[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 106 of 142)
Wyoming Gun Project made a followup quick explanation and he is talking about the sears more: Quick Update on the SIG P320…This is interesting. ?? And he was a guest on that other persons podcast YankeeMarshall (Warning 2 Hours Long & Well Yankee Marshall is in It)  Wyoming Gun Project & I Discuss His Findings Regarding the P320! |
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Quoted: Wyoming Gun Project made a followup quick explanation and he is talking about the sears more:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYoxraSP5pYAnd he was a guest on that other persons podcast YankeeMarshall (Warning 2 Hours Long & Well Yankee Marshall is in It) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcepf6Iw130 |
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Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs.  So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man.  Quoted: Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY4SicvhEpYDude has posted pictures of an unredacted file of a sig official failure mode self assessment that came out in a court case. So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Another funny tactic with such PDFs is sometimes you can print them on paper and the text color is slightly different from the redacted color because it adds twice as much toner in the areas of redacted text. You can hold the paper at just the right angle to a light and read the text. It works even if they're locked from editing or password protected. Kharn |
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Quoted: Another funny tactic with such PDFs is sometimes you can print them on paper and the text color is slightly different from the redacted color because it adds twice as much toner in the areas of redacted text. You can hold the paper at just the right angle to a light and read the text. It works even if they're locked from editing or password protected. Kharn Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY4SicvhEpYDude has posted pictures of an unredacted file of a sig official failure mode self assessment that came out in a court case. So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Another funny tactic with such PDFs is sometimes you can print them on paper and the text color is slightly different from the redacted color because it adds twice as much toner in the areas of redacted text. You can hold the paper at just the right angle to a light and read the text. It works even if they're locked from editing or password protected. Kharn Well that’s some secret squirrel stuff. Thanks for sharing. |
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Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: DEFENDANT, SIG SAUER INC.’S MOTION TO SEAL EXHIBIT 320 AND TESTIMONY REGARDING ITS CONTENTS The Defendant, Sig Sauer Inc. respectfully requests that the Court enter an order sealing Exhibit 320 and any testimony relating to its contents because the Exhibit contains confidential business information and information that, if released to the public, may harm Sig Sauer Inc’s competitive advantages in the marketplace. Yeah, I bet it will harm Sig's "competitive advantages". That ship might've already sailed. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig. One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons". The Army position would be to oppose the distribution to the public of the FMECA document as it potentially reveals critical information about the handgun (design, reliability, performance, etc.). Hope this helps and let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks, Thomas Vass APM - PM Soldier Weapons Picatinny, NJ 07806-5000 This is strange. There's nothing in the M17/M18 design that isn't public knowledge. Sig sells handguns identical to the ones delivered to the Army to civilians. And there's no unique or proprietary feature or design described in that document. It's not like the document said something like "microwaves in the 2.9GHz range are able to reliably disable the M17 pistol" or some such nonsense that our enemies can leverage. What possible interest would the Army have in suppressing knowledge about defects that compromise the safety of our troops? The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: Tom Vass, the Army’s project officer for the M18, believes the weapon will greatly benefit Marines, noting how it is a more reliable, accurate and effective pistol than previous ones. “Overall, the adoption of the M18 by the Marine Corps is an extremely positive decision that will benefit the Corps and enhance Marines’ safety and effectiveness when conducting missions,” said Vass. So this guy is 100% invested in the MHS program not becoming a failure. His reputation is on the line. He's been there at PEO Soldier much longer than 2020 even, as he is mentioned as the "M26 Product Manager" in this article about the XM26 from 2008: This will soon change, M26 Product Manager Thomas Vass told reporters, with fielding of the new M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS). So this dude's job is likely on the line if the Army has to re-compete the MHS or ditch the whole program and start over. Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct. |
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Interesting update: Quick Update on the SIG P320…This is interesting. ?? |
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Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG Wow. Quadrupling down. Again, very Bud Light like response. |
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Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! |
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Quoted: 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! Quoted: Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! Calling out and throwing DHS/ICE under the bus is certainly a bold move. |
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Quoted: It’s so they can sue them Quoted: Quoted: 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! It’s so they can sue them This. They're not above trying to ruin peoples' lives and businesses to make a buck. |
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P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. SIG SAUER, Inc. |
| I find it interesting that Sig claims unequivocally that the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being pulled to the rear. Not fully to the rear as with every other handgun, but simply to the rear. Technically correct as seen in various recent videos of the P320 firing with the trigger pulled as little as 1mm to the rear, but a little clever wordsmithing that can be generously deemed as misleading imo. |
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Quoted: I find it interesting that Sig claims unequivocally that the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being pulled to the rear. Not fully to the rear as with every other handgun, but simply to the rear. Technically correct as seen in various recent videos of the P320 firing with the trigger pulled as little as 1mm to the rear, but a little clever wordsmithing that can be generously deemed as misleading imo. I noticed this bit or wordsmithery too. What a goalpost move. It's no longer about the "trigger pull", it's about "the trigger being pulled to the rear."
