[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 131 of 142)
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Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. |
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Quoted: The video shows otherwise. It shows 100 percent repeatable slide/frame manipulation of multiple glocks that did not have -complete- trigger pull. Quoted: Quoted: In Glock for instance, If you pull a trigger somehow to get it to 95% or better, then have enough slide play it is feasible the striker would release. The striker block would catch it however because it works. This isn't what is happening with the 320 and to make the leap is disingenuous at best. Glock has a ramp that brings the trigger bar back up and forward with striker spring pressure if you "prep" the trigger by pulling it to almost firing and then release it. It will go right back to where it was when you racked the slide. It does not and cannot sit there after that in some hair trigger situation. It cannot fire without a direct pull to release of the trigger. The cruciform will not and cannot release the striker without a complete trigger pull. Period. And again, since the striker block actually works the system is redundant and safe. The video shows otherwise. It shows 100 percent repeatable slide/frame manipulation of multiple glocks that did not have -complete- trigger pull. This insane theory was conjured up by that soy soaked dude with his screw and his millimeters. It remains some of the most retarded clickbait anyone has ever put on the internet. It depends on something accidentally pulling the trigger so far back that it is holding the trigger in a nearly fully pulled state, and then something bumping the slide while that trigger is in that almost fully pulled state when the slide/frame clearance exceeds remaining sear engagement, so that you can make the pistol fire by that bump and not a “full” (just like 90%+ pulled) trigger pull. Doesn’t it seem more likely that instead of something foreign pulling the trigger almost all the way, but not all the way, and holding it in that state so that you can “bump fire” the pistol… that it would have just accidentally pulled the trigger? Could this in theory happen? I guess, but the root cause is that something pulled your trigger 90%+ to completion creating practically no remaining sear engagement. It would be such an exceedingly rare event to be unworthy of consideration, and doesn’t explain what is wrong with a P320, because if this fantasy scenario was the cause it would be happening with other striker fired autos. It is not, though. |
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Quoted: Not all holster issues can clearly be seen during holstering. The striker fired issue is real. Again, this does not exonerate Sig. It does show a 100 percent repeatable issue with the striker fired design. Something obviously not fully understood until recently. Quoted: Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. Not all holster issues can clearly be seen during holstering. The striker fired issue is real. Again, this does not exonerate Sig. It does show a 100 percent repeatable issue with the striker fired design. Something obviously not fully understood until recently. I haven’t worked in a gun shop since 2014. We knew about this back then. It was just seen as a “huh, that’s a funny little quirk” because the only time it would ever really matter is if you were trying to remove all pre-travel and create a “hair trigger”. It isn’t widely publicized because it doesn’t matter to 99.9% of users. |
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Quoted: I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. Quoted: Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. Pull/push the slide and frame apart a few times and any debris sitting in that area could potentially fall down keeping the gap that was just created. Is this 100% what's happening, no idea. But it's the most plausible explanation I've seen. I don't have enough 320s to replicate it in anything approaching a scientific standard. It could also be one of many different things happening to cause uncommanded discharges. |
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Quoted: Not all holster issues can clearly be seen during holstering. The striker fired issue is real. Again, this does not exonerate Sig. It does show a 100 percent repeatable issue with the striker fired design. Something obviously not fully understood until recently. Quoted: Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. Not all holster issues can clearly be seen during holstering. The striker fired issue is real. Again, this does not exonerate Sig. It does show a 100 percent repeatable issue with the striker fired design. Something obviously not fully understood until recently. With striker fired designs using a striker in the slide. It's possible to create a semi-automatic pistol w/ a striker sliding on rails in the frame, independent of the slide. I'm not aware of anyone ever having done so, but there's no reason it can't be done. |
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Quoted: With striker fired designs using a striker in the slide. It's possible to create a semi-automatic pistol w/ a striker sliding on rails in the frame, independent of the slide. I'm not aware of anyone ever having done so, but there's no reason it can't be done. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. Not all holster issues can clearly be seen during holstering. The striker fired issue is real. Again, this does not exonerate Sig. It does show a 100 percent repeatable issue with the striker fired design. Something obviously not fully understood until recently. With striker fired designs using a striker in the slide. It's possible to create a semi-automatic pistol w/ a striker sliding on rails in the frame, independent of the slide. I'm not aware of anyone ever having done so, but there's no reason it can't be done. Essentially a linear hammer type of system? Yeah, I guess you could, and maybe there is a potential advantage in it, but it wouldn’t be because separated are problematic. They’ve been working fine for decades in the millions of units produced. Wyoming Soy Project has people chasing a wild goose. |
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Quoted: I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. To reinforce what was said above, the theory is that the slide/frame slop pulls the striker up and down, each time allowing a bit more crud to wedge between the striker and sear. Seems extremely plausible. And none of the Glock issues you mentioned involved the gun going off when it wasn't supposed to. Completely different situations that invalidate any "whataboutisms" to defend the P320. And the MSP pistol showed other ways the striker block can fail outside of crud or improper install, and not only that, but can fail over time even if functioning properly at the beginning. There are also multiple other confirmed ways the striker block can fail out there in the world. Why you would carry a gun with a problem like this that can indeed develop over time is beyond me, but you do you. 
