[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 107 of 142)
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Quoted: None of their competitors have such sloppy slide to frame fit. That is what exacerbates the P320 issues. If there's any propensity for the striker to "walk" off the sear during movement between the slide and frame, the odds go up significantly when the slide is so free to move around. The issues with poor quality striker/sear MIM parts are also not shared with their competitors. The issues with the striker safety being easily defeated or assembled incorrectly from the factory are also not shared with their competitors. It's almost like almost none of this applies to their competitors, too. Quoted: Quoted: I’m not even defending SIG as I have a whole theory of why they Fire, but that aspect we’ve already covered. It by itself means nothing and is inherent to mainstream striker fired handguns. They all have sear and striker in separate parts of the gun, and if you pull the trigger enough you get to a point where that clearance can allow the pistol to fire. It’s unremarkable. Meaningless by itself as it applies to the competitors, too. None of their competitors have such sloppy slide to frame fit. That is what exacerbates the P320 issues. If there's any propensity for the striker to "walk" off the sear during movement between the slide and frame, the odds go up significantly when the slide is so free to move around. The issues with poor quality striker/sear MIM parts are also not shared with their competitors. The issues with the striker safety being easily defeated or assembled incorrectly from the factory are also not shared with their competitors. It's almost like almost none of this applies to their competitors, too. Do you have any evidence an average P320 has more slide/frame clearance than an average competitor, and that difference if it even exists allows that sear to walk when it wouldn’t on another pistol? Remember, this can’t just be a winning the lottery level of rarity, that’s much too low of odds. The striker safety is a piece of shit. That’s one aspect. Lots of pistols are built like crap and don’t randomly fire. It has to be specific to this design. All pistols have slide/frame clearance to some extent. I agree the P320 sear is walking, but almost completely pulling the trigger then playing with the slide doesn’t explain how it is walking when others don’t. |
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Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. You 100% missed the point of what he was doing, which he explained thusly at 15:05 into the video: In the FBI report, they found a ledge on the sear. [...] So now let's simulate because remember again the FBI report said there was a ledge on - it was either the sear or the the striker hook I don't remember - and you pulled the trigger a little bit less than a millimeter and it caught on that ledge and then you holstered your gun. I highlighted the operative word in bold: simulate. The purpose of his demonstration was that for the guns with weird ledges or burrs or rough surfaces on the sear/striker, they can get caught at different points, and those points may be enough that the sloppy slide to frame fit can cause the striker to release. So by pulling the trigger very slightly (but a consistent, repeatable and measured amount) he was simulating what could happen. All very hard to understand when you don't want to understand it. |
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Quoted: Do you have any evidence an average P320 has more slide/frame clearance than an average competitor, and that difference if it even exists allows that sear to walk when it wouldn’t on another pistol? Remember, this can’t just be a winning the lottery level of rarity, that’s much too low of odds. Now you're really pushing it. People win the lottery every day. You're saying it's okay for a Sig to go off in the holster every day?  As for the slide/frame slop - when in battery, the slide to frame slop is almost comical compared to every similar gun I can think of. |
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Quoted: Now you're really pushing it. People win the lottery every day. You're saying it's okay for a Sig to go off in the holster every day? As for the slide/frame slop - when in battery, the slide to frame slop is almost comical compared to every similar gun I can think of. Quoted: Quoted: Do you have any evidence an average P320 has more slide/frame clearance than an average competitor, and that difference if it even exists allows that sear to walk when it wouldn’t on another pistol? Remember, this can’t just be a winning the lottery level of rarity, that’s much too low of odds. Now you're really pushing it. People win the lottery every day. You're saying it's okay for a Sig to go off in the holster every day? As for the slide/frame slop - when in battery, the slide to frame slop is almost comical compared to every similar gun I can think of. My G21 has a significant amount of daylight between the slide and frame. It's pretty easy to tell where the recoil spring sits. LOL. |
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Quoted: My G21 has a significant amount of daylight between the slide and frame. It's pretty easy to tell where the recoil spring sits. LOL. You're conflating a gap with movement. My G21 is the exact same way, but there is VERY little up/down play in the slide when it is in battery. Holding it in my hand right now. |
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Quoted: My G21 has a significant amount of daylight between the slide and frame. It's pretty easy to tell where the recoil spring sits. LOL. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you have any evidence an average P320 has more slide/frame clearance than an average competitor, and that difference if it even exists allows that sear to walk when it wouldn’t on another pistol? Remember, this can’t just be a winning the lottery level of rarity, that’s much too low of odds. Now you're really pushing it. People win the lottery every day. You're saying it's okay for a Sig to go off in the holster every day? As for the slide/frame slop - when in battery, the slide to frame slop is almost comical compared to every similar gun I can think of. My G21 has a significant amount of daylight between the slide and frame. It's pretty easy to tell where the recoil spring sits. LOL. Sure, but that daylight is there because there’s a sizable gap under the slide, and Glock’s frames were well known for pig nose issues. But that’s not the question. The question is, how much vertical and rotational movement does the slide have on the rails? Anecdotally, I think the P320’s slide moves more than most. I won’t attempt to quantify that, and I’d have to play with a bunch of guns to be sure, but that variable is almost certainly part of this equation. |
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Yeah, I just checked my issued G19.3. The M17 has way more slop and movement during trigger pull. Not the same as having a clearance or gap. The G19’s slide jumps slightly after the striker is released. Looks like from the striker bottoming out on an empty gun. You have to really be looking for it; until today I never noticed, even while looking for it, and I’ve dry fired quite a bit. The M17’s slide moves (seemingly toward an out of battery condition) as the trigger is being pressed, and then snaps back to where it should be when the striker drops. Not the same timing, and the magnitude is much different, also. I noticed it with the M17 without looking for it, on the very first dry fire press, and it has been identical with several M17s. It is so noticeable that I found it alarming initially and thought maybe the first gun might be faulty somehow. Nope, it seems to be all of them. |
