[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 133 of 142)
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Quoted: Simply put: The video posted earlier shows how striker fired pistols can have the trigger pulled a certain distance without firing the gun, but then simply moving the slide around fires the gun.  the point of that test was not to demonstrate a pulled trigger but rather to simulate reduced sear engagement due to defective sear surfaces which do not affect other pistol platforms Jesus H Christ dude, give it a rest. |
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Quoted: More and more abandon the p320 as unsafe - smart move. Not getting rid of mine but no way in hell I would ever carry one. Loaded anyway  Even if Sig said, send it in, we have a fix. I just don't trust the Sig company. They lied about the drop firing until every asshole on YouTube was making Sig drop videos. How could anyone trust Sig ever again? |
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Quoted: You may be right but if so that would be a shame. My P220 and P226 are awesome, to lose the manufacturer of those would be a loss. We won't lose the manufacturer of them. Ruger will just buy the remnants for pennies on the dollar and start reproducing them with adequate QC a la Marlin. |
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Quoted: Simply put: The video posted earlier shows how striker fired pistols can have the trigger pulled a certain distance without firing the gun, but then simply moving the slide around fires the gun. While most folks believed that was not possible, it is, and proven so. So, yes, a striker fired pistol can fire if holstered and the trigger is pulled back by debris/clothing/holster fit/whatever a far enough distance that simple movement in the slide/frame slop can cause it to fire. Some can obviously do so easier than others - shorter trigger pulls, thin trigger guards, no trigger safety. Why folks try to dismiss it, impugn anyone that points it out, is the sad part. The real question is, why do they? The evidence does not point to a specific part failure or a fix, but clearly shows an issue. The logical thought process would be to expand on it, not impugn it for other non verified/unrepeatable theories…. It is gd, though.. Glock leg was named for a reason, not because of Glock being the problem, though everyone tried to say it was, but because of all the nd/ad/and us claims that no one could figure out why. There were still cops/security personnel having ad/nd with double action revolvers and double action semiautos in their holsters, etc, just not as frequently as glocks. And folks knew not to report them as often, because there was no mysterious issue with a long double action trigger pull vs the new striker fired shorter/lighter trigger pull. History repeats itself. But again, this does not exonerate sig. It also does not mean all discharges are caused by this. It is simply a proven repeatable issue that is known. Quoted: Quoted: The reason that people think you’ve lost your marbles is this statement. Other modern service pistols do not go off with a bump. Loaded Glocks and M&Ps get dropped, *launched*, pressed against shit in a holster, car crashed, and banged into shit daily. Daily, I say. I, too, have questions about the context of the photo with the struck primers, btw. Thanks, those who chimed in about the sear walking thought. Simply put: The video posted earlier shows how striker fired pistols can have the trigger pulled a certain distance without firing the gun, but then simply moving the slide around fires the gun. While most folks believed that was not possible, it is, and proven so. So, yes, a striker fired pistol can fire if holstered and the trigger is pulled back by debris/clothing/holster fit/whatever a far enough distance that simple movement in the slide/frame slop can cause it to fire. Some can obviously do so easier than others - shorter trigger pulls, thin trigger guards, no trigger safety. Why folks try to dismiss it, impugn anyone that points it out, is the sad part. The real question is, why do they? The evidence does not point to a specific part failure or a fix, but clearly shows an issue. The logical thought process would be to expand on it, not impugn it for other non verified/unrepeatable theories…. It is gd, though.. Glock leg was named for a reason, not because of Glock being the problem, though everyone tried to say it was, but because of all the nd/ad/and us claims that no one could figure out why. There were still cops/security personnel having ad/nd with double action revolvers and double action semiautos in their holsters, etc, just not as frequently as glocks. And folks knew not to report them as often, because there was no mysterious issue with a long double action trigger pull vs the new striker fired shorter/lighter trigger pull. History repeats itself. But again, this does not exonerate sig. It also does not mean all discharges are caused by this. It is simply a proven repeatable issue that is known. If something foreign has pulled the trigger so far that it’s hanging on by even less seat engagement remaining than there is slide/frame clearance, doesn’t it seem reasonable that bumping it would just as easily just finish pulling the trigger? You’re making a distinction without a difference. Pistols fire when they lose sear engagement. If a pistol, of any type, has extremely diminished sear engagement from any cause, it can be fired by bumping. Why is a P320 losing sear engagement? That’s the question, and it needs to be answered in a way that is not applicable to other pistols because other pistols are not randomly firing in holsters across the country on a regular basis with no clearly identifiable cause. If stuff is getting into the trigger area of the holster and firing the pistol in all or practically all of these incidents, why is it that nobody can ever find that stuff after the fact? |
