[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 77 of 142)
Page numbering bump and 10 month old video - have not watched: Sig Sauer P320 Loses $2.3M Safety Lawsuit: Is The Pistol Unsafe? |
|
Quoted: If I owned a gun shop, i would pull P320s from the shelf and would not be buying the used. I also wouldn't work on one if I were a gun smith. Or allow them on my range if I owned a public range or ran classes. It doesn't seem prudent to risk your hard earned money and business, to be involved with Sig's problems and lawsuits. There was a guy shooting a P320 at the last match I went to... Luckily he was in a different squad. I won't be surprised if all the businesses run away from the liability of this nonsense. I feel bad for the people and businesses who are up to their eyeballs in Sig junk. We have a local gunshop that's balls deep in Sig, like 40% of the place is devoted to Sig products. i have a feeling this is going to suck for them. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think this bar is moving pretty fast. This isn't a quiet corner thing with just a couple of Arfcom threads and the Trenchcoat videos. Brandon Herrera has two meme videos with over 2M views combined, the P320 has been banned by LE academies in two states, and that Christian Warrior Training report is going to reach a pretty big audience. Low information gun buyers that walk into retail stores and buy on price point may have no idea, but those are not the majority of customers. Even if people aren't enthusiasts, a good subset of people will get on the internet and look for reviews before buying anything over a certain price point. Anyone who takes 30 seconds to search Google or YouTube for the P320 are going to get this discussion front and center. In order for someone to be completely unaware, they have to have zero interest in guns, and they have to go gun shopping without Googling anything. It’s nuts how many people I deal with that come in and say I’m looking to buy a gun but have not thought things through past that statement much less done any research. Now, it’s not every single one, but I’d say it’s probably 40% or so. If I owned a gun shop, i would pull P320s from the shelf and would not be buying the used. I also wouldn't work on one if I were a gun smith. Or allow them on my range if I owned a public range or ran classes. It doesn't seem prudent to risk your hard earned money and business, to be involved with Sig's problems and lawsuits. There was a guy shooting a P320 at the last match I went to... Luckily he was in a different squad. I won't be surprised if all the businesses run away from the liability of this nonsense. I feel bad for the people and businesses who are up to their eyeballs in Sig junk. We have a local gunshop that's balls deep in Sig, like 40% of the place is devoted to Sig products. i have a feeling this is going to suck for them. I bet ranges will be ok, if they don't allow holster practice and have a decent waiver. Obviously, no rentals.  Shops would be wise to ship them back to the distributor and instructors will exclude them so they're not forced to give rain checks to their students if an injury halts training. Kharn |
|
Sorry if this link has already been posted but this is not acceptable and the Army should pull the plug. Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern |
|
Quoted: Sorry if this link has already been posted but this is not acceptable and the Army should pull the plug. Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern Not to defend the military or Sig on this, but ND's and people being shot accidentally does happen in the military. It's rare, but it does happen. We had a guy in another company shoot his team leader in the ass during team certification before our Afghanistan deployment. The problem is the idea that they are usually determined to be user error and result in NJP as a result. For that reason, it usually stays as an internal issue and we don't get very much information about it. The incident with the MP in that article was one we discussed when it happened. Same for the stated issue with the Marines. It does mention the other issues, but just in passing by mentioning the states they happened in. |
|
Quoted: it may well be fine...that's the problem; we don't know what the exact issue is so some guns are fine, some aren't, so it's like playing russian roulette while you carry. Quoted: Quoted: I only own one P320 but it’s a AGX scorpion and I have 15 mags for it. At the time I bought it the pistol seemed to be sorted out and have a good reputation. Oh well it may well be fine...that's the problem; we don't know what the exact issue is so some guns are fine, some aren't, so it's like playing russian roulette while you carry. Which means none of them are fine at least for now. |
|