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Quoted: Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: Yeah, I bet it will harm Sig's "competitive advantages". That ship might've already sailed. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig.  One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons". This is strange. There's nothing in the M17/M18 design that isn't public knowledge. Sig sells handguns identical to the ones delivered to the Army to civilians. And there's no unique or proprietary feature or design described in that document. It's not like the document said something like "microwaves in the 2.9GHz range are able to reliably disable the M17 pistol" or some such nonsense that our enemies can leverage. What possible interest would the Army have in suppressing knowledge about defects that compromise the safety of our troops? The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: So this guy is 100% invested in the MHS program not becoming a failure. His reputation is on the line. He's been there at PEO Soldier much longer than 2020 even, as he is mentioned as the "M26 Product Manager" in this article about the XM26 from 2008: So this dude's job is likely on the line if the Army has to re-compete the MHS or ditch the whole program and start over. Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct. Quoted: Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: DEFENDANT, SIG SAUER INC.’S MOTION TO SEAL EXHIBIT 320 AND TESTIMONY REGARDING ITS CONTENTS The Defendant, Sig Sauer Inc. respectfully requests that the Court enter an order sealing Exhibit 320 and any testimony relating to its contents because the Exhibit contains confidential business information and information that, if released to the public, may harm Sig Sauer Inc’s competitive advantages in the marketplace. Yeah, I bet it will harm Sig's "competitive advantages". That ship might've already sailed. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig. One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons". The Army position would be to oppose the distribution to the public of the FMECA document as it potentially reveals critical information about the handgun (design, reliability, performance, etc.). Hope this helps and let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks, Thomas Vass APM - PM Soldier Weapons Picatinny, NJ 07806-5000 This is strange. There's nothing in the M17/M18 design that isn't public knowledge. Sig sells handguns identical to the ones delivered to the Army to civilians. And there's no unique or proprietary feature or design described in that document. It's not like the document said something like "microwaves in the 2.9GHz range are able to reliably disable the M17 pistol" or some such nonsense that our enemies can leverage. What possible interest would the Army have in suppressing knowledge about defects that compromise the safety of our troops? The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: Tom Vass, the Army’s project officer for the M18, believes the weapon will greatly benefit Marines, noting how it is a more reliable, accurate and effective pistol than previous ones. “Overall, the adoption of the M18 by the Marine Corps is an extremely positive decision that will benefit the Corps and enhance Marines’ safety and effectiveness when conducting missions,” said Vass. So this guy is 100% invested in the MHS program not becoming a failure. His reputation is on the line. He's been there at PEO Soldier much longer than 2020 even, as he is mentioned as the "M26 Product Manager" in this article about the XM26 from 2008: This will soon change, M26 Product Manager Thomas Vass told reporters, with fielding of the new M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS). So this dude's job is likely on the line if the Army has to re-compete the MHS or ditch the whole program and start over. Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct. The M26 is a huge pile of fucking shit. |
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Quoted: You 100% missed the point of what he was doing, which he explained thusly at 15:05 into the video: I highlighted the operative word in bold: simulate. The purpose of his demonstration was that for the guns with weird ledges or burrs or rough surfaces on the sear/striker, they can get caught at different points, and those points may be enough that the sloppy slide to frame fit can cause the striker to release. So by pulling the trigger very slightly (but a consistent, repeatable and measured amount) he was simulating what could happen. All very hard to understand when you don't want to understand it. Quoted: Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. You 100% missed the point of what he was doing, which he explained thusly at 15:05 into the video: In the FBI report, they found a ledge on the sear. [...] So now let's simulate because remember again the FBI report said there was a ledge on - it was either the sear or the the striker hook I don't remember - and you pulled the trigger a little bit less than a millimeter and it caught on that ledge and then you holstered your gun. I highlighted the operative word in bold: simulate. The purpose of his demonstration was that for the guns with weird ledges or burrs or rough surfaces on the sear/striker, they can get caught at different points, and those points may be enough that the sloppy slide to frame fit can cause the striker to release. So by pulling the trigger very slightly (but a consistent, repeatable and measured amount) he was simulating what could happen. All very hard to understand when you don't want to understand it. It doesn’t simulate anything… other than almost entirely pulling the trigger until the slide/frame clearance equals what remains of sear engagement. Who is pulling the trigger, past all the take-up of the first stage, well into the second stage when normal use is to just press through it to fire the pistol, and that’s an action that’s kind of hard to do even… but somehow doing that and then holstering the pistol but it also got caught on some ledge and then later fired… to the point this happened numerous times? He had to use a screw because people trying to do it without the screw end up just pulling the trigger by accident or being unsure if they pulled the trigger or not. The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. |
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Quoted: Almost all LE holsters these days are light-bearing and so cannot hold onto the trigger guard. The holster in use by USAF is a Safariland that locks on the ejection port, not the trigger guard: https://combatready.com/mhh-usaf-holster-kit/ Quoted: Quoted: After watching the video from the Wyoming person I wonder if ther may be a contribution from the holsters. Many holsters use the trigger guard as a retention feature. I do not know about the holsters involved in this, or if the duty holsters the police use also create a friction point at the trigger guard. But if Wyoming is correct and all it takes is a small amount of rearward pressure on the trigger to allow the sear failure he demonstrated; and the holster is putting some rearward pressure on the trigger; it would set up the situation that he was able to produce. I am certain everyone is looking at holster issues, but the confluence of the slight depression causing sear release may not have been evaluated. Almost all LE holsters these days are light-bearing and so cannot hold onto the trigger guard. The holster in use by USAF is a Safariland that locks on the ejection port, not the trigger guard: https://combatready.com/mhh-usaf-holster-kit/ Thank you for the answer. |