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Quoted: the point of that test was not to demonstrate a pulled trigger but rather to simulate reduced sear engagement due to defective sear surfaces which do not affect other pistol platforms Jesus H Christ dude, give it a rest. The point of the test exposed something most folks thought could not happen, and even after other tests prove it, still deny the implications. The true point of all this is safety. The multiple videos and stories of holster pops without hands on the trigger started us down this path. The mystery caused it to grow, and rightly so. Three things we now know for certain. 1). Assembling a 320 the wrong way creates unsafe conditions. 2). Having incorrect parts in a p320 creates unsafe conditions. 3). Striker fired handguns can have the trigger pulled a certain distance and not fire the handgun - but can fire if the frame/slide slop is disturbed at that point. The first two are simple to understand and address. The third is the one we now know for certain can occur, though for some odd reason folks try to dismiss it…. We also do not have all the specifics as to why or the specifics as to why some obviously have it happen more easily/frequently than others, at least not yet. But like the drop videos years ago showing the drop issue with the 320, we have a 100 percent proven issue. This now gives verifiable, repeatable proof of how the holster pops can happen. It does not exonerate sig, and it does not mean all the incidents happen because of this. If someone can show a repeatable/duplicatable test showing a loaded bone stock unmodified sig 320 can somehow fire by bumping it or jostling it without any trigger pull, then yes, the p320 needs to go. That is still a possibility. We have some answers, maybe not all, to the holster pops and other issues. Ignoring them in search of simply sinking sig is NOT a safe path. I could care less if sig survives or goes away, as we all should - they have their pr issues, no doubt. It is important to learn how to address the holster pop/other issues. Can ad/nd ever be completely removed from existence? No, but we can work to be safer. Can we figure out if a gun is completely unsafe and be removed from production - absolutely, but it must be a proven/repeatable/verifiable issue that can not be corrected. |
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Anyone with a BASIC understanding of modern striker pistols ALWAYS knew if you were to pull the trigger to within a hair of release, then decrease the engagement via moving the slide it would lose engagement. Dude you keep saying "nobody thought this possible" when it is common sense. You also equate this known behavior with what is happening with the 320 when IT ISNT. You must have autism or something like it. |
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Quoted: Anyone with a BASIC understanding of modern striker pistols ALWAYS knew if you were to pull the trigger to within a hair of release, then decrease the engagement via moving the slide it would lose engagement. Dude you keep saying "nobody thought this possible" when it is common sense. You also equate this known behavior with what is happening with the 320 when IT ISNT. You must have autism or something like it. Most people, obviously not as smart as you, were not able to clearly see how simply bumping a striker fired pistol in a holster with the trigger pulled far enough back could fire by being bumped. I guess I missed all those smart folks helping clear that up early on, though, so that mystery could have been cleared up so much earlier, and time and and effort could have been spent enacting safety protocols to follow. Hopefully those with such wisdom have been tirelessly working to see why and how it may occur more frequently between differing models/manufacturers instead of focusing on just one.. Could have cleared a lot of this up much sooner… |
