[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 86 of 142)
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Quoted: Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber. That's essentially a written admission of the problem. No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. |
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I think it's a bit of semantics at play. While the poster you quoted went beyond what Sig actually said, Sig definitely did rewrite the manual to encourage empty chamber carry. That wasn't there in Rev 14, which I linked earlier in the thread. While everyone likes to argue the legalities of what that means in the court of law (I tend to think lawyers are going to jump at it; unsure of what judges and juries will say), in the court of public opinion, I think that reads as implicit admission of the problem. |
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Quoted:No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. Quoted:No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing.  I don't see a recall (or "voluntary upgrade") unless someone actually pins down a cause. Stoegers right, it happening is evidence that it's happening, but nobody can yet say the why or why those P320s and not other P320s. "Something's Fucky" won't do it. The P320 being absolutely dead on the commercial market should do something though. Quoted:I think it's a bit of semantics at play. While the poster you quoted went beyond what Sig actually said, Sig definitely did rewrite the manual to encourage empty chamber carry. That wasn't there in Rev 14, which I linked earlier in the thread. While everyone likes to argue the legalities of what that means in the court of law (I tend to think lawyers are going to jump at it; unsure of what judges and juries will say), in the court of public opinion, I think that reads as implicit admission of the problem. |
| What screws SIG is the fact that previous versions of the manual didn't say anything about an empty chamber. To change the manual in April 2025 to include a caution about a loaded chamber was either incredibly bad timing or yet another spectacularly horrendous management/legal decision. |
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Quoted: What screws SIG is the fact that previous versions of the manual didn't say anything about an empty chamber. To change the manual in April 2025 to include a caution about a loaded chamber was either incredibly bad timing or yet another spectacularly horrendous management/legal decision. This. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber. That's essentially a written admission of the problem. No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. From page 5 where it's in caps and bolded THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE. Then there's this gem on page 8 (bold is mine for emphasis) SIG SAUER firearms incorporate effective mechanical safeties. However, like any mechanical device, exposure to abusive conditions may harm these safety mechanisms and cause them to fail to work as designed. Do not subject the SIG SAUER firearm to any abusive handling. This includes the firearm being dropped, impact to the firearm, or the firearm being struck by another object. So they say that the gun is only truly safe when the chamber is empty, and that anything touching the gun may cause the safety mechanisms to fail... Why do you think that is? Why do you think they updated this manual to include this language, in the middle of the many ongoing shake awake holster pop claims and videos? |
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Quoted: From page 5 where it's in caps and bolded Then there's this gem on page 8 (bold is mine for emphasis) So they say that the gun is only truly safe when the chamber is empty, and that anything touching the gun may cause the safety mechanisms to fail... Why do you think that is? Why do you think they updated this manual to include this language, in the middle of the many ongoing shake awake holster pop claims and videos? FFS I KNOW what it says, I've read it. It doesn't say what you claimed. You wrote: "..Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber...." Which is utter bullshit. Now you copy and paste: "...THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE." If you think those statements are identical you need a dictionary. Damn. Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. I've never been a Sig fanboi and never will be (I own zero Sigs). But I recognize bullshit when I read it and you posted absolute bullshit. Sig and Ron Cohen deserve every bit of criticism the gun world can fling. The facts are bad enough without wholly and completely false information being included. The truth is enough. |
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Quoted: FFS I KNOW what it says, I've read it. It doesn't say what you claimed. You wrote: "..Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber...." Which is utter bullshit. Now you copy and paste: "...THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE." If you think those statements are identical you need a dictionary. Damn. Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. I've never been a Sig fanboi and never will be (I own zero Sigs). But I recognize bullshit when I read it and you posted absolute bullshit. Sig and Ron Cohen deserve every bit of criticism the gun world can fling. The facts are bad enough without wholly and completely false information being included. The truth is enough. Quoted: Quoted: From page 5 where it's in caps and bolded Then there's this gem on page 8 (bold is mine for emphasis) So they say that the gun is only truly safe when the chamber is empty, and that anything touching the gun may cause the safety mechanisms to fail... Why do you think that is? Why do you think they updated this manual to include this language, in the middle of the many ongoing shake awake holster pop claims and videos? FFS I KNOW what it says, I've read it. It doesn't say what you claimed. You wrote: "..Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber...." Which is utter bullshit. Now you copy and paste: "...THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE." If you think those statements are identical you need a dictionary. Damn. Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. I've never been a Sig fanboi and never will be (I own zero Sigs). But I recognize bullshit when I read it and you posted absolute bullshit. Sig and Ron Cohen deserve every bit of criticism the gun world can fling. The facts are bad enough without wholly and completely false information being included. The truth is enough. What I posted is just a concise summary of exactly what is happening and how anyone with an ounce of common sense understands what is happening. Have a good day in whatever alternate universe you are living in. |