Quoted: Not to defend the military or Sig on this, but ND's and people being shot accidentally does happen in the military. It's rare, but it does happen. We had a guy in another company shoot his team leader in the ass during team certification before our Afghanistan deployment. The problem is the idea that they are usually determined to be user error and result in NJP as a result. For that reason, it usually stays as an internal issue and we don't get very much information about it. The incident with the MP in that article was one we discussed when it happened. Same for the stated issue with the Marines. It does mention the other issues, but just in passing by mentioning the states they happened in. Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if this link has already been posted but this is not acceptable and the Army should pull the plug. Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern Not to defend the military or Sig on this, but ND's and people being shot accidentally does happen in the military. It's rare, but it does happen. We had a guy in another company shoot his team leader in the ass during team certification before our Afghanistan deployment. The problem is the idea that they are usually determined to be user error and result in NJP as a result. For that reason, it usually stays as an internal issue and we don't get very much information about it. The incident with the MP in that article was one we discussed when it happened. Same for the stated issue with the Marines. It does mention the other issues, but just in passing by mentioning the states they happened in. Given the number of firearms and level of use involved there will be NDs in .mil that are caused by the user but the concern here is that someone will be killed by one of these firearms strictly due to a defect in the firearm. Over time the number of reports indicating these fireamrs discharge while holstered is mounting in and out of the military. Sadly one or more people may have to die before .mil and .gov (le) take matters seriously. Sig could act now and prevent that but looks like that won't happen. |
 Nationwide reports of popular pistol firing without trigger pull uncovered by WSMV4 Investigates |
|
Quoted: Given the number of firearms and level of use involved there will be NDs in .mil that are caused by the user but the concern here is that someone will be killed by one of these firearms strictly due to a defect in the firearm. Over time the number of reports indicating these fireamrs discharge while holstered is mounting in and out of the military. Sadly one or more people may have to die before .mil and .gov (le) take matters seriously. Sig could act now and prevent that but looks like that won't happen. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if this link has already been posted but this is not acceptable and the Army should pull the plug. Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern Not to defend the military or Sig on this, but ND's and people being shot accidentally does happen in the military. It's rare, but it does happen. We had a guy in another company shoot his team leader in the ass during team certification before our Afghanistan deployment. The problem is the idea that they are usually determined to be user error and result in NJP as a result. For that reason, it usually stays as an internal issue and we don't get very much information about it. The incident with the MP in that article was one we discussed when it happened. Same for the stated issue with the Marines. It does mention the other issues, but just in passing by mentioning the states they happened in. Given the number of firearms and level of use involved there will be NDs in .mil that are caused by the user but the concern here is that someone will be killed by one of these firearms strictly due to a defect in the firearm. Over time the number of reports indicating these fireamrs discharge while holstered is mounting in and out of the military. Sadly one or more people may have to die before .mil and .gov (le) take matters seriously. Sig could act now and prevent that but looks like that won't happen. There may have already been one death due to this. |
|
That's a 2022 video of the 2017 "upgrade", covered extensively in that thread. |
|
That thread was retarded, and you're bold enough to come in here and try again? Good luck.  |
|
Quoted: That's a 2022 video of the 2017 "upgrade", covered extensively in that thread. Quoted: That's a 2022 video of the 2017 "upgrade", covered extensively in that thread. It's a 2022 reupload of their 2017 drop safe upgrade video. This is why I started the tech thread, so we could catalog all this stuff and recognize it when someone pops up & says, lookie here, SIG's already fixed it! |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Nah, just a fan, and he came across their 2022 re-upload & got excited b/c he'd never seen it before. Are you going to believe a video from your favorite company with a non-original upload date on it or are you gonna believe some random ARFCOMer? We have long believed NDs are the fault of the operator - hence the term Negligent Discharge. It's quite the mind fuck to switch from that mindset to the idea that your favorite gun company whose products you have spent $thousands on is willing to sacrifice your balls, your dick, and maybe your life for their profit. |