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Quoted: I don't see how you refuse to equate reputational damage with lower sales. I'm not. Again, blaming Remington's demise on the Walker Settlement or Sandy Hook lawsuit ignores reality. The Walker Settlement cost Remington virtually nothing, replacing triggers or giving vouchers for use on their webstore. While the personal injury lawsuits awarded cash damages, they didn't cause the demise of Remington. In 2018 their Chapter 7 bankruptcy shed that debt....they exited that bankruptcy two months later. Any reputational damage began not with the Walker trigger, but with Cerberus Capitol Management buying Remington in 2007. The next ten years saw Cerberus saddle Remington with massive debt and cost cutting and subsequent lower quality. Thats what caused that reputational damage. Sales of bolt action rifles declined as sales of AR platform rifles increased. Even Cerberus knew that and its the reason they bought out Bushmaster & DPMS. The Sandy Hook lawsuits were paid by insurers AFTER Remington's assets were disposed by the bankruptcy court in 2020. |
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Quoted: No shit! The pants on head stupidity is astounding. Discharges immediately inserting firearms into holsters is a very well known proven fact. What causes those?-A trigger pull far enough to fire the gun. Happens in shooting competitions, etc, as well. Shirts, etc. Before now, most of the shooting community did not believe anything other than a trigger pull could cause the gun to fire. If your shirt or whatever snagged the trigger, but not enough to fire, you were safe. When you pulled out the firearm the trigger went back/no longer pulled. Now we know with certainty, that is not the case. Even with all the safeties designed for striker fired pistols, there is point at which all are defeated and simply bumping the gun can fire it. At what point that is from model to model is not yet clear. |
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Quoted: Discharges immediately inserting firearms into holsters is a very well known proven fact. What causes those?-A trigger pull far enough to fire the gun. Happens in shooting competitions, etc, as well. Shirts, etc. Quoted: Discharges immediately inserting firearms into holsters is a very well known proven fact. What causes those?-A trigger pull far enough to fire the gun. Happens in shooting competitions, etc, as well. Shirts, etc. No shit? Whouda thunk a trigger pull would cause a gun to fire. Before now, most of the shooting community did not believe anything other than a trigger pull could cause the gun to fire. Aw horseshit. I'm 68 and have known fo the last half century that some guns can fire when dropped. It. Ain't. New.  If your shirt or whatever snagged the trigger, but not enough to fire, you were safe. That there....is a genius level conclusion. Even with all the safeties designed for striker fired pistols, there is point at which all are defeated and simply bumping the gun can fire it. Can happen with hammer fired pistols as well. You should know that. Attached File |
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Quoted: No shit? Whouda thunk a trigger pull would cause a gun to fire. Aw horseshit. I'm 68 and have known fo the last half century that some guns can fire when dropped. It. Ain't. New. That there....is a genius level conclusion. Can happen with hammer fired pistols as well. You should know that. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/TrumpThicc-466.gif The number of incidents that cannot be explained are diminishing. Where before most folks could not understand how a pistol in a holster could be fired without a trigger pull being the only input, it is now completely verified/repeatable for all to see. No need to disassemble the gun, remove parts, etc. The question still unanswered is the variance from gun to gun and manufacturer. But we have verifiable/repeatable evidence it is a real iasue. Was it already known? Basically, yes, due to the design, but not specifically this aspect of it. And how much trigger pull does it take to disable all the safety features enough to -bump- fire? Edit for: no matter ones age or existing knowledge base, there is always room for learning. We are always gaining new general info which can help lead to the specifics to help in safety. |
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Quoted: Discharges immediately inserting firearms into holsters is a very well known proven fact. What causes those?-A trigger pull far enough to fire the gun. Happens in shooting competitions, etc, as well. Shirts, etc. Before now, most of the shooting community did not believe anything other than a trigger pull could cause the gun to fire. If your shirt or whatever snagged the trigger, but not enough to fire, you were safe. When you pulled out the firearm the trigger went back/no longer pulled. Now we know with certainty, that is not the case. Even with all the safeties designed for striker fired pistols, there is point at which all are defeated and simply bumping the gun can fire it. At what point that is from model to model is not yet clear. Quoted: Quoted: No shit! The pants on head stupidity is astounding. Discharges immediately inserting firearms into holsters is a very well known proven fact. What causes those?-A trigger pull far enough to fire the gun. Happens in shooting competitions, etc, as well. Shirts, etc. Before now, most of the shooting community did not believe anything other than a trigger pull could cause the gun to fire. If your shirt or whatever snagged the trigger, but not enough to fire, you were safe. When you pulled out the firearm the trigger went back/no longer pulled. Now we know with certainty, that is not the case. Even with all the safeties designed for striker fired pistols, there is point at which all are defeated and simply bumping the gun can fire it. At what point that is from model to model is not yet clear.  This is the dumbest "revelation" in the history of all firearms discussion I've read here. Guns fire when the trigger is pulled. That's the expectation. That's what firearms are supposed to do. If something is pulling the trigger at a time when it's not supposed to be pulled, that something is the problem, not the firearm. Use a holster that fits the firearm properly, and verify the holster is clear before holstering the firearm, and it's a non issue. |