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Quoted: Wyoming Gun Project made a followup quick explanation and he is talking about the sears more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYoxraSP5pYAnd he was a guest on that other persons podcast YankeeMarshall (Warning 2 Hours Long & Well Yankee Marshall is in It) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcepf6Iw130The machine work on that gun sucks. The tolerances are more sloppy than an AK47. 
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Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG 
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Quoted: Wyoming Gun Project made a followup quick explanation and he is talking about the sears more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYoxraSP5pYAnd he was a guest on that other persons podcast YankeeMarshall (Warning 2 Hours Long & Well Yankee Marshall is in It) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcepf6Iw130Are "dead triggers" resting on the firing pin safety or the secondary sear notch, or either? Can the sear even rotate fast enough to catch the striker with the secondary sear notch? Kharn |
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Quoted: Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: Yeah, I bet it will harm Sig's "competitive advantages". That ship might've already sailed. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig. One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons".This is strange. There's nothing in the M17/M18 design that isn't public knowledge. Sig sells handguns identical to the ones delivered to the Army to civilians. And there's no unique or proprietary feature or design described in that document. It's not like the document said something like "microwaves in the 2.9GHz range are able to reliably disable the M17 pistol" or some such nonsense that our enemies can leverage. What possible interest would the Army have in suppressing knowledge about defects that compromise the safety of our troops? The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: So this guy is 100% invested in the MHS program not becoming a failure. His reputation is on the line. He's been there at PEO Soldier much longer than 2020 even, as he is mentioned as the "M26 Product Manager" in this article about the XM26 from 2008: So this dude's job is likely on the line if the Army has to re-compete the MHS or ditch the whole program and start over. Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct. Quoted: Quoted: So this video is actually wild. Sig screwed up redacting a file that's very incriminating. For background on why it matters, the FBI BRF evaluation of the P320 showed that the striker safety is wildly ineffective. I think we all knew that. This other document from like eight years ago was something Sig submitted as part of the MHS contract. It ended up as evidence in an ongoing lawsuit, but comically over-redacted so you can't see any of the details of what it's about. A guy on Instagram found it and figured out that they had "redacted" the PDF by leaving the text in place and just putting big black boxes on top of them, that you can remove with any software that edits PDFs. So what they were covering up in the document with redactions is Sig's self-evaluation that the M17 had a reasonable expectation of various sear failures that would cause the gun to go off, BUT - and this is a big, all-caps, BUT - Sig claimed to the Army that their mitigation for those sear failures is the striker safety. You know, the one that it turns out doesn't effin work. Sig knew about this for YEARS man. Sig is now actively trying to cover this leak up and someone from the Army is helping. They have filed a request to seal that document with the court. From document number 172 here: DEFENDANT, SIG SAUER INC.’S MOTION TO SEAL EXHIBIT 320 AND TESTIMONY REGARDING ITS CONTENTS The Defendant, Sig Sauer Inc. respectfully requests that the Court enter an order sealing Exhibit 320 and any testimony relating to its contents because the Exhibit contains confidential business information and information that, if released to the public, may harm Sig Sauer Inc’s competitive advantages in the marketplace. It gets worse. The Army is apparently carrying water for Sig. One of the supporting documents highlights an email from a Thomas Vass, a DOD civilian employee with PEO Soldier out of Picatinny. His title in his sig line is "APM - PM Soldier Weapons". The Army position would be to oppose the distribution to the public of the FMECA document as it potentially reveals critical information about the handgun (design, reliability, performance, etc.). Hope this helps and let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks, Thomas Vass APM - PM Soldier Weapons Picatinny, NJ 07806-5000 The MHS program started almost ten years ago, so a lot of the uniformed folks involved have probably moved on. But not necessarily the DOD civilian employees. In fact, Thomas Vass has been around for a long time. Here he is pitching the P320's "safety" to the Marines five years back: Tom Vass, the Army’s project officer for the M18, believes the weapon will greatly benefit Marines, noting how it is a more reliable, accurate and effective pistol than previous ones. “Overall, the adoption of the M18 by the Marine Corps is an extremely positive decision that will benefit the Corps and enhance Marines’ safety and effectiveness when conducting missions,” said Vass. This will soon change, M26 Product Manager Thomas Vass told reporters, with fielding of the new M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS). Not a good look for the Army. Prioritizing career DOD employees over the lives of troops is disgraceful conduct.  Eta: they appear to be getting into the cornered wounded rat phase. |
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Quoted: This. They're not above trying to ruin peoples' lives and businesses to make a buck. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! |
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Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG EVERY time Sig makes a public statement about this, they look like assholes. EVERY time Sig makes a public statement about this, they lose trust. Someone should give Sig some legal advice from lawyers they didn't even have to pay... 
