Quoted: PS: If anyone is wondering, I'm one of those guys that wandered in from AR15.com.  No disrespect, but if you use an AR type patrol carbine, you might learn something over there. ------------------------------------ -FMD

[sarcasm]No they wont! They have mad skills YO!, Finely crafted to a razor sharp edge! Only THEY know how to handle an AR! The implication that they could learn something from a non LEO is unthinkable! We are so unsafe and stupid we shouldn't even be allowed to have them, we shoot our eye out![/sarcasm]

S.O.

I stopped reading when the highly trained "officer" called his magazine a CLIP. What a dumbass.

I have a former Practical Pistol champion friend who is overweight and in his 50's that can ace all but two or three law enforcement officers in this valley on 1911 draw and fire, shotgun and AR-15. These keystones obviously don't realize that CITIZENS shoot far more bad guys each year with very few friendlies shot due to the fact that they are where the crime is being commited, likely the victim of the crime and know first hand who the perps are and who the victims are. Planerench out.

Would it make the LEO's feel better if I were carrying and the LEO's grandma was getting raped by Burger* down some dark alley, that I would promise not to get involved, and just keep walking.  Perhap in 10 minutes or so, I could find a phone and call 911, and be put on hold.  Will LEO's feel better if I promise only to protect myself and my family?

*Reference to "Hair"

Well I'm for everyone having nationwide CCW carry:
All except for Spectre.

Jay

They were wrong to insult his shooting ability. For all they know, he could be Rob Leatham or Todd Jarret posting on their site.

As far as one of the LEO's fears of a "civilian" possessing a concealed firearm around him and his family, I have fears of LEO's I don't know around me and my family.  You just never know when a cop is going to go crazy and start killing people.  

Hey, what I just said is sarcasm.  But sarcasm, like humor, does not work unless there is some truth in it.

As far as shooting goes, most LEO don't know jack shit. However I would think ones on this forum and others would. After all they are putting in time after clock out.

The shooting comments where amusing to say the least, I really enjoyed the gas mask one. Such training.

Also how we can't train for real life situations. Hmm, last time I checked I could

And what about all the military out there with 100x more training and practical exp? Where is their Nation CCW. I guess these cops on this site our god's cops.

Oh well got a good laugh out of it.

And the 500 rounds comment was also a hoot, so much ammo dam makes me jealous.

So if national confiscation ever begins, don't count on your local leo's to support 2nd amendmant rights and turn a blind eye to you.  Apparently, they only think they're responsible enough to carry firearms...

And what about all the military out there with 100x more training and practical exp? Where is their Nation CCW. I guess these cops on this site our god's cops.

Things have changed a slight bit now, however I recieved a great deal more training in the LE field than when I was active duty Army.  Until Enduring Freedom and OIF began, the average street officers had alot more experience at clearing buildings, dealing with hostile people than the average soldier.

Quoted: So if national confiscation ever begins, don't count on your local leo's to support 2nd amendmant rights and turn a blind eye to you.  Apparently, they only think they're responsible enough to carry firearms...

Quoted: ... Yes, I have but MOST, IMO have been the result of some sort of alledged abuse of power or over-reactions. ... Fair assessment?

I’m inclined to disagree simply because there is so much variety here that I think any generalization will fail.  At times certainly you are correct.

Still (if I may now generalize myself!), the fundamental issue behind much of this isn’t H.R. 218 or even LEO vs. Non-LEO.

The basic problem IMHO – and why such discussions as this are a waste of time – is ego.

In many GD threads you see continual (and often pathetic) attempts by some members to inflate their own value or importance by putting down others, and by making sure no one else puts them down.

This put down can be race based, gender based, or nationality based (the French don’t do very well here!).  It can be veteran vs. non-veteran, it can be what branch you served in, or whether or not you were a REMF.

It can be what state you’re from!

The list is almost endless.

LEO vs. non-LEO arguments are just part of that mix.

Quoted: And what about all the military out there with 100x more training and practical exp? Where is their Nation CCW. I guess these cops on this site our god's cops. Things have changed a slight bit now, however I recieved a great deal more training in the LE field than when I was active duty Army.  Until Enduring Freedom and OIF began, the average street officers had alot more experience at clearing buildings, dealing with hostile people than the average soldier.

good point.... I remember all those pics back when all this stuff popped off of SWAT team guys teaching soldiers how to enter buildings etc and clear them...

Quoted: Quoted: And what about all the military out there with 100x more training and practical exp? Where is their Nation CCW. I guess these cops on this site our god's cops. Things have changed a slight bit now, however I recieved a great deal more training in the LE field than when I was active duty Army.  Until Enduring Freedom and OIF began, the average street officers had alot more experience at clearing buildings, dealing with hostile people than the average soldier. Thats very rare, and in most cases a waste of time simply due to the differences in what we do. One of my soldiers is a SWAT officer, and made that point himself.  He came into MOUT training feeling he was already up to speed, and walked away having learned a great deal and having had to relearn a lot of things in the way the military does things. good point.... I remember all those pics back when all this stuff popped off of SWAT team guys teaching soldiers how to enter buildings etc and clear them...

Okay, fast forwrad to page 3........

