No deal.  You're changing what you said.



You bet a membership that the pawnshop intentionally fucked him out of his gun, and that if he pursued legal action, the gun would magically be located post haste.  

I said that he should negotiate with the pawnshop and he'll not only get the FMV of the gun, but probably even more. I also said if he followed up with court, he'd at least get FMV.  You're now trying to take my position.

Stand by your original position, and the bet is on.

Great!  This will be fun.

"get my gun back or im calling the BATFE"





 

Are you guys not even reading the posts?

Please, do tell.... what is the BATFE going to do?

I would gve them 3 options...

1) they get your gun back

2) they replace your gun with a NIB one

or if they refuse to do either

3) call the local PD and report the gun stolen right there in the shop on the spot.

They sold a gun that didn't belong to them.  The gun is stolen.

Walk in with a piece of paper.  On it, have the numbers of the local PD, county attorney, and state attorney.  Hell put the ATF on there as well.  

I dont see a big difference in what I posted.  I honestly believe that they will produce the gun.  There is a slight possibility that they dont still have the gun laying around or can put their hands on it.  Maybe 15%.  This is a difficult situation to gauge because Im forced to take second hand info as fact.  Do you honestly believe that they managed to lose his gun in a week?  My opinion is its absolutely intentional, and its either a friend or an employee who has laid claim to it.  

Neither does the pawnshop with selling a gun they own vs one they don't

The government has made that an impossibility for most people.

Tagging for outcome.

Curious why the ATF wouldn't be interested in a FFL who sold a gun that didn't belong to them.

Seems like if the pawn shop and OP entered in to an agreement with one another, that makes it civil, and not a LEO matter.  I think at most we'd make a simple report on it, let the investigators take a look at it and go from there, but the whole agreement between two people, contract type deal plays big here, makes it pretty much a civil matter.  

I'd be pretty pissed in this case.  I'd make damn sure I either get full money back for my weapon, or they give me what I wanted, pending they had something in stock.

Not a bad idea.

 

and when they can t produce one (or wont) you ask if they regulary sell guns without one...the ATF WOULD be interdasted in dat

I know a Pawn shop owner. I have seen him be forced by ATF to drive 100 miles one way to take remedial classes on how to fill out 4473's because he didn't write out the county name in full.
ATF can make his life hell.

If they want to. But ATF won't give a rats's ass about a shotgun sold out of pawn in error of a 4473 and Brady was done.  

As a pawnbroker, I see only a few ways this fuck-up could happen. In order of likelihood . . . .

1.) A chain of monumental screw-ups and failure to exercise due care resulted in the wrong item being sold or redeemed. Normally, enough checks are in place to prevent  this from happening. Perhaps, the M2 the shop is offering as a replacement is a gun that was past due and ready to be foreclosed (or maybe somebody came in to pick up the M2). The shop either gave the guy redeeming the M2 the OP's M1 or did their loan foreclosures and pulled the OP's M1 instead of the overdue M2. Nobody checked the serial number or matched the tag on the item to the pull list or when doing the redeem. Also, the salesman who  sold/redeemed the M2 went off of computer records when filling out the 4473 (using and E form, perhaps) instead of actually recording the serial number off the gun. If this is how it went down, the FFL log book will show the M2 already sold and the M1 still in the shop.

2.) The gun is still in the shop, but not in the place they think it is. In this case, the FFL A&D book would show no disposition.

3.) The OP didn't actually pawn his gun. He sold it. This does not appear to be the case, since the OP says he has a ticket that lists pawn terms. If this were the case, the shop should be able to produce a signed BUY ticket.

4.) The OP lost his pawn ticket. Somebody else found it, saw a way to get a nice shotgun on sale and went on down to the shop to claim his item. In this case, the shop should be able to produce a signed REDEEM ticket, with the ID of the person who picked it up.

5.) Somebody stole the gun from the shop –– either an employee or someone who gained access to the pawn store room. If this happened then the gun should still be listed in the store's possession on the FFL's A&D log book. In this case, the dealer should call the ATF to report a theft.

6.) Somebody inside the pawnshop deliberately bypassed the pawn software AND the FFL log book in order to take possession of the gun prior to the legally mandated foreclosure date.  A deliberate act seems highly unlikely. Pawnshops take this stuff seriously. Plus, there's no need. They see so much cool stuff come through all the time, they soon get jaded and the temptation goes away pretty fast. Besides, they don't need to short circuit the process or cheat. If they want something, they only have to wait for the item to foreclose. If such a deliberate act did occur, it would be theft, not a mistake. Time to call the cops.


So, yeah, it could have happened as a screw up. The OP could be wrong about some part of the story. The item could have been redeemed by someone else. It could be stolen. The LEAST likely explanation, by a long shot, is that the shop did this intentionally. I can almost guarantee that did not happen.

idk about you guys, but if I was the person that bought that shotgun, and the pawnshop gave the previous owner all of my info including SS# on the 4473 I would be PISSED... probably more pissed than if i had pawned a gun and they sold it.

