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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:08:11 PM EDT
[#1]
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers. 
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. Penn makes a point in his book that you are either a believer or atheist, there is no middle ground. You either believe that there is a deity or you dont, someone who self describes as an agnostic does not believe that there is a deity and is really an atheist. Atheism doenst mean that you will forever believe there is no deity, just that you dont currently believe. I suppose, from the point of view of a Christian, that's correct. If youre not a believer, you're a non believer and "going to hell". From a non believer's standpoint (speaking from a scientific one) we can only say that it can't be proven either way, so we do not know. But if you really believe in the texts, and all that jazz.................you are not allowed to make the safe bet and still be admitted to heaven...................I.E........put your chips in the believe basket because you don't want to "miss out." |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:09:34 PM EDT
[#2]
Yea, it's ok to say "I don't know" instead of throwing it in the God bin and calling it a day.
Quoted: Quoted: Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you.  Oh, the irony. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:14:59 PM EDT
[#3]
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Yea, it's ok to say "I don't know" instead of throwing it in the God bin and calling it a day. Quoted:
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Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you.
Oh, the irony. It really does depend on your point of view. It's not as simple as "throw God in the bin, have a good day." It is my personal belief. I don't demand you choose my path, but don't demand I choose yours either. I go with subnet here, and I'll say that I'm an agnostic atheist..........in that I believe that it is a question that cannot be solved as of yet........so I cannot say for sure, but I don't believe in God or heaven or any of that stuff. What does that have anything to do with you, or what you believe.........at all? Why does it bother you in the slightest? |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:18:46 PM EDT
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers.
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. In the spirit of education (and that's all it is - it's the only reason I participate in these threads at all), you can actually be both. Most people I know define agnosticism as addressing what can be known, and atheism as addressing what is believed. That leads people like me to say I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know there is no God (which makes me agnostic), but neither do I believe in one (which makes me atheist). I'll admit, it's splitting hairs. My parents are very, very Christian, and they think of me as an agnostic. It's not technically correct, but in the spirit of harmony, I go with it. To them, atheism means "No hope" and agnosticism means "There's a chance!". But anyway, there you go. Belief vs knowledge. That's the distinction. When I say atheism, I'm referring to what is believed (or not believed, really), rather than what can be known. And this applies to most every intelligent non-believer I know. So really if you think about it, you could call me either an atheist or an agnostic, and it wouldn't effectively matter. I live my life under the (subject to change) assumption that there is no God, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what label you put on it. The result is identical. I prefer non-believer, in case anybody cares.  If you want to go full geek with it, I suppose I could find an agnostic theist - somebody who acknowledges the possibility that God may not exist, but currently believes in him just the same, when asked. Pascal might have been one of these, when he formulated his famous wager. You and I had similar upbringings wrt religion, so I can really relate to what you've said on the subject (not only in this thread). I probably lean toward your later description. I wish I could fully believe, like my grandparents. They lived wonderful, grounded, loving, comforted lives, largely due to their perception and perspective of the world, through their beliefs. Whether they were correct or not doesn't change the benefit their faith was to their lives. Had they not believed, their lives would have been (not sure of the correct word here) less good, I think. I do not see how humans could have evolved as we did, while there are no other animals even close. I believe SOMETHING must have happened to effect us. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:23:40 PM EDT
[#5]
I stopped watching when he said that Barry was "wicked smart."
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:28:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I stopped watching when he said that Barry was "wicked smart." Realizing your enemy is competent is the first step to victory. It amazes me how stupid and idiotic the rationale among most of ARFCom is. They believe the Democrats are so unbelievably incompetent, yet are surprised that they can (somehow) win elections. Its the most insane of confirmation biases. At least Penn understands that his opponents have valid arguments, and attempts to debate them. You're not going to get their side to listen to anything you have to say when you denigrate their president from the get-go. <object width="0" height="0" id="plugin0" type="application/x-dgnria" style="z-index:1000"> [div] [div]</object> |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:44:24 PM EDT
[#7]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. As an Atheist, I find your unfounded assertions to be nonsensical and repudiate your comprehension of my beliefs. Furthermore, your projection that Atheism is a "religion" is a clear indicator that you lack the mental aptitude to fully understand the thought process dynamic of an Atheist. In other words, Atheist don't all think alike! |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:55:10 PM EDT
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers.