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Should we just put him on ignore if moderation isn’t able to remove obvious trolling? It’s pretty blatant. Nobody trying to understand can fail so badly if they have their mental faculties intact. I refuse to believe anyone who can input sentences can be so incredibly deficient. Edit: I am putting it on ignore because it isn’t worth a moment of consideration and his condition isn’t going to get better in our lifetimes. |
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Quoted: Should we just put him on ignore if moderation isn’t able to remove obvious trolling? It’s pretty blatant. Nobody trying to understand can fail so badly if they have their mental faculties intact. I refuse to believe anyone who can input sentences can be so incredibly deficient. Edit: I am putting it on ignore because it isn’t worth a moment of consideration and his condition isn’t going to get better in our lifetimes. All one has to do is use self control and not have a ND with their keyboard. 
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Quoted: All one has to do is use self control and not have a ND with their keyboard. Quoted: Quoted: Should we just put him on ignore if moderation isn’t able to remove obvious trolling? It’s pretty blatant. Nobody trying to understand can fail so badly if they have their mental faculties intact. I refuse to believe anyone who can input sentences can be so incredibly deficient. Edit: I am putting it on ignore because it isn’t worth a moment of consideration and his condition isn’t going to get better in our lifetimes. All one has to do is use self control and not have a ND with their keyboard. Or quit letting people with an obvious agenda troll the thread by endlessly posting nonsense. Does anyone believe he actually believes what he’s saying is true? I don’t. It’s stupid. |
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Quoted: Or quit letting people with an obvious agenda troll the thread by endlessly posting nonsense. Does anyone believe he actually believes what he’s saying is true? I don’t. It’s stupid. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should we just put him on ignore if moderation isn’t able to remove obvious trolling? It’s pretty blatant. Nobody trying to understand can fail so badly if they have their mental faculties intact. I refuse to believe anyone who can input sentences can be so incredibly deficient. Edit: I am putting it on ignore because it isn’t worth a moment of consideration and his condition isn’t going to get better in our lifetimes. All one has to do is use self control and not have a ND with their keyboard. Or quit letting people with an obvious agenda troll the thread by endlessly posting nonsense. Does anyone believe he actually believes what he’s saying is true? I don’t. It’s stupid. Dude, this isn't tech. This is General Discussion. |
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Quoted: Sig is totally right. The Airman who was shot and killed by his P320 that was in a holster on the counter is just looking for a payout. Anyone who doesn’t believe that is anti 2A. Might want to catch up on the news buddy. You're behind, whether uniformed or an intentional SIG paid thread slider, we'll figure out soon. |
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Quoted: At the gun show today a guy tried to trade in his P320 with case and 5 mags. Dealer offered him $150. Quoted: Quoted: Looks like GT Distributors is dumping their stock on GunBroker. Multiple NIB P320 auctions for $299.99, ending in hours, with zero bids. At the gun show today a guy tried to trade in his P320 with case and 5 mags. Dealer offered him $150. $30 for a used magazine seems high. New MecGars run less than that. |
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Quoted: Or quit letting people with an obvious agenda troll the thread by endlessly posting nonsense. Does anyone believe he actually believes what he’s saying is true? I don’t. It’s stupid. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Should we just put him on ignore if moderation isn’t able to remove obvious trolling? It’s pretty blatant. Nobody trying to understand can fail so badly if they have their mental faculties intact. I refuse to believe anyone who can input sentences can be so incredibly deficient. Edit: I am putting it on ignore because it isn’t worth a moment of consideration and his condition isn’t going to get better in our lifetimes. All one has to do is use self control and not have a ND with their keyboard. Or quit letting people with an obvious agenda troll the thread by endlessly posting nonsense. Does anyone believe he actually believes what he’s saying is true? I don’t. It’s stupid. There is a triangle with the "!" in it so you can report the post if it is a big deal for you. |