I read some of the stuff there...... and the attitude of "IF I'm a LEO in an other jurisdiction and I see someone who needs help, I will"...BULL!  I know of one LEO, a Lt. no the less that says, if he's not on duty IN his jurisdiction, he ain't doing $hit!!  I'm not being paid at that time to put my life on the line is his attitude... call it right/wrong, but not all think they'll put thier nose in somewhere. But that is him.....



I guess that LEO doesn't think of is, some people out there maybe former military, ones WHO actually got training (and actually do know how to shoot)!  And not everyone  w/ NCCP (national concealed carry permit) will intervine in a 'situation'.


What's this I read...... the former LEO HAVE a National Carry?????

I believe the only "former" LEOs that 218 applies to are retired guys

Quoted: As far as one of the LEO's fears of a "civilian" possessing a concealed firearm around him and his family, I have fears of LEO's I don't know around me and my family.  You just never know when a cop is going to go crazy and start killing people.   Hey, what I just said is sarcasm.  But sarcasm, like humor, does not work unless there is some truth in it.

Gasp!!!  POSTAL POLICE!!!

The law only serves to further stratify society in to the  "us Vs them" mind set.  When the Cops are saying "it's my job and I was trained for it" routine, they fail to realize the job is not rocket science.  The People have allowed the stratification of society, because it's easier than doing it yourself.  The police will tell you that their programs are useless without "citizen involvement", but when the chips are down they distain citizen involvement.  This was not always the case, but it is the rule now.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Actually it's not that bad a thread, it;s just that we non LEO's lok at one side of it and LEOs at least those guys that posted for the most part see a different side of it. WE see it as a self protection thing, they seem to see it as hey if I'm there and armed I can do something, even if im out of state. And that is actually a good thing. But at the same time I see it from the, well thats all god and dandy but I want to be able to protect myself and not have to worry about if there is a cop around or not. I honestly don't give two shits about the use of deadly force laws in this or any other state. I'm not about to pull out a gun for some stupid bullshit. But if my life is at risk, portecting my life is all I care about and if that means having pull and fire my weapon then the laws can suck my dick. My life is more important than laws. I don't believe in deadly force to protect my car, unless the asshole trying to steal it is doing it by force or threat of death or bodily harm to me while I'm in it. You want to steal my car radio in the middle of the night, fine I got insurance I'm not about to put 124gr hollow point in yer ass for it. It's not worth the BS you'll end up going through with the legal system. If you come into my house armed in the middle of the night, expect to be confronted by a pissed off armed resident, expect to not walk out of my house alive as you are a threat to my life and the lives of my family. seems simple to me, if yer going to take a life, it better be to protect a life. I happen to be a member  both here and at RP.  Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too.  I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. The officers on RP don't imagine that they can protect you at all.  They know better.   I am a former cop, so I have insight into both worlds.  As a law abiding citizen, I want the right to carry.  I also teach CHL and Security Guards in Texas.  If saw some of what I saw, you would have a problem with a bunch of these people carrying around you and your family.   And Occifer it is not "us vs them" unless you try to make it that way.  The cops I know at RP, and the ones who serve my community where I live, as well as what I observed at the DPS academy this month, have shown me that these people understand their role in society and care deeply about the people in those communities.   You are one of the few that seem reasonable over there and seem like they have their head on straight. I just get pissed when people accuse others of making gross character judgments and assumptions while then doing the same thing themselves. It is hard for a non LEO to come away from such a thread and not see "Us Vs Them" written all over it. BTW, did you know I was a ? Dont know if they meant here or over there but I digress... I didn't even get a membership over there to start any shit. I initially found the site when it turned up in a search engine hit for a part for my CV, I scrolled down the list of forums and saw a "firearms forum" and thought cool, well, after going several pages in and reading posts, some with WAY off info like "green tip 223 is AP" and that "AP rifle ammo is illegal, right?" Or "can I shoot 40 in a 10mm and 10mm in a 40?" and no-one correcting them I decided to join and post to clarify some thingsand to just participate in some good gun talk.  I guess they feel threatened by someone with "gun knowledge". Funny thing is, when I took my oral board for the academy I was asked "what is the biggest problem facing law enforcement? My answer was "LEOs themselves and how they project there positions and authority on those who aren't LEO".  Boy, did that get some raised eyebrows and notes taken.....BUT, I still passed the board. A week b4 I was to start we (the recruits) had a sitdown with an LT, kinda an informal Q+A, when I heard what he was making after being their 14 yrs the 1st thought in my head was "You poor son of a bitch...."  I had to do some soul searching to see if it was the path I really wanted to pursue.....I regret it less as time goes on, it just wasn't in the stars for me. I'm just glad I found this out b4 I ended up being very un-happy. One thing I found especially interesting was how many officers poo poo'd the glock. Alot of talk on how crappy they are and how they KB. Either it happens more than what it is being reported or they are falling prey to the same rumor/truths that are reported here. I dont think I will bother going back, it just isn't worth it. S.O. Edited cause I can't spell worth a shit today...