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Quoted: Reportedly they even doxxed one of our members. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! A-rocked. They tried to get 03RN fired from his job because he posted here about Sigs breaking at the range he worked at. |
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I guess it ends today-again. Received this email about 3 hours ago. SIG SAUER P320 Information P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. SIG SAUER, Inc. 72 Pease Blvd. Newington, NH 03801 |
| Think about this for a minute: Hi Point and KelTec make some cheap crap which is bought by less than professional people, they are not having guns randomly go bang. Sigs CEO has a history of making expensive low quality guns,, look what he did to Kimber. At this point Sig is gaslighting and hoping this blows over, unfortunately they missed their opportunity to own this and make it right about 5 years ago. |
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Quoted: Shit Hi point is safer Quoted: Quoted: Who's gonna start the Army should've chosen the M&P thread? We already have FN, Beretta, Glock, and Luger threads running. Shit Hi point is safer And Taurus And just about every other fucking thing made in the last 50 years. |
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After watching the video from the Wyoming person I wonder if ther may be a contribution from the holsters. Many holsters use the trigger guard as a retention feature. I do not know about the holsters involved in this, or if the duty holsters the police use also create a friction point at the trigger guard. But if Wyoming is correct and all it takes is a small amount of rearward pressure on the trigger to allow the sear failure he demonstrated; and the holster is putting some rearward pressure on the trigger; it would set up the situation that he was able to produce. I am certain everyone is looking at holster issues, but the confluence of the slight depression causing sear release may not have been evaluated. |
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Quoted: YO WTF. Edit: I think I remember that now. Quoted: Quoted: A-rocked. They tried to get 03RN fired from his job because he posted here about Sigs breaking at the range he worked at. YO WTF. Edit: I think I remember that now. I'm sure he's tired of telling the story ever since Sig has been crapping in the sheets.
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/520283/SIG_png-3596639.JPG "...however failed customer drop testing (notified 2/1)" Omaha outdoors posted their infamous P320 drop firing video that went viral on August 7th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGASIG issued their "voluntary upgrade" on August 8th. They knew about the drop safety issues at least as early as February of 2017, but waited until the issue became viral to actually address it in August. Fuck SIG, holy fuck. Quoted: Sig categorically denies everything! Email from their sales/marketing: Edit - Adding screenshots if they're easier to read https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_1_png-3596741.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_2_png-3596742.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_P320_3_png-3596745.JPG Quoted: A-rocked. They tried to get 03RN fired from his job because he posted here about Sigs breaking at the range he worked at. |
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Quoted: After watching the video from the Wyoming person I wonder if ther may be a contribution from the holsters. Many holsters use the trigger guard as a retention feature. I do not know about the holsters involved in this, or if the duty holsters the police use also create a friction point at the trigger guard. But if Wyoming is correct and all it takes is a small amount of rearward pressure on the trigger to allow the sear failure he demonstrated; and the holster is putting some rearward pressure on the trigger; it would set up the situation that he was able to produce. I am certain everyone is looking at holster issues, but the confluence of the slight depression causing sear release may not have been evaluated. Almost all LE holsters these days are light-bearing and so cannot hold onto the trigger guard. The holster in use by USAF is a Safariland that locks on the ejection port, not the trigger guard: https://combatready.com/mhh-usaf-holster-kit/ |
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Quoted: I think they knew about it even longer. The MHS guns’ triggers didn’t need (at the time) a “voluntary upgrade”. Sig thought they’d already fixed the problem for that version of the gun and simply saw no need to fix it for the civvie guns. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/520283/SIG_png-3596639.JPG "...however failed customer drop testing (notified 2/1)" Omaha outdoors posted their infamous P320 drop firing video that went viral on August 7th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGASIG issued their "voluntary upgrade" on August 8th. They knew about the drop safety issues at least as early as February of 2017, but waited until the issue became viral to actually address it in August. Fuck SIG, holy fuck. I agree -- but we at least have actual proof they knew about it for at least half a year. |