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Quoted: You do understand this is how guns work, right? You pull the trigger and they fire? Yes. I also understand it occurs a lot in ad/nd. Most folks do. I simply do not have an emotional interest in this matter. Just pointing out 100 percent verifiable issues. Not conjecture, not what is hoped for, not what is speculated, but rather a 100 percent truth. Again, the video and 100 percent verifiable and repeatable proof/evidence does not exonerate sig. Is there a 100 percent verifiable reason for an ad/nd with a striker fired gun that is in a holster with debris in it, a shirt/garment, some other device/object, or holster fitment issue that pulls the trigger some? Yes. But it also does not mean it is 100 percent what happens all the time in all the incidents. It is what it is, though, and cannot be denied. The 320 drop issue had a 100 percent verifiable/repeatable issue. We still do not have that for the issue at hand - some folks truly believe a 320 can go off with a round chambered simply by being bumped. We do not have any 100 percent verifiable/repeatable evidence of it. At least not yet. The 320 has a light, easy to pull trigger. Like a short double action pull, not a sudden break. It also has a thin trigger guard and no trigger safety/dingus. Hence it can have more ad/nd than others. Again, this does not exonerate sig. It is just pointing out facts. Edit for: the video clearly shows it is not just a 320 issue, it is a striker fired issue all around. Makes one really think about the early days of striker fired ad/nd/ud when holsters and equipment were not as technologically advanced as now… |
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Quoted: I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. Quoted: Quoted: And that can clearly be demonstrated that something was interfering with the trigger. Something that can clearly be seen and navigated around during holstering if proper care is taken. The Sig doesn't need that. It can have unseen debris build up on the sear ledge and not require anything at all to interact with the trigger but still have the same effect as if the trigger is being partially pulled. Something that no other striker fired gun suffers from. I'm curious as to exactly HOW unseen debris gets between the sear ledge and striker. When holstered there is not a gap that dirt can simply force its way in there and separate the ledge from striker. The striker is resting on the ledge. No gap. Nothing is PUSHING the dirt into that microscopic crack except people with cut up feeler gauges giving their P320s an anal probe. If you rack the slide the tail of the striker comes back further than the sear interface and actively scrapes crud off the ledge and pushes it forward into the interface area. It doesn't somehow skip over the crud. Look at the rub marks on the ledge of a well worn 320 or look at the area after a good day at the range. There will be a shiny metallic area scraped clean of debris. Another test would be to put some Dykem (or a BLUE sharpie) on the ledge and hand cycle it a few times. As for the striker safety, I still think we are looking at two separate issues. One is dirt and crud from lack of maintenance causing the striker block to stick upward ESPECIALLY if the user leaves out the return spring. The second is damage resulting from incorrect reassembly of the striker block into the striker body. It simply drops in with little to no force. If a user forces it (snaps it into place) then it could be damaged. Learn how to reassemble the parts properly. The biggest issue I think we should be focusing on is the slide to frame slop. My P320 has almost no slop. It's about as tight as my P226. Some of the pistols in the guntuber videos have an unreal amount of movement. As to the video demonstrating slide to frame play, remember that GLOCK had a voluntary program to upgrade gen 1 pistols due to the DEA frisbee test showing that the rear rails on the early pistols would completely let go rendering the pistol inoperative. Then they had to redesign it again going from gen 2 to gen 3 because the frame flex during recoil of 40 S&W pistols was causing strange wear patterns. The more hours I spend examining my P320, the more confidence I have in my particular example. It passes all these guntuber tests. When holstered is when it is especially prone to this failure mode. The pistol is existing in the real world where debris exists being carried around, the back end of the pistol is facing up so all the holes in the back of the slide are open to contaminants due to simple gravity, and the striker tail and sear form what I’ve been calling a “V trap” which is facing up towards that opening at the back of the slide and there is nowhere for it to really fall out of the way. The only place it really can fall beyond that would be on top of the striker block safety lever where it can also help in wedging up the striker block safety. This scenario fits exactly the scenario we see. Holstered pistols being carried in the wild, firing during normal movements, in a way which is not repeatable after the fact during examination in lab conditions, and affects specifically the P320 and not other common pistols. |
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Quoted: When holstered is when it is especially prone to this failure mode. The pistol is existing in the real world where debris exists being carried around, the back end of the pistol is facing up so all the holes in the back of the slide are open to contaminants due to simple gravity, and the striker tail and sear form what I’ve been calling a “V trap” which is facing up towards that opening at the back of the slide and there is nowhere for it to really fall out of the way. The only place it really can fall beyond that would be on top of the striker block safety lever where it can also help in wedging up the striker block safety. This scenario fits exactly the scenario we see. Holstered pistols being carried in the wild, firing during normal movements, in a way which is not repeatable after the fact during examination in lab conditions, and affects specifically the P320 and not other common pistols. If that were true, it could be replicated easily without disassembling a gun. Load it with a primed case, introduce debris, tap the slide frame. Maybe I missed that video.. |
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Quoted: If that were true, it could be replicated easily without disassembling a gun. Load it with a primed case, introduce debris, tap the slide frame. Maybe I missed that video.. Quoted: Quoted: When holstered is when it is especially prone to this failure mode. The pistol is existing in the real world where debris exists being carried around, the back end of the pistol is facing up so all the holes in the back of the slide are open to contaminants due to simple gravity, and the striker tail and sear form what I've been calling a "V trap" which is facing up towards that opening at the back of the slide and there is nowhere for it to really fall out of the way. The only place it really can fall beyond that would be on top of the striker block safety lever where it can also help in wedging up the striker block safety. This scenario fits exactly the scenario we see. Holstered pistols being carried in the wild, firing during normal movements, in a way which is not repeatable after the fact during examination in lab conditions, and affects specifically the P320 and not other common pistols. If that were true, it could be replicated easily without disassembling a gun. Load it with a primed case, introduce debris, tap the slide frame. Maybe I missed that video.. |
