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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:06:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.260 started life as a .308 wildcat, so AR-10 pattern. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:08:41 AM EDT
[#2]
bring back the Swede 6.5×55mm
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:10:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Seems like either would be a good choice with both their parent cases being the 308 and they have near identical performance.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:10:38 AM EDT
[#4]
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Yep, they are excellent for long range accuracy. Of course, that isn't really the only concern for a military cartridge, now is it? Doesn't do much good to hit a target at long range and not have enough energy to kill. So while the accuracy potential is higher, the lethality is not, so why throw away hundreds of millions of dollars to make the change? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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fad caliber. lets jump on the band wagon.  Go check out some ballistics charts comparing the two. The 6.5 has a higher bc bullet and retains more energy down range than the 308 per comparible bullet weights. There is a reason the 308 guys call it a cheater caliber. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:12:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Should also replace the 223 with 6.5 grendel
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:15:27 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should also replace the 223 with 6.5 grendel |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:18:37 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no engineer, but I know an M240 barrel can be swapped out pretty quickly. And that's pretty much all that's involved. As for penetration... how much would be lost by going to slightly lighter (but with better sectional density) bullets going a little faster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder how easily our current stock of 240s could be rechambered for 6.5. Hope the engineers here can enlighten us. Logistics aside. I doubt 7.62 NATO is going anywhere as the military will probably want to keep the penatration it provides. As for penetration... how much would be lost by going to slightly lighter (but with better sectional density) bullets going a little faster? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:27:40 AM EDT
[#8]
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1,000+ yard small varmint / small game shots? Yeah I'm calling bullshit on that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Looking at BC and SD of 6.5 vs 308 I can definitely see how you would come to that conclusion. Having seen ground squirrels and rock chucks shot at 1k plus yards with the 6.5 and only being slightly dazed by it even when shot in the face I agree that it's not a killing round. Perhaps your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. I suggest you tap-rack-bang your head. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:27:47 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1,000+ yard small varmint / small game shots? Yeah I'm calling bullshit on that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Looking at BC and SD of 6.5 vs 308 I can definitely see how you would come to that conclusion. Having seen ground squirrels and rock chucks shot at 1k plus yards with the 6.5 and only being slightly dazed by it even when shot in the face I agree that it's not a killing round. 1) the guy who successfully shot multiple chucks at over a thousand yards is a superhuman marksman with the world's most accurate rifle. 2) the Chuck that has taken a round of 6.5 in the face and simply walks it off has an alter ego known as Clark Kent. 3) the tracker who can find a chuck that's been shot over 1000 yards away is remarkable, especially one that's still walking around uninjured. 4) anyone who can determine from over 1000 yards away that a groundhog has been, in fact, shot in the face but remains uninjured is a superhuman. 5) I love GD. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:32:26 AM EDT
[#10]
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Given that 260 and 6.5 are ballistic cousins of each other, it's going to come down to cost. Although tooling up a small line at Lake City for either of those rounds wouldn't cost much in theory, by military standards. With precision ammunition so much of it's efficacy is in its consistency. I really hope they get this right if the military makes a big switch. This decision comes down to which of two nearly identical cases performs better. And the Army will be following shortly behind. 6.5, 300 Win Mag, and 338 Norma are the future for the US mil snipers. Although Snipers are taking the lead there will be more wide spread use of 6.5 and 338 in the future. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:38:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.260 carbine/.260 LMG/.260 sniper. .260 everything. Put Americans to work/buy American. Change everything. Make billions of rounds. Force NATO to adopt new standard round if we are to continue disproportionately buoying NATO. Export sales. MAGA. What's your plan for our massive stockpiles of existing weapons and small arms ammunition? You could subtitle your plan: How to waste defense funds on minuscule performance increases. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:41:17 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think 6.5 Grendel would be better. Does .260 Remington fit in a standard AR-15 pattern or does it need AR-10 dimensions? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:53:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5x55 or 7mm08 308 always should have been 7/08. Creed just edges it these days with the new bullets but with half the barrel life. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:56:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at BC and SD of 6.5 vs 308 I can definitely see how you would come to that conclusion. Having seen ground squirrels and rock chucks shot at 1k plus yards with the 6.5 and only being slightly dazed by it even when shot in the face I agree that it's not a killing round. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, they are excellent for long range accuracy. Of course, that isn't really the only concern for a military cartridge, now is it? Doesn't do much good to hit a target at long range and not have enough energy to kill. So while the accuracy potential is higher, the lethality is not, so why throw away hundreds of millions of dollars to make the change? Look up the ballistics tables for M118Lr and a 130 or 140 gr 260 load. Guess which one has about 50% more energy at 1000 yards, |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 8:59:10 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't see that happening with the millions of magazines that the military owns that wont work reliably with the Grendel round. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Should also replace the 223 with 6.5 grendel Buying all new magazines is far down on the lists of costs involved with replacing a cartridge. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:08:15 AM EDT
[#16]
I remember when the mill was looking at the 6.5 Grendel when it was a fad.