Did we do this yet?  It ND's Today They recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. |
|
Quoted: Did we do this yet?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Wow. That pretty definitively chases down the wrong takedown lever issue. Maybe the design can be fixed after all. Correct takedown lever. Disconnecting trigger bar that doesn't activate the striker block when the sear moves. If that will fix it, why hasn't SIG announced another voluntary upgrade, and all the problems go away? Why is the firearms community having to chase this shit down and show you how to keep your favorite carry pistol from shooting you in the nuts? |
|
Quoted: If that will fix it, why hasn't SIG announced another voluntary upgrade, and all the problems go away? Why is the firearms community having to chase this shit down and show you how to keep your favorite carry pistol from shooting you in the nuts? Because SIG has gone on record, in both media and in court cases, stating unequivocally that it is impossible for the gun to go off without the trigger being pulled. They have bragged about winning court cases. They have painted themselves into a corner where they open themselves up to massive liability if they now admit there is something wrong. In fact, they have still never admitted anything was wrong with pre-2017 guns. |
|
Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Interesting video that seems like an issue if it occurred and was carried that way. |
|
Quoted: I'll throw another hypothesis out there: some holsters may force enough flex to widen the gap between the frame and slide and the striker slips off the sear. Throw in a non-functioning firing pin safety and bang. I have yet to read about a 320 that went off that wasn't in a holster. Those are pretty good points. Going to try that on my 2 320's when I get off of work this morning. |
|
Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. |
|
Quoted: Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Quoted: Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Based on earlier discussion, I think the same part number issue is the 9mm/.40 takedown safety lever and the 10mm/.45 takedown safety lever, not the different FCUs. As the FCU has the SN, I think it's extremely unlikely a police department running all 9mm 320s would somehow end up w/ a 10mm or .45 ACP FCU in the mix accidentally. I could see nearly identical parts getting mixed up at the factory and installed in some unknown number of guns, or a police armorer getting the wrong shipment of parts and installing the wrong takedown safety lever - but how often is an armorer going to replace a takedown safety lever? The next question - are there any 320s out in the wild from the factory w/ the wrong takedown safety lever installed? |
|
Quoted: Based on earlier discussion, I think the same part number issue is the 9mm/.40 takedown safety lever and the 10mm/.45 takedown safety lever, not the different FCUs. As the FCU has the SN, I think it's extremely unlikely a police department running all 9mm 320s would somehow end up w/ a 10mm or .45 ACP FCU in the mix accidentally. I could see nearly identical parts getting mixed up at the factory and installed in some unknown number of guns, or a police armorer getting the wrong shipment of parts and installing the wrong takedown safety lever - but how often is an armorer going to replace a takedown safety lever? The next question - are there any 320s out in the wild from the factory w/ the wrong takedown safety lever installed? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Based on earlier discussion, I think the same part number issue is the 9mm/.40 takedown safety lever and the 10mm/.45 takedown safety lever, not the different FCUs. As the FCU has the SN, I think it's extremely unlikely a police department running all 9mm 320s would somehow end up w/ a 10mm or .45 ACP FCU in the mix accidentally. I could see nearly identical parts getting mixed up at the factory and installed in some unknown number of guns, or a police armorer getting the wrong shipment of parts and installing the wrong takedown safety lever - but how often is an armorer going to replace a takedown safety lever? The next question - are there any 320s out in the wild from the factory w/ the wrong takedown safety lever installed? If they are an outsourced part I could see very easily the company sending a miss marked batch. Happens all the time in other industries we ordered this and got that instead by mistake. That or the guy grabbing parts for the bin doesn’t check a number he simply opens box and goes welp these are fake down levers I’ll take them out to John he’s getting low on parts. Even if they are diffident the guy on the assembly line with a box of ten thousand levers might not catch the miner difference. Final inspection wouldn’t because the gun works properly with the wrong one for function testing. ETA: even harder to track would be the well we had to repack these cases because the packaging got messed up. And a box of the wrong got bulked with boxes of the correct and no one caught it. |