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Quoted: If something foreign has pulled the trigger so far that it's hanging on by even less seat engagement remaining than there is slide/frame clearance, doesn't it seem reasonable that bumping it would just as easily just finish pulling the trigger? You're making a distinction without a difference. Pistols fire when they lose sear engagement. If a pistol, of any type, has extremely diminished sear engagement from any cause, it can be fired by bumping. Why is a P320 losing sear engagement? That's the question, and it needs to be answered in a way that is not applicable to other pistols because other pistols are not randomly firing in holsters across the country on a regular basis with no clearly identifiable cause. If stuff is getting into the trigger area of the holster and firing the pistol in all or practically all of these incidents, why is it that nobody can ever find that stuff after the fact? Surely some YouTube in the last 10 years has done a "torture test" video where they pack a 320 with sand, mud, whatever and try to shoot it. We've all seen these kind of videos. You'd think if gunk getting around the sear and preventing full enagement was a problem, it would have popped up in one of these videos. And maybe it did but at the time it was brushed off and forgotten as one of those kind of failures that no one would expect because they aren't packing their guns with mud. |
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I'm sure this video has been seen, but go to 3:30 in the video and I think this shows an important distinction. The slide to frame fit (at least on THIS particular P320) is sloppy as hell. He compares it to $200 G3 with virtually no slop. I even grabbed my Hellcat and checked it, and it has no slop. Still, even he is having to pull the trigger back for this "manipulation" to make the gun go off...which as pointed out previously, happens with other striker fired pistols to some degree or other. Still doesn't account for how someone's holster is causing the trigger to be partially pulled back, or account for videos where the gun goes off with no finger or anything on the trigger. I still think the design (with the sear in the frame and the striker mechanism in the slide) coupled with the slop plays some role.  SIG P320 Un Commanded Discharge and its Repeatable |
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Quoted: I'm sure this video has been seen, but go to 3:30 in the video and I think this shows an important distinction. The slide to frame fit (at least on THIS particular P320) is sloppy as hell. He compares it to $200 G3 with virtually no slop. I even grabbed my Hellcat and checked it, and it has no slop. Still, even he is having to pull the trigger back for this "manipulation" to make the gun go off...which as pointed out previously, happens with other striker fired pistols to some degree or other. Still doesn't account for how someone's holster is causing the trigger to be partially pulled back, or account for videos where the gun goes off with no finger or anything on the trigger. I still think the design (with the sear in the frame and the striker mechanism in the slide) coupled with the slop plays some role.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPkThe design has quite minimal sear to striker contact compared to other striker fired guns. Couple that with a few undersized MIM parts passing through Indian QC and the movement of three assemblies (slide, FCU and grip) instead of two. Subject it to torquing and impact events and it's a recipe for disaster. |
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Quoted: The design has quite minimal sear to striker contact compared to other striker fired guns. Couple that with a few undersized MIM parts passing through Indian QC and the movement of three assemblies (slide, FCU and grip) instead of two. Subject it to torquing and impact events and it's a recipe for disaster. Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure this video has been seen, but go to 3:30 in the video and I think this shows an important distinction. The slide to frame fit (at least on THIS particular P320) is sloppy as hell. He compares it to $200 G3 with virtually no slop. I even grabbed my Hellcat and checked it, and it has no slop. Still, even he is having to pull the trigger back for this "manipulation" to make the gun go off...which as pointed out previously, happens with other striker fired pistols to some degree or other. Still doesn't account for how someone's holster is causing the trigger to be partially pulled back, or account for videos where the gun goes off with no finger or anything on the trigger. I still think the design (with the sear in the frame and the striker mechanism in the slide) coupled with the slop plays some role. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPkThe design has quite minimal sear to striker contact compared to other striker fired guns. Couple that with a few undersized MIM parts passing through Indian QC and the movement of three assemblies (slide, FCU and grip) instead of two. Subject it to torquing and impact events and it's a recipe for disaster. But only very occasionally. It's very unlikely YOUR testicle will be shot off. |
