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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:44:47 PM EDT
[#1]
A 18" barrel on a pistol gripped break open single or double will fall below the 26" minimum. The receiver length of a 18" barreled pump or semi puts them over the length easily. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:45:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Basicly Randy Weaver did not use alot of his SF background. He jumped up and fought like hell when he was attacked. At the end of the day He was framed, and unjustly hunted, and vindicated. He paid a very high price to remind us all that unless we are willing to fight for our rights and freedoms we do not have any. God watch over his wife and son...
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:45:45 PM EDT
[#3]
If you say so....  ATF's Form 1 might disagree with you. As does the National Firearms Act.  |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:46:59 PM EDT
[#4]
I find a sense of irony in those who blindly accuse Randy Weaver of being a "White Supremacist"
when he was most definitely not. All these allegations during a time when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms was FORMALLY under investigation for white supremacist activities within its OWN RANKS. There is a REASON that ATF has been heavily investigated, reformed, and put under constant watch by OTHER Feds. They don't seem to be making as many screwups that result in the murder of wives and children of late. Or stomping kittens to death - or kicking a pregnant mother in the stomach......( I have documentation of that as well in separate ATF raid cases). |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:47:22 PM EDT
[#5]
This thread is just stupid to being with.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:47:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Some of you guys are real meatheads.
Randy Weaver was not the one who went looking for trouble. Trouble found him and trouble's name was "United States Government." Weaver and his family just wanted to be left alone. The further the Weavers retreated from society, the harder the feds pursued them. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:48:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Pump, semi-auto, SxS, or O/U is irrelevant. Shorter than 26" OAL is NFA jurisdiction.... |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:48:42 PM EDT
[#8]
When did I ever say I agreed with the feds on this one? Wait. I didn't. The only thing I said was the man, IMO, was a nutjob. You're the one who was "personally insulted" when someone referred to him as a nutjob. I simply explained why someone would think he was a nutjob, innocent or not. The point of this thread was an evaluation of his tactics. All the discussion of innocence or guilt is technically irrelevant to this discussion. So where does that leave you? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:50:53 PM EDT
[#9]
In addition to the fact the ATF went through a class action lawsuit brought by black ATF agents because of their annual "Good Ol Boy Roundups" where they searched cars coming in for black people and issued N*gger Hunting Licenses. Ok, Dport, what is your opinion on that? And they were investigating white supremacists? Why? Get rid of competition? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:52:07 PM EDT
[#10]
I agree that what happened with the court date and warrant was a miscarriage of justice and the judge and prosecutor involved both should have been out of a job at a minimum-BUT no matter how badly Weaver was hosed by the system, he was a white supremecist ("I only went to those white supremecist meetings for the picnics"  ) and HE ADMITS that he sold guns to a man that told him he intended to rob banks and attack United States armory-he fully believed he was assisting people who were going to attack this country, Weaver is no better than anyone who would supply bombs or other weapons to al queda, he was more than willing to assist people who told him they were violent criminals and enemies of this country. That gunowners think this person is a hero is disgusting. While he was certainly a victim of the federal government he still took actions that he believed were assisting people intending to take actions that could kill or injure innocent americans -ptui on Randy Weaver.Oh that's out of HIS book by the way. 
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:55:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Locked by 1900 PST.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:56:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Doubtful it will make it that long..... Certainly there have to be some Lon Hourichi fans out there to make it interesting. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:56:53 PM EDT
[#13]
See, I don't think anyone here is calling him a hero, but they are saying that the Feds screwed the pooch royally here, and then swept it under the carpet...and regardless of Randy's actions, his wife certainly didn't deserve to be killed by a trigger happy FBI sniper.....I don't think people are lauding Randy, as much as attacking the Feds and thier motives and actions, before, during and after the incident.... |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:57:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Not unless your RAMBO!! 