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. In the spirit of education (and that's all it is - it's the only reason I participate in these threads at all), you can actually be both. Most people I know define agnosticism as addressing what can be known, and atheism as addressing what is believed. That leads people like me to say I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know there is no God (which makes me agnostic), but neither do I believe in one (which makes me atheist). I'll admit, it's splitting hairs. My parents are very, very Christian, and they think of me as an agnostic. It's not technically correct, but in the spirit of harmony, I go with it. To them, atheism means "No hope" and agnosticism means "There's a chance!". But anyway, there you go. Belief vs knowledge. That's the distinction. When I say atheism, I'm referring to what is believed (or not believed, really), rather than what can be known. And this applies to most every intelligent non-believer I know. So really if you think about it, you could call me either an atheist or an agnostic, and it wouldn't effectively matter. I live my life under the (subject to change) assumption that there is no God, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what label you put on it. The result is identical. I prefer non-believer, in case anybody cares. If you want to go full geek with it, I suppose I could find an agnostic theist - somebody who acknowledges the possibility that God may not exist, but currently believes in him just the same, when asked. Pascal might have been one of these, when he formulated his famous wager. You and I had similar upbringings wrt religion, so I can really relate to what you've said on the subject (not only in this thread). I probably lean toward your later description. I wish I could fully believe, like my grandparents. They lived wonderful, grounded, loving, comforted lives, largely due to their perception and perspective of the world, through their beliefs. Whether they were correct or not doesn't change the benefit their faith was to their lives. Had they not believed, their lives would have been (not sure of the correct word here) less good, I think. I do not see how humans could have evolved as we did, while there are no other animals even close. I believe SOMETHING must have happened to effect us. But you will readily admit that there is as much possibility of it being caused by a wayward cosmic ray hitting the right chimp as it could be a God-like figure....... |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:55:14 PM EDT
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. So, he's pretty much correct on any issue he speaks about (guns, liberty, government, global warming, martial arts, etc) but he's not allowed to not believe in god? He can believe whatever he wants. I just think it's funny that Atheists, who pride themselves on the power of their own minds, don't believe in God because "science hasn't proved it yet." If their powerful minds can't fathom of a god, why then that must mean that God doesn't exist. Because if God did exist, surely minds of their immense caliber would sense it. Tedious and egotistical. U mad bro? |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 6:50:02 PM EDT
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. So, he's pretty much correct on any issue he speaks about (guns, liberty, government, global warming, martial arts, etc) but he's not allowed to not believe in god? He can believe whatever he wants. I just think it's funny that Atheists, who pride themselves on the power of their own minds, don't believe in God because "science hasn't proved it yet." If their powerful minds can't fathom of a god, why then that must mean that God doesn't exist. Because if God did exist, surely minds of their immense caliber would sense it. Tedious and egotistical. Your first mistake is thinking that you know why atheists don't believe in god. As an atheist I don't believe in your god, or any other god for that matter, because I can't decide which one I want to believe in. Maybe I'll worship Ra, or Zeus, or Odin, or any of the thousand other man made gods that humans have believed in at one time or another throughout human history. And don't even think to say that people were all along "striving for the same god" because that's bullshit. The god of various cultures have been so far removed from "your god" that there is no way "they were the same", not to mention we haven't even touched on polytheism. The reason every culture has believed in a god is because we're human, and fit something in to answer the unknown. The unknown scared early ancient cultures (the root of your Christian religion) and the creation of a "god" took some of that fear away, not to mention gave a select few power. It's pretty basic cultural anthropology actually.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 6:56:47 PM EDT
[#11]
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers.
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. In the spirit of education (and that's all it is - it's the only reason I participate in these threads at all), you can actually be both. Most people I know define agnosticism as addressing what can be known, and atheism as addressing what is believed. That leads people like me to say I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know there is no God (which makes me agnostic), but neither do I believe in one (which makes me atheist). I'll admit, it's splitting hairs. My parents are very, very Christian, and they think of me as an agnostic. It's not technically correct, but in the spirit of harmony, I go with it. To them, atheism means "No hope" and agnosticism means "There's a chance!". But anyway, there you go. Belief vs knowledge. That's the distinction. When I say atheism, I'm referring to what is believed (or not believed, really), rather than what can be known. And this applies to most every intelligent non-believer I know. So really if you think about it, you could call me either an atheist or an agnostic, and it wouldn't effectively matter. I live my life under the (subject to change) assumption that there is no God, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what label you put on it. The result is identical. I prefer non-believer, in case anybody cares. If you want to go full geek with it, I suppose I could find an agnostic theist - somebody who acknowledges the possibility that God may not exist, but currently believes in him just the same, when asked. Pascal might have been one of these, when he formulated his famous wager. You and I had similar upbringings wrt religion, so I can really relate to what you've said on the subject (not only in this thread). I probably lean toward your later description. I wish I could fully believe, like my grandparents. They lived wonderful, grounded, loving, comforted lives, largely due to their perception and perspective of the world, through their beliefs. Whether they were correct or not doesn't change the benefit their faith was to their lives. Had they not believed, their lives would have been (not sure of the correct word here) less good, I think. I do not see how humans could have evolved as we did, while there are no other animals even close. I believe SOMETHING must have happened to effect us. Well, to be clear "no other animals even close" is not accurate. First, our most direct ancestors looked very similar to us (the genus Homo). Second, our closest relative the chimpanzee is a lot more human like than you think. Just because you "believe" something must have happened doesn't make it true. There are numerous things in this physical world that's counter intuitive. You describe the classic case of "god of the gaps" thinking. "I don't know what happened so it must have been a god of some kind." |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:10:42 PM EDT
[#12]
I loved it up until "AK-15."