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Quoted: You did. VeryAverage and MischiefMachine both were able to get it to happen. So, let me get this right. I just watched that video again, mischief machine video where he removed the firing pin safety, and had an aftermarket trigger installed. Are we to believe that is somehow a stock p320 with all oe parts that failed? No. That is not an actual verifiable repeatable issue with a factory p320. So far, it still appears no one has… |
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If someone shoves a gun into their holster and it goes off immediately, versus it going off later from simply being bumped. This was never really considered a possibility in the past. We now know with 100 percent certainty that the striker fired platform can fire without the trigger fully pulled due to the slop in slide/frame fitment. The same issue that can cause a firearm to discharge immediately in a holster, has now been proven with 100 percent certainty can occur in a delayed manner with a striker fired gun. And we also know with certainty it can occur more frequently with some models versus others due to trigger guards and trigger design. Again, this does not exonerate sig. |
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Quoted: So, let me get this right. I just watched that video again, mischief machine video where he removed the firing pin safety, and had an aftermarket trigger installed. Are we to believe that is somehow a stock p320 with all oe parts that failed? No. That is not an actual verifiable repeatable issue with a factory p320. So far, it still appears no one has… Quoted: Quoted: You did. VeryAverage and MischiefMachine both were able to get it to happen. So, let me get this right. I just watched that video again, mischief machine video where he removed the firing pin safety, and had an aftermarket trigger installed. Are we to believe that is somehow a stock p320 with all oe parts that failed? No. That is not an actual verifiable repeatable issue with a factory p320. So far, it still appears no one has… On one specific pistol. We know from the FBI report, as well as just the general build of the striker block safety, that the striker block safety is not reliable particularly if the pistol experiences torquing movements as pistols often do when being carried in a holster. We also see that from the “punch test” which has been demonstrated by Three P320s In A Trench Coat. The striker block safety has been verified to not function optimally in some pistols. In my demonstration, in which I was not otherwise manipulating the pistol, my striker block safety worked in that instance. In the FBI investigation the one in those two pistols worked intermittently depending on outside influence. We know that on at least some pistols sear movement back feeds to cause striker block safety lever movement in the FCU which further compounds the issue. We do know that both one large piece of debris or many small pieces of debris can cause a sear trip, and that the secondary sear is intermittent at best in its effectiveness in the instance of a debris-initiated sear trip. I’ve got a half hour long slideshow that goes through all this in detail if you’d prefer. I can’t say any specific P320 had a UD. I think we can easily demonstrate that there are a series of ways the design is prone to multiple intermittent failures that can potentially result in a UD in circumstances which do not affect other pistols and won’t be inherently repeatable on the same pistol which previously did it. In essence, some of these pistols are a slot machine… keep pulling the lever and eventually you hit the jackpot. Pull it again and you get nothing. |
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Quoted: We now know with 100 percent certainty that the striker fired platform can fire without the trigger fully pulled due to the slop in slide/frame fitment. |
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Quoted: On one specific pistol. We know from the FBI report, as well as just the general build of the striker block safety, that the striker block safety is not reliable particularly if the pistol experiences torquing movements as pistols often do when being carried in a holster. We also see that from the “punch test” which has been demonstrated by Three P320s In A Trench Coat. The striker block safety has been verified to not function optimally in some pistols. In my demonstration, in which I was not otherwise manipulating the pistol, my striker block safety worked in that instance. In the FBI investigation the one in those two pistols worked intermittently depending on outside influence. We know that on at least some pistols sear movement back feeds to cause striker block safety lever movement in the FCU which further compounds the issue. We do know that both one large piece of debris or many small pieces of debris can cause a sear trip, and that the secondary sear is intermittent at best in its effectiveness in the instance of a debris-initiated sear trip. I’ve got a half hour long slideshow that goes through all this in detail if you’d prefer. I can’t say any specific P320 had a UD. I think we can easily demonstrate that there are a series of ways the design is prone to multiple intermittent failures that can potentially result in a UD in circumstances which do not affect other pistols and won’t be inherently repeatable on the same pistol which previously did it. In essence, some of these pistols are a slot machine… keep pulling the lever and eventually you hit the jackpot. Pull it again and you get nothing. So, basically you acknowledge that there is zero definitive proof of a true ud in a p320. If there was proof, it could be duplicated/repeatable like the p320 drop issue could be. We do have 100 percent duplicated/repeatable proof that the striker fired design can fire without fully pulling the trigger with stock firearms across multiple manufacturers. That we now know for sure. An issue that was never deemed possible, has now been fully proven. A verifiable/repeatable issue. |
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Quoted: We always knew that, it's inherent to the design. There's only one design where it's an actual issue. Quoted: Quoted: We now know with 100 percent certainty that the striker fired platform can fire without the trigger fully pulled due to the slop in slide/frame fitment. Exactly. It’s more of an “aspect” of striker fired pistols than it is an “issue”. It just has to be taken into consideration in design to be certain there is sufficient sear engagement to exceed slide/frame clearance and allow a safety margin. It has never been an “issue”, it has never been a problem, in the past… 155 years? We didn’t just suddenly notice it causing issues while ignoring it for a few generations. |
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Quoted: We always knew that, it's inherent to the design. There's only one design where it's an actual issue. But is it truly just one design? Some folks do not remember the early days of striker fired guns and the stories of holster pops/glock leg…. The fact is, it exists and has now been proven/duplicated. |