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:58:05 PM EDT
[#15]
WildBoar you are incorrect. This is why preban Mac 10 carbines (made in 1981) had to have fixed stocks to comply with the overall length requirement. The M10 receivers was simply too short to legally permit a collapsable stock without being a SBR. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:59:06 PM EDT
[#16]
My guess is they were polictically embarrassed into investigating WS and went too far. Knee-jerk over-reactions aren't uncommon in .gov service. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:01:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Of course old Lon should be in prison for shooting Weaver's wife, but stick around, plenty of people think that rat is a great guy. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:03:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Poor Tactics
Poor Choices He got what he wanted - a showdown with the law. He was reported to have said, "if they want me they can try to come get me". What happened to his family was his fault. What would you do if you heard the sherriff wanted you for questioning? I tell you what I would do - I'd go straight down there and talk to him to find out what is going on. But then again, I'm not a criminal/dipshit who fantasizes about a shootout with the .gov. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:06:58 PM EDT
[#19]
No, apparently you are the garden variety dipshit. 
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:08:05 PM EDT
[#20]
I was under the impression that the OAL of a gun with a folding stock was measured with the stock deployed (AFA the NFA goes, state law may differ). IIRC the Uzi semi carbines & "paratrooper" M1A1 carbines are under 26" when folded. Same for the underfolder semi AK models. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:08:28 PM EDT
[#21]
He wasn't in any racist organization. ATF entrapped him so they could coerce him into joining racist groups as an informant. He was a known racial seperatist, who had some credability with some members of racist organizations, or at least that's what ATF thought. But it is clear that he wasn't out lynching people, burning crosses, or conspiring with others. He just wanted to be left alone with his family. Based upon the article in the American Rifleman, ATF arrested Randy on his weapons charge by putting agents on the side of the road in a "broken down" car. He was jumped, thrown in the mud, handcuffed, etc., when he stopped to help. While arrested, ATF tried to coerce him into working for them. When released, he took his family and ran. He was certainly living in the margins of our society, and his racial beliefs are far from PC. But as individual human beings go, he seems to be a decent person. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:12:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Ah, so he was a white seperatist, not a white supremist. Well, why didn't anyone say so? White seperatist is what white supremists call themselves to make them look better. Nutjob! |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:12:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Bullshit... The ATF sent SEVERAL undercover officers posed as travelers around his house. 2 agents posed as a couple drove up to his house. Mr. Weaver was cordial and open with the 2 "strangers" and invited them into his house. Sounds like a dangerous criminal type to me. Hey ATF JBT's, I know its a hard concept to understand, but next time you go calling on some supposed criminal, can you just try knocking at the door first??? This shoot first and killing people shit is getting a little old. 
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:12:40 PM EDT
[#24]
That's correct, as I learned the hard way in the technical forums.. It's measured with the stock deployed. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:13:48 PM EDT
[#25]
You are blind if you don't think he was a white supremist. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:16:09 PM EDT
[#26]
sep·a·ra·tist Pronunciation Key (spr--tst, spr-, sp-r-) n. # One who secedes or advocates separation, especially from an established church; a sectarian or separationist. # One who advocates disjunction of a group from a larger group or political unit: Basque separatists. I suppose Buddhist are nutjobs too, because they certianly dont think like you do... |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:16:30 PM EDT
[#27]
It is your responsibility as an American to keep an eye on your government and question what they do and how they do it. It is a healty expercise. You are failing in your most basic responsibility as a US citizen. "The gas chambers are to your left, son... Oh don't forget to stop at the Kool-Aid stand along the way" Dave |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:16:46 PM EDT
[#28]
And anyone would have to be blind to not see you for the white "apologist" that you are. Feeling guilty, are ya??? 