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Quoted: Yeah, I just checked my issued G19.3. The M17 has way more slop and movement during trigger pull. Not the same as having a clearance or gap. The G19’s slide jumps slightly after the striker is released. Looks like from the striker bottoming out on an empty gun. You have to really be looking for it; until today I never noticed, even while looking for it, and I’ve dry fired quite a bit. The M17’s slide moves (seemingly toward an out of battery condition) as the trigger is being pressed, and then snaps back to where it should be when the striker drops. Not the same timing, and the magnitude is much different, also. I noticed it with the M17 without looking for it, on the very first dry fire press, and it has been identical with several M17s. It is so noticeable that I found it alarming initially and thought maybe the first gun might be faulty somehow. Nope, it seems to be all of them. If that slide/frame clearance (not gap) is less than the overlap of the engagement of the sear/striker the pistol will not fire unless something else is happening to cause the striker to walk, which is decreasing that sear/striker engagement… in which case that is the problem, not slide/frame clearance. I’m not arguing in favor of the P320… I’m not even arguing that slide/frame clearance isn’t part of the issue, I think it is. The amount of clearance and whether it is more or less than other pistols isn’t the problem. The sear design that allows the sear/striker engagement to walk is the problem. All pistols have clearance… how much is too much? Or can we fix a P320 by just making thicker rails on the FCU to take some slop out? Easy as that? |
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Quoted: You're conflating a gap with movement. My G21 is the exact same way, but there is VERY little up/down play in the slide when it is in battery. Holding it in my hand right now. Quoted: Quoted: My G21 has a significant amount of daylight between the slide and frame. It's pretty easy to tell where the recoil spring sits. LOL. You're conflating a gap with movement. My G21 is the exact same way, but there is VERY little up/down play in the slide when it is in battery. Holding it in my hand right now. Yeah you are right, there isn't a lot of play. I checked mine too. |
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Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. Quoted: Quoted: After watching the video from the Wyoming person I wonder if ther may be a contribution from the holsters. Many holsters use the trigger guard as a retention feature. I do not know about the holsters involved in this, or if the duty holsters the police use also create a friction point at the trigger guard. But if Wyoming is correct and all it takes is a small amount of rearward pressure on the trigger to allow the sear failure he demonstrated; and the holster is putting some rearward pressure on the trigger; it would set up the situation that he was able to produce. I am certain everyone is looking at holster issues, but the confluence of the slight depression causing sear release may not have been evaluated. It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. Thank you for the answer. |
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Quoted: I’m not arguing in favor of the P320… I’m not even arguing that slide/frame clearance isn’t part of the issue, I think it is. The amount of clearance and whether it is more or less than other pistols isn’t the problem. The sear design that allows the sear/striker engagement to walk is the problem. |
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Quoted: I lean this way, also. But I don’t have any formal education on sear or pistol engineering in general. Just reporting what I see as a user. Everything about the M17 seems more suspect and sketch the deeper one looks at it. Quoted: Quoted: I’m not arguing in favor of the P320… I’m not even arguing that slide/frame clearance isn’t part of the issue, I think it is. The amount of clearance and whether it is more or less than other pistols isn’t the problem. The sear design that allows the sear/striker engagement to walk is the problem. And don’t get me wrong, sloppy slide/frame clearance could make an existing problem with the sear worse… absolutely would. But that isn’t the actual problem. Tightening up that clearance wouldn’t solve it, it would just somewhat mitigate it. It would be a bandaid ignoring the real flaw. That clearance slop being too much only becomes a problem because the sear walked or that slop, as I speculate, allows for the sear to walk more quickly than other pistols. Other pistols just don’t allow the sear to walk, because a sear shouldn’t walk. Stop the sear from walking and you can have that fit as sloppy as you want, within reason of course. |
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Quoted: The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. I don't do that, but sloppy reholstering could definitely do that. It wouldn't set the gun off at the time, but it could set up conditions for the gun to go off later. This type of scenario being possible is unacceptable. I'm also of the opinion that if there are significant defects in the striker/sear interface, the negative sear angle won't work to maximize the engagement automatically the way it was designed to. Instead, the striker/sear engagement may become random after each shot or after each manual action of the slide. Again, his video serves to simulate this happening, and then show that if something causes the striker/sear engagement to be reduced, that the sloppy fit of the slide and frame can cause the gun to go off. |
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Quoted: It doesn’t simulate anything… other than almost entirely pulling the trigger until the slide/frame clearance equals what remains of sear engagement. Who is pulling the trigger, past all the take-up of the first stage, well into the second stage when normal use is to just press through it to fire the pistol, and that’s an action that’s kind of hard to do even… but somehow doing that and then holstering the pistol but it also got caught on some ledge and then later fired… to the point this happened numerous times? He had to use a screw because people trying to do it without the screw end up just pulling the trigger by accident or being unsure if they pulled the trigger or not. The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. You 100% missed the point of what he was doing, which he explained thusly at 15:05 into the video: In the FBI report, they found a ledge on the sear. [...] So now let's simulate because remember again the FBI report said there was a ledge on - it was either the sear or the the striker hook I don't remember - and you pulled the trigger a little bit less than a millimeter and it caught on that ledge and then you holstered your gun. I highlighted the operative word in bold: simulate. The purpose of his demonstration was that for the guns with weird ledges or burrs or rough surfaces on the sear/striker, they can get caught at different points, and those points may be enough that the sloppy slide to frame fit can cause the striker to release. So by pulling the trigger very slightly (but a consistent, repeatable and measured amount) he was simulating what could happen. All very hard to understand when you don't want to understand it. It doesn’t simulate anything… other than almost entirely pulling the trigger until the slide/frame clearance equals what remains of sear engagement. Who is pulling the trigger, past all the take-up of the first stage, well into the second stage when normal use is to just press through it to fire the pistol, and that’s an action that’s kind of hard to do even… but somehow doing that and then holstering the pistol but it also got caught on some ledge and then later fired… to the point this happened numerous times? He had to use a screw because people trying to do it without the screw end up just pulling the trigger by accident or being unsure if they pulled the trigger or not. The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. From that perspective, I can agree. What the video does demonstrates is that there is very little margin for safety. And when that margin is broken, touching the slide (common when carried in a holster) can result in a holster pop. So what could cause such a minor change to the condition of the gun? Wear? Being dirty? foreign debris? Slightly less than perfect holster? Improper re-assembly? It's been reported that some of these guns were shipped with some wrong parts. There are reports of small changes to these parts over the years. Poor quality control / stacking issues. I'm beginning to think that there isn't a specific problem with the P320. There are many infrequent problems, and an overall design with no safety margin, resulting in many incidents. It seems the fix is to throw these pieces of shit into the trash can and get a new gun. |