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Quoted: So, basically you acknowledge that there is zero definitive proof of a true ud in a p320. If there was proof, it could be duplicated/repeatable like the p320 drop issue could be. We do have 100 percent duplicated/repeatable proof that the striker fired design can fire without fully pulling the trigger with stock firearms across multiple manufacturers. That we now know for sure. An issue that was never deemed possible, has now been fully proven. A verifiable/repeatable issue. Quoted: Quoted: On one specific pistol. We know from the FBI report, as well as just the general build of the striker block safety, that the striker block safety is not reliable particularly if the pistol experiences torquing movements as pistols often do when being carried in a holster. We also see that from the “punch test” which has been demonstrated by Three P320s In A Trench Coat. The striker block safety has been verified to not function optimally in some pistols. In my demonstration, in which I was not otherwise manipulating the pistol, my striker block safety worked in that instance. In the FBI investigation the one in those two pistols worked intermittently depending on outside influence. We know that on at least some pistols sear movement back feeds to cause striker block safety lever movement in the FCU which further compounds the issue. We do know that both one large piece of debris or many small pieces of debris can cause a sear trip, and that the secondary sear is intermittent at best in its effectiveness in the instance of a debris-initiated sear trip. I’ve got a half hour long slideshow that goes through all this in detail if you’d prefer. I can’t say any specific P320 had a UD. I think we can easily demonstrate that there are a series of ways the design is prone to multiple intermittent failures that can potentially result in a UD in circumstances which do not affect other pistols and won’t be inherently repeatable on the same pistol which previously did it. In essence, some of these pistols are a slot machine… keep pulling the lever and eventually you hit the jackpot. Pull it again and you get nothing. So, basically you acknowledge that there is zero definitive proof of a true ud in a p320. If there was proof, it could be duplicated/repeatable like the p320 drop issue could be. We do have 100 percent duplicated/repeatable proof that the striker fired design can fire without fully pulling the trigger with stock firearms across multiple manufacturers. That we now know for sure. An issue that was never deemed possible, has now been fully proven. A verifiable/repeatable issue. Never deemed possible by who? I personally knew of this as why you can’t remove all the pre-travel out of a Glock trigger over a decade ago. Other people did, as well. It wasn’t a secret, it just wasn’t and isn’t a problem. |
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Quoted: So, basically you acknowledge that there is zero definitive proof of a true ud in a p320. If there was proof, it could be duplicated/repeatable like the p320 drop issue could be. We do have 100 percent duplicated/repeatable proof that the striker fired design can fire without fully pulling the trigger with stock firearms across multiple manufacturers. That we now know for sure. An issue that was never deemed possible, has now been fully proven. A verifiable/repeatable issue. Quoted: Quoted: On one specific pistol. We know from the FBI report, as well as just the general build of the striker block safety, that the striker block safety is not reliable particularly if the pistol experiences torquing movements as pistols often do when being carried in a holster. We also see that from the “punch test” which has been demonstrated by Three P320s In A Trench Coat. The striker block safety has been verified to not function optimally in some pistols. In my demonstration, in which I was not otherwise manipulating the pistol, my striker block safety worked in that instance. In the FBI investigation the one in those two pistols worked intermittently depending on outside influence. We know that on at least some pistols sear movement back feeds to cause striker block safety lever movement in the FCU which further compounds the issue. We do know that both one large piece of debris or many small pieces of debris can cause a sear trip, and that the secondary sear is intermittent at best in its effectiveness in the instance of a debris-initiated sear trip. I’ve got a half hour long slideshow that goes through all this in detail if you’d prefer. I can’t say any specific P320 had a UD. I think we can easily demonstrate that there are a series of ways the design is prone to multiple intermittent failures that can potentially result in a UD in circumstances which do not affect other pistols and won’t be inherently repeatable on the same pistol which previously did it. In essence, some of these pistols are a slot machine… keep pulling the lever and eventually you hit the jackpot. Pull it again and you get nothing. So, basically you acknowledge that there is zero definitive proof of a true ud in a p320. If there was proof, it could be duplicated/repeatable like the p320 drop issue could be. We do have 100 percent duplicated/repeatable proof that the striker fired design can fire without fully pulling the trigger with stock firearms across multiple manufacturers. That we now know for sure. An issue that was never deemed possible, has now been fully proven. A verifiable/repeatable issue. I also just explained to you why it is a series of issues that are known to be intermittent all happening to coincide. It’s inherently not repeatable on a small scale. That’s the whole point. |
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Quoted: Probably not as much as you may think. There is new proof of something that has to be considered. Most folks are still absorbing what it truly means and what it may lead to. Quoted: Quoted: I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes a good question. Probably not as much as you may think. There is new proof of something that has to be considered. Most folks are still absorbing what it truly means and what it may lead to. New proof of what? It isn’t new. You just now learned of it. I know you’re trying to sound contemplative, philosophical, and intelligent, but you’re just showcasing lack of understanding. We’ve tried explaining it to you, but if you don’t want to understand we can’t help you. Of course you can pull the trigger and eventually make the sear engagement so diminished the pistol can fire… and it isn’t even just striker fired pistols. Do you want to carry a 1911 that is hanging on by only 0.001” of sear engagement? |
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Quoted: New proof of what? It isn’t new. You just now learned of it. Not personally, but for the general gun community, yes. Most folks fully believe striker fired guns cannot go off without the trigger fully pulled. Now they can see it. It was not as big of a known issue as say saa revolvers/older ruger Blackhawk’s, series 70 vs 80 1911 drop issue or even ARs. An explanation that can duplicated/repeatable is now known for holstered bump firings with stock guns across the striker fired platform. Most folks assumed it was not possible. |