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:19:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Just very ignorant. You are a sad little man. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:19:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Could be. But remember the receiver group on a MAC is still shorter than one on an UZI or AK. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:20:08 PM EDT
[#31]
This is a good play by play.. gets good about page 12
www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html?sect=18 |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Regardless of HOW you interpret the terms, get the facts straight...he was a seperatist, not a supremist. If you can't get the facts correct...that just shows that the rest of your hypotheses are probably BS too.... |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:20:33 PM EDT
[#33]
What? hahahaha, this is the funniest thread I have read in a long while. Jesus, someone calls Randy Weaver a nutjob and half of you guys get offended. The white "apologist"? ok then. Not even sure what you mean by that. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:20:42 PM EDT
[#34]
A big +1 Bob |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:21:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Just to clear up one big misconception:
Randy Weaver was not a tabbed 18 series Special Forces soldier. He served in a support MOS in a Special Forces unit. Even if he had been, it is a big fallacy to assume that every special operations soldier is somehow a lifetime uber tactical superhuman. There was a pretty well researched and unbiased book (IIRC) called "Ambush At Ruby Ridge". The surprising fact is that the principal "leader" of the family was Weaver's wife Vicki. She became involved with the Christian Identity religious thing, and that started the family on the road that ended in Idaho. If you really research it, you will leave astounded at the audacity of the .gov, regardless of how you feel about Weaver. How many of you Weaver critics know that at his trial, his lawyer rested with out presenting a defense phase, because the prosecution phase had been so damning to its own case, or that the State of Idaho attempted to place charges againsr Feds? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:21:38 PM EDT
[#36]
As I said before, a white seperatist is what a white supremist calls himself to make him look better. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:23:01 PM EDT
[#37]
And that just shows you to be an idiot...if you can't comprehend the difference... Try a dictionary |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:23:16 PM EDT
[#38]
What? A member of the Weaver family, his wife no less, a member of the Christian Identity group, a White Supremist organization? I thought he was a white seperatist, what would he be doing married to a member of the Chrsitian Identity movement? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:25:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Poor speller  
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:25:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Thanks, I have. White separatism White separatism is the belief that those who are of white or Caucasian race should have separate institutions or even separate societies, territories, governments, and should not "breed" with those considered to be of non-white races. White separatists often label themselves as racialists rather than racists. [[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_separatism#Controversial_Groups)] White separatism is one among many forms of separatism. Many white separatists believe in white supremacy, but some do not. Some consider the segregationists of the Southern United States and the advocates of apartheid in South Africa as being white separatists as these advocates of segregationism and apartheid used the same language of separatism and denied that they were "White supremacists" despite evidence to the contrary. Both groups also had advanced a belief in the inherent "inferiority" of non-whites, whom they claimed are incapable of properly either governing themselves or any other races. Some segragationists put forward the proposition that "separation" doesn't necessarily mean superiority and thus endorsed the "separate but equal" proposition for educational segregation that the U.S. Supreme Court struck down in the case of Brown v. Board of Education. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:27:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Interesting any idea what his MOS was? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:28:11 PM EDT
[#42]
The whole family was deeply involved in Christian Identity, however, Randy Weaver had met with full blown neoNazi types like Aryan Nations, etc; and found their beliefs were not his own. He was involved with "soveriegnity" and tax issues and had run for Sherrif on a Libertarian crank type platform. This brought him to the attention of the Feds who wanted him to infiltrate the Aryan Nations. When he refused the whole shotgun issue was created to use as a lever to coerce Weaver into working for the Feds. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:29:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Speeling NAZI!!!! (hey... SOMEONE had to invoke Godwin's Law!  )
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:30:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Don't get me wrong, I think he was railroaded and what happened to him was wrong on so many levels. Just because he was a nutjob, that doesn't give the govt. the excuse to do what it did. I never advocated that "he had it coming" or anything like that. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:30:47 PM EDT
[#45]
There you go....while some seem to be supremists, others aren't. Randy says he WAS NOT a supremist. Now, I am going on his word...if you are calling him a liar, that is another thing. Hell, I don't see anything particularly wrong with it...I myself would prefer to live seperate and not deal with any muslims at this point, so I don't begrudge anybody their desire to do so... If a man or a family wants to cut themselves off from society, and they don't harm anybody doing it...more power to 'em... |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:30:49 PM EDT
[#46]
 GM |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:37:17 PM EDT
[#47]
All the non gov't appologist things I've read indicate he was not a supremacist but a separatist from my reading there is a distinct difference. Separatists just want to live apart from other races but don't feel other races are lesser |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:40:39 PM EDT
[#48]
edit it was answered
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:41:28 PM EDT
[#49]
True, but under 26" is under 26". Shouldn't matter if it's a 25" OAL underfolder AK, a ~24" Uzi folder or whatever. A quick detatchable stock could be a different matter. Just the same, the AMD-65 kit I'm putting together is probably going to get a standard rear block & a EG/Romanian side folder to ooch the OAL out to +26" (just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you). I could go with an extra long barrel extension but it'd look kinda stupid. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:45:01 PM EDT
[#50]
I have been out of the biz for a while and forgot quit a bit. |
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