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Quoted: I don't do that, but sloppy reholstering could definitely do that. It wouldn't set the gun off at the time, but it could set up conditions for the gun to go off later. This type of scenario being possible is unacceptable. I'm also of the opinion that if there are significant defects in the striker/sear interface, the negative sear angle won't work to maximize the engagement automatically the way it was designed to. Instead, the striker/sear engagement may become random after each shot or after each manual action of the slide. Again, his video serves to simulate this happening, and then show that if something causes the striker/sear engagement to be reduced, that the sloppy fit of the slide and frame can cause the gun to go off. Quoted: Quoted: The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. I don't do that, but sloppy reholstering could definitely do that. It wouldn't set the gun off at the time, but it could set up conditions for the gun to go off later. This type of scenario being possible is unacceptable. I'm also of the opinion that if there are significant defects in the striker/sear interface, the negative sear angle won't work to maximize the engagement automatically the way it was designed to. Instead, the striker/sear engagement may become random after each shot or after each manual action of the slide. Again, his video serves to simulate this happening, and then show that if something causes the striker/sear engagement to be reduced, that the sloppy fit of the slide and frame can cause the gun to go off. But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. The slide/frame clearance isn’t the root cause. The sear losing engagement is the root cause. His simulation forces the sear to have reduced engagement by pulling the trigger… so all he did was prove that if the sear has reduced engagement the pistol can release the striker with slide manipulation, just like other pistols. That isn’t surprising or unexpected. It’s obvious that will happen. How does the sear lose engagement? That’s the real question. He just shows what happens when it does by pulling the trigger… which is intended to disengage the sear… because it’s the trigger. |
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Quoted: From that perspective, I can agree. What the video does demonstrates is that there is very little margin for safety. And when that margin is broken, touching the slide (common when carried in a holster) can result in a holster pop. So what could cause such a minor change to the condition of the gun? Wear? Being dirty? foreign debris? Slightly less than perfect holster? Improper re-assembly? It's been reported that some of these guns were shipped with some wrong parts. There are reports of small changes to these parts over the years. Poor quality control / stacking issues. I'm beginning to think that there isn't a specific problem with the P320. There are many infrequent problems, and an overall design with no safety margin, resulting in many incidents. It seems the fix is to throw these pieces of shit into the trash can and get a new gun. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. You 100% missed the point of what he was doing, which he explained thusly at 15:05 into the video: In the FBI report, they found a ledge on the sear. [...] So now let's simulate because remember again the FBI report said there was a ledge on - it was either the sear or the the striker hook I don't remember - and you pulled the trigger a little bit less than a millimeter and it caught on that ledge and then you holstered your gun. I highlighted the operative word in bold: simulate. The purpose of his demonstration was that for the guns with weird ledges or burrs or rough surfaces on the sear/striker, they can get caught at different points, and those points may be enough that the sloppy slide to frame fit can cause the striker to release. So by pulling the trigger very slightly (but a consistent, repeatable and measured amount) he was simulating what could happen. All very hard to understand when you don't want to understand it. It doesn’t simulate anything… other than almost entirely pulling the trigger until the slide/frame clearance equals what remains of sear engagement. Who is pulling the trigger, past all the take-up of the first stage, well into the second stage when normal use is to just press through it to fire the pistol, and that’s an action that’s kind of hard to do even… but somehow doing that and then holstering the pistol but it also got caught on some ledge and then later fired… to the point this happened numerous times? He had to use a screw because people trying to do it without the screw end up just pulling the trigger by accident or being unsure if they pulled the trigger or not. The P320 has problems but he’s simulating an action that nobody does… unless there are hundreds of people almost completely pulling the trigger of their loaded pistol well past the take-up and then reholstering it. Do you do that? I certainly never have. From that perspective, I can agree. What the video does demonstrates is that there is very little margin for safety. And when that margin is broken, touching the slide (common when carried in a holster) can result in a holster pop. So what could cause such a minor change to the condition of the gun? Wear? Being dirty? foreign debris? Slightly less than perfect holster? Improper re-assembly? It's been reported that some of these guns were shipped with some wrong parts. There are reports of small changes to these parts over the years. Poor quality control / stacking issues. I'm beginning to think that there isn't a specific problem with the P320. There are many infrequent problems, and an overall design with no safety margin, resulting in many incidents. It seems the fix is to throw these pieces of shit into the trash can and get a new gun. Environmental junk wedges in the V at the rear of the sear/striker engagement, then as those surfaces separate and rejoin (as they do on all striker fired pistols) it wedges farther in under gravity until it fires. As soon as it does that piece of debris is freed and is gone. Not repeatable. Other pistols don’t do it because they don’t have a debris trap as part of their sear geometry to continually wedge the engagement farther apart over time with handling. |
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Quoted: But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. Quoted: Quoted: Again, his video serves to simulate this happening, and then show that if something causes the striker/sear engagement to be reduced, that the sloppy fit of the slide and frame can cause the gun to go off. But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. It's absolutely not true of "any" striker fired pistol. Just by you having said that, I don't know why anyone would take anything you say on this topic seriously. it's utterly divorced from reality. Pull a Glock trigger 90% of the way through the travel and let it return forward. Unless the trigger gets completely stuck pulled 90% of the way back (and it won't) you haven't lost sear engagement even if you momentarily reduced it, because the Glock design literally forces it to re-engage. There's a ramp in the trigger housing block that pushes the cruciform (trigger bar) back up into position and at the same time, returns full striker/sear engagement. And Glocks don't have a trigger return spring, since the striker spring functions as such. So you know the striker isn't floating in the breeze doing it's own thing. Completely opposite situation in the P320. The sear is independent of the trigger bar and as such can move independently, and letting the trigger reset doesn't necessarily let the sear reset. The sear isn't what's pushing the trigger back forward, the trigger return spring is. The sear can do whatever the hell it wants. |