You went though all the testing, and right before the academy you happened to ask what the salary was and THEN changed your mind about being LEO?
Ok,,,now what really happened?  Sounds like at game time you figured out you couldn't cut it, which would go a long way towards explaining why you're going to a police web site and stirring up shit.
Why don't you go back there and explain to them why a fallen officer shouldn't have a military style funderal?
Police works a dangerous job, and I commend you for realizing your limitations before you got yourself or someone else hurt, but don't be a hater just because you couldn't cut it.
You'd have been a Sorry Occifer indeed!

Quoted: Quoted: Just reading the first page off the other site, all the cops kept refering to us as "civilians". They are civilians too, they aren't in the military. They are civilians who are cops. Shhhhh! Don't say that too loudly! It's supposed to be a secret! Here's the best post from that thread: "And that's another reason that I really don't care for citizens with CCWs. Too many of them think that they can outshoot us and are thus better qualified to carry guins in public. "I really don't care who has a range in their back yard or how many beer cans they plink at. Few civilians undergo the stressfire training that we get on a regular basis, including night shooting, cover shooting, timed shooting from the holster or simulator shoot/don't-shoot training that we do. Few know the laws of deadly force adequately and way too many civilians think that a CCW makes them an adjundct cop, ready to run out and stop criminals in their tracks. "So please...take that Walter Mitty "I'm better trained than most cops..." BS and follow MORA's advice. You aren't one of us and you don't know how we train or what we can do. You've been fed a line of crap from some gun magazine writer and you think that you're the end-all. That's you're business but coming here and throwing it in our faces is the height of arrogance." - by DC_Cop, who appears to be a Moderator on the site! BTW, SorryOciffer, are you banned at that site now? It says 'Banned' under your Board name. Eric The(ThereIsNoSuchThingAs'CiviliansVsCops'~It's'CiviliansVsOtherCivilians')Hun

You just can't resist any kind of cop bashing thread can ya?
Pathetic, just pathetic,

Quoted: Okay, fast forwrad to page 3........ I read some of the stuff there...... and the attitude of "IF I'm a LEO in an other jurisdiction and I see someone who needs help, I will"...BULL!  I know of one LEO, a Lt. no the less that says, if he's not on duty IN his jurisdiction, he ain't doing $hit!!  I'm not being paid at that time to put my life on the line is his attitude... call it right/wrong, but not all think they'll put thier nose in somewhere. But that is him..... I guess that LEO doesn't think of is, some people out there maybe former military, ones WHO actually got training (and actually do know how to shoot)!  And not everyone  w/ NCCP (national concealed carry permit) will intervine in a 'situation'. What's this I read...... the former LEO HAVE a National Carry?????

Wow, you know "of one LEO"....well that pretty much covers it, doesn't it?

Quoted: ryann you are a great reason for anyone not to like LEOs, but you are mistaken if you think that I don't like LEOs. What I don't like, and what is painfully obvious to anyone with at least two brains cells they can rub together shouldn't be countenanced, is the attitude that is expressed by the LEO, named 'DC_Cop' that I quoted in the above post that you call 'bashing'! Is this not 'civilian bashing' by an LEO? Of course it is, but you would never, ever admit such a thing. I suppose that we can rightfully assume that you think precisely as 'DC_Cop' thinks? And THAT, my dear man, is what is truly PATHETIC! How's that 'White LEOs vs. Black and Brown LEOs' suit that your police union filed against the City of Dallas going, anyway? Some 'thin blue line' that y'all have in Dallas, eh? It's incredibly thin nowadays, isn't it, since y'all have divided it into the 'light blues' versus the 'dark blues'? Eric The(Hardy-Har-Har)Hun

I've told you before, I don't have a dog in that fight, but obviously you're more interested in typing mundane polemics than reading responses.   Call Jim Schutze, as I've told you before, he knows everything.  
Did I read on one of your posts that you admit to previous drug and alcohol abuse?  Drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police.
Your overbearing obnoxious posts are a damn good reason to hate lawyers, but unlike you I judge the individual, not his profession.  Frankly, I don't judge you very highly.

Im a civillian, Im an American. Im a ccw holder, I respect police officers.

That thread you linked me to makes me sick to my stomach. And they PM'd you on a threat, that is what gangs do, not L.E. .
Im not a cop or in the military. Not unlike most people on this board, I carry my pistol to protect myself & family,.  

What exactly  am I posing for? What type of poseur were they infurring, I havent used that word since I stopped skateboarding.

They tracked you down to ar15com where you use the same screen name, that is some good dt work.

Just my $.02

ryann, ETH is speaking about a statement made by a man. Not about a profession.

Every Saturday there is the same Deputy eating breakfast at the local diner. I always say hello to him, because I know him, regardless of his profession, to be a fair and honest man.

A friend of my fathers is a retired Deputy. I think he's a great guy. Its fun to talk guns with him. He is a good man.

I, as well as Eric, are capable of sorting people, even people of the same profession, into categories based on merit. You, on the otherr hand, stereotype. Consider this: you stated a momonet ago that "drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police". That is an observation based on personal experience. Are you wrong to make that observation? No more than ETH is to make an observation about policemen.