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:36:28 PM EDT
[#13]
I have been thinking the same as penn, obama is an athiest pretending to be a christian man.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:41:59 PM EDT
[#14]
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sorry, you mispelled theist.
No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every theist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. I mean, its clear you are talking about believers, because atheism isn't a religion, so you've got to be talking about theists. Some religious crazies have adopted a method to attack non-believers by saying they have a religion. "See! Atheism is a religion! Ha ha you're religious too!" It doesn't make any sense at all. Its about semantics. They like to pretend that all definitions of a word are equivalent. Unfortunately for them they aren't. What do the Jews have to do with it? 
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:58:12 PM EDT
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Apparently one is to prove to the world how intellectually superior they are. Honestly this, I see this a lot among atheists. Edit- Let me clarify a bit. There are Atheists who don't believe but don't look down upon people who do; I call these people "non believers". Then there are people who look down upon religious people as intellectually inferior. I'm not going to argue there aren't a lot of atheists with a chip on their shoulder about religion, there are often valid reasons for that too but neither of those realities are really relevent to what I want to say in this thread. I don't feel intellectually superior to anyone because they have faith. I think people who allow faith to trump their reason handicap themselves intellectually, and when people do so in the political arena I feel obligated to call them out for it, because that has implications for everybody. That doesn't apply to all believers, but it does seem to apply to a great many, and many of them aren't capable of recognizing that their ability to reeason is compromised, which is an even greater handicap. Of course there are advantages to faith and downsides to its lack as well, but there are genuine differences in the way theist and atheists view the world (obviously) that tend to lead to strife, which is unfortunate. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 9:21:44 PM EDT
[#16]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. Anyone who has listened to Penn Jillette talk about atheism for more than 30 seconds would know this is 99 and 44/100ths percent pure bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 9:42:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. Anyone who has listened to Penn Jillette talk about atheism for more than 30 seconds would know this is 99 and 44/100ths percent pure bullshit. Seriously. Jillette is optimistic beyond any sense of reason. I don't know whether I should admire him or be nauseated. |
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Posted: 11/12/2012 10:40:55 PM EDT
[#18]
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I stopped watching when he said that Barry was "wicked smart." Your hate makes you blind. The man was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. You can dislike and disagree all day but to claim Obama isn't smart is just pissing in the wind. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:11:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. Hey, I found your picture.  |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:37:09 AM EDT
[#20]
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Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you.
Oh, the irony. Yep. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:00:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Very good.
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:08:57 AM EDT
[#22]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. You're God is a joke, where is he now? People who can't question their faith are evolutionary failures, as you're trending. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:21:57 AM EDT
[#23]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. When listening to him it's important to realize he is a con artist. Everything he says - everything - is specifically said for a purpose. He's creating an image in your mind, so that in the end, when he delivers the "hook", you'll accept what he has said as truth; you'll feel as if you had actually come to the conclusions yourself. He's good at what he does but when you realize what he is doing it's much harder for him to get through. I like him, and have always liked him..but you must realize he is an entertainer, a prankster and does what he does as tricks and cons. We will never know what he really believes..and I am fine with that. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:45:05 AM EDT
[#24]
How do you expose the vast retardedness, short sightedness, ignorance, and hate filled patheticness of arfcom GD?
Start a religion thread. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:56:48 AM EDT
[#25]
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How do you expose the vast retardedness, short sightedness, ignorance, and hate filled patheticness of arfcom GD? Start a religion thread. 
Honestly, before I saw your last sentence way at the bottom, I was going to say "start an atheist thread". |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 2:21:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Well, I thought Penn was an intelligent human being....... then i watched that.
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Posted: 11/13/2012 3:29:42 AM EDT
[#27]
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Well, I thought Penn was an intelligent human being....... then i watched that. 
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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:19:13 AM EDT
[#28]
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers.