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Quoted: The M26 is a huge pile of fucking shit. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: DEFENDANT, SIG SAUER INC.’S MOTION TO SEAL EXHIBIT 320 AND TESTIMONY REGARDING ITS CONTENTS The Defendant, Sig Sauer Inc. respectfully requests that the Court enter an order sealing Exhibit 320 and any testimony relating to its contents because the Exhibit contains confidential business information and information that, if released to the public, may harm Sig Sauer Inc’s competitive advantages in the marketplace. Yeah, I bet it will harm Sig's "competitive advantages". That ship might've already sailed. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig. One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons". The Army position would be to oppose the distribution to the public of the FMECA document as it potentially reveals critical information about the handgun (design, reliability, performance, etc.). Hope this helps and let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks, Thomas Vass APM - PM Soldier Weapons Picatinny, NJ 07806-5000 This is strange. There's nothing in the M17/M18 design that isn't public knowledge. Sig sells handguns identical to the ones delivered to the Army to civilians. And there's no unique or proprietary feature or design described in that document. It's not like the document said something like "microwaves in the 2.9GHz range are able to reliably disable the M17 pistol" or some such nonsense that our enemies can leverage. What possible interest would the Army have in suppressing knowledge about defects that compromise the safety of our troops? The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: Tom Vass, the Army’s project officer for the M18, believes the weapon will greatly benefit Marines, noting how it is a more reliable, accurate and effective pistol than previous ones. “Overall, the adoption of the M18 by the Marine Corps is an extremely positive decision that will benefit the Corps and enhance Marines’ safety and effectiveness when conducting missions,” said Vass. So this guy is 100% invested in the MHS program not becoming a failure. His reputation is on the line. He's been there at PEO Soldier much longer than 2020 even, as he is mentioned as the "M26 Product Manager" in this article about the XM26 from 2008: This will soon change, M26 Product Manager Thomas Vass told reporters, with fielding of the new M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS). So this dude's job is likely on the line if the Army has to re-compete the MHS or ditch the whole program and start over. Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct. The M26 is a huge pile of fucking shit. Jesus, someone will tell me next the M320 is bad. What's wrong w/ the M26? |
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Quoted: But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. The slide/frame clearance isn’t the root cause. The sear losing engagement is the root cause. His simulation forces the sear to have reduced engagement by pulling the trigger… so all he did was prove that if the sear has reduced engagement the pistol can release the striker with slide manipulation, just like other pistols. That isn’t surprising or unexpected. It’s obvious that will happen. How does the sear lose engagement? That’s the real question. He just shows what happens when it does by pulling the trigger… which is intended to disengage the sear… because it’s the trigger. Well also there is a second safety sear and it is quite low. Or getting worn. Or a combination of the 2. And it is not catching these and basically does not seem to do anything. He covered it the short video from today. This is fairly rare and if there was only 10,000 of these in the world and they almost never got shot it probably would not be a big issue. Maybe SIG was surprised by the response people had and then they started getting big orders. And thought they could make bank with a polymer gun full of Indian MIM parts and it would never be a problem. |
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Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG you've got to be kidding me that anyone thought this would be a good email to send. how many braindead idiots work at sig? not one person to say 'let's hit the pause button?' |
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Quoted: you've got to be kidding me that anyone thought this would be a good email to send. how many braindead idiots work at sig? not one person to say 'let's hit the pause button?' They have to be either truly evil in trying to convince the public that a dangerous design is safe, or they are the stupidest mf'ers on the planet. |
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Quoted: They have to either truly evil in trying to convince the public that a dangerous design is safe, or they are the stupidest mfers on the planet. Quoted: Quoted: you've got to be kidding me that anyone thought this would be a good email to send. how many braindead idiots work at sig? not one person to say 'let's hit the pause button?' They have to either truly evil in trying to convince the public that a dangerous design is safe, or they are the stupidest mfers on the planet. They are retarded. The plaintiffs' lawyers are loving this shitshow. Kharn |
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Quoted: So, how do they explain them going "Shake-Awake" in a holster on their own? There's video of that IIRC . Sig is insane for not acknowledging this and doing something about it. Instead of actively figuring out what is going on with that weapon going off in duty holsters and fixing it, they are not only killing sales of their most popular hand gun, they will end up destroying the reputation of the entire line of weapons, assuming it isn't too late already. Sig is the new EoTech. |
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Quoted: I guess it ends today-again. Received this email about 3 hours ago. SIG SAUER P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. SIG SAUER, Inc. 72 Pease Blvd. Newington, NH 03801 If the 320 can't fire without a trigger pull why does their own manual say the pistol has to be carried unloaded? 
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Quoted: I’m not even defending SIG as I have a whole theory of why they Fire, but that aspect we’ve already covered. It by itself means nothing and is inherent to mainstream striker fired handguns. They all have sear and striker in separate parts of the gun, and if you pull the trigger enough you get to a point where that clearance can allow the pistol to fire. It’s unremarkable. Meaningless by itself as it applies to the competitors, too. You may get the striker to release, but if the striker block safety isn't an overly complicated piece of shit that can also fail, that should keep it from firing. A Glock for instance, that block would actually work. |
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Quoted: It's absolutely not true of "any" striker fired pistol. Just by you having said that, I don't know why anyone would take anything you say on this topic seriously. it's utterly divorced from reality. Pull a Glock trigger 90% of the way through the travel and let it return forward. Unless the trigger gets completely stuck pulled 90% of the way back (and it won't) you haven't lost sear engagement even if you momentarily reduced it, because the Glock design literally forces it to re-engage. There's a ramp in the trigger housing block that pushes the cruciform (trigger bar) back up into position and at the same time, returns full striker/sear engagement. And Glocks don't have a trigger return spring, since the striker spring functions as such. So you know the striker isn't floating in the breeze doing it's own thing. Completely opposite situation in the P320. The sear is independent of the trigger bar and as such can move independently, and letting the trigger reset doesn't necessarily let the sear reset. The sear isn't what's pushing the trigger back forward, the trigger return spring is. The sear can do whatever the hell it wants. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Again, his video serves to simulate this happening, and then show that if something causes the striker/sear engagement to be reduced, that the sloppy fit of the slide and frame can cause the gun to go off. But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. It's absolutely not true of "any" striker fired pistol. Just by you having said that, I don't know why anyone would take anything you say on this topic seriously. it's utterly divorced from reality. Pull a Glock trigger 90% of the way through the travel and let it return forward. Unless the trigger gets completely stuck pulled 90% of the way back (and it won't) you haven't lost sear engagement even if you momentarily reduced it, because the Glock design literally forces it to re-engage. There's a ramp in the trigger housing block that pushes the cruciform (trigger bar) back up into position and at the same time, returns full striker/sear engagement. And Glocks don't have a trigger return spring, since the striker spring functions as such. So you know the striker isn't floating in the breeze doing it's own thing. Completely opposite situation in the P320. The sear is independent of the trigger bar and as such can move independently, and letting the trigger reset doesn't necessarily let the sear reset. The sear isn't what's pushing the trigger back forward, the trigger return spring is. The sear can do whatever the hell it wants. Any striker fired pistol has some point in travel when sear engagement matches slide/frame clearance. Someone in this thread even demonstrated it with a Glock. Showing what happens when that happens is all the WyomingGunProjects video shows. It isn’t demonstrating how that actually happens, though. |
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Quoted: You may get the striker to release, but if the striker block safety isn't an overly complicated piece of shit that can also fail, that should keep it from firing. A Glock for instance, that block would actually work. Quoted: Quoted: I’m not even defending SIG as I have a whole theory of why they Fire, but that aspect we’ve already covered. It by itself means nothing and is inherent to mainstream striker fired handguns. They all have sear and striker in separate parts of the gun, and if you pull the trigger enough you get to a point where that clearance can allow the pistol to fire. It’s unremarkable. Meaningless by itself as it applies to the competitors, too. You may get the striker to release, but if the striker block safety isn't an overly complicated piece of shit that can also fail, that should keep it from firing. A Glock for instance, that block would actually work. A Glock also wouldn’t have a seat walk out of the way of the striker because the cruciform and trigger housing don’t allow it to happen. |
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Quoted: But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. Quoted: But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. No, it is not. Quoted:If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. No kidding? You must have broke out a caliper and measured it to figure that out. Attached File Quoted:The slide/frame clearance isn’t the root cause. The sear losing engagement is the root cause. Quoted: His simulation forces the sear to have reduced engagement by pulling the trigger… so all he did was prove that if the sear has reduced engagement the pistol can release the striker with slide manipulation, just like other pistols. Try it on a glock. Report back with your findings. Quoted: That isn’t surprising or unexpected. It’s obvious that will happen. How does the sear lose engagement? That’s the real question. He just shows what happens when it does by pulling the trigger… which is intended to disengage the sear… because it’s the trigger. Let's not play jn to SIG's gay wordsmithing here. Applying pressure to the trigger but not pulling through the break is not what anyone means when they say pulling the trigger,regardless of how many times SIG says it. |
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Quoted: Almost all LE holsters these days are light-bearing and so cannot hold onto the trigger guard. The holster in use by USAF is a Safariland that locks on the ejection port, not the trigger guard: https://combatready.com/mhh-usaf-holster-kit/ Got damn That is expensive plastic Made from unicorns? |
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Quoted: It's absolutely not true of "any" striker fired pistol. Just by you having said that, I don't know why anyone would take anything you say on this topic seriously. it's utterly divorced from reality. Pull a Glock trigger 90% of the way through the travel and let it return forward. Unless the trigger gets completely stuck pulled 90% of the way back (and it won't) you haven't lost sear engagement even if you momentarily reduced it, because the Glock design literally forces it to re-engage. There's a ramp in the trigger housing block that pushes the cruciform (trigger bar) back up into position and at the same time, returns full striker/sear engagement. And Glocks don't have a trigger return spring, since the striker spring functions as such. So you know the striker isn't floating in the breeze doing it's own thing. Completely opposite situation in the P320. The sear is independent of the trigger bar and as such can move independently, and letting the trigger reset doesn't necessarily let the sear reset. The sear isn't what's pushing the trigger back forward, the trigger return spring is. The sear can do whatever the hell it wants. 
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Quoted: No, it is not. No kidding? You must have broke out a caliper and measured it to figure that out. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/breakingbad-science-1004.gif Opinions are everywhere in this thread but we don't actually know. If we're going to dumb it down to root causes, the root cause is that SIG built a cheap, shitty pistol by retrofitting shit to a lower they already had on the shelf to reduce R&D costs which sounds exactly oike something Cohen would love to do. Then, to top it off, they manufactured it out of cheap, shitty parts with a very poor design and dog shit tolerances. Try it on a glock. Report back with your findings. Let's not play jn to SIG's gay wordsmithing here. Applying pressure to the trigger but not pulling through the break is not what anyone means when they say pulling the trigger,regardless of how many times SIG says it. Quoted: Quoted: But that’s true of any striker fired pistol. No, it is not. Quoted:If something causes the sear engagement to be reduced to less than the slide/frame clearance any striker fired pistol will fire. No kidding? You must have broke out a caliper and measured it to figure that out. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/breakingbad-science-1004.gif Quoted:The slide/frame clearance isn’t the root cause. The sear losing engagement is the root cause. Quoted: His simulation forces the sear to have reduced engagement by pulling the trigger… so all he did was prove that if the sear has reduced engagement the pistol can release the striker with slide manipulation, just like other pistols. Try it on a glock. Report back with your findings. Quoted: That isn’t surprising or unexpected. It’s obvious that will happen. How does the sear lose engagement? That’s the real question. He just shows what happens when it does by pulling the trigger… which is intended to disengage the sear… because it’s the trigger. Let's not play jn to SIG's gay wordsmithing here. Applying pressure to the trigger but not pulling through the break is not what anyone means when they say pulling the trigger,regardless of how many times SIG says it. I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you. There is a video in this thread of one of our own showing a video with a Glock doing the same thing. It’s possible the design of the P320 allows for greater opportunity, a larger window of possibility, but regardless it isn’t surprising that a pistol can fire when the trigger is pulled to the ragged edge of losing sear engagement and then bumping it can cause it to release. The P320 is flawed in my opinion and I’ve explained why I think that is, but his tests doesn’t show anything surprising and doesn’t offer an explanation of how that reduced sear engagement comes into being. |
