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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:12:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Here's a newsflash...
Everything is speculation and no one has ANY facts regarding this particular issue. I think you're ALL talking from your asses. Wait for some more info before you start brow beating each other. This is like watching a school yard fight. Throttle back fellas... |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:12:31 AM EDT
[#2]
I doubt an entire platoon refused an order w/o cause. That may not help them, though. As far as the funding goes, the farther forward you get, the less the money shows up.
This platoon may be the sacrificial lambs that get the frontline troops what they need. I imagine GWB is going to be looking for a fatass REMF or two to fry. GWB: Why were those trucks in bad shape? What are you doing with the $150,000,000,000? REMF: Uhhhh...it's a temporary problem, sir. GWB: So is your future, general... |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:12:46 AM EDT
[#3]
So you think it would be lawful to put bad fuel in your hummvee? That fuel will cause a BREAKDOWN in your vehicle that will leave you stranded in a HOTZONE. Say you tanked up a whole platoon of vehicles, that could kill alot of soldiers. Thats like delivering ammo that doesnt fire. What do you tell the soldier then? You still have a knife? The RIGHT thing for them to do would have been to dump the fuel. Load up the GOOD trucks with good fuel. Use the extra personnel as extra security. Deliver what you can. We just got a shitload of Gas Tankers transfered into my unit. They lost no one. They refused several times. No charges. They also didn't stop for anything several times as well. Kids in the road, human chains, live fire, protests. Gives new meaning to Drive on. This crew had connections to the recon units. They got news of ambushes in advance, unlike some units. Mostly RPGs. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:14:11 AM EDT
[#4]
Goddamn! I love how you guys are so quick to jump on one side or the other just by reading a fucking story. You or I have no idea what happened or was/is happening over there with their fuel/trucks/support etc.
Those 16 soldiers are over there defending you right to sit here and talk shit and all you have to say is "string 'em up". Last time I checked they were US soldiers, someone's sons and daughters who serve our fine country and you want to fucking string 'em up without so much as a half a fucking clue to what really happened. Some of you guys piss me off to high hell with your self rightous bullshit.  I am not saying they are right or wrong or what I would have done in that situation, all I am saying is why are you so quick to jump without all the information. Maybe they did the right thing by refusing to deliver that fuel, maybe they are a bunch of fucking pussies but guess fucking what? You don't know, cause your ass wasn't there. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:14:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Thanks mom. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:15:23 AM EDT
[#6]
This thread is really helping my post count.
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:16:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Mine too..
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:17:20 AM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:17:31 AM EDT
[#9]
An order is an order.
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:17:43 AM EDT
[#10]
Wanna fight about it? 
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:18:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Your welcome son, now remember to wash behind your ears 
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:18:11 AM EDT
[#12]
So what good would updated body armor do them? NONE. Armored plating on their vehicles? NONE, you don't armor plate the tanks it makes the truck too heavy. Lack of support? Support assests are probably being used in an offensive, which makes them less vulnerable. Assets engaging the enemy need those supplies and they refused. That is cowardice. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:19:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Voting for Kerry aren't ya? Same rhetoric he said when he abandanded and sold out the military in Vietnam. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:20:36 AM EDT
[#14]
I could not find the article, nor on CNN, or and U.S. Rep. Bennie Thompson website, so I only know what is posted here. My sheltered opinion of the issue depends on the situation.
I feel the soldiers are in the wrong if: What ever supplies there were tasked to transport was urgently needed. Example. The supply depot gets a call from some position that they are out of ammo, about to be overrun, and only have treaty-banned flame throwers to fend of the heathenistic heathens, and they are low on fuel and need more NOW! I feel the soldiers are in the right if: Supply run was routine and nothing would be amiss if the supplies were a day late. Example. The supply depot gets call for more fuel because the BBQ is postponed because they don't have enough to fuel to cook their camel burgers. Thats my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:20:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Not having been in the military I guess i'm a keyboard commando.
I read the story on Drudge and the first thing that came to my mind was "cowards". I hope they are all prosecuted, dishonorably discharged and spend time in Leavenworth. If they are not then it sets a precedent. The precedent being, if the orders given may cause you bodily harm then you have the right to refuse. What kind of bullshit is that when your fighting a war? I havent read all the responses to this thread so I hope I haven't inadvertently quoted somebody. There should be a poll. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:22:57 AM EDT
[#16]
In the military, especially in a combat zone, you don't get to make those decisions. When you are given an order, you do it. Otherwise, our military would go down the shitter if every unit who thought a mission was too dangerous wouldn't go. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:23:03 AM EDT
[#17]
I think we need a littel thread softener!
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:26:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Damned right!! The only thing that scares me more then a crackhead on The Strip with a crowbar is a fucking ignorant ass with a gun who thinks human life is nothing. YOU. BAN GUNS. SAVE ME!! |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:26:32 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:26:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Nowhere does it say that they refused to deliver unusable fuel. They refused to put their asses on the line because they were scared of being ambushed. Hell fucking yeah I would roll through Compton like that if there was someone on the other side I had to reach. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:29:02 AM EDT
[#21]
Bullshit. Read the article. The fuel had already been turned away by one base, they had to do SOMETHING with it so they ordered them to go to the next base. Well, if its contaminated and one base cant use it, why the hell can another? Gee, I didnt know the HUmvee's at base 1 used a different blend of fuel then the Humvee's at base 2..... |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:29:09 AM EDT
[#22]
Normandy, 1944 - Sir, that beach looks rather hazardous. Let's skip this mission, OK?