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. In the spirit of education (and that's all it is - it's the only reason I participate in these threads at all), you can actually be both. Most people I know define agnosticism as addressing what can be known, and atheism as addressing what is believed. That leads people like me to say I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know there is no God (which makes me agnostic), but neither do I believe in one (which makes me atheist). I'll admit, it's splitting hairs. My parents are very, very Christian, and they think of me as an agnostic. It's not technically correct, but in the spirit of harmony, I go with it. To them, atheism means "No hope" and agnosticism means "There's a chance!". But anyway, there you go. Belief vs knowledge. That's the distinction. When I say atheism, I'm referring to what is believed (or not believed, really), rather than what can be known. And this applies to most every intelligent non-believer I know. So really if you think about it, you could call me either an atheist or an agnostic, and it wouldn't effectively matter. I live my life under the (subject to change) assumption that there is no God, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what label you put on it. The result is identical. I prefer non-believer, in case anybody cares. If you want to go full geek with it, I suppose I could find an agnostic theist - somebody who acknowledges the possibility that God may not exist, but currently believes in him just the same, when asked. Pascal might have been one of these, when he formulated his famous wager. You and I had similar upbringings wrt religion, so I can really relate to what you've said on the subject (not only in this thread). I probably lean toward your later description. I wish I could fully believe, like my grandparents. They lived wonderful, grounded, loving, comforted lives, largely due to their perception and perspective of the world, through their beliefs. Whether they were correct or not doesn't change the benefit their faith was to their lives. Had they not believed, their lives would have been (not sure of the correct word here) less good, I think. I do not see how humans could have evolved as we did, while there are no other animals even close. I believe SOMETHING must have happened to effect us. Well, to be clear "no other animals even close" is not accurate. First, our most direct ancestors looked very similar to us (the genus Homo). Second, our closest relative the chimpanzee is a lot more human like than you think. Just because you "believe" something must have happened doesn't make it true. There are numerous things in this physical world that's counter intuitive. You describe the classic case of "god of the gaps" thinking. "I don't know what happened so it must have been a god of some kind." You are displaying typical traits of the militant athiest. A true scientist allows for any possiblity until proven otherwise. I never said your last sentence and resent your trying to put words in my mouth. The whole "chimps are close to humans, from a genetic standpoint" is a bit misleading. Since we're all fairly similar from a bilogical standpoint (as far as mamals go) pointing out that chimps are 1% different in their DNA is a useless comparrison, unless you want to take it a step farther. Let's say there are beings that are 1 or 5% different from us, in the same direction we are from chimps. We would be unable to comprehend their abilities. They would be "gods" as far as we're concerned. If you're of the opinion that chimps are close enough to the animals who built rockets and went to the moon and back, I doubt you're willing to entertain any other possiblity other than your deeply held belief in evolution. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:05:14 AM EDT
[#29]
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I just observe that many take it to the level of dogma, and yet you are here, affirming your lack of belief to the believers.
He's not affirming his lack of belief, as much as he is addressing (to no avail, it seems) the common platitude that atheism is a religion, too. It's not a religion. However, it is "religious" in that it's a belief that cannot be proven (by definition, because it's a negative). I suspect that most ( or at least a lot of) "atheists" who are smart and reasonable people are really agnostic. It would take a lot of arrogance (like that of my own brother) to declare with certainty that there is no supreme being, period. The truth really is that we don't know. As I've mentioned before and elsewhere, religion can be beneficial to individuals in a lot of different and very important ways. I've never heard an argument that believing there is no god is beneficial or comforting or an aid in living a good life. When a loved one is taking their dying breath, is it better to have the belief that they are going to heaven and you'll see them again, or that they are just gonna be worm food and that's it? It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Life is largely about perception and belief. In the spirit of education (and that's all it is - it's the only reason I participate in these threads at all), you can actually be both. Most people I know define agnosticism as addressing what can be known, and atheism as addressing what is believed. That leads people like me to say I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know there is no God (which makes me agnostic), but neither do I believe in one (which makes me atheist). I'll admit, it's splitting hairs. My parents are very, very Christian, and they think of me as an agnostic. It's not technically correct, but in the spirit of harmony, I go with it. To them, atheism means "No hope" and agnosticism means "There's a chance!". But anyway, there you go. Belief vs knowledge. That's the distinction. When I say atheism, I'm referring to what is believed (or not believed, really), rather than what can be known. And this