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Quoted: New proof of what? It isn’t new. You just now learned of it. I know you’re trying to sound contemplative, philosophical, and intelligent, but you’re just showcasing lack of understanding. We’ve tried explaining it to you, but if you don’t want to understand we can’t help you. Of course you can pull the trigger and eventually make the sear engagement so diminished the pistol can fire… and it isn’t even just striker fired pistols. Do you want to carry a 1911 that is hanging on by only 0.001” of sear engagement? A lot of folks still miss the point. But thanks for the enlightening added comments in your reply. |
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Quoted: Can't watch But it seems any gun can go off with the right circumstances That being said. The overwhelming number of UDs are 320 Not shared across all strikers Mainly the 320 Quoted: Quoted: https://youtu.be/L17Mq7XxtlE The slop present in slide to frame fit in ALL striker fired guns. 100 percent verified and repeatable. ALL striker fired guns can do this. While some used screws in 320s only, there is now proof of a striker design issue. The slop between frame and slide varies gun to gun but is very real. So, one can holster their striker fired handgun, and if the trigger is pulled back far enough by debris or even the molded holster itself - a now known, verified, repeatable condition is present. While the gun does not go off immediately, outside factors/manipulation other than trigger pull can fire the gun. This in no way exonerates sig. It does explain how -uncommanded discharges- can occur in ANY striker fired handgun, especially when holstered and no one has their finger on the trigger, but is bumped around/moved slightly. Makes one wonder about all the ad/nd/ud type discharges years ago before holsters were as advanced as they are today. Can't watch But it seems any gun can go off with the right circumstances That being said. The overwhelming number of UDs are 320 Not shared across all strikers Mainly the 320 I think it's more accurately stated like this: Any gun can be modified or manipulated to be an unsafe firearm. It seems at least some of the P-320s are unsafe from the factory, or are very easily made unsafe in common circumstances. |
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Quoted: A good question is this. Without 100 percent certainty only a full trigger pull can fire a gun, what percentage is acceptable for carrying a striker fired gun appendix carry…. A better question is this: Does my trigger safety prevent 99% of inadvertent trigger movement that defeats my striker safety, in case my sear slips? |
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Quoted: https://youtu.be/L17Mq7XxtlE The slop present in slide to frame fit in ALL striker fired guns. 100 percent verified and repeatable. ALL striker fired guns can do this. While some used screws in 320s only, there is now proof of a striker design issue. The slop between frame and slide varies gun to gun but is very real. So, one can holster their striker fired handgun, and if the trigger is pulled back far enough by debris or even the molded holster itself - a now known, verified, repeatable condition is present. While the gun does not go off immediately, outside factors/manipulation other than trigger pull can fire the gun. This in no way exonerates sig. It does explain how -uncommanded discharges- can occur in ANY striker fired handgun, especially when holstered and no one has their finger on the trigger, but is bumped around/moved slightly. Makes one wonder about all the ad/nd/ud type discharges years ago before holsters were as advanced as they are today. The P320 has other problems unrelated to this. |
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Quoted: A lot of folks still miss the point. But thanks for the enlightening added comments in your reply. Quoted: Quoted: New proof of what? It isn’t new. You just now learned of it. I know you’re trying to sound contemplative, philosophical, and intelligent, but you’re just showcasing lack of understanding. We’ve tried explaining it to you, but if you don’t want to understand we can’t help you. Of course you can pull the trigger and eventually make the sear engagement so diminished the pistol can fire… and it isn’t even just striker fired pistols. Do you want to carry a 1911 that is hanging on by only 0.001” of sear engagement? A lot of folks still miss the point. But thanks for the enlightening added comments in your reply. What point? There is no point to this abjectly asinine mental masturbation you’re engaged in… are you even reading your own statements? If this “issue” is an “issue” why is it only an “issue” with the P320 and not over a century of other striker fired pistols? It isn’t an issue. It doesn’t matter. It’s a wild goose chase launched by a soy faced guntuber producing idiotic clickbait. It isn’t even new information. It’s been known for a long time, and it isn’t even surprising if you think about it for a few seconds. |
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I have no emotional connection with the issue. Obviously others do, as evidenced by multiple replies throughout this long thread. There is a known issue with striker fired guns that is not present in hammer fired. It has now been clearly shown in a video for all to see, including anyone who knew it before. It is clear evidence showing with 100 percent certainty that without fully pulling the trigger, a striker fired gun can fire simply by moving/adjusting the slide/frame fitment/position. It clearly shows how debris/shirts/holster design/other objects in a holster can pull the trigger enough to not initially fire when inserted, but fire with no further trigger movement later. Something that never came up with hammer fired guns. Something that was so rare to occur, it was potentially dismissed earlier. This does not mean it is the only issue striker fired firearms can have, but it is for certain a repeatable/verifiable proven issue that exists. There is no denying it, downplaying it, or mental gymnastics to dismiss it. Again, it in no way exonerates sig. The 320 has a light, easy to pull trigger that has no trigger safety/dingus and a thin trigger guard. It is easier to have an ad/nd with that model than some other manufacturers models. There is no other definitive repeatable evidence/proof, yet. But the good news is, we do have one proven verifiable repeatable explanation. It is a start. It is a shame how it initially came to light for the rest of the gun community to see that was not aware of it, though….. |
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A better way to put it. Pick any factory all original striker fired gun. Put it in a holster that has anything that pulls the trigger back just far enough, the gun will not fire - BUT will fire by bumping the slide/frame without any further trigger pull. It is a fact that cannot be denied, no matter the manufacturer. Some are more susceptible than others to this issue, no doubt. Could there be other issues? Yes, but none yet fully proven as the one mentioned. Simple. |
