008 8:54:54 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I will limit myself to two drinks if I am going to be driving home or elsewhere. A DUI will fuck up your life something awful. The DUI laws have been screwed up since the MADD mommies started poking their noses into it. .08 is too low for a man, maybe .10 is more reasonable. But thanks to Big brother states can't raise the limit, less they lose funds.

Are you in the AF?

no

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:04:48 PM EDT

[#30]

OK, a guy weighs 200 lb. Has two beers with dinner. He gets pulled over a few miles from the restaurant. Is he likely to pass or fail the breath test?

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:06:05 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If somebody tells me I might not be arrested if I can pass the test, sign me up for the test, because I know they're not going to let me out if I refuse the test.

Yep.

Preliminary breath test is the last step in the DUI investigation phase. The cop has already observed your driving, noted the objective symptoms of intoxication, taken your statement and recorded the standardized field sobriety tests. If you refuse to take the preliminary breath test he is probably going to arrest you anyway. If you take it and blow a .08% or higher you will probably be arrested. If you blow a .07 or below you will probably not be arrested. In fact many of the cops I work with will not take anything below a .10% because those .08 or .09's in the field might be a .07 by the time you get the blood sample and they dont want the DA refusal in their jackets. Where i work the preliminary breath test although voluntary is usually a benifit to the suspect because the results may convince the cop to throw you back so he can look for a bigger fish.

no test sure you get arrested but it is then easier for your atorney to beat.....or at least to get a defered sentence here in Oklahoma...but if you have not been drinking take the test

In Indiana refusal of a chemical test is an automatic 1 year license suspension. The judges here usually give musch less than that for a conviction with a valid test.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:06:29 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

For many people it only takes one or two beers to go over the limit.

False. There are plenty of good BAC calculators online. Check one out.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:07:17 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blow, don't blow, play games, act a fool, whatever.

Maybe put a little more effort into not drinking and driving in the first place.

Pretty much sums it all up right there. If you drink more than a couple beers then call a cab.

For many people it only takes one or two beers to go over the limit.

False. There are plenty of good BAC calculators online. Check one out.

Do you honestly believe that everyone's body reacts in exactly the same way to alcohol?

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:08:56 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The last 1% of your breath contains the highest alcohol concentration of your entire breath. By telling you to blow until you are out of breath, and measuring only the last 1%, the standard instructions for the Intoxilyzer can overestimate your breath alcohol by as much as 400%.

I'm no expert. But I have made over 200 DUI arrests and have never had the blood test results come back 400% different than the preliminary breath test. In fact I'm impressed with the accuracy of the portable breath test device we use as the results are consistantly withen .01% of the blood test conducted an hour later.

To clarify here (since you use 400%, a relative measure meaning 4 times, and 0.01%, an absolute measure of BAC, in parallel), I assume you mean that the BAC reported by the blood test was within .0001 grams alcohol / grams blood of the result from the breath test.

400% was the claim made by the article. as in a true BAC of .10% being measured as .40% which would acctually kill most people.

In my experiance is someone blows a .10% PAS their blood comes back between a .09 & .11. The PAS is that accurate.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:10:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
OK, a guy weighs 200 lb. Has two beers with dinner. He gets pulled over a few miles from the restaurant. Is he likely to pass or fail the breath test?

The average is .02 per beer.... So, unless he is 80 lbs., I doubt it.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:10:45 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Basically, yes, they are allowed (Don't know the law where you are, but AFAIK here you sign an agreement to give a LEO your blood, breath, and/or urine on demand when you get your driver's license). Someone with some actual experience can better explain it for you than I can, but the short answer is yes, they can, and yes, it's not only admissible in court, it's actually a standard procedure.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:13:29 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Yes.

Your blood contains evidence of the crime (DUI). Your body is destroying the evidence by processing the alcohol in your blood (destruction of evidence exigency). So yes the police can force a blood test to prevent the destruction of that evidence.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:13:53 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When I worked at the jail here our Intoxilyzer gave up the ghost and the state brought us a Datamaster. Several guys who had extremely accurate PBT's started questioning it when they were getting Datamaster readings consistently lower than their PBT's. We asked the technician about it and were told that the Datamaster is set 0.02% in favor of the defendant, so a Datamaster reading of 0.08 was actually 0.10. I've never understood the rationale behind refusing a breath test. If somebody tells me I might not be arrested if I can pass the test, sign me up for the test, because I know they're not going to let me out if I refuse the test.

0.2 is probably it's maragin of error. If it is 0.10, but the machine has a maragin of error of 0.2, then you can really only prove that it is at least 0.80, but could also be 0.12 as well.

It's the same with radar guns IIRC.

Not in this case. It's not margin of error, they intentionally set it to read 0.02% low. I'm guessing it's to give the suspect more of a chance when they're on the bubble. I rarely saw it make a difference anyway. back when the limit was 0.10 you could still arrest from 0.05 up as long as you could prove impairment, however I did see a couple people get to take a cab home if they were cooperative or were stopped for an equipment violation (taillight/headlight out, etc) and tested lower than 0.10 rather than being stopped for erratic driving or being involved in a wreck.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:14:39 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
OK, a guy weighs 200 lb. Has two beers with dinner. He gets pulled over a few miles from the restaurant. Is he likely to pass or fail the breath test?