Quoted: ryann, ETH is speaking about a statement made by a man. Not about a profession. Every Saturday there is the same Deputy eating breakfast at the local diner. I always say hello to him, because I know him, regardless of his profession, to be a fair and honest man. A friend of my fathers is a retired Deputy. I think he's a great guy. Its fun to talk guns with him. He is a good man. I, as well as Eric, are capable of sorting people, even people of the same profession, into categories based on merit. You, on the otherr hand, stereotype. Consider this: you stated a momonet ago that "drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police". That is an observation based on personal experience. Are you wrong to make that observation? No more than ETH is to make an observation about policemen.

Um drug abuse is an act, an illegal act at that.  No you're right, and I'm wrong, every dope head I've ever encountered was happy as hell to see me, whether or buying or selling dope!  
What was I thinking, categorizing dopers like that?
After all, theres a direct equivilency between judging those committing illegal acts, and judging those that are empolyed in a particular profession.
You got my mind right sir, and I thank you.

Quoted: Im a civillian, Im an American. Im a ccw holder, I respect police officers. That thread you linked me to makes me sick to my stomach. And they PM'd you on a threat, that is what gangs do, not L.E. . Im not a cop or in the military. Not unlike most people on this board, I carry my pistol to protect myself & family,.   What exactly  am I posing for? What type of poseur were they infurring, I havent used that word since I stopped skateboarding. They tracked you down to ar15com where you use the same screen name, that is some good dt work. Just my $.02

Barely good detective work. txinvestigator is an active member on both sites--he followed the link back and posted their. Lucky, yes, but not detective work. (no slight meant to txinvestigator)

Quoted: Quoted: ryann, ETH is speaking about a statement made by a man. Not about a profession. Every Saturday there is the same Deputy eating breakfast at the local diner. I always say hello to him, because I know him, regardless of his profession, to be a fair and honest man. A friend of my fathers is a retired Deputy. I think he's a great guy. Its fun to talk guns with him. He is a good man. I, as well as Eric, are capable of sorting people, even people of the same profession, into categories based on merit. You, on the otherr hand, stereotype. Consider this: you stated a momonet ago that "drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police". That is an observation based on personal experience. Are you wrong to make that observation? No more than ETH is to make an observation about policemen. Um drug abuse is an act, an illegal act at that.  No you're right, and I'm wrong, every dope head I've ever encountered was happy as hell to see me, whether or buying or selling dope!   What was I thinking, categorizing dopers like that? After all, theres a direct equivilency between judging those committing illegal acts, and judging those that are empolyed in a particular profession. You got my mind right sir, and I thank you.

And you accuse ETH of being overbearing? While you are patronizing?

ryann, this discussion is about what 3 or 4 LEOs said on another discussion board. It is not about what all officers think about the subject. I am sure that there are many cops that want non LEOs too be  able to carry nationwide. And if they were to post that opinion here, the non LEOs here would undoubtedly be happy to hear that. Its about an issue, not about bashing cops.

Quoted: Post from ryann: I've told you before, I don't have a dog in that fight, but obviously you're more interested in typing mundane polemics than reading responses. Really? You have even bitched on this Board about Affirmative Action at the DPD before! Remember? Call Jim Schutze, as I've told you before, he knows everything. Yes, he knows more than a lot of folks, for sure!   Did I read on one of your posts that you admit to previous drug and alcohol abuse? Yes, I believe you did. I never, ever lie about anything, my dear man. Including stuff that should be lied about, I suppose. Drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police. Current drug users might have a disdain for LEOs. So you never drink, eh, ryann? Heh-heh-heh, why do I find that so incredibly difficult to believe? Your overbearing obnoxious posts are a damn good reason to hate lawyers, but unlike you I judge the individual, not his profession.  Frankly, I don't judge you very highly. Sorry that you don't like lawyers! I can imagine that we all feel the pain of your hatred! Not! Frankly, I would be ashamed if you DID judge me very highly at all. I always consider the source when reading crap like that! And pure unadulterated crap is what you write! I do notice that you failed to respond to my question, 'Do you agree with 'DC_Cop's' attitude toward civilians?' Why?  Cat got your tongue? Eric The('OverbearingAndObnoxious'AreWordsICanLiveWith)Hun

Well, I didn't read DC-Cops' post, but if it rankled you I'd probably agree with it.
Do I drink?  Sure on occasion, Coors light shaken not stirred.  Beer's LEGAL, ya see.
So what kind of dope have you done?  Did you meet your connection in some dark alley, did you go to the local dope house, or did you get it from some yuppie co-worker?

Oh and you haven't read me bitching aobut Affirmative Action, and I won't call you a liar like you have to some posters that DARED to contradict you.
I probably have bitched about RACIAL PREFERENCE in the workplace at some past time here, although I don't remember any details.