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Quoted: They have to be either truly evil in trying to convince the public that a dangerous design is safe, or they are the stupidest mf'ers on the planet. Quoted: Quoted: you've got to be kidding me that anyone thought this would be a good email to send. how many braindead idiots work at sig? not one person to say 'let's hit the pause button?' They have to be either truly evil in trying to convince the public that a dangerous design is safe, or they are the stupidest mf'ers on the planet. I think that they are trapped in a corner and have no choice but to fight. I think that Sig knows any fair resolution of the 320 issue will result in insolvency. These seemingly tone-deaf emails are Sig's "hail mary" play hoping that they can somehow ride this storm out. Further, Sig management could face criminal charges atthis point, so they might be more inclined to be in deny mode. |
| Some of you have the reading comprehension of a brick. Wyomings test proved nothing we didn't already know. If I take a striker fired pistol and reduce the sear contact by 90% and pull up on the slide, it will go off. Of course I'd have to force it to stay at the reduced contact point by doing something like sticking a screw in the trigger. Had he pulled the trigger partially and it stayed pretensioned without the screw, that's proof. All he did was introduce the possibility that maybe some 320s allow the sear interface to become pretensioned, in which case it will go off if jostled. His 320 didn't allow that, so he had to stick a screw in there. Of course Glocks, M&Ps, etc. don't allow the sear to stay pretensioned. But neither did Wyoming's 320. Debris on the sear or rough contact points allowing the sear to walk are both plausible explanations for how the 320 is getting a pretensioned sear. Shitty QC that leaves it outside the safety window is also a possibility. But sticking a screw in the trigger to pretension the sear ain't it. |
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Quoted: The American Nambu Quoted: Quoted: I need to pickup a 320 because it was an issued handgun and I'm a cloner nerd. The American Nambu Attached File You know, he's right. |
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Quoted: Some of you have the reading comprehension of a brick. Wyomings test proved nothing we didn't already know. And I think some of you have the engineering comprehension of a brick. Let's assume (for argument's sake, nobody knows) that 99.5% of all Sig P320s are perfectly safe and cannot, under any circumstances, fire on their own. If this article is to be believed, Sig has sold 2.5 million of these things. What's 0.5% of 2.5 million? A nice 12.5k. So if we've got twelve thousand unsafe guns out there, but your personal likelihood to run into one is half a percent, what are we left to do to try to figure this out when the company responsible is hell bent on us not figuring this out and covering everything up? Well, if you've got plenty of evidence of poor sear/striker engagement surfaces (from the Hilton v. Sig Sauer case, or the FBI BRF report, or whatever else) you can attempt to replicate issues that might arise from aforementioned poor sear/striker engagement surfaces and see what shakes out of the pistol. And lo and behold, the extreme amount of up/down slop between slide and frame that most P320s exhibit compared to competing designs, combined with poor sear/striker engagement surfaces that can hang up, combined with a striker safety design known to be ineffective, all combine together into a gun that can go off without a trigger pull. This isn't rocket science, it isn't even The Science, but some of you are hell bent on not understanding it. |
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Quoted: Some of you have the reading comprehension of a brick. Wyomings test proved nothing we didn't already know. If I take a striker fired pistol and reduce the sear contact by 90% and pull up on the slide, it will go off. Of course I'd have to force it to stay at the reduced contact point by doing something like sticking a screw in the trigger. Had he pulled the trigger partially and it stayed pretensioned without the screw, that's proof. All he did was introduce the possibility that maybe some 320s allow the sear interface to become pretensioned, in which case it will go off if jostled. His 320 didn't allow that, so he had to stick a screw in there. Of course Glocks, M&Ps, etc. don't allow the sear to stay pretensioned. But neither did Wyoming's 320. Debris on the sear or rough contact points allowing the sear to walk are both plausible explanations for how the 320 is getting a pretensioned sear. Shitty QC that leaves it outside the safety window is also a possibility. But sticking a screw in the trigger to pretension the sear ain't it. Exactly right, thank you. Trying to explain this to the millimeter mafia feels like beating my head against a wall. |
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Quoted: And I think some of you have the engineering comprehension of a brick. Let's assume (for argument's sake, nobody knows) that 99.5% of all Sig P320s are perfectly safe and cannot, under any circumstances, fire on their own. If this article is to be believed, Sig has sold 2.5 million of these things. What's 0.5% of 2.5 million? A nice 12.5k. So if we've got twelve thousand unsafe guns out there, but your personal likelihood to run into one is half a percent, what are we left to do to try to figure this out when the company responsible is hell bent on us not figuring this out and covering everything up? Well, if you've got plenty of evidence of poor sear/striker engagement surfaces (from the Hilton v. Sig Sauer case, or the FBI BRF report, or whatever else) you can attempt to replicate issues that might arise from aforementioned poor sear/striker engagement surfaces and see what shakes out of the pistol. And lo and behold, the extreme amount of up/down slop between slide and frame that most P320s exhibit compared to competing designs, combined with poor sear/striker engagement surfaces that can hang up, combined with a striker safety design known to be ineffective, all combine together into a gun that can go off without a trigger pull. This isn't rocket science, it isn't even The Science, but some of you are hell bent on not understanding it. Quoted: Quoted: Some of you have the reading comprehension of a brick. Wyomings test proved nothing we didn't already know. And I think some of you have the engineering comprehension of a brick. Let's assume (for argument's sake, nobody knows) that 99.5% of all Sig P320s are perfectly safe and cannot, under any circumstances, fire on their own. If this article is to be believed, Sig has sold 2.5 million of these things. What's 0.5% of 2.5 million? A nice 12.5k. So if we've got twelve thousand unsafe guns out there, but your personal likelihood to run into one is half a percent, what are we left to do to try to figure this out when the company responsible is hell bent on us not figuring this out and covering everything up? Well, if you've got plenty of evidence of poor sear/striker engagement surfaces (from the Hilton v. Sig Sauer case, or the FBI BRF report, or whatever else) you can attempt to replicate issues that might arise from aforementioned poor sear/striker engagement surfaces and see what shakes out of the pistol. And lo and behold, the extreme amount of up/down slop between slide and frame that most P320s exhibit compared to competing designs, combined with poor sear/striker engagement surfaces that can hang up, combined with a striker safety design known to be ineffective, all combine together into a gun that can go off without a trigger pull. This isn't rocket science, it isn't even The Science, but some of you are hell bent on not understanding it. And I’m offering you an explanation, which combined with the poor striker block safety, can explain how the P320 seat and striker when designed and built perfectly even, allows this to happen during normal use. It doesn’t depend on slight manufacturing variations, although that can exacerbate it. It doesn’t depend on abnormal slide/frame slop, although that can make it worse, too. If it’s some ledge on a surface as an artifact of manufacturing as you insist, why can nobody repeat it under lab conditions with those pistols that have already fired uncommanded? I’m giving you an explanation of how a small and seemingly insignificant piece of foreign contaminant can discharge any P320 because of the nature of its sear design. |