He might be a .02. No way he will be anywhere near a .08

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:15:52 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Yes, in WI at least, if you have one prior OWI conviction we will request you submit to a test. If you refuse then we WILL take blood. As a 2nd offense OWI is a crime, and the alcohol in your blood is evidence we will seize you blood. A warrant is not necessary as there are exigent circumstances involved: Your body is metabolizing the alcohol in your blood That means evidence is being destroyed and thus it can be seized without having to apply for a warrant.

We will hold you down and get a sample from you. Sorry if it sounds un- American, but for too many, the American thing to do is get pissed up and drive.

Again, nothing against drinking, just don't drive !

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:26:23 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Absolutely. PROBABLE CAUSE to believe you have operated a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The only times I've seen it go to that extreme have been in wrecks with serious bodily injury or fatalities involved but yes, it's entirely possible. In cases where the driver is injured it's not even that difficult. Most of the time the hospital will draw blood and get a BAC for their own purposes. All it takes at that point is a release signed by the patient or a subpoena if they refuse.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:30:00 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
OWI is a crime, and the alcohol in your blood is evidence we will seize you blood. A warrant is not necessary as there are exigent circumstances involved: Your body is metabolizing the alcohol in your blood That means evidence is being destroyed and thus it can be seized without having to apply for a warrant.

We will hold you down and get a sample from you.

Thats how we do it.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:31:23 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Absolutely. PROBABLE CAUSE to believe you have operated a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. If you refuse to have blood drawn all it takes is a phone call to the prosecutor who calls the judge and a warrant is issued for a sample to be taken. The only times I've seen it go to that extreme have been in wrecks with serious bodily injury or fatalities involved but yes, it's entirely possible. In cases where the driver is injured it's not even that difficult. Most of the time the hospital will draw blood and get a BAC for their own purposes. All it takes at that point is a release signed by the patient or a subpoena if they refuse.

Around here

PC

and
DUI #3 or above
Injury By DUI
Great Bodily Harm by DUI
Homicide by DUI

The blood will be siezed as evidence.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:31:29 PM EDT

[#44]

Advice from any lawyer, cop, judge: Don't blow, don't do the FST.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:33:56 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Advice from any lawyer, cop, judge: ~~Don't blow, don't do the FST.~~ don't drink and drive.

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:42:06 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I will limit myself to two drinks if I am going to be driving home or elsewhere. A DUI will fuck up your life something awful. The DUI laws have been screwed up since the MADD mommies started poking their noses into it. .08 is too low for a man, maybe .10 is more reasonable. But thanks to Big brother states can't raise the limit, less they lose funds.

Given that drunk-on-duty for the military & the FAA's OWI standard are both in the area of 0.05...

One could say that motorists have it easy....

8 hrs bottle to throttle, anyone?

Posted: 5/3/2008 9:43:45 PM EDT

[#47]

I hope you didn't write that, because it is so full of fail is it ridiculous.

Posted: 5/3/2008 10:00:30 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
why all the talk of blood test? They have no right to take your blood do they? Theres no way I can see that as being admissible in court or within someones rights to be VOIDED.

Can someone explain this? can police take your blood by force? that seems unamerican

Absolutely. PROBABLE CAUSE to believe you have operated a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The only times I've seen it go to that extreme have been in wrecks with serious bodily injury or fatalities involved but yes, it's entirely possible. In cases where the driver is injured it's not even that difficult. Most of the time the hospital will draw blood and get a BAC for their own purposes. All it takes at that point is a release signed by the patient or a subpoena if they refuse.

The hospital sample lacks the standard to meet the evidence requirements. We have them draw the blood, but it ALWAYS goes to one of our contract labs. I have never seen a hospital test be used in any court proceeding except where the suspect died at the hospital and certain chemicals levels vary as the body degrades.

Quoted:
Advice from any lawyer, cop, judge: Don't blow, don't do the FST.

Super advice... the lack of a FST makes it easy, since the defense has a very lil' amount of evidence to try and toss. I like it when the refuse FSTs. I offer a PBT and a refusal means you will now submit a sample-state law.

And, to top it all off, we are an implied consent state. Refuse to blow and blood WILL be taken. By force or with your cooperation. We will get a sample for a DUI.

Posted: 5/3/2008 10:03:34 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
It looks like the author of the original article has taken some scientific truth and stretched it.

Examining Variables Associated with Sampling for Breath Alcohol Analysis

Hyperventilation and breath holding respectively decreased and increased the calculated relative values. Furthermore, they also respectively decreased and increased the measured exhaled breath temperature and the actual final BAC reading. Data on paired normal-hyperventilation deliveries and paired normal-breath hold deliveries are provided in Table 2. Under these test conditions, the effect of hyperventilation was more pronounced than that of breath holding in that the BAC and temperaure alterations were of greater magnitude.