Why do some of the LEOs (not all) here seem unable to discuss any issue related to LEO an civilian interaction without feeling persecuted? Some kind of deep seated insecurity or something?

ryann, Eric has admitted that in the past he abused drugs or alcohol. Get over it. Many, many productive members of society have done the same thing. If it is not in his life now, what does it matter anymore?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ryann, ETH is speaking about a statement made by a man. Not about a profession. Every Saturday there is the same Deputy eating breakfast at the local diner. I always say hello to him, because I know him, regardless of his profession, to be a fair and honest man. A friend of my fathers is a retired Deputy. I think he's a great guy. Its fun to talk guns with him. He is a good man. I, as well as Eric, are capable of sorting people, even people of the same profession, into categories based on merit. You, on the otherr hand, stereotype. Consider this: you stated a momonet ago that "drug abusers have an inherent disdain for the police". That is an observation based on personal experience. Are you wrong to make that observation? No more than ETH is to make an observation about policemen. Um drug abuse is an act, an illegal act at that.  No you're right, and I'm wrong, every dope head I've ever encountered was happy as hell to see me, whether or buying or selling dope!   What was I thinking, categorizing dopers like that? After all, theres a direct equivilency between judging those committing illegal acts, and judging those that are empolyed in a particular profession. You got my mind right sir, and I thank you. And you accuse ETH of being overbearing? While you are patronizing? ryann, this discussion is about what 3 or 4 LEOs said on another discussion board. It is not about what all officers think about the subject. I am sure that there are many cops that want non LEOs too be  able to carry nationwide. And if they were to post that opinion here, the non LEOs here would undoubtedly be happy to hear that. Its about an issue, not about bashing cops.

I agree with you to a point, but as with all cop bashing threads on this board, it seems to drift from a few cops to ALL cops thinking this or that way, or doing this or that.  Read some of the posts on this thread if you won't take my word for it.
This Sorry OCCifer dude goes over there, gets a couple opinions on their board, then comes back here whining about it, and the thread goes from cops don't want "civilians" to have CCW to the argument of whether or not cops are "civilians."
This is a movie I've seen many times on this board, and I have to condition myself to stay out of them.
FWIW-I personally, as a LEO with over 25 years experience in two states, would gladly support a nationwide concealed carry for "civilians."
Except for the cop bashing and other minor disagreements, I agree with the general theme of this board and the political tilt.

Quoted: ryann, Eric has admitted that in the past he abused drugs or alcohol. Get over it. Many, many productive members of society have done the same thing. If it is not in his life now, what does it matter anymore?

Well, if ETH's gonna "live in a glass house, he shouldn't throw rocks."
And ETH throws a lotta rocks.
I had a friend KIA on the mean streets of Dallas enforcing drug laws, and I don't have a real soft spot for dopers.

Quoted: Quoted: ryann, Eric has admitted that in the past he abused drugs or alcohol. Get over it. Many, many productive members of society have done the same thing. If it is not in his life now, what does it matter anymore?

Well, if ETH's gonna "live in a glass house, he shouldn't throw rocks."
And ETH throws a lotta rocks.
I had a friend KIA on the mean streets of Dallas enforcing drug laws, and I don't have a real soft spot for dopers. And if you ask ETH, that officer wasn't even entitled to a military style funeral

I am sorry to hear about your friend, ryann.

I agree with you that there are too many here that do bash cops. FWIW I try to remain objective and look at the situation logically, in every case. I do stereotype, but I like to gather facts before I open my mouth, and keep the discussion to the facts.

Remember, I don't bash cops, I bash individuals, some of who are cops

Quoted: Well I'm for everyone having nationwide CCW carry: All except for Spectre. Jay

Thats going to leave a mark

Are you just saying that because he's form Tucson???...If so...I agree

I registered on the REAL POLICE site today after reading this thread and SorryOciffers posting on said site.

The Mod ,DC LAW welcomed me, sort of, by questioning why without an LEO background I chose to register with REAL POLICE...But Alas...Try as I may...I could not reply without getting an error message.

I'll keep trying...one citizen to another......BTW ,I Salute all LEO's and Military Servicemen

Quoted: Post from ryann: Well, I didn't read DC-Cops' post, but if it rankled you I'd probably agree with it. Are you a liar, now? You even quoted my quote of 'DC_Cop's quotation in that other thread! See: Here's the best post from that thread: "And that's another reason that I really don't care for citizens with CCWs. Too many of them think that they can outshoot us and are thus better qualified to carry guins in public. "I really don't care who has a range in their back yard or how many beer cans they plink at. Few civilians undergo the stressfire training that we get on a regular basis, including night shooting, cover shooting, timed shooting from the holster or simulator shoot/don't-shoot training that we do. Few know the laws of deadly force adequately and way too many civilians think that a CCW makes them an adjundct cop, ready to run out and stop criminals in their tracks. "So please...take that Walter Mitty "I'm better trained than most cops..." BS and follow MORA's advice. You aren't one of us and you don't know how we train or what we can do. You've been fed a line of crap from some gun magazine writer and you think that you're the end-all. That's you're business but coming here and throwing it in our faces is the height of arrogance." - by DC_Cop, who appears to be a Moderator on the site! Are you saying that you responded without reading the entire quote? Typical, eh? Shooting from the hip, or shooting from the lip, considering the source! So what kind of dope have you done? The usual stuff, why? Do you need something? Did you meet your connection in some dark alley, did you go to the local dope house, or did you get it from some yuppie co-worker? None of your business, little man! Oh and you haven't read me bitching aobut Affirmative Action, and I won't call you a liar like you have to some posters that DARED to contradict you. Oh yes, you did. To me, even! I probably have bitched about RACIAL PREFERENCE in the workplace at some past time here, although I don't remember any details. See? Sometimes even an inveterate liar can tell the truth! I remember the details quite well, unlike you! Shouldn't be messing around with someone who has a decent memory! Despite all the drug usage, I can still remember a lot of stuff! What's your excuse? Eric The(LaidBackLenny)Hun

Yeah you're right hero, I'd lie about reading a thread, you caught me with my pants down (thats not any kind of an invitation BTW).  I believe that thread was included as part of another thread.
"Despite all the drug usage" Eh?  You don't like to separate "civilians" from cops, but I bet you're comfortable with the extra considerations lawyers get.  Ya see, ETH, if a cop messes with dope he gets fired, or not hired in the workplace, but your UNION, the bar association, won't dis-bar you for failing to comply with drug laws.  Double standard?  Or are cops just better people than lawyers, with higher standards?:

BTW, I'd think a brilliant individual like you would know the difference between affirmative action and racial preference.