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Quoted: FFS I KNOW what it says, I've read it. It doesn't say what you claimed. You wrote: "..Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber...." Which is utter bullshit. Now you copy and paste: "...THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE." If you think those statements are identical you need a dictionary. Damn. Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. I've never been a Sig fanboi and never will be (I own zero Sigs). But I recognize bullshit when I read it and you posted absolute bullshit. Sig and Ron Cohen deserve every bit of criticism the gun world can fling. The facts are bad enough without wholly and completely false information being included. The truth is enough. Quoted: Quoted: From page 5 where it's in caps and bolded Then there's this gem on page 8 (bold is mine for emphasis) So they say that the gun is only truly safe when the chamber is empty, and that anything touching the gun may cause the safety mechanisms to fail... Why do you think that is? Why do you think they updated this manual to include this language, in the middle of the many ongoing shake awake holster pop claims and videos? FFS I KNOW what it says, I've read it. It doesn't say what you claimed. You wrote: "..Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber...." Which is utter bullshit. Now you copy and paste: "...THE MOST EFFECTIVE SAFETY IS TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITHOUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, AND TO LOAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER ONLY WHEN READY TO FIRE." If you think those statements are identical you need a dictionary. Damn. Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. I've never been a Sig fanboi and never will be (I own zero Sigs). But I recognize bullshit when I read it and you posted absolute bullshit. Sig and Ron Cohen deserve every bit of criticism the gun world can fling. The facts are bad enough without wholly and completely false information being included. The truth is enough. They say that their pistol's safety mechanisms can fail if the gun is dropped or hit by something, and that the most effective safety is to carry with the chamber empty. That sure sounds like the only safe way to carry the pistol is with an empty chamber. |
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Quoted: What I posted is just a concise summary of exactly what is happening and how anyone with an ounce of common sense understands what is happening. Have a good day in whatever alternate universe you are living in. No, you didn't post a summary, much less a concise one. You posted your interpretation as if it were fact. It wasn't. As far as an alternate universe? I'm not the one posting imaginary facts from the 320 owners manual. 
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Quoted: Even an incident where an officer wrestling with a perp and the 320 UDs into bystanders will be national news. Quoted: Quoted: Racist sig 320 causing summer of love 2025 ... Great, now I have to fill out another possible bingo card slot. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber. That's essentially a written admission of the problem. No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. This was gone over in this thread in almost excruciating detail. Somehwere between page 54-55 and this page, I believe. I just don't recall when. But yes, sig DID change their manuals. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber. That's essentially a written admission of the problem. No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. Well they sort of did... they threw in a carefully worded disclaimer, added to the owners manual last year and updated the link on the Sig website... They changed the manual last year and added "The most effective safety is to carry your pistol without a round in the chamber, and to load a round in the chamber when ready to fire." That part was not in the 320 manual a couple years ago... it was a recent addition. So read that how you like, but as I read it, they put in a legal disclaimer saying "its not safe if its loaded"... |
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Quoted: Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. Big. Fucking. Deal. You're absolutely right. Multiple other gun manufacturers do have similar language in their manuals. And it is for lawyers. The difference is they had their disclaimers from the get go. None of them changed their manual in the midst of multiple lawsuits and investigations regarding the gun firing unintentionally. SIG did. So actually, it is a big deal. And it will be the next time SIG is under cross. |
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Quoted: You're absolutely right. Multiple other gun manufacturers do have similar language in their manuals. And it is for lawyers. The difference is they had their disclaimers from the get go. None of them changed their manual in the midst of multiple lawsuits and investigations regarding the gun firing unintentionally. SIG did. So actually, it is a big deal. And it will be the next time SIG is under cross. Quoted: Quoted: Multiple other gun manufacturers have nearly identical language in their owners manuals. Its lawyer language. None of them changed their manual in the midst of multiple lawsuits and investigations regarding the gun firing unintentionally. SIG did. So actually, it is a big deal. And it will be the next time SIG is under cross. It's that the sig manuals changed, on that point. That's the big deal. |
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Quoted: This was gone over in this thread in almost excruciating detail. Somehwere between page 54-55 and this page, I believe. I just don't recall when. Quoted: This was gone over in this thread in almost excruciating detail. Somehwere between page 54-55 and this page, I believe. I just don't recall when. Then find it. Find where the SIG 320 manual says "....can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber.." But yes, sig DID change their manuals... Thats not the argument. For sure, there is plenty of lawyer language but what Missilegeek says is in the manual does not appear. |
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Quoted: It's not the fact that others include similar or even identical language. It's that the sig manuals changed, on that point. That's the big deal. Firearm manufacturers rewrite owners manuals all the time. Ya'll going to shit your pants when you find out Ruger engraves lawyer language on the gun. OMG! OMG! OMG! |
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Quoted: Firearm manufacturers rewrite owners manuals all the time. Ya'll going to shit your pants when you find out Ruger engraves lawyer language on the gun. OMG! OMG! OMG! Quoted: Quoted: It's not the fact that others include similar or even identical language. It's that the sig manuals changed, on that point. That's the big deal. Ya'll going to shit your pants when you find out Ruger engraves lawyer language on the gun. OMG! OMG! OMG! |
It's not like we're rooting for more SIGsidents.