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Quoted: Man thats cold Quoted: Quoted: At the gun show today a guy tried to trade in his P320 with case and 5 mags. Dealer offered him $150. Man thats cold But reasonable. Looking at closed auctions on GB, used ones are going for under $200, new base models $300, and higher end versions about half of what they were six months ago. Plenty that you would have considered a great price in the past are ending with no bids. |
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I'm trying to catch up with this thread, but I can't find the block of posts where it was discussed. What ever came of the second Airman who got in trouble for concealing information, or whatever in relation to the desk sergeant's death? Is the P320 still thought to be at fault? |
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Quoted:I'm trying to catch up with this thread, but I can't find the block of posts where it was discussed. What ever came of the second Airman who got in trouble for concealing information, or whatever in relation to the desk sergeant's death? Is the P320 still thought to be at fault? |
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Quoted: I don't think they've released shit since the charges. Quoted: Quoted:I'm trying to catch up with this thread, but I can't find the block of posts where it was discussed. What ever came of the second Airman who got in trouble for concealing information, or whatever in relation to the desk sergeant's death? Is the P320 still thought to be at fault? I'm reading this page, and one guy is getting roasted for referring to the Airman's death. Can someone catch me up in 5 sentences what the current thought about that incident is? |
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Quoted: But reasonable. Looking at closed auctions on GB, used ones are going for under $200, new base models $300, and higher end versions about half of what they were six months ago. Plenty that you would have considered a great price in the past are ending with no bids. If they get down to $200 consistently I will pick up a couple more... |
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Quoted: I'm reading this page, and one guy is getting roasted for referring to the Airman's death. Can someone catch me up in 5 sentences what the current thought about that incident is? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:I'm trying to catch up with this thread, but I can't find the block of posts where it was discussed. What ever came of the second Airman who got in trouble for concealing information, or whatever in relation to the desk sergeant's death? Is the P320 still thought to be at fault? I'm reading this page, and one guy is getting roasted for referring to the Airman's death. Can someone catch me up in 5 sentences what the current thought about that incident is? Lawyer types - I think sig suing the ranges is stupid, but think they’d have a valid case agains the department of the Air Force or something? I can’t imagine how many dollars can be tied directly to this incident, and USAF being slow to clarify what happened isn’t helping matters for them. |
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Quoted: You may be right but if so that would be a shame. My P220 and P226 are awesome, to lose the manufacturer of those would be a loss. My P220 and P226 are West German. No real Sigs have been produced since manufacturing left Germany (not counting the OG Swiss Sigs). |
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Quoted: Lawyer types - I think sig suing the ranges is stupid, but think they’d have a valid case agains the department of the Air Force or something? I can’t imagine how many dollars can be tied directly to this incident, and USAF being slow to clarify what happened isn’t helping matters for them. 1. Very difficult to sue the gov. 2. Nothing the USAF has done even goes into the realm of unreasonable. There was an incident, they put a hold on the use of the gun, they've charged somebody but haven't finalized a report. No judge or jury is going to award damages based on that. |
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Quoted:1. Very difficult to sue the gov. 2. Nothing the USAF has done even goes into the realm of unreasonable. There was an incident, they put a hold on the use of the gun, they've charged somebody but haven't finalized a report. No judge or jury is going to award damages based on that. Sucks for sig though I just see posts on Reddit with ranges banning the 320 now explicitly citing the usaf incident post-charges. Seems silly when it’s looking less likely that it was “magic sig go boom”. |