Quoted: I just read the two pages of posts over there.  It's not even worth my effort of getting an account so I can post. Too many cops have the attitude they are a different class of person. .

Unfortunate, but unfortunately true. I think it is a small percentage, but still large enough to skew the picture.

I can demonstrate that I have more professional weapons training than most police officers in my state. I attended a carbine training course that a LEO from my hometown was at to try and develop a training course for the local department so they could issue M4gery weapons. I was not quite as good as he was with the carbine, as overall he was the top shooter. But I actually bested him in a couple of drills. I was one of 3 civvys in the course, and I did better than guys with SWAT and former military small arms training.

This does not make me a better person. Nor does it mean that I am clearly able to do a cops job no problem.

It DOES mean that I am proficient with a handgun, shotgun, and tactical carbine. It means that I know how to use my weapons in a safe and responsible manner. It means that I am able to meet or exceed practically any weapons qualification course in the land, state, local, or even federal. It means I have enough technical skill to effectively employ the firearm as a tool for defense of myself and my family.

Not because I am the world's greatest shooter, or because I am some sort of superman. It does mean that I have taken the time and effort to train myself to a high level of proficiency precisely because I want to be able to use my weapon(s) effectively should I be forced to use them at all.

Some cops out there are just plain balls-out better than me with guns. I have met them. One FBI agent in particular spent all of my last handgun class whipping my buttocks regularly on drills. I think I may have beat him on one drill, but I am not sure.

But I also deal with police on a DAY TO DAY basis who only shoot the very minimum qualifications that they have to, and even then they have to shoot the qual course multiple times to even get a passing grade.

This does not mean they are bad people, or that they are even bad police officers. Using lethal force is not a common everyday part of most police officer's jobs. They are darn fine officers, but they lack proficiency with their duty weapons. This is fact.

Get around any FTO in almost any department, and you will find out that there are many police who are good at their jobs, but lacking in weapons skill. I have been around MANY FTO's, and this is inevitably the story that I hear.

Does this mean that police shouldn't be allowed to carry everywhere? Absolutely not. They have every right to self defense and their armed presence is a bonus even outside their jurisdiction. I am 100% for officer carry all the time, everywhere. That being said, I have met many an officer who does not carry off-duty, and I always do my best to try and talk them into it.

But there are a couple of facts that must be dealt with here:

1. Police need firearms available. They need them because they deal with very dangerous people who will kill them just because of their job. These types of people, however, only come to the attention of the police AFTER they have victimized law abiding citizens like you and me. If the police need weapons to deal with these beasts, what are the law abiding to do?

2. Police officers often do not deal with responsible gun owners. When was the last time the cops showed up at your house? I deal with police at work all the time, but I don't often have occasion for them to show up at my house. My interaction with them is basically work related, or when they see me wearing a Blackwater T-shirt and ask questions. I am usually not armed in these circumstances, or at least the officers THINK I am not armed.

Many other people do not interact so positively to their presence. The nature of their job tends to give them a view of the seedier side of the populace. This taints their view of even the best of us. I have met some fine police officers that have seen me handle weapons safely and use them proficiently. We even went out and I was their DD when they kicked back a few, and we all had a darn good time together.

They wouldn't object to my carry of a weapon because they know my capability with one and my philosophy on its proper use.

I had a particular conversation with an officer at a training course where I mentioned how I wanted to see national CCW for police passed, and then national CCW for citizens, because gun owners could be trusted. To this he responded that most of the gun owners that he met were certainly not responsible. I was naturally suprised at this as it counteracted all we know about lawful gun owners, and I found that his definition included ANYONE who owned a gun, including the violent felon.

I made the point that there was a mighty big difference between myself, who has not been given so much as a speeding ticket, posessing a firearm, and a third time looser posessing a weapon. "Typical gun-nut response..."

He was obviously just kidding, for the most part. There was a tiny grain of truth in that jovial exchange. A lot of people the police deal with are either grossly incompetent with firearms or completely evil with them. Even good guys with guns can be a threat to them. The story comes up of an officer who responded to a break-in call, and upon arriving on the property was shot at by a frightened female home-owner who was so scared she was shooting at everything that moved.

This kind of thing shapes a man's opinion.

3. That leads me to point 3, which is that a great deal of people out there carrying firearms haven't the slightest bit of formal training. The police officers know that they HAVE training, and yet they see how some people wearing a badge are a danger, and logically wonder how bad it must be with a bunch of scared people out there with no training carrying guns. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE FEAR.