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Quoted: I noticed this bit or wordsmithery too. What a goalpost move. It's no longer about the "trigger pull", it's about "the trigger being pulled to the rear." Quoted: Quoted: I find it interesting that Sig claims unequivocally that the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being pulled to the rear. Not fully to the rear as with every other handgun, but simply to the rear. Technically correct as seen in various recent videos of the P320 firing with the trigger pulled as little as 1mm to the rear, but a little clever wordsmithing that can be generously deemed as misleading imo. I noticed this bit or wordsmithery too. What a goalpost move. It's no longer about the "trigger pull", it's about "the trigger being pulled to the rear." Yep, subtle change in their description. Attached File |
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Quoted: I find it interesting that Sig claims unequivocally that the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being pulled to the rear. Not fully to the rear as with every other handgun, but simply to the rear. Technically correct as seen in various recent videos of the P320 firing with the trigger pulled as little as 1mm to the rear, but a little clever wordsmithing that can be generously deemed as misleading imo. I’m not even defending SIG as I have a whole theory of why they Fire, but that aspect we’ve already covered. It by itself means nothing and is inherent to mainstream striker fired handguns. They all have sear and striker in separate parts of the gun, and if you pull the trigger enough you get to a point where that clearance can allow the pistol to fire. It’s unremarkable. Meaningless by itself as it applies to the competitors, too. |
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Quoted: I’m not even defending SIG as I have a whole theory of why they Fire, but that aspect we’ve already covered. It by itself means nothing and is inherent to mainstream striker fired handguns. They all have sear and striker in separate parts of the gun, and if you pull the trigger enough you get to a point where that clearance can allow the pistol to fire. It’s unremarkable. Meaningless by itself as it applies to the competitors, too. None of their competitors have such sloppy slide to frame fit. That is what exacerbates the P320 issues. If there's any propensity for the striker to "walk" off the sear during movement between the slide and frame, the odds go up significantly when the slide is so free to move around. The issues with poor quality striker/sear MIM parts are also not shared with their competitors. The issues with the striker safety being easily defeated or assembled incorrectly from the factory are also not shared with their competitors. It's almost like almost none of this applies to their competitors, too. |
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Quoted: After watching the video from the Wyoming person I wonder if ther may be a contribution from the holsters. Many holsters use the trigger guard as a retention feature. I do not know about the holsters involved in this, or if the duty holsters the police use also create a friction point at the trigger guard. But if Wyoming is correct and all it takes is a small amount of rearward pressure on the trigger to allow the sear failure he demonstrated; and the holster is putting some rearward pressure on the trigger; it would set up the situation that he was able to produce. I am certain everyone is looking at holster issues, but the confluence of the slight depression causing sear release may not have been evaluated. It’s not slight pressure. He took up all the take up or “slack” in the trigger, then moved it even more… probably most of the way through the trigger pull, although his methodology is too sloppy to repeat anything since he measured from a random undefined spot on the trigger to a random undefined spot on the frame. If your holster almost completely pulls the trigger… there is some specific point where touching the slide can fire it. It’s more likely, much more likely I think, that a holster that badly defective would just fire the pistol outright and, again, be repeatable. All he proved, really, is that pistols have clearance between the slide and frame, which was already known. He just demonstrated that with an exceptional amount of clickbait. You can do the same thing with other striker fired pistols and if you don’t scream “one MILLIMETER” a hundred times and make a soyjak face for your YouTube thumbnail it is nearly as sensational, it’s just a very easy to anticipate aspect of a striker fired pistol and it’s meaningless. |
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Quoted: This. They're not above trying to ruin peoples' lives and businesses to make a buck. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. So much of this is 100% wrong, and all of the info to prove it is public. 2. This is written so deceptively. Holy shit. 3. THEY ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO NARC ON EACH OTHER?! It’s so they can sue them This. They're not above trying to ruin peoples' lives and businesses to make a buck. What happens if there is a discharge at the Sig academy?
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