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Quoted: If you think about how they work, it's inevitable that pulling the trigger just the right amount will put the pistol in a state where manipulating the slide will cause the pistol to fire. The P320 (and many, but not all striker fired pistols) is designed so that the trigger pull first deactivates the striker safety, then forces the sear to lower. They all deactivate the striker safety before they lower the sear because if you lower the sear before you deactivate the striker safety the pistol will fail to fire. All pistols have some vertical slop in the slide/frame fit. Necessarily, there will be a point in the trigger stroke where the striker safety has been deactivated and the engagement between the sear and the striker has been reduced until it is less then the vertical slop in the slide. When the sear engagement is less than the vertical slop in the slide, lifting the rear of the slide (or pressing down on the front of the slide, which lifts the rear of the slide) will lift the striker off of the sear, firing the pistol. Glocks will do it, along with ever striker fired design that forces the sear down through trigger action. I think I was the first person to replicate it with a Glock, but several YouTubers have done so as well. Does that mean you shouldn't be concerned about the vertical slop in the slide? Maybe, maybe not. The follow up to the FBI test showed that how far something other than a trigger pull depresses the sear is a major factor in whether or not the striker block works. Bruce Gray's new video seems to make the same point (full disclosure: i havent watched it yet). More vertical slop could theoretically make it more likely that debris on top of the sear could push it down far enough to deactivate the striker block. I'd love to see testing on how far the sear can be depressed without deactivating the striker block. |
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Quoted: I have no emotional connection with the issue. Obviously others do, as evidenced by multiple replies throughout this long thread. There is a known issue with striker fired guns that is not present in hammer fired. It has now been clearly shown in a video for all to see, including anyone who knew it before. It is clear evidence showing with 100 percent certainty that without fully pulling the trigger, a striker fired gun can fire simply by moving/adjusting the slide/frame fitment/position. It clearly shows how debris/shirts/holster design/other objects in a holster can pull the trigger enough to not initially fire when inserted, but fire with no further trigger movement later. Something that never came up with hammer fired guns. Something that was so rare to occur, it was potentially dismissed earlier. This does not mean it is the only issue striker fired firearms can have, but it is for certain a repeatable/verifiable proven issue that exists. There is no denying it, downplaying it, or mental gymnastics to dismiss it. Again, it in no way exonerates sig. The 320 has a light, easy to pull trigger that has no trigger safety/dingus and a thin trigger guard. It is easier to have an ad/nd with that model than some other manufacturers models. There is no other definitive repeatable evidence/proof, yet. But the good news is, we do have one proven verifiable repeatable explanation. It is a start. It is a shame how it initially came to light for the rest of the gun community to see that was not aware of it, though….. I've got two things that are going to blow your mind. First, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull; or at least it is under some conditions. Second, this is an issue with hammer fired guns as well, they just require slightly different inputs to fire. To explain why those are full trigger pulls, think about how the gun works, and how the test differs from how the guns are actually used. In the test, the pistols fire when you push up on the rear of the slide (or down on the front of the slide, which is really the same thing because pushing the front of the slide down levers the back of the slide up). When you actually use a gun, you generally have a full magazine inserted. With a full magazine inserted, the top cartridge in the stack presses up on the bottom of the slide. If the slide is already pressed up, then pulling the trigger that distance will just fire the pistol. With a full mag, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull. Hammer fired guns won't have a point in their trigger stroke where they become sensitive to lifting the back of the slide, but they will have a point in their trigger stroke where they become extremely sensitive to impact. If you reduce a hammer fired pistol's sear engagement enough then bump it, it will drop the hammer. |
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Quoted: A better way to put it. Pick any factory all original striker fired gun. Put it in a holster that has anything that pulls the trigger back just far enough, the gun will not fire - BUT will fire by bumping the slide/frame without any further trigger pull. It is a fact that cannot be denied, no matter the manufacturer. Some are more susceptible than others to this issue, no doubt. Could there be other issues? Yes, but none yet fully proven as the one mentioned. Simple. So? All these resounding points you think you’re making don’t make any sense… you’re trying to argue striker fired pistols are inherently unsafe? We only just noticed because we’re racist against SIG? What is your point? I feel like I’m listening to a Kamala Harris speech. It’s just circular gobbly gook presented incoherently. It is full of contradictions. You aren’t arguing with basic reasoning. |
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Quoted: I've got two things that are going to blow your mind. First, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull; or at least it is under some conditions. Second, this is an issue with hammer fired guns as well, they just require slightly different inputs to fire. To explain why those are full trigger pulls, think about how the gun works, and how the test differs from how the guns are actually used. In the test, the pistols fire when you push up on the rear of the slide (or down on the front of the slide, which is really the same thing because pushing the front of the slide down levers the back of the slide up). When you actually use a gun, you generally have a full magazine inserted. With a full magazine inserted, the top cartridge in the stack presses up on the bottom of the slide. If the slide is already pressed up, then pulling the trigger that distance will just fire the pistol. With a full mag, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull. Hammer fired guns won't have a point in their trigger stroke where they become sensitive to lifting the back of the slide, but they will have a point in their trigger stroke where they become extremely sensitive to impact. If you reduce a hammer fired pistol's sear engagement enough then bump it, it will drop the hammer. While most of what you mention is correct, it does not change the issue of slop in slide to frame fit impacting striker fired guns. It varies gun to gun, and can change based on temperature, more so on differing materials. While hammer fired can fire with a hard enough bump during pull, the slide/frame slop has no impact whatsoever. It does in striker fired models. A full trigger pull fires the gun, no matter the distance. |