 Failed To Load Title https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Even-the-FBI-says-the-P320-is-trash-/5-2803454/ |
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FOIA'ed documents dated 30 august 2024.  |
| I really thought w/ the "Punch test" indicating not all striker block safeties were working, and the reassembly problem putting the striker on a false sear that we had it figured out. This SIGsident doesn't correspond to that, as it wasn't cleaned since it was last fired - so there wouldn't be any reason to disassemble & reassemble the gun, and it's a recent production pistol (2024), so presumably SIG is shipping pistols w/ the correct takedown safety lever installed. This sounds like a fundamental design issue related to tolerance stacking & MIM parts. |
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Quoted: You're absolutely right. Multiple other gun manufacturers do have similar language in their manuals. This isn’t wholly true, either. Most manufacturers state that their firearms should never be transported while loaded, or not carried in an appropriate holster. A primary example would be Glock’s manual. In addition to said firearms transportation language, Sig’s language is unique in the fact that they further add their guns shouldn’t be carried with a round in the chamber, and should only be loaded once you are ready to use the firearm. Funny thing about that additional language…it is unduly vague on its face. As an LEO, my interpretation of a firearm being ready to use may be radically different than someone who is using them for sport/entertainment. |
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Not to be a Doubting Thomas but the letterhead states Federal Bureau of Investigation and Drug Enforcement Administration. Is that even a thing?  Typing that into Google yields nothing, and entering Ballistic Research Facility only yields FBI stuff, nothing about DEA. Maybe I'm too jaded and cynical about...everything. |
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Quoted: Not to be a Doubting Thomas but the letterhead states Federal Bureau of Investigation and Drug Enforcement Administration. Is that even a thing? Typing that into Google yields nothing, and entering Ballistic Research Facility only yields FBI stuff, nothing about DEA. Maybe I'm too jaded and cynical about...everything. Quoted: Not to be a Doubting Thomas but the letterhead states Federal Bureau of Investigation and Drug Enforcement Administration. Is that even a thing? Typing that into Google yields nothing, and entering Ballistic Research Facility only yields FBI stuff, nothing about DEA. Maybe I'm too jaded and cynical about...everything. Guy on the video says it was the FBI's ballistics research facility? Apparently that's in huntsville over by redstone... https://businessalabama.com/fbi-campus-takes-shape-in-huntsville/ |
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Quoted: I really thought w/ the "Punch test" indicating not all striker block safeties were working, and the reassembly problem putting the striker on a false sear that we had it figured out. This SIGsident doesn't correspond to that, as it wasn't cleaned since it was last fired - so there wouldn't be any reason to disassemble & reassemble the gun, and it's a recent production pistol (2024), so presumably SIG is shipping pistols w/ the correct takedown safety lever installed. This sounds like a fundamental design issue related to tolerance stacking & MIM parts. I mentioned something like this earlier in the thread too, specifically to the false sear/takedown lever/dead trigger thing. I think that may be part of the puzzle, but not the full solution, as many of these guns are being used for a few hundred rounds without disassembly and then have an AD afterwards. If false sears/dead triggers were the only way an AD could happen, then those guns shouldn't be having ADs or even be capable of firing a few hundred rounds...but they are. Watch it end up being like 5 different ways that an AD could happen with the 320.
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Quoted: Quoted: Sig rewrote the manual to say that their combat/duty pistol can't be safely carried with a round in the chamber. That's essentially a written admission of the problem. No they didn't. P320 Owners Manual says no such thing. 2.0.2 BASIC RULES OF SAFE FIREARMS HANDLING ONLY load a round in the chamber when ready to fire They do give you some cautions if you elect to carry with a round in the chamber, against their advice. They did not caution that the gun is mechanically unsafe and should be thrown in the trash can. It took the FBI to do that. |
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Quoted: I really thought w/ the "Punch test" indicating not all striker block safeties were working, and the reassembly problem putting the striker on a false sear that we had it figured out. This SIGsident doesn't correspond to that, as it wasn't cleaned since it was last fired - so there wouldn't be any reason to disassemble & reassemble the gun, and it's a recent production pistol (2024), so presumably SIG is shipping pistols w/ the correct takedown safety lever installed. This sounds like a fundamental design issue related to tolerance stacking & MIM parts. The "reassembly problem" was always a fringe case/red herring that didn't apply to most real world examples. |
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Quoted: Watch it end up being like 5 different ways that an AD could happen with the 320. |