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Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:51:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Pat Tillman died serving his nation. For which I will FOREVER be grateful.

Leave it at that.




Damn straight.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:03:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Isn't the fact the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened?


1) When you are killed by it, it 'aint friendly.

2) If friendlies were firing you can almost be rest assured the enemy was close by. I understand the left looks down upon those of us who serve or have served and think anyone with a firearm is not competent to walk and chew gum at the same time. These guys are pros, they don't spray and pray, there is more not being told.

3) Tillman was a hero not because he died but because he served. That is the part the left does not understand.

The recent media attacks on the military to get to GWB do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. The people who read the crap they put out have thier kids in country, every messed up story they put out and say oppps about puts thier readerships kids in peril.




This is not a Left or Right discussion nor does it question Tillman's service or whether he's a hero. It purely about the fact the Govt deceived people about how Tillman died. It's very clear that Tillman was a hero because of how he lived his life and the choices and sacrifices he made.

I'm as far-right as they come, but I'm not brainwashed like some of you guys that think that questioning Govt deception or the military makes me a member of the Loonie-Left.



One question how did the Government deceived people about how Tillman died and when?

The US Army never denied Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident… so how did they lie?

You are simply buying the half-truths.




Here's the original story when they announced they were giving him the Silver Star. Do you see anything in there about Tillman being killed accidently by his own men? Don't you think they'd have the whole story before they award a Silver Star to a soldier?



Tillman posthumously awarded prestigious Silver Star
By Billy House, The Arizona Republic
WASHINGTON — Pat Tillman died while leading a team of Army Rangers up a remote southeastern Afghan hill to knock out enemy fire that had pinned down other American soldiers, the Army said Friday.

The Army released details of the former Arizona Cardinals football player's death as it announced that he was posthumously awarded the Silver Star, its third-highest award for combat valor.

Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

Walter Sokalski, a spokesman for Army Special Forces Command, said the Silver Star will be presented to Tillman's family Monday during a public memorial service in San Jose, Calif.

"It will be presented by members of the 75th Ranger Regiment, by soldiers that knew him," Sokalski said. Tillman was in the 2nd battalion of the regiment, based out of Fort Lewis, Wash.

Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million contract extension offered by the Cardinals to join the Army in 2002, this week also was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist.

Pentagon officials had previously given only sketchy details of the fighting 26 miles southwest of Khost, saying the ambush occurred about 7:30 p.m. local time near the village of Sperah, and that two other soldiers were wounded and an Afghan Militia Force soldier was killed.

Tillman's platoon was in the region as part of a spring offensive called Operation Mountain Storm, aimed at rooting out hard-line Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters.

But according to the details provided Friday, Tillman led his Ranger team that day "without regard for his own safety," and was shot and killed heroically trying to protect his comrades.

Tillman's platoon had been split into two sections during a patrol.

Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon's front when the rear section was hit with enemy fire. Because of the rough terrain, "the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions," according the Army's description of the events.

Although his group was safely out of that danger area, the Army said Tillman ordered his team members to get out of their vehicles and maneuver up a hill near the enemy's location. As they got to the crest of the hill, "Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces ... on the dominating high ground." It was during this effort, as he provided suppressive fire, that Tillman was shot and killed, the Army said.

Sokalski said he had no information Friday on whether any of the enemy attackers have been identified or captured.

During a briefing Friday with Pentagon reporters, Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, which includes operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, said he was able to talk Thursday with 1st Lt. Dave Hutman, Tillman's platoon leader.

"I asked him about Pat Tillman," Abizaid told the reporters. "He said, 'Pat Tillman was a great Ranger and a great soldier, and what more can I say about him?'"

"When he was talking to me, he was still nursing a large number of wounds that he sustained in that firefight where Pat Tillman lost his life," Abizaid said.

Link

In this article, the military claims he was killed by enemy fire


Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:17:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 2:17:45 PM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Here's a MOH citation of Pete Connor. Pete Connor was in the same reserve unit that I am in now. He volunteered for Vietnem, serving with 3rd Marines (with who I also served).
From what I've been told, he got the MOH, because he dropped his grenade and then dove on it to save his guys.
Here's how it reads:

The President of the United States takes pride in presenting the MEDAL OF HONOR posthumously to
STAFF SERGEANT PETER S. CONNOR
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS


for service as set forth in the following


CITATION:


For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action against enemy Viet Cong forces at the risk of his life above and beyond the call duty while serving as Platoon Sergeant of the Third Platoon, Company F, Second Battalion, Third Marines, Third Marine Division (Reinforced), Fleet Marine Force, in Quang Ngai Province, Republic of Vietnam on 25 February 1966. Leading his platoon on a search and destroy operation in an area made particularly hazardous by extensive cave and tunnel complexes, Sergeant Connor maneuvered his unit aggressively forward under intermittent enemy small-arms fire. Exhibiting particular alertness and keen observation, he spotted an enemy spider hole emplacement approximately fifteen meters to his front. He pulled the pin from a fragmentation grenade intending to charge the hole boldly and drop the missile into its depths. Upon pulling the pin he realized that the firing mechanism was faulty, and that even as he held the safety device firmly in place, the fuze charge was already activated. With only precious seconds to decide, he further realized that he could not cover the distance to the small opening of the spider hole in sufficient time, and that to hurl the deadly bomb in any direction would result in death or injury to some of his comrades tactically deployed near him. Manifesting extraordinary gallantry and with utter disregard for his personal safety, he chose to hold the grenade against his own body in order to absorb the terrific explosion and spare his comrades. His act of extreme valor and selflessness in the face of virtually certain death, although leaving him mortally wounded, spared many of his fellow Marines from death or injury. His gallant action in giving his life in the cause of freedom reflects the highest credit upon the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.


Now I realize that you would prefer that the citation belittle his actions, and paint either he or the Corps in a lesser light.
Sorry.
Believe it or not, the Army and the Corps try to paint their fallen in the light which makes them look best.
We're like that.

You obviously have a pre-existing agenda, and think that somehow the Army looking bad helps your position.
That's on you.
Keep it to yourself.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:23:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Isn't the fact the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened?


1) When you are killed by it, it 'aint friendly.

2) If friendlies were firing you can almost be rest assured the enemy was close by. I understand the left looks down upon those of us who serve or have served and think anyone with a firearm is not competent to walk and chew gum at the same time. These guys are pros, they don't spray and pray, there is more not being told.

3) Tillman was a hero not because he died but because he served. That is the part the left does not understand.

The recent media attacks on the military to get to GWB do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. The people who read the crap they put out have thier kids in country, every messed up story they put out and say oppps about puts thier readerships kids in peril.




This is not a Left or Right discussion nor does it question Tillman's service or whether he's a hero. It purely about the fact the Govt deceived people about how Tillman died. It's very clear that Tillman was a hero because of how he lived his life and the choices and sacrifices he made.

I'm as far-right as they come, but I'm not brainwashed like some of you guys that think that questioning Govt deception or the military makes me a member of the Loonie-Left.



One question how did the Government deceived people about how Tillman died and when?

The US Army never denied Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident… so how did they lie?

You are simply buying the half-truths.




Here's the original story when they announced they were giving him the Silver Star. Do you see anything in there about Tillman being killed accidently by his own men? Don't you think they'd have the whole story before they award a Silver Star to a soldier?



Tillman posthumously awarded prestigious Silver Star
By Billy House, The Arizona Republic
WASHINGTON — Pat Tillman died while leading a team of Army Rangers up a remote southeastern