Table 2

(Table 2 shows Hyperventilation dropping BAC readings avg. 9.4% w/temp decrease of 0.8C and Holding Breath increasing BAC an avg. of 4.5% and temp increasing 0.4C)

Paper on breath tests by Pharmacist/Lawyer

3. Factors that affect the partition ratio.

Some factors that affect the partition-ratio, such as the effect of temperature, may be obvious, even to a non-scientist. There are others that are not so apparent. These factors can either increase or decrease the actual BAC.

a. Effect of Temperature: The widely used partition blood-to-air partition ratio of 2100 is based on a normal body temperature of 98.6 0F. A higher body temperature of the individual will overestimate the actual BAC because of the higher volatility (or vapor pressure) of liquids like alcohol at a higher temperature. An elevation in body temperature of 1 0C (1.8 0F) results in a 7% higher value in the result. Therefore, a person with a body temperature of 100.4 0F and with an actual blood alcohol of 0.0935 % will register a value of 0.10 % by the breath test. As can be seen from this hypothetical example, a small difference in body temperature can make the difference of guilt or innocence of drunk driving in defendants with a BAC close to the legal limit. This widely accepted ratio is also based on the assumption that the average temperature of exhaled air is 93.20 F.

b. Atmospheric Pressure: There is little evidence to support the belief that the partition ratio is affected by atmospheric (barometric) pressure. Breathalyzer tests conducted at altitudes of 5000 feet and 10000 feet essentially gave the same results. This is expected based on scientific principles of gases.

c. Cellular Composition of Blood: Blood contains suspended cells (e.g. red and white cells) and proteins, and is therefore only a partial liquid. The partition ratio of 2100 is based on a average hematocrit (the cell volume of blood) of 47%; hematocrit values range from 42 to 52 % in males and 37 to 47 % in females. Therefore, a person with a lower hematocrit will have falsely elevated blood alcohol based on a breath test; this variability has been estimated to be relatively small, ranging from - 2 to + 5 %.

Since alcohol freely diffuses into cells but not into cellular membranes, the subtle point to be aware of is the variability in volume of the cell debris (i.e. volume of cell membranes after cells are analyzed), and not the actual hematocrit that is responsible for the reported variability. Understandably, a higher hematocrit value represents a higher value of cell debris. The mean value from several studies show that debris can account for about 16% of the volume of blood. For example, 0. 119 mg % (in serum) is equivalent to 0.10% of BAC. Fitzgerald and Hume, Intoxication Test Evidence: Criminal and Civil, ' 4:26 at 152 (1987).

d. Physical Activity and hyperventilation: Exercise can underestimate blood alcohol values. In one study BACs of subjects before and after running up a flight of stairs decreased 11 to 14 % after one trip and 22-25 % after two such trips. In a another study, a 15% decrease in blood alcohol was reported in subjects following vigorous exercise or hyperventilation.

e. Changes in water content of expired air: Water, present in the form of vapor, in expired air will condense into the liquid form with a lowering of temperature. Air exhaled into the tubes of a breath test device, such as the Breathalyzer, is assumed to be saturated with water at about 93.20 F . Decreases in this temperature can result in an underestimation of reported BAC due to condensation of water and the subsequent removal of alcohol from the expired air. One study showed that when the mouthpiece of the breath test instrument was kept at 23 0C, there was an average decrease in temperature of exhaled air by 1.6 0C.

f. Radio Frequency Interference (RFI): Andre Moenssens, et al., Scientific Evidence in Civil and Criminal Cases ' 3.09 at 204 (4th ed. 1995). This interference describes the effect of an electronic instrument on a radio wave or current that it is not designed to pick up. If a particular Breathalyzer as an electronic instrument were susceptible to RFI, then the measurement of light distance obtained when the operator balances the meter might not be an accurate indication of the amount of alcohol in the breath sample. Instead, the light distance might reflect, in part, a deflection in the meter needle caused by a stray current induced by radio waves in the surrounding environment

Can you really make the determination that the author stretched the truth from the quoted articles?

I see standard deviation of about 8% of the positive effects of hyperventilation pre-test between the two sources you showed. The first source says 9.4% benefit. The second source cites three other experiments with one showing a 25% benefit. That test that showed a 25% benefit may have had a high out-lier that the author jumped on to further drive his point home.

The author also wrote "you will reduce your breath alcohol by as much as 55%". The wording does not indicate that one will reduce breath alcohol by 55% each and every time. Most likely the author is picking up on the out-liers to make the effects sound more powerful.

In addition, neither of the articles mentioned provide blowing 1/2 lung capacity concomitantly with hyperventilation as an experiment scenario.

Posted: 5/3/2008 10:22:55 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Advice from any lawyer, cop, judge: Don't blow, don't do the FST.

If you are drunk. But then we already will know and you get arrested anyway.

If you aren't drunk then do them.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - STOP Breathalyzer Abuse: Remember the 3-2 Rule. (Page 2 of 4)

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