This too, shall pass. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:12:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how easily our current stock of 240s could be rechambered for 6.5. Hope the engineers here can enlighten us. Logistics aside. I doubt 7.62 NATO is going anywhere as the military will probably want to keep the penatration it provides. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:12:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Didn't SOCOM just pick the .300 Norma Magnum as the new ASR round?
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:16:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't SOCOM just pick the .300 Norma Magnum as the new ASR round? I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:19:31 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love GD, it gives a place for people who have no idea what they are talking about to spew bullshit. Look up the ballistics tables for M118Lr and a 130 or 140 gr 260 load. Guess which one has about 50% more energy at 1000 yards, Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, they are excellent for long range accuracy. Of course, that isn't really the only concern for a military cartridge, now is it? Doesn't do much good to hit a target at long range and not have enough energy to kill. So while the accuracy potential is higher, the lethality is not, so why throw away hundreds of millions of dollars to make the change? Look up the ballistics tables for M118Lr and a 130 or 140 gr 260 load. Guess which one has about 50% more energy at 1000 yards, A R C A S M |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:19:31 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, and the fad happened about a century ago. Then everyone got stupid and jumped off of the band wagon to sacrifice about 5-6 decades of small arms and cartridge design on the altar of the .30 rifle bullet.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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fad caliber. lets jump on the band wagon. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:21:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Ah, they're looking for something for the SASS (reading is fundamental)...
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:22:13 AM EDT
[#23]
260 Rem vs 6.5 Creedmoor
What's the optimum barrel length for each 23-24" ? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:30:25 AM EDT
[#24]
they can ditch 7.62 nato...hell nato can ditch the 7.62, as long as they have to surplus out all the old ammo to US citizens, , I don't give a damn what they decide to go to.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:33:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were looking at the .300NM to replace the .300WM. I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Didn't SOCOM just pick the .300 Norma Magnum as the new ASR round? I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:59:32 AM EDT
[#26]
SOCOM wants to replace the SCAR. Glad they've seen the light.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:00:56 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.260 carbine/.260 LMG/.260 sniper. .260 everything. Put Americans to work/buy American. Change everything. Make billions of rounds. Force NATO to adopt new standard round if we are to continue disproportionately buoying NATO. Export sales. MAGA. Doesn't .260 burn out barrels? Or is that a different intermediary caliber? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:15:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were looking at the .300NM to replace the .300WM. I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Didn't SOCOM just pick the .300 Norma Magnum as the new ASR round? I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:17:29 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SOCOM wants to replace the SCAR. Glad they've seen the light. I love when people just make shit up. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:20:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The semi auto sniper in question is the M110. SCAR isn't going anywhere. I love when people just make shit up. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:22:59 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.260 carbine/.260 LMG/.260 sniper. .260 everything. Put Americans to work/buy American. Change everything. Make billions of rounds. Force NATO to adopt new standard round if we are to continue disproportionately buoying NATO. Export sales. MAGA. 