applies to most every intelligent non-believer I know. So really if you think about it, you could call me either an atheist or an agnostic, and it wouldn't effectively matter. I live my life under the (subject to change) assumption that there is no God, so I suppose it really doesn't matter what label you put on it. The result is identical. I prefer non-believer, in case anybody cares. If you want to go full geek with it, I suppose I could find an agnostic theist - somebody who acknowledges the possibility that God may not exist, but currently believes in him just the same, when asked. Pascal might have been one of these, when he formulated his famous wager. You and I had similar upbringings wrt religion, so I can really relate to what you've said on the subject (not only in this thread). I probably lean toward your later description. I wish I could fully believe, like my grandparents. They lived wonderful, grounded, loving, comforted lives, largely due to their perception and perspective of the world, through their beliefs. Whether they were correct or not doesn't change the benefit their faith was to their lives. Had they not believed, their lives would have been (not sure of the correct word here) less good, I think. I do not see how humans could have evolved as we did, while there are no other animals even close. I believe SOMETHING must have happened to effect us. Well, to be clear "no other animals even close" is not accurate. First, our most direct ancestors looked very similar to us (the genus Homo). Second, our closest relative the chimpanzee is a lot more human like than you think. Just because you "believe" something must have happened doesn't make it true. There are numerous things in this physical world that's counter intuitive. You describe the classic case of "god of the gaps" thinking. "I don't know what happened so it must have been a god of some kind." You are displaying typical traits of the militant athiest. A true scientist allows for any possiblity until proven otherwise. I never said your last sentence and resent your trying to put words in my mouth. The whole "chimps are close to humans, from a genetic standpoint" is a bit misleading. Since we're all fairly similar from a bilogical standpoint (as far as mamals go) pointing out that chimps are 1% different in their DNA is a useless comparrison, unless you want to take it a step farther. Let's say there are beings that are 1 or 5% different from us, in the same direction we are from chimps. We would be unable to comprehend their abilities. They would be "gods" as far as we're concerned. If you're of the opinion that chimps are close enough to the animals who built rockets and went to the moon and back, I doubt you're willing to entertain any other possiblity other than your deeply held belief in evolution. Isn't it about time for a "Evolution is a religion!" post? |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:23:50 AM EDT
[#30]
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I stopped watching when he said that Barry was "wicked smart." Realizing your enemy is competent is the first step to victory. It amazes me how stupid and idiotic the rationale among most of ARFCom is. They believe the Democrats are so unbelievably incompetent, yet are surprised that they can (somehow) win elections. Its the most insane of confirmation biases. At least Penn understands that his opponents have valid arguments, and attempts to debate them. You're not going to get their side to listen to anything you have to say when you denigrate their president from the get-go. <object width="0" height="0" id="plugin0" type="application/x-dgnria" style=">[div][div]</object> There exists a vast gulf between "competent" and "wicked smart". Barry is a very capable puppet, The puppetmaster is the one who is "wicked smart", presumably Soros, Ayers, et al. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:26:24 AM EDT
[#31]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. No, I'm an atheist because I'm educated and can form an educated opinion about extreme claims of the supernatural. It's through my education that I have decided that stone age stories and myths are in fact, in my opinion, not true.
You follow and believe in but one god of thousands that have existed in the history of man kind, yet I'm simple minded? Ironic....... So, you're saying that, in your opinion, anyone who ISN'T an Athiest is a moron? |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:33:54 AM EDT
[#32]
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I have been thinking the same as penn, obama is an athiest pretending to be a christian man. This is how I feel about 90% of all politicians and for all of the reasons Penn listed in his video. This was actually a subject I tried to bring up here (arf) a few weeks ago and it didnt get any traction, then I find a PJ video addressing the same subject and it generates interest. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:36:21 AM EDT
[#33]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. When listening to him it's important to realize he is a con artist. Everything he says - everything - is specifically said for a purpose. He's creating an image in your mind, so that in the end, when he delivers the "hook", you'll accept what he has said as truth; you'll feel as if you had actually come to the conclusions yourself. He's good at what he does but when you realize what he is doing it's much harder for him to get through. I like him, and have always liked him..but you must realize he is an entertainer, a prankster and does what he does as tricks and cons. We will never know what he really believes..and I am fine with that. You've never seen a Penn and Teller show have you? They spend the entire show revealing how the 'tricks' are actually done. They believe that the most interesting thing to show people is how they tricks work vs just playing a trick. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:46:23 AM EDT
[#34]
Good video.