|
Quoted: If they are an outsourced part I could see very easily the company sending a miss marked batch. Happens all the time in other industries we ordered this and got that instead by mistake. That or the guy grabbing parts for the bin doesn’t check a number he simply opens box and goes welp these are fake down levers I’ll take them out to John he’s getting low on parts. Even if they are diffident the guy on the assembly line with a box of ten thousand levers might not catch the miner difference. Final inspection wouldn’t because the gun works properly with the wrong one for function testing. ETA: even harder to track would be the well we had to repack these cases because the packaging got messed up. And a box of the wrong got bulked with boxes of the correct and no one caught it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Based on earlier discussion, I think the same part number issue is the 9mm/.40 takedown safety lever and the 10mm/.45 takedown safety lever, not the different FCUs. As the FCU has the SN, I think it's extremely unlikely a police department running all 9mm 320s would somehow end up w/ a 10mm or .45 ACP FCU in the mix accidentally. I could see nearly identical parts getting mixed up at the factory and installed in some unknown number of guns, or a police armorer getting the wrong shipment of parts and installing the wrong takedown safety lever - but how often is an armorer going to replace a takedown safety lever? The next question - are there any 320s out in the wild from the factory w/ the wrong takedown safety lever installed? If they are an outsourced part I could see very easily the company sending a miss marked batch. Happens all the time in other industries we ordered this and got that instead by mistake. That or the guy grabbing parts for the bin doesn’t check a number he simply opens box and goes welp these are fake down levers I’ll take them out to John he’s getting low on parts. Even if they are diffident the guy on the assembly line with a box of ten thousand levers might not catch the miner difference. Final inspection wouldn’t because the gun works properly with the wrong one for function testing. ETA: even harder to track would be the well we had to repack these cases because the packaging got messed up. And a box of the wrong got bulked with boxes of the correct and no one caught it. At the same time, if this is the issue for the sear failure, then it's an easy fix for SIG - voluntary recall for the "upgraded" takedown safety lever. |
|
Quoted: At the same time, if this is the issue for the sear failure, then it's an easy fix for SIG - voluntary recall for the "upgraded" takedown safety lever. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Based on earlier discussion, I think the same part number issue is the 9mm/.40 takedown safety lever and the 10mm/.45 takedown safety lever, not the different FCUs. As the FCU has the SN, I think it's extremely unlikely a police department running all 9mm 320s would somehow end up w/ a 10mm or .45 ACP FCU in the mix accidentally. I could see nearly identical parts getting mixed up at the factory and installed in some unknown number of guns, or a police armorer getting the wrong shipment of parts and installing the wrong takedown safety lever - but how often is an armorer going to replace a takedown safety lever? The next question - are there any 320s out in the wild from the factory w/ the wrong takedown safety lever installed? If they are an outsourced part I could see very easily the company sending a miss marked batch. Happens all the time in other industries we ordered this and got that instead by mistake. That or the guy grabbing parts for the bin doesn’t check a number he simply opens box and goes welp these are fake down levers I’ll take them out to John he’s getting low on parts. Even if they are diffident the guy on the assembly line with a box of ten thousand levers might not catch the miner difference. Final inspection wouldn’t because the gun works properly with the wrong one for function testing. ETA: even harder to track would be the well we had to repack these cases because the packaging got messed up. And a box of the wrong got bulked with boxes of the correct and no one caught it. At the same time, if this is the issue for the sear failure, then it's an easy fix for SIG - voluntary recall for the "upgraded" takedown safety lever. Absolutely hell if they sent everyone with a 9mm 320 a 9mm takedown lever even if they had one it would cost less then the lawsuits |
|