 










 

I have a little pawn shop, about 5 years ago we lost a ring.  It was not a great ring, but it has value to the owner.  I told the clerk handling it to keep upping the offer till the customer was pleased, and it cost us a lot but it was a great lesson for all of us to be more careful.  We are in a town that is too small not to have all the customers leave happy and it was our fault.

Never lost a gun though.  

Been a while since the OP  checked in with an update.
What say you OP?

I'll do it. It is obligatory in threads like this after all.
DAY 1





 

You won't find an attorney on the planet that will work on contingency for someone with no money over a $900 claim.

What else is he going to sue for? Punitive damages? Pain and suffering? He'll get laughed out of every lawyer's office in town.

If properly logged in and out of the pawn shop, the ATF will do nothing. It won't be their jurisdiction.

They only take contingency cases when they think there is a chance of an actual pay-out. On this case, they'd be losing money after only two hours.

They would care if a gun that is logged as being out, is still there, while a gun that is logged as being there no longer is. Which I suspect is the case. The pawn shop likely grabbed the wrong gun off the rack when they were doing a redeem or when pulling foreclosed loans. But even in that case, it would be a clerical error, not a criminal offense.

I am really confused by this.  I find it hard to believe that if a FFL holder broke into somebody's house, stole a gun, and then sold it that the ATF wouldn't care so long as he did the paperwork.

Well the IRS doesn't care how you earned your money as long as you report it.

I'm just sayin'.

Not if it's technically stolen, which it is.

I bet hes trying to find a locksmith who can open the box.

You are comparing apples to oranges.



When you pawn a firearm the ATF sees it as giving possession of the firearm to the pawn shop(FFL). That is why when you redeem a firearm pawn you must do a 4473, NICS, because the FFL is transferring the firearm back into the customer's possession.



What happened to the OP was a breach of contract. He entered a contract with the pawn shop. They give him $500 dollars and he gives them the shotgun to hold as collateral. To get the gun back the OP pays back the $500 plus interest in X amount of days or the shotgun will be sold to cover the shop's cost. The shop sold the gun before X days, and breached the contract. Civil matter.



Now here in town there is one known pawn shop that is shady as hell and everyone knows it. Any chance the police get to pressure the store, they take. If this had happened at that store the police would have loved to get involved. At any of the other stores here, I would say there is a 99.8% that the police would refer to it as a civil matter and not act. A lot of how the local LEOs are going to react will depend on the past history of the pawn shop.



 

Technically, it's not stolen.  He willingly gave the pawnshop his gun.  They want to make it right with them when they fucked up.  This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

I never thought about that angle.  Thank you.

Of course your example is not even close to the case at hand.

If the gun came into the pawn shop and was logged as Acquired, and left the pawn shop and was logged as Disposed, and the 4473 was properly executed, then the ATF would not have a beef. Whether the gun was misapproptiated by the pawn shop and sold to someone by mistake, or was bought by a pawn shop employee, doesn't concern the ATF. It becomes a matter of making the OP "whole" in his property.

Your definition of stolen is incorrect.

Why do you put your SSN on a 4473?

Completely irrelevant. One is a billing mistake which could have occurred no matter what business you are dealing with. The other is descending into the world of 'payday loans' and pawnshops and being surprised that the experience wasn't a fun one.



We all love our guns, but it shouldn't be at the expense of our financial well-being. OP should take the M2. Then, OP should sell the M2 and start a savings account, and maybe thank the pawnshop for the wake-up call.

I personally don't but a lot of people do since there is a box for it. they figure hey govt document, its not like this is going to sit around for just anyone to look at right??





 

Here in Florida pawnshops and gun stores must hang onto a bought gun for thirty days before they can sell it..

You Op Legally still own that firearm (at least that is the way it is here in Florida) so you can Legally report it as stolen..

You should get exactly what you want, Or Report them to the ATF... If it was me I would do both.

Just remember that it is still your gun and that by selling it they first broke the Pawn laws, and made the buyer a target as he has a stolen gun in his possession.... Just bring that up will get you what you want...

You have been given some good advice over these six pages but you have also been given a world of bad advice and incorrect information.



If you assume that the pawn shop made a mistake by selling your firearm and that it was not an intentional act, you are limited in what recourse you have.  They should first, try to recover your firearm and return it to you.  That should be possible if the buyer would cooperate.  If that is not possible, they should then offer you a "like item" which should be fairly easy to do.  Another M1 or another firearm that you deem appropriate.  If neither of those two possibilities play out, then your next course of action would be a complaint to the Texas Office of Consumer Credit Commission.  They regulate this and every pawn shop in Texas and they will see that you are compensated in a fair manner.  No reason to involve the devils at BATFE or the local law enforcement agency.






 

Tag

But in either case the weapon is not theirs to sell.

Tagged, gotta see the outcome of this.....

Update in the OP.

Gotcha!

I never put it on there, either.  It says "optional"

100% wrong advice.  Read 672.403 of the Florida statutes to find out why.

you honestly think they sold it to someone??  someone at the store wants it for themselves. dont give in to this shit.


 

Take the m2 and enough money from them to get a metal trigger guard and cerakote put on it since it's all nicked up.


 

Um, no. In FL it is a contractual (civil) dispute not a criminal act.