These threads are always frustrating because people refuse to think for themselves and do some basic research. When it comes to the big three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), it's not a matter of faith, personal belief, or otherwise. All three depend on the Bible. If the Bible is proven not to be the word of God, then all three are false. Textual criticism and the discovery of additional ancient documents has done just that. There is no debate. It is a proven fact. There were wildly different, competing versions of all three religions, each with their own Bible. Today's doctrines are just the beliefs of the winning groups. People today are used to the idea of the Bible as one book. They forget that it is just a collection of various documents, written by hundreds of mostly anonymous writers over a period of a couple thousand years, which were then collected, edited, re-written, and organized to suit various political and religious regimes. Anyone who is willing to do the reading can find this out for themselves. I know, because that is exactly what I did. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:47:32 AM EDT
[#35]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. No, I'm an atheist because I'm educated and can form an educated opinion about extreme claims of the supernatural. It's through my education that I have decided that stone age stories and myths are in fact, in my opinion, not true.
You follow and believe in but one god of thousands that have existed in the history of man kind, yet I'm simple minded? Ironic....... So, you're saying that, in your opinion, anyone who ISN'T an Athiest is a moron? No, I know that's not true. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:52:30 AM EDT
[#36]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. Yes––he begins by declaring he likes Obama because he is "fundamentally a good man." WTF?
He can't see the evil and pernicious nature of this man when it is on full display and not hidden in any way, but I'm supposed to take him seriously when he uses as an example of the Bible being "wrong" that some crazy person said God told him to use an "AK-15" (sic) to shoot people at a restaraunt? No thanks. 
Anyone who declares Obama to be "good" but Bachman and Perry are "bad" is not someone I care to admire––let alone respect. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:55:57 AM EDT
[#37]
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You are displaying typical traits of the militant athiest. A true scientist allows for any possiblity until proven otherwise. I never said your last sentence and resent your trying to put words in my mouth. The whole "chimps are close to humans, from a genetic standpoint" is a bit misleading. Since we're all fairly similar from a bilogical standpoint (as far as mamals go) pointing out that chimps are 1% different in their DNA is a useless comparrison, unless you want to take it a step farther. Let's say there are beings that are 1 or 5% different from us, in the same direction we are from chimps. We would be unable to comprehend their abilities. They would be "gods" as far as we're concerned. If you're of the opinion that chimps are close enough to the animals who built rockets and went to the moon and back, I doubt you're willing to entertain any other possiblity other than your deeply held belief in evolution.[/div] How in the fuck did you get "Militant atheist" from that post of mine????
My belief is that there is no god, I believe in my heart with 100% confidence that there is no God...but I'll never say it's fact, unlike Christians who allow for no other possible outcome. Like I said, our closest relatives are not even alive anymore. Your comment about how our tremendous similarity to chimps on a gentic standpoint being useless is laughable....spoken like a true scientist? 
But go ahead and tell me what a "scientist" is and isn't and whether or not I am one (I am BTW).
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:04:37 AM EDT
[#38]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. Yes––he begins by declaring he likes Obama because he is "fundamentally a good man." WTF?
He can't see the evil and pernicious nature of this man when it is on full display and not hidden in any way, but I'm supposed to take him seriously when he uses as an example of the Bible being "wrong" that some crazy person said God told him to use an "AK-15" (sic) to shoot people at a restaraunt? No thanks.
Anyone who declares Obama to be "good" but Bachman and Perry are "bad" is not someone I care to admire––let alone respect. Actually he said that he believe Bachman and Perry were good as well. Pen is a huge optimist, watch the entire video before you start misquoting things that are in the first 3 minutes. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:06:00 AM EDT
[#39]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. You're religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. Boom headshot. Double-tap, even! 
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:07:34 AM EDT
[#40]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. Yes––he begins by declaring he likes Obama because he is "fundamentally a good man." WTF?
He can't see the evil and pernicious nature of this man when it is on full display and not hidden in any way, but I'm supposed to take him seriously when he uses as an example of the Bible being "wrong" that some crazy person said God told him to use an "AK-15" (sic) to shoot people at a restaraunt? No thanks.
Anyone who declares Obama to be "good" but Bachman and Perry are "bad" is not someone I care to admire––let alone respect. Actually he said that he believe Bachman and Perry were good as well. Pen is a huge optimist, watch the entire video before you start misquoting things that are in the first 3 minutes. Actually I did watch every second of it. Perhaps I misquoted due to the volume of words, but he certainly had nothing "good" to say about Perry and Bachman. He denigrated them severely, while completely handing a pass to Obama. Screw that. Edit: I just relistened past the four minute mark and he never says anything about Bachman (then adds in Perry out of the blue) except that they have been "blasphemous." He loves Obama and hates Bachman and Perry. Again––no thanks. He's just another Hollywood Obama-loving liberal hiding behind pseudo-intelligent "analysis" of religion and atheism, and using that to denigrate the right, while extolling the virtues of the left. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:13:58 AM EDT
[#41]
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[ Isn't it about time for a "Evolution is a religion!" post?[/div] No. Evolution is a theory. It is religiously believed in by some. Evolution is a fact on the micro level. It can be proven. Since we have only been intelligent and advanced enough to even think about origins for a very short time, we have not observed trans-species evolution so it's still a theory, no matter how likely. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:17:16 AM EDT
[#42]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. Yes––he begins by declaring he likes Obama because he is "fundamentally a good man." WTF?