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:29:27 AM EDT
[#23]
Orders are orders.
A good officer or NCO may raise questions if they feel the orders are unsound, or if there is a better solution. But refusing an order in a combat zone, even a stupid order, can lead to a breakdown of discipline. That causes troops to die. It doesn't matter whether or not the fuel was good, or whether the soldiers in the convoy felt that the supplies "needed" to be delivered. That is not an issue. They refused A LEGAL ORDER. "They", being an entire platoon. In my book, that sounds like mutiny. Whoever the senior man was, FAILED as a leader. He should have pushed the issue up his Chain, if it was indeed a valid issue. To instigate mutiny, rather than do your job.... ...I say send them to Levenworth. Do I know the whole story? Nope. I know this, though: Lawful orders. Disobeyed. War. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:31:13 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#25]
The problem is that you can't under any circumstances have a platoon of enlisted people refusing orders unless it's a plain as the nose on your face that it is wrong. By the diversity of opinion here, it wasn't and by the fact they are under detention the staff certainly didn't think so.
Whether the base needs fuel or the fuel was conaiminated doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. As far as we know, the movement was a decoy even. Hell they may not know either but then that's the point. I can remember a time in my day when CBS filmed a platoon refusing to walk down the path which they knew to be boobytrapped and the public labeled an entire 500,000 plus military cowards. These guys weren't refusing to go but simply go this way instead of that way. Like it or not by not following orders, these people disgraced not only themselves but their fellow soldiers or worse since all we have is their word that the convoy wasn't necessary. You can paint this any color you like but the fact remains that they refused an order and are up on charges for it. Some other mothers son will now have to do their duty for them and may ultimately pay the price. For this reason alone, they should have done their duty. I have no sympathy or understanding for if not necessary was a criteria I would never have served for my entire war was not necessary and we may find this one is too. Tj |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:32:46 AM EDT
[#26]
I wonder who needed that fuel? |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:32:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Well....they're safe now....they're going to be breaking rocks at Leavenworth for the next twenty years....  I hope it was worth it to them.....
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:32:58 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:33:28 AM EDT
[#29]
What it comes down to is this.
I didnt join the military becaase of dumbfuck quackass's that make the orders. Am I willing to die to deliver socks to someone? HELL NO! Am I willing to die to deliver contaminated and unusable fuel? HELL NO! Am I willing to die to deliver emptry brass to a base with no reloading equipment? HELL NO! Am I willing to die to deliver ammo to a unit who needs it to continue? YES. Unfortunately, not every instance is the last one. Case in point? This exact news article. Your ORDERED to risk dying to deliver something COMPLETELY FUCKING USELESS cause some quack ass commander THINKS it should go there. THE FUEL WAS CONTAMINATED. IT WAS WORTHLESS. Will I die to deliver useless supplies to a base? HELL NO. Hence me not being in the military. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:36:10 AM EDT
[#30]
If your POL people are any good, water will not be a problem. We were always told to do a drain check for water before tapping into a new tanker/bladder, but then this was 20+ years ago too. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:36:41 AM EDT
[#31]
I wonder what KRAMERD's take on this would be. Remember him? Anybody knew whatever happened to the dentist in the reserves who wouldn't go if deployed? "It's too dangerous out there. I didn't sign up to get in danger..."
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:38:01 AM EDT
[#32]
That is so awesome. But these guys are in the military, and if they were ordered to deliver dirty socks to the Mongolian Bicycle Brigade in the North Pole with nothing but Yugo hatchbacks, it is not their place to question orders. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:38:07 AM EDT
[#33]
i dont think I could find one vehical that isn't deadlined in my guard motor pool.
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:41:12 AM EDT
[#34]
You're full of shit. You would never join, you'd never serve. You're too self absorbed and selfish. Like it or not, the military requires one to obey orders. And you, Private Snuffy are not always in the loop, in terms of the REASONS for such orders.
You're just another member of a spoiled and selfish generation. You have no understanding of why or how men of character serve. You keep playing you XBox, we'll defend the Nation. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:42:10 AM EDT
[#35]
I agree, you should follow orders. It is a soldiers duty, EVERY SOLDIERS duty, to follow the orders he is given. And thats all anyone can focus on. The soldiers did not due their duty. Well fuck that. i see TOW duties. One is a coldiers duty to follow orders. Another is a Commanders duty to not ask his soldiers to follow senseless orders, and not risk his men when he doesnt have to. The soldiers fialed in their duties. The Commander failed in his. BOTH should be punished. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:44:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Simple solution...