So, after watching that last video RE: the 10 vs 9 FCU and how the takedown lever can leave the sear in a reduced engagement position... What if we have a shooter that posts a thumb on the takedown lever while shooting and uses it as a recoil thumbrest? The lever would tend to be rotated during firing. I don't have my 320 here at the office but it may be worth seeing if putting pressure on the lever in a fully assembled and ready to fire condition pistol while NOT taking it all the way to takedown position can cause sear movement. My 320 is a 2016 model with the larger takedown lever that is easy to rest the thumb on. I also sent it in for the voluntary upgrade. Sig even sells the Go Gun USA Gas Pedal in their store. |
|
Quoted: So, after watching that last video RE: the 10 vs 9 FCU and how the takedown lever can leave the sear in a reduced engagement position... What if we have a shooter that posts a thumb on the takedown lever while shooting and uses it as a recoil thumbrest? The lever would tend to be rotated during firing. I don't have my 320 here at the office but it may be worth seeing if putting pressure on the lever in a fully assembled and ready to fire condition pistol while NOT taking it all the way to takedown position can cause sear movement. My 320 is a 2016 model with the larger takedown lever that is easy to rest the thumb on. I also sent it in for the voluntary upgrade. Sig even sells the Go Gun USA Gas Pedal in their store. I used my gas pedal takedown lever as a gas pedal and it never moved. It takes very deliberate, rotational movement to get it to move. |
|
Quoted: So, after watching that last video RE: the 10 vs 9 FCU and how the takedown lever can leave the sear in a reduced engagement position... What if we have a shooter that posts a thumb on the takedown lever while shooting and uses it as a recoil thumbrest? The lever would tend to be rotated during firing. I don't have my 320 here at the office but it may be worth seeing if putting pressure on the lever in a fully assembled and ready to fire condition pistol while NOT taking it all the way to takedown position can cause sear movement. My 320 is a 2016 model with the larger takedown lever that is easy to rest the thumb on. I also sent it in for the voluntary upgrade. Sig even sells the Go Gun USA Gas Pedal in their store. Even if rotating the takedown lever while firing was an issue, it doesn't explain guns going off in holsters. I think we have a possible explanation for this: 1) Certain trigger bars move with the sear, while others do not move as much. Depending on the trigger bar, if the sear moves, it may disable the striker block. This is a significant part of the issue, and can be tested for - the "Punch Test". 2) Apparently, the wrong length takedown safety lever, internal to the FCU, can cause very light sear engagement after reassembly until the slide lock is pushed upwards. If this is not done, the striker can exhibit the Patented Taurus "Shake Awake" sear release. So, with the combination of certain parts, we may be able to arrive at a predictably dangerous 320 - absent those parts, 320s are relatively safe, albeit in some guns only the sear guarantees future generations. |
|
Quoted: Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Quoted: Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Great video. So we've got at least one confirmed way to get an AD: 1. Non-functional firing pin block, whether through shit parts from Sig, broken springs, wear and tear, or a dirty gun. 2. .45/10mm FCU, which is almost indistinguishable from the 9mm FCU and can lead to install in the gun, whether from Sig itself or user error. Also, the video claims these have the same parts numbers, though I'm not sure if that's true. While this obviously is a way for an AD to happen, I'm not confident this is the answer market-wide. I say that because the video shows the gun in a basically non-functional state when put together like this. It would be very hard for someone to then take a class, shoot a few hundred rounds, and then have the gun go off in the middle of that class. I think there's more to the story. Very interesting, and at the same time, odd, story. Why does that holster have a finger-cut-out to allow a more comfortable finger-still-on-trigger while holstering, is my first question! I have no doubt that some Sig P320 AD's are indeed user operated AD's. Back to the "is that a f%^ P320?" video: To suggest a guy standing there during a cease fire- with the instructor standing in front of the crowd, was a finger-induced AD, would require that guy to have been fucking with his pistol and hot reholstering it during a stand-down cease fire discussion period while the instructor was downrange. And nobody else was handling their pistol at the time, yet that guy is now being essentially being accused of having removed his loaded gun from his holster, and then reholstering it with his finger on the trigger - with an instructor downrange and everyone standing around. And nobody anywhere around him, who