He can't see the evil and pernicious nature of this man when it is on full display and not hidden in any way, but I'm supposed to take him seriously when he uses as an example of the Bible being "wrong" that some crazy person said God told him to use an "AK-15" (sic) to shoot people at a restaraunt? No thanks.
Anyone who declares Obama to be "good" but Bachman and Perry are "bad" is not someone I care to admire––let alone respect. Actually he said that he believe Bachman and Perry were good as well. Pen is a huge optimist, watch the entire video before you start misquoting things that are in the first 3 minutes. Actually I did watch every second of it. Perhaps I misquoted due to the volume of words, but he certainly had nothing "good" to say about Perry and Bachman. He denigrated them severely, while completely handing a pass to Obama. Screw that. Penn specifically said that he thought Perry and Bachman were good people. I dont know what sort of bias you are working with though..... |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:20:48 AM EDT
[#43]
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If anyone knows Penn Jillette, they would know that he has no ill will toward Christians. I mean, fuck, he's one of Glenn Beck's best friends. I really would wish the militant atheists would can it and just work toward getting along instead of trying to disparage folks. can I buy you a beer? |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:21:04 AM EDT
[#44]
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One of many times, I disagree with Penn. I'd say that Obama definitely has malice in his heart for the USA. Yes––he begins by declaring he likes Obama because he is "fundamentally a good man." WTF?
He can't see the evil and pernicious nature of this man when it is on full display and not hidden in any way, but I'm supposed to take him seriously when he uses as an example of the Bible being "wrong" that some crazy person said God told him to use an "AK-15" (sic) to shoot people at a restaraunt? No thanks.
Anyone who declares Obama to be "good" but Bachman and Perry are "bad" is not someone I care to admire––let alone respect. Actually he said that he believe Bachman and Perry were good as well. Pen is a huge optimist, watch the entire video before you start misquoting things that are in the first 3 minutes. Actually I did watch every second of it. Perhaps I misquoted due to the volume of words, but he certainly had nothing "good" to say about Perry and Bachman. He denigrated them severely, while completely handing a pass to Obama. Screw that. Edit: I just relistened past the four minute mark and he never says anything about Bachman (then adds in Perry out of the blue) except that they have been "blasphemous." He loves Obama and hates Bachman and Perry. Again––no thanks. He's just another Hollywood Obama-loving liberal hiding behind pseudo-intelligent "analysis" of religion and atheism, and using that to denigrate the right, while extolling the virtues of the left. I've listened to him on Opie and Anthony, and he's just annoying. He reminds me of Jesse Ventura without the conspiracy theories. He needs to shut the fuck up and go pull out a coin from behind someone's ear. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:24:26 AM EDT
[#45]
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No, Penn Jillette, you're not a "big thinker." Like every Atheist, you're small and simple-minded, refusing to believe in anything unless it's spelled out to you. You believe in the omnipotence of your human mind rather than in an outside omnipotence. Your religion is boring and based in pessimism. And you wear fingernail polish. Yawn. No, I'm an atheist because I'm educated and can form an educated opinion about extreme claims of the supernatural. It's through my education that I have decided that stone age stories and myths are in fact, in my opinion, not true.
You follow and believe in but one god of thousands that have existed in the history of man kind, yet I'm simple minded? Ironic....... So, you're saying that, in your opinion, anyone who ISN'T an Athiest is a moron? No, I know that's not true. Ok, just wanted to clarify..some Athiests (and not I said Some not All) have a tendency to automatically discount anyone who does have any type of faith as intellectually inferior because of that. Perosnally Believe (or not) what you want..i dont give a damn |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:25:52 AM EDT
[#46]
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If you think science can prove/disprove whether or not there is a God you are mistaken. This. It is a fool's errand in either case when it is tried. I certainly have no issues with one looking at the available info, searching their souls, and choosing to believe there is no supernatural anything. After all, I have challenges to my faith all the time, and I'm not always sure I win, so who am I to ridicule someone who has reached a different conclusion using the same means? But where my fucking fur starts to fly is when the asshole militant atheists start telling me that I need a "crutch", or that I'm too stupid to accept science, or that only science can prove anything, and that those who believe are somehow less intelligent than those who don't. I don't go around ridiculing those who have chosen not to believe, so I will be God-damned before I accept being ridiculed or accept having all references to God removed from the public discourse because some are so in non-need of a "crutch" that they need the government to come save their asses from being offended. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:27:16 AM EDT
[#47]
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. Penn specifically said that he thought Perry and Bachman were good people. I dont know what sort of bias you are working with though..... If he did it was after the 4:13 mark, as I listened to it again, specifically listening for any mention of "good" or a positive word of any type. Please tell me the point where he called them "good people." 