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Quoted: While most of what you mention is correct, it does not change the issue of slop in slide to frame fit impacting striker fired guns. It varies gun to gun, and can change based on temperature, more so on differing materials. Quoted: While most of what you mention is correct, it does not change the issue of slop in slide to frame fit impacting striker fired guns. It varies gun to gun, and can change based on temperature, more so on differing materials. So does sear/hammer engagement in hammer fired designs. Quoted: While hammer fired can fire with a hard enough bump during pull, the slide/frame slop has no impact whatsoever. It does in striker fired models. Ok, but who cares? If something pulls the trigger into the range where the gun is supposed to fire, then the gun is supposed to fire. In all these videos, the trigger is in the range where the gun is supposed to fire when slide manipulation causes it to fire. Quoted: A full trigger pull fires the gun, no matter the distance. Is the concept of overtravel just going to blow your mind? |
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Quoted: While most of what you mention is correct, it does not change the issue of slop in slide to frame fit impacting striker fired guns. It varies gun to gun, and can change based on temperature, more so on differing materials. While hammer fired can fire with a hard enough bump during pull, the slide/frame slop has no impact whatsoever. It does in striker fired models. A full trigger pull fires the gun, no matter the distance. Quoted: Quoted: I've got two things that are going to blow your mind. First, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull; or at least it is under some conditions. Second, this is an issue with hammer fired guns as well, they just require slightly different inputs to fire. To explain why those are full trigger pulls, think about how the gun works, and how the test differs from how the guns are actually used. In the test, the pistols fire when you push up on the rear of the slide (or down on the front of the slide, which is really the same thing because pushing the front of the slide down levers the back of the slide up). When you actually use a gun, you generally have a full magazine inserted. With a full magazine inserted, the top cartridge in the stack presses up on the bottom of the slide. If the slide is already pressed up, then pulling the trigger that distance will just fire the pistol. With a full mag, pulling the trigger that distance is a full trigger pull. Hammer fired guns won't have a point in their trigger stroke where they become sensitive to lifting the back of the slide, but they will have a point in their trigger stroke where they become extremely sensitive to impact. If you reduce a hammer fired pistol's sear engagement enough then bump it, it will drop the hammer. While most of what you mention is correct, it does not change the issue of slop in slide to frame fit impacting striker fired guns. It varies gun to gun, and can change based on temperature, more so on differing materials. While hammer fired can fire with a hard enough bump during pull, the slide/frame slop has no impact whatsoever. It does in striker fired models. A full trigger pull fires the gun, no matter the distance. Yes, if you pull the trigger the gun fires. I hate having to defend SIG, but you’re suddenly astonished by basic facts of firearms design that have been observed for decades. It’s only surprising to you. |
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It's a bullshit strawman argument to try to say, look look look, these do it to, but you have to pull the trigger 95% of the way to defeat its safeties for it to happen. The only problem is, if you take any of these guns, minus the shit 320, and throw them fully loaded against the wall multiple times they will NOT go off. Because they multiple safeties that function. Unlike the 320 that does NOT have a trigger safety and has a faulty firing pin block due to tolerance stacking because of poor qc. It's a stupid video that doesn't prove anything.
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Quoted: It's a bullshit strawman argument to try to say, look look look, these do it to, but you have to pull the trigger 95% of the way to defeat its safeties for it to happen. The only problem is, if you take any of these guns, minus the shit 320, and throw them fully loaded against the wall multiple times they will NOT go off. Because they multiple safeties that function. Unlike the 320 that does NOT have a trigger safety and has a faulty firing pin block due to tolerance stacking because of poor qc. It's a stupid video that doesn't prove anything. “All these other guns can be forced to do it if we almost fully pull the trigger, but even though none of them ever have for 150 years, that explains why they’re all equally guilty as SIG”… and somehow explains why it is only being noticed now and specifically only one SIG product? Some people have to be fake intellectuals and think they have some special insight nobody else can comprehend. |
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Quoted: To reinforce what was said above, the theory is that the slide/frame slop pulls the striker up and down, each time allowing a bit more crud to wedge between the striker and sear. Seems extremely plausible. Quoted: Edit for: the video clearly shows it is not just a 320 issue, it is a striker fired issue all around. Makes one really think about the early days of striker fired ad/nd/ud when holsters and equipment were not as technologically advanced as now… Quoted: But is it truly just one design? Some folks do not remember the early days of striker fired guns and the stories of holster pops/glock leg…. The fact is, it exists and has now been proven/duplicated. Quoted: […]any factory all original striker fired gun. Put it in a holster that has anything that pulls the trigger back just far enough, the gun will not fire - BUT will fire by bumping the slide/frame without any further trigger pull. It is a fact that cannot be denied, no matter the manufacturer. […] Simple. |
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Quoted: People in this thread are saying that if a P320 trigger is pulled partially, then released, the sear surface remains partly “pulled”. Paraphrasing, and I’m hopefully not misunderstanding. If so, it wouldn’t even need debris, necessarily. Perhaps in some circumstances, just wobbling the slide might cause sear engagement to gradually be eaten up until BANG! Do you think that’s plausible? Also, @Brosnarp, same question. So, for those of us carrying other striker fired guns out in the real world away from Youtube (or at least trying not to be in Youtube videos), how do you explain that we’re not seeing that problem? Glock Leg was literally people pulling the trigger while reholstering. If the P320 is firing without a trigger pull, which is likely in at least some of the cases of them firing while already holstered, then it is a completely unrelated problem. You’ll notice that the word “unrelated” is spelled with many of the same letters as “irrelevant”. Dude, what holsters are you using or looking at? Yep, I think that is also extremely plausible given the presence of sear hooks and dead triggers on the MSP guns. I'm actually the first guy that I know of to post the theory of sear walking via slide/frame slop in this thread and have tooted my own horn a few times about it (including now). 