Their court-martial board should be composed of members from the unit(s) to which they were supposed to deliver that fuel... Oh, P.S. Water is heavier than fuel... In a pinch, the fuel CAN be 'decontaminated'... |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:44:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Most people reading this don't realize that there is a difference between admin, safety, and hard deadlines. If the vehicle moved, we used it. If it didn't move, we made it move. I had one HMMWV that didn't push past 45 and was S_L_O_W on hills. And I had to limp back to base with HMMWVs in tow on more than one occasion. One time, we had a radiator leak between Mosul and Dohuk, basically in the middle of nowhere, far from Q-West. I was pretty upset, we would have to tow a HMMWV back about 150 miles through Iraq, including Mosul. Not a pretty thought. We got to Dohuk, and one of our soldiers known as the "Mad Scientist" tinkered with the HMMWV while everyone else walked around. Anyway, to my surprise he fixed it by doing some crazy shit with the fan belts? or something.  Boy was I glad, and we got back just fine.
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:46:13 AM EDT
[#38]
I hear they make you march, even when you have BLISTERS!
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:47:26 AM EDT
[#39]
Lawful order = Move you fuckin' ass
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:47:39 AM EDT
[#40]
That's not my point. They brought up the contaminated fuel as an afterthought. The rationale given for disobeying the order was that the convoy was dangerous and that their trucks were deadlined - in their words, it was a "suicide mission", NOT that it was futile. They, and you, are trying to justify their cowardice after the fact. Might the situation be different than currently reported? Perhaps. But right now I see a unit that disobeyed a direct order out of concern for their own safety and then tried to justify it with the "oh yeah, the fuel was contaminated". |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:47:41 AM EDT
[#41]
You apparently live in a world where you think junior troops are kept fully apprised of all stratagies, tactics and developing intel. I thank God that, by your own admission, you are not part of the military because you would surely cost lives of many brave Marines and soldiers counting on you to perform your sworn duty. Please, sir, do not try to profess your "expertise" on what should, or should not, be done in a combat zone to those of us who have served and been there. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:47:50 AM EDT
[#42]
I can agree with you there, maybe not in this case, but maybe. Leaders are ALWAYS responsible for what their men do or fail to do, and for their own actions. Soldiers still don't have the right to question their orders. That's one of the risks, and a VERY necessary risk you take. Letting those soldier get away with their refusal would lead to serious lapses in discipline and a breakdown in general. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:48:16 AM EDT
[#43]
What?? Nooo, try again Highspeed. I;m SMART enough not to put my life in some jackasses hands who only wants to show off for his superiors. I'm smart enough not to put my life in someones hands who doesnt have any regard for my life. You can preach bravery and character and blow smoke up my ass all you want, its very simple. I have enough respect for my own life not to trust it to some quack ass commander who may or may not give a shit if I end up in a fuckin body bag trying to deliver pink fuckin panties to the Iraqi cheerleader team for their next soccer game which is sitting right in the middle of Al Queda's main camp. Fuck all that. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:48:46 AM EDT
[#44]
You nailed it. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:50:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Exactly. You're too self-absorbed, and spoiled to serve in the military. You expressed that perfectly. I couldn't have put it any better. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:50:32 AM EDT
[#46]
I think the point is that the soldiers DO NOT get to make the judgment of whether their commander's orders are stupid or senseless - that is the job of their commender's commender, NOT his subordinates (unless it is an illegal order, and this was not). Plus, the issue of whether the fuel was contaminated is at best hearsay - based on what one of these criminals told his mom. That's about as reliable as a car-thief calling his mom from jail and telling her that the owner of the car "loaned" it to him. And, whether the fuel is contaminated or not is still a compeltely irrelevant issue, because it's not their perogative to refuse to obey and order becase THEY think it's stupid. (Plus, what a coincindence, that the order that was so pointless because of the "contaminated fuel" just happened to be one that was really dangerous ). |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:51:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Yep, and some other patriot is now doing the job you once did and may die for it. Happy? Just a personal preferance mind you but if they would take old farts like me, I'd be there with all the BS that was there and will always be there for if I can save one other from having to do it, I would. This is why I joined in the first place. One does not serve to take lives but to save lives. The taking is just a side benifit.  Tj |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:53:30 AM EDT
[#48]
Tagged to see where this goes.
I have some thoughts on the matter that I won't share 'cause I've never served in the *.mil. Seems like a really good time for me to keep my mouth shut.
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:56:28 AM EDT
[#49]
Your confusing self absorbed with self preservation. I'm not dying because some pencil pusher wants to advance his career. I'm not dying because someone wants to look "on the ball" or look like a hard charger. Call it what you will. I myself call it common fucking sense. I'm not putting my life into someones hands who views me as nothing more then a number, and doesnt give a shit one way or another if that number is a seat or a bag on the plane back home. So, like I said. You can preach bravery and bullshit all you want. At the end of the day the simple fact is, I'm smart enough to to put my life in the hands of a dumbass. |
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Posted: 10/15/2004 10:57:44 AM EDT
[#50]
How many days have you served in uniform? Soldiers, sailors, and airmen have had to ferry supplies in what are essentially sitting ducks since war began, and do so without questioning orders. Both the losers in this incident and you are COWARDS of the first order. |
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