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:23:13 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Socom isn't looking for a MG because of the cost to performance increase ratio. GD always has to take it to the next level of uninformed silliness. A new MG is a major undertaking where the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Minor small arms performance increases that delight gun nerds are rather unimportant on the combined arms battlefield where there are many options for long range fires beyond small arms alone. CAS, Tube arty, mortars, javelin, tripod MGs, etc Such a project would mean at minimum a new feed tray, top cover, feed pawls, operating springs and a new disengrating belt link design as well as the new ammo which would be needed in ball and tracers a minimum. AP and API would also be desirable. Everyone one of these subsystems has to be tested independtly and with one another.
It actually would be interesting just out of curiosity to see what all would be involved in swapping a 240 over to .260R... it's the same case isn't it? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:37:35 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh hell, I know that... I just got wound up thinking about how much the ~.30cal rifle/MG cartridge has screwed up small arms, and I get carried away.
It actually would be interesting just out of curiosity to see what all would be involved in swapping a 240 over to .260R... it's the same case isn't it? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:38:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're calling BS on the distance but not the "only being slightly dazed" part? Perhaps your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. I suggest you tap-rack-bang your head. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Looking at BC and SD of 6.5 vs 308 I can definitely see how you would come to that conclusion. Having seen ground squirrels and rock chucks shot at 1k plus yards with the 6.5 and only being slightly dazed by it even when shot in the face I agree that it's not a killing round. Perhaps your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. I suggest you tap-rack-bang your head. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:38:51 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryGood read, thanks.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:39:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Just when I thought this thread couldn't possibly get more any more retarded, Joglee showed up.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:40:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were looking at the .300NM to replace the .300WM. I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:41:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ironically, the easiest small arm in inventory to convert over is the m14. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:41:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just when I thought this thread couldn't possibly get more any more retarded, Joglee showed up. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:41:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Besides the performance gains, it's also a cost/logistics savings, because now they only need 2 bolt faces instead of three. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Didn't SOCOM just pick the .300 Norma Magnum as the new ASR round? I don't see the cost in performance for a marginally 10% gain over the .300WM..... 10% isn't much when you also include the shooter and conditions. They could just go with .338 Lapa and .308 and eliminate the .300 magnums and probably come out even or cheaper. 2 bolt heads, 2 mags, 2 longer lasting barrels. .338 for long range and .308 for interchangeability with other weapon systems |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:42:37 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Military is already in the process of replacing all their magazines with ones compatible with M855A1. Buying all new magazines is far down on the lists of costs involved with replacing a cartridge. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:45:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Check out the 6mm Lee Navy from 1895. Long 112 grain bullet at 2600 fps. Pretty much the same idea getting kicked around 120 years later.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:46:00 AM EDT
[#43]
Sniper rifles OK. But as a taxpayer I think the .308 in an MG kills things dead enough. We don't need to retool the whole damned thing right now.
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:46:19 AM EDT
[#44]
Hmm....I wonder if Mr LaRue's recent releasing of a .260 was a coincidence
Choose wisely |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:46:37 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look, everyone knows the SCAR sucks. Let's replace it with a 6.5 AR. 
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:47:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Off the top of my head DPMS and JP make 260 and 6.5 CM AR-pattern semis. Wilson has a 6.5 CM (and 338 Federal heh).
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:48:30 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1,000+ yard small varmint / small game shots? Yeah I'm calling bullshit on that. A friend was at a range in CO with 10th SFG once to help his friend Malcolm demonstrate the AI AWM in 338LM. They got bored with the targets and started shooting prairie dogs in the impact at 1100 yards. This earned them a long asschewing from a CPT. At some point Mr. Cooper asked "are you quite finished? The real question isn't why am I shooting them, it's why can't your men." |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:48:47 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5 Creedmor has a sharper shoulder than the 260, I'm curious how it would feed in a semi auto application. 260 Rem would be pretty much plug and play in a bolt or semi rifle. |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:49:40 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, they are excellent for long range accuracy. Of course, that isn't really the only concern for a military cartridge, now is it? Doesn't do much good to hit a target at long range and not have enough energy to kill. So while the accuracy potential is higher, the lethality is not, so why throw away hundreds of millions of dollars to make the change? |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 10:50:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you trying to summon him? |
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