I'm not trying to nitpick him––the fact he is an Obama lover is what turns me off to the rest of his nonsense. I don't even go to church but the militant atheist preaching of "we're so much smarter than those stupid Christians" is a very tedious message indeed. If one is an atheist, fine. But please just go BE an atheist and STFU about it. They are the only ones worse than militant vegetarians.
Do you know how you can tell if someone is a vegetarian atheist? They will FUCKING TELL YOU, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND . . .
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:31:09 AM EDT
[#48]
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. Penn specifically said that he thought Perry and Bachman were good people. I dont know what sort of bias you are working with though..... If he did it was after the 4:13 mark, as I listened to it again, specifically listening for any mention of "good" or a positive word of any type. Please tell me the point where he called them "good people."
I'm not trying to nitpick him––the fact he is an Obama lover is what turns me off to the rest of his nonsense. I don't even go to church but the militant atheist preaching of "we're so much smarter than those stupid Christians" is a very tedious message indeed. If one is an atheist, fine. But please just go BE an atheist and STFU about it. They are the only ones worse than militant vegetarians.
Do you know how you can tell if someone is a vegetarian atheist? They will FUCKING TELL YOU, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND . . . is there a name for people that don't care if there is a god or isn't one? I guess I fall into the group of I don't care, I don't even think about it group. I get annoyed by listening to both sides. but that is like any other group out there, you will always have the loud mouth look at me and listen because I'm always right types. Its the same with religion, shooters, cooks, fly fishermen and every other group you can think of. |
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:32:34 AM EDT
[#49]
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. Penn specifically said that he thought Perry and Bachman were good people. I dont know what sort of bias you are working with though..... If he did it was after the 4:13 mark, as I listened to it again, specifically listening for any mention of "good" or a positive word of any type. Please tell me the point where he called them "good people."
I'm not trying to nitpick him––the fact he is an Obama lover is what turns me off to the rest of his nonsense. I don't even go to church but the militant atheist preaching of "we're so much smarter than those stupid Christians" is a very tedious message indeed. If one is an atheist, fine. But please just go BE an atheist and STFU about it. They are the only ones worse than militant vegetarians.
Do you know how you can tell if someone is a vegetarian atheist? They will FUCKING TELL YOU, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND . . . is there a name for people that don't care if there is a god or isn't one? I guess I fall into the group of I don't care, I don't even think about it group. I get annoyed by listening to both sides. but that is like any other group out there, you will always have the loud mouth look at me and listen because I'm always right types. Its the same with religion, shooters, cooks, fly fishermen and every other group you can think of. Says the dude who has a big trout he caught as his avatar.
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:46:35 AM EDT
[#50]
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. Penn specifically said that he thought Perry and Bachman were good people. I dont know what sort of bias you are working with though..... If he did it was after the 4:13 mark, as I listened to it again, specifically listening for any mention of "good" or a positive word of any type. Please tell me the point where he called them "good people."
I'm not trying to nitpick him––the fact he is an Obama lover is what turns me off to the rest of his nonsense. I don't even go to church but the militant atheist preaching of "we're so much smarter than those stupid Christians" is a very tedious message indeed. If one is an atheist, fine. But please just go BE an atheist and STFU about it. They are the only ones worse than militant vegetarians.
Do you know how you can tell if someone is a vegetarian atheist? They will FUCKING TELL YOU, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND . . . I will watch it again when I have a few minutes. I argue that Penn is not an 'obama lover' as any libertarian despises a statist. You can recognize that someone is intelligent without saying that you agree with their beliefs or methods. Obama is a smart guy, he surrounds himself with smart people, his beliefs are wrong but he believes in them because he believes (narcissisticly) that he is smart enough to make it (socialism) work this time around. I have watched a lot of interviews of Penn, I've read his books, I know how he 'claims' to feel about Christians and religion in general. His parents were deeply spiritual Christians and he loved and respected his parents more than anyone else. Like subnet pointed out above Penn doesn't think that someone who believes in god is retarded, he is best friends with Glen Beck. |
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