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Quoted: I have no emotional connection with the issue. Obviously others do, as evidenced by multiple replies throughout this long thread. There is a known issue with striker fired guns that is not present in hammer fired. It has now been clearly shown in a video for all to see, including anyone who knew it before. It is clear evidence showing with 100 percent certainty that without fully pulling the trigger, a striker fired gun can fire simply by moving/adjusting the slide/frame fitment/position. It clearly shows how debris/shirts/holster design/other objects in a holster can pull the trigger enough to not initially fire when inserted, but fire with no further trigger movement later. Something that never came up with hammer fired guns. Something that was so rare to occur, it was potentially dismissed earlier. This does not mean it is the only issue striker fired firearms can have, but it is for certain a repeatable/verifiable proven issue that exists. There is no denying it, downplaying it, or mental gymnastics to dismiss it. Again, it in no way exonerates sig. The 320 has a light, easy to pull trigger that has no trigger safety/dingus and a thin trigger guard. It is easier to have an ad/nd with that model than some other manufacturers models. There is no other definitive repeatable evidence/proof, yet. But the good news is, we do have one proven verifiable repeatable explanation. It is a start. It is a shame how it initially came to light for the rest of the gun community to see that was not aware of it, though….. Dude, what are you even talking about anymore. Please leave the thread. You are derailing it with your absolute unwillingness to see what is abjectly clear:1. We know with 100% certainty that the striker block fails in some guns via a variety of mechanisms: sympathetic movement from a depressed sear, gunk buildup in the gun, weak springs from the factory, broken springs, springs that walk off their interfaces, improper assembly, external torque on the gun, and a few others I'm sure we're forgetting. Some of these can occur right from the factory. Some of these occur with time, meaning if your gun has a functioning striker safety block now, it isn't a guarantee it will function in the future. We don't need to have a gun with a failed striker block to prove that P320 striker blocks can fail. Plenty of evidence (including an FBI report) already proves that for us. 2. Knowing with 100% certainty that some striker blocks will fail, tests removing the striker block to simulate its failure are perfectly valid. It eliminates a variable in the testing so we can see what other failure mechanisms are necessary to get the gun to go off without touching the trigger. Seriously, just stop posting. You are out of your depth here and not nearly as smart as you seem to think. P.S.: you've posted that you own a P320 and plan to continue carrying it. You also keep posting in here willingly ignoring objective facts so that you can keep shitting up the thread with nonsense. You definitely do have an emotional investment in whatever false intellectual exercise you think you're taking part in. |
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Quoted: People in this thread are saying that if a P320 trigger is pulled partially, then released, the sear surface remains partly “pulled”. Paraphrasing, and I’m hopefully not misunderstanding. If so, it wouldn’t even need debris, necessarily. Perhaps in some circumstances, just wobbling the slide might cause sear engagement to gradually be eaten up until BANG! Do you think that’s plausible? Also, @Brosnarp, same question. My guess is that it's unlikely one would fire through slide manipulation after the trigger was partially pulled then released. Pulling up on the slide while the trigger is partially pulled works because 1: the trigger bar is holding the sear down and 2: pulling the trigger defeats the striker safety before it lowers the sear. Under normal conditions the sear is spring-loaded, the sear's vertical limit is set by the bottom of the striker, and the engagement angle between the sear and the striker tend to pull the two parts into engagement. If you lift the slide while the trigger is pulled the sear can't rise with it because it's held down by the trigger bar, so the striker slips off the sear. If you lift the slide without the trigger pulled, the sear can rise with the slide and the striker shouldn't slip off the sear. The positive engagement angle means that if there is any tendency for the parts to slip, it should be for them to slip into tighter engagement. If I was wrong about point 1 and the striker did slip off the sear, I think the striker block would likely work. I think that the follow up to the FBI testing and Bruce Gray's video indicate that the P320's striker block fails the punch test because depressing the sear can cause movement of the trigger bar when it is pushed far enough, and 'far enough' is farther than the distance required to drop the striker. If a trigger pull left the sear partially depressed, it's not being pushed farther than the distance required to drop the striker and the striker block should still work. As I tried to indicate, the above opinions are guesses based on incomplete data and I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong by new tests. I'd love to see someone test exactly how far the sear has to be depressed before the striker block gets deactivated, for example. |