The truth lies somewhere in-between. Just as not all cops are incompetent with firearms, not all civilians are either. Civilian statistics show that they are not likely to have accidents or to commit crimes with their weapons, or to react hysterically and shoot the place up for the slightest provocation.

The officer's beat experience tells him that people are wild, unpredictable critters that can go real bad on you real quick. This is because of who he must deal with day to day. The larger picture, however, shows something else.  The larger picture shows that the overwhelming majority of CCW holders are neither irresponsible, or think they are substitute cops. It shows that they behave very carefully and have a lower violent crime rate than even police officers do. It shows that they act violently only when they have to.

No place that has instituted CCW has seen a rise in accidental shootings or in vigilante killings.
The stats speak for themselves. and they tell a much different story than the average beat officer's experience would tell. The average cop's instincts are GOOD AND NECESSARY for what they must do, but the tools developed to be a good police officer and the gut instincts on certain issues related to their dealings with people do not always translate to good public policy.

Police officers are naturally very mistrusting of other people. Their job requires them to basically discount just about everything anyone without a badge tells them. This they need to do their job effectively and to survive. They see things the rest of us don't have to deal with, and don't want to deal with. All of this combines to APPEAR that police think they are "better" than the average citizen. In reality they do not, as I have met guys who at first could be classified in this way, but over time they warmed to me and would have no problem with my being armed in their jurisdiction.

Some officers I know would sooner call me for backup than other members of their own department...

Even some good police officers who are fine people and very brave think that they know better than most of the populace. They are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in most cases. They do indeed know a great deal more about reality than most folks do. They see themselves as the protector to the clueless, and in the most part they are.

But one thing I have done is to very gently remind those I have met who harbor this (perfectly justified given the circumstances) opinion of a simple truth: They are not my protector. They serve a general protective function in society that is beneficial to me. But if some bad man decides I will be his next meal, I will most likely have to confront him on my own. I can dial 911, but the nature of violent attack is such that help will probably be too far out to do me any good.

Ever seen police respond to a shots fired call for another officer? They go to assist like their hair was on fire. Yet how often are they able to get there in time to assist in the fight? Not often. If even the POLICE cannot rely on the police for individual protection against violent men, how am I to?

The "us vs. them" mentality between law abiding gun owners and cops is just plain stupid. WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE HERE. (This excludes those who abuse their badge, or civilians who think that all cops are crooks, etc...) THERE IS NO REASON FOR US TO BE AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS.

Us vs Them is EXACTLY what the antis want. We are fools to give into it.

95+% of cops out there are good people trying hard to do a sucky job. They face pressures that many/most of regular citizens just do not understand.

An even larger percentage of gun owners out there are good people who want nothing more than to live their lives unmolested by evil men.

Both groups face the same dangers from the violent scumsuckers that our justice system does not adequately deal with. Both groups might not make it home the next morning. One group because of the nature of their job, the other group just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Both groups NEED THE OTHER!!! Good citizens need good cops to help keep their neighborhoods and towns safe. Good cops need good armed citizens to help discourage the violent thugs in the first place.

If every cop was a JBT, we would live in a massively opressive society. If every citizen with access to a gun was a danger, then all the cops would have been killed long ago.

What we really need is to not attempt to incite police, nor do police need to dismiss us. I am a valid CCW permit holder in the state of Virginia. I have HUNDREDS of hours of professional weapons training from some of the best instructors in the world. I have demonstrated my competency with various firearms, and have gone armed every day without endangering myself, any innocents, or a single police officer.

If I go to Maryland, on what basis am I a threat?

What gun owners genuinely need to do is GENTLY remind officers who think I could be with the statistics on concealed carry. The people in their home states who are not a threat to the general welfare while armed will also not be a general threat when they are somewhere else. Criminals will be criminals no matter what location they are in. Similarly being a good guy has nothing to do with locality, but has everything to do with the individual.

Quoted: I am sorry to hear about your friend, ryann. I agree with you that there are too many here that do bash cops. FWIW I try to remain objective and look at the situation logically, in every case. I do stereotype, but I like to gather facts before I open my mouth, and keep the discussion to the facts. Remember, I don't bash cops, I bash individuals, some of who are cops

And the RP forum members are justified in their dim view of ARFCOM. There are people who follow around every police officer who is brave enough to post here and hound them like a demon with a new pitchfork. This is stupid.

Because ARFCOM is largely a fre-for all, these types persist. Occasionally they may even have a good point. Occasionally.

I could be in a crowd of 15,000 people. If 100 of them decided to attack little ol me, I could percieve that the whole crowd was out to get me. This would not be true in a larger sense, but from my point of view all I would be able to see is a bunch of people out for my blood.

The same sort of thing happens here. The overwhelming majority of ARFCOM faithfuls are decent people. Some people here are complete ninnys and kooks. But we all know that the assorted fruits, nuts, and goobers ALWAYS get the spotlight, and usually are the basis upon which the rest of us sane people are judged.