  Another Sig P320 #Wyominggunproject #sig #p320 #sigp320 #sigsauerp320 |
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Quoted: And I think some of you have the engineering comprehension of a brick. Let's assume (for argument's sake, nobody knows) that 99.5% of all Sig P320s are perfectly safe and cannot, under any circumstances, fire on their own. If this article is to be believed, Sig has sold 2.5 million of these things. What's 1% of 2.5 million? A nice 12.5k. So if we've got twelve thousand unsafe guns out there, but your personal likelihood to run into one is half a percent, what are we left to do to try to figure this out when the company responsible is hell bent on us not figuring this out and covering everything up? Well, if you've got plenty of evidence of poor sear/striker engagement surfaces (from the Hilton v. Sig Sauer case, or the FBI BRF report, or whatever else) you can attempt to replicate issues that might arise from aforementioned poor sear/striker engagement surfaces and see what shakes out of the pistol. And lo and behold, the extreme amount of up/down slop between slide and frame that most P320s exhibit compared to competing designs, combined with poor sear/striker engagement surfaces that can hang up, combined with a striker safety design known to be ineffective, all combine together into a gun that can go off without a trigger pull. This isn't rocket science, it isn't even The Science, but some of you are hell bent on not understanding it. Quoted: Quoted: Some of you have the reading comprehension of a brick. Wyomings test proved nothing we didn't already know. And I think some of you have the engineering comprehension of a brick. Let's assume (for argument's sake, nobody knows) that 99.5% of all Sig P320s are perfectly safe and cannot, under any circumstances, fire on their own. If this article is to be believed, Sig has sold 2.5 million of these things. What's 1% of 2.5 million? A nice 12.5k. So if we've got twelve thousand unsafe guns out there, but your personal likelihood to run into one is half a percent, what are we left to do to try to figure this out when the company responsible is hell bent on us not figuring this out and covering everything up? Well, if you've got plenty of evidence of poor sear/striker engagement surfaces (from the Hilton v. Sig Sauer case, or the FBI BRF report, or whatever else) you can attempt to replicate issues that might arise from aforementioned poor sear/striker engagement surfaces and see what shakes out of the pistol. And lo and behold, the extreme amount of up/down slop between slide and frame that most P320s exhibit compared to competing designs, combined with poor sear/striker engagement surfaces that can hang up, combined with a striker safety design known to be ineffective, all combine together into a gun that can go off without a trigger pull. This isn't rocket science, it isn't even The Science, but some of you are hell bent on not understanding it. Placing some unburnt powder or brass shavings on the sear to show that debris can cause reduced sear engagement leading to jostling setting the gun off would be something. Even then it's not conclusive because you can't prove debris was present during the UD. But it'd be better than sticking a screw in the trigger, because I can do that to any striker fired pistol. No other striker fired pistol even has the capability to have debris get stuck between the sear and striker. |
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Quoted: If it’s some ledge on a surface as an artifact of manufacturing as you insist, why can nobody repeat it under lab conditions with those pistols that have already fired uncommanded? Because there is some element of randomness to the sear engagement after every cycle of the slide. If you had a cutaway gun under high speed video, I firmly believe you would see evidence of this. The sear is left "floating" on the sear springs after the trigger disconnects when the slide moves to the rear. It is free to bounce up and down under the forces of recoil and cycling (including when the slide bottoms out at full travel, slide strikes the back of the cartridge case to begin feeding, when the nose of the bullet strikes the feed ramp, and when the bullet frees itself from the feed lips.) All of those forces can induce small accelerations in the overall system which will cause anything free-floating to move around a bit. I have actually watched a good deal of high speed video of pistols operating, and you'd be surprised what you see going on. If things can move, they do. The magazine bounces around in the frame. The round bounces around after it's struck by the slide. The slide release bounces around. It is chaotic. Now how Sig (and other manufactures, S&W for instance) solve for this is with negative sear angle. If the sear catches the striker at all, the negative sear angle forces the sear and striker to come to full engagement, ----> IF <----- the negative sear angle can overcome friction. That's a very big IF in the case of the P320. The surfaces need to be free of burrs and other defects. |
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Quoted: Do you have any evidence an average P320 has more slide/frame clearance than an average competitor, and that difference if it even exists allows that sear to walk when it wouldn’t on another pistol? Remember, this can’t just be a winning the lottery level of rarity, that’s much too low of odds. The striker safety is a piece of shit. That’s one aspect. Lots of pistols are built like crap and don’t randomly fire. It has to be specific to this design. All pistols have slide/frame clearance to some extent. I agree the P320 sear is walking, but almost completely pulling the trigger then playing with the slide doesn’t explain how it is walking when others don’t. Add in the wear from the overall use combined to inconsistant QA and a shitty design and here we are. There's no fixing it. |
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Quoted: No, it is not. No kidding? You must have broke out a caliper and measured it to figure that out. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/breakingbad-science-1004.gif Opinions are everywhere in this thread but we don't actually know. If we're going to dumb it down to root causes, the root cause is that SIG built a cheap, shitty pistol by retrofitting shit to a lower they already had on the shelf to reduce R&D costs which sounds exactly oike something Cohen would love to do. Then, to top it off, they manufactured it out of cheap, shitty parts with a very poor design and dog shit tolerances. Try it on a glock. Report back with your findings. Let's not play jn to SIG's gay wordsmithing here. Applying pressure to the trigger but not pulling through the break is not what anyone means when they say pulling the trigger,regardless of how many times SIG says it. I tried it with a Glock. https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo It works just like it does with a Sig. It's going to work exactly the same with any striker pistol where pulling the trigger forces the sear down. With a Glock or a P320, pulling the trigger defeats the striker block during the take up portion of the trigger pull, then starts forcing the sear down. At some point in the trigger stroke, it is inevitable that the striker block will have been defeated and the sear will have been lowered until the remaining sear engagement is less than the vertical slop in the slide, creating a condition where slide movement will finish releasing the sear. I believe the P320 has an issue, but a behavior that's inevitable in many (not all) striker fired designs probably ain't part of it. |