was looking at him or would have noticed such movements, is saying that happened. Very different than reholstering a hot gun you just got done, with your finger still on the trigger. This is the problem with the Sig-P320 apologist. They have absolute certainty that it couldn't possible be the gun by chasing down very questionable "explanations", that aren't consistent with the observations. And you bet, for a one-off, maybe they'd be right. How many video's have we seen now of holstered guns going off with the dude's hand not even on it? When this happens again and again and again, and at a much higher rate particular to the P320 - at what point do you start to go: "maybe something is wrong"? It's like talking faith and religion with P320 fanboys. Whatever grasping absurdity they can cling to, to say it was user actuated, despite how very questionable that explanation is, they cling to. Again, and again, and again. While all the holstered Glocks on the line did just fine. And then the test comes out to demonstrate the Safety sear on a great number of them is just straight up failing. And is that the HOLY SHIT moment it should be? Nope. That instructor in that video I'm sure is a great guy, but I wouldn't take a class with him. Just because one UD was shown to be an AD, doesn't mean all the UD's are AD's. And you know what - the fact that P320's have more AD's than all other guns combined: is that not in itself sufficient reason to start to question if that's really the gun you want on your range? And pointed at your family jewels, and pointed at the back at someone's head while in the stands at the next Softball game? Why is this guy so fixated on defending P320, where the only reason that gun is in anyone's holster today, is because they half-price low-balled the USArmy to adopt this fairly mediocre gun. And back to the instructor. He has people hot-reholster? Mr. Safety does hot reholsters, and is clinging to P320's are fine. Yea OK. |
|
Very interesting video. Those guys should be commended for putting a lot of time into investigating the issue. So as I understand it, the 10mm takedown bar can leave a 9mm gun with a partially engaged sear. Its already been demonstrated that the sear moving down pushes the trigger bar. This would leave a mostly or completely disengaged striker safety, and a sear in a condition that it could easily slip off. Also the 10mm takedown bar can allow a 9mm magazine to be inserted. The design flaw is that the striker safety can be disengaged by the sear movement independently from trigger movement in some guns as shown in earlier videos. I would scrap the whole design and start over. |
|
Quoted: Very interesting video. Those guys should be commended for putting a lot of time into investigating the issue. So as I understand it, the 10mm takedown bar can leave a 9mm gun with a partially engaged sear. Its already been demonstrated that the sear moving down pushes the trigger bar. This would leave a mostly or completely disengaged striker safety, and a sear in a condition that it could easily slip off. Also the 10mm takedown bar can allow a 9mm magazine to be inserted. The design flaw is that the striker safety can be disengaged by the sear movement independently from trigger movement in some guns as shown in earlier videos. I would scrap the whole design and start over. I'm not convinced the design is that bad. It's sounding as if w/ the correct takedown safety lever, and a trigger bar that "disconnects", ie, moves less than others w/ sear movement, the design works as intended and is as safe as any other striker fired pistol. Put the wrong part in there w/ a trigger bar that is locked to the sear, you're auditioning for the Sistine Chapel Boy's Choir. |
|
You can actually buy that? Holy shit! 
|
|
Quoted: You can actually buy that? Holy shit! https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fbf%2F04%2Fd8%2Fbf04d8075e605d731659e3e847693d45.jpg Quoted: You can actually buy that? Holy shit! https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fbf%2F04%2Fd8%2Fbf04d8075e605d731659e3e847693d45.jpg Yeah - it's only 320 dimes. |
|
Quoted: Very interesting video. Those guys should be commended for putting a lot of time into investigating the issue. So as I understand it, the 10mm takedown bar can leave a 9mm gun with a partially engaged sear. Its already been demonstrated that the sear moving down pushes the trigger bar. This would leave a mostly or completely disengaged striker safety, and a sear in a condition that it could easily slip off. Also the 10mm takedown bar can allow a 9mm magazine to be inserted. The design flaw is that the striker safety can be disengaged by the sear movement independently from trigger movement in some guns as shown in earlier videos. I would scrap the whole design and start over. I'm with you here. The sear being able to independently defeat the striker block safety without a trigger pull is unforgivable. I definitely think this is part of at least some of the ADs we're seeing. Throw in a 10mm/45 ACP FCU and it keeping the sear low, and you're in for a bad time. |