Quoted: Quoted: Okay, fast forwrad to page 3........ I read some of the stuff there...... and the attitude of "IF I'm a LEO in an other jurisdiction and I see someone who needs help, I will"...BULL!  I know of one LEO, a Lt. no the less that says, if he's not on duty IN his jurisdiction, he ain't doing $hit!!  I'm not being paid at that time to put my life on the line is his attitude... call it right/wrong, but not all think they'll put thier nose in somewhere. But that is him..... I guess that LEO doesn't think of is, some people out there maybe former military, ones WHO actually got training (and actually do know how to shoot)!  And not everyone  w/ NCCP (national concealed carry permit) will intervine in a 'situation'. What's this I read...... the former LEO HAVE a National Carry????? Wow, you know "of one LEO"....well that pretty much covers it, doesn't it?

What ever.  That is "one" person's opinion on matters of work.  The others that I know, unfortunately, have that "I'm better then you" type of persona......

That is that..... I shall sit back and read the posts now......

(Maybe this thread will get as entertaining as the one in the Pit w/ that SF_Chris....)

Quoted: Quoted: I am sorry to hear about your friend, ryann. I agree with you that there are too many here that do bash cops. FWIW I try to remain objective and look at the situation logically, in every case. I do stereotype, but I like to gather facts before I open my mouth, and keep the discussion to the facts. Remember, I don't bash cops, I bash individuals, some of who are cops And the RP forum members are justified in their dim view of ARFCOM. There are people who follow around every police officer who is brave enough to post here and hound them like a demon with a new pitchfork. This is stupid. Because ARFCOM is largely a fre-for all, these types persist. Occasionally they may even have a good point. Occasionally. I could be in a crowd of 15,000 people. If 100 of them decided to attack little ol me, I could percieve that the whole crowd was out to get me. This would not be true in a larger sense, but from my point of view all I would be able to see is a bunch of people out for my blood. The same sort of thing happens here. The overwhelming majority of ARFCOM faithfuls are decent people. Some people here are complete ninnys and kooks. But we all know that the assorted fruits, nuts, and goobers ALWAYS get the spotlight, and usually are the basis upon which the rest of us sane people are judged.

I agree.  Sometimes the complaints against police on this board are valid, and worthy of discussion;  other times it gets just silly, like arguing over whether police KIA should have military funerals.

Quoted: I am sorry to hear about your friend, ryann. I agree with you that there are too many here that do bash cops. FWIW I try to remain objective and look at the situation logically, in every case. I do stereotype, but I like to gather facts before I open my mouth, and keep the discussion to the facts. Remember, I don't bash cops, I bash individuals, some of who are cops

Some individuals who are cops, deserved bashed.  I've been bashed here, and actually deserved it.
Its all supposed to be in fun.

Sorry I got so pissed off over the thing with ETHs dog I lost my cool, which is rare, but I still got out of line. (and I thought you were from FL at the time, too)

Discussion is good, I have  learned a lot here in these past three years, and almost non of that came from any kind of circle jerk where everybody agreed.

Quoted: Sorry I got so pissed off over the thing with ETHs dog I lost my cool, which is rare, but I still got out of line. (and I thought you were from FL at the time, too) Discussion is good, I have  learned a lot here in these past three years, and almost non of that came from any kind of circle jerk where everybody agreed.

You don't owe me an apology for that, I was trying to be flippiant, but it didn't come out right.  I got bashed, then tried to defend the indefensible, and dug myself in deeper.  I was out of line, trading jabs or not I shouldn't fuck with peoples emotions.
I'm really not quite the asshole I come across as, my humor depends a lot on voice inflection which you don't get in print.
No, I was wrong on that one.

DC Law seems like a real idiot.

I have seen what kind of shot some of these cops are, and some of them are pathetic, and downright dangerous to everyone but the target.

We also have one guy who comes in once or twice a week, and trains. Drawing from his duty rig, with his duty gun.
I respect him.

AS for the level of training, simulators and range time do not convey the reality of a shoot out, and most cops have never been, and will never be involved in a shooting.

And what d othey have to fear on vaction that I don't have to fear, especially if they are out of state?
DO they REALLY think that every person who they have locked up for DIP is out to get them?
Or is it just delusions of grandure on their part?

I think it's #2.

And we are supposed to believe it when cops pay lipservice to CCH holders? That site is made up of rank and file cops, right? THe same rank and file that we are constantly being told that they support CCH holders?

Seems like the truth is coming out.

Maybe I'll become and auxillary cop just to get the bennies.

Bump and a bookmark.

John_Wayne777: "If every cop was a JBT, we would live in a massively opressive society. If every citizen with access to a gun was a danger, then all the cops would have been killed long ago."

Yep, ain't it da truth.

LEO's jobs, like judges, on a daily basis deal mostly with the bottom rungs of society.  And they sometimes start thinking everyone is like the trash they deal with.  They need to remember most people, whom they never come in contact with, are just nice folks earning a living, going to school, etc.

And citizens, man, you don't want to have to deal with the crap most cops deal with daily.

But with all that, I am not better off unarmed, I don't care what cops, judges, or politicians think.  I don't care about their safety or peace of mind like I care about mine and my family's.  Tough.

I'll take care of my business, they can take care of theirs.  

Quoted: Well I'm for everyone having nationwide CCW carry: All except for Spectre. Jay

Hey, when I said I knew some LEOs who COULD shoot good, I was thinking of you !!
I'm crushed.