|
Quoted: I'm with you here. The sear being able to independently defeat the striker block safety without a trigger pull is unforgivable. I definitely think this is part of at least some of the ADs we're seeing. Throw in a 10mm/45 ACP FCU and it keeping the sear low, and you're in for a bad time. Quoted: Quoted: Very interesting video. Those guys should be commended for putting a lot of time into investigating the issue. So as I understand it, the 10mm takedown bar can leave a 9mm gun with a partially engaged sear. Its already been demonstrated that the sear moving down pushes the trigger bar. This would leave a mostly or completely disengaged striker safety, and a sear in a condition that it could easily slip off. Also the 10mm takedown bar can allow a 9mm magazine to be inserted. The design flaw is that the striker safety can be disengaged by the sear movement independently from trigger movement in some guns as shown in earlier videos. I would scrap the whole design and start over. I'm with you here. The sear being able to independently defeat the striker block safety without a trigger pull is unforgivable. I definitely think this is part of at least some of the ADs we're seeing. Throw in a 10mm/45 ACP FCU and it keeping the sear low, and you're in for a bad time. Yes - but how many folks mix up their FCUs between guns? I'd wager none of the UDs occurring in police holsters are using the wrong FCU - that's the serial numbered part. If it's found they're running the wrong takedown safety lever, however... |
|
Quoted: Yeah - it's only 320 dimes. Quoted: Quoted: You can actually buy that? Holy shit! https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fbf%2F04%2Fd8%2Fbf04d8075e605d731659e3e847693d45.jpg Yeah - it's only 320 dimes. Attached File |
|
Quoted: Is the take down lever the only mixmatched part thats the problem? If so is there a part number or a measurment you can make to determin if its the wrong take down lever? This is the problem with conjecture. In no way has it been proven that the takedown lever is the problem. Even if it were, it would only be one of several issues with the 320. But people come into this thread, read a page, and think "oh, all I need to do is replace my takedown lever and my 320 is gtg!" |
|
Quoted: This is the problem with conjecture. In no way has it been proven that the takedown lever is the problem. Even if it were, it would only be one of several issues with the 320. But people come into this thread, read a page, and think "oh, all I need to do is replace my takedown lever and my 320 is gtg!" Quoted: Quoted: Is the take down lever the only mixmatched part thats the problem? If so is there a part number or a measurment you can make to determin if its the wrong take down lever? This is the problem with conjecture. In no way has it been proven that the takedown lever is the problem. Even if it were, it would only be one of several issues with the 320. But people come into this thread, read a page, and think "oh, all I need to do is replace my takedown lever and my 320 is gtg!" But it would be 87% safer.
|
|
Quoted: Is the take down lever the only mixmatched part thats the problem? If so is there a part number or a measurment you can make to determin if its the wrong take down lever? Insert a magazine then try to field strip the pistol. If the takedown lever can rotate with a 9mm mag inserted you have a .45/10mm takedown safety lever. If it can't you have a 9mm/.40/.357 takedown safety lever. While using a mismatched lever is a potential problem, I don't buy it being the problem. |
|
Quoted: Did we do this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4Ri409-5IThey recreate some conditions that result in intermittent uncommanded discharges. Him getting that click just by shaking it in his hand immediately makes me think of the "light" strikes observed and reported by sig in that legal document. 
|
|
Quoted: Yes - but how many folks mix up their FCUs between guns? I'd wager none of the UDs occurring in police holsters are using the wrong FCU - that's the serial numbered part. If it's found they're running the wrong takedown safety lever, however... I think k thats likely what's happening. So eine said the takedown safety lever has the same part name (if not the same SKU) for both versions. So it's possible some parts picker at a shipping warehouse sends the wrong one to people who order a replacement. It's also possible if they aren't labeled correctly from the contract manufacturer (language barrier) they could end up on the wrong Sig factory assembly lines. Is there any identifying info stamped, molded, etched or engraved on the takedown bar itself? Or do have to measure with calipers to determine which version you have? Sig would be totally sunk if someone opened a brand new factory sealed 9mm P320 and it had a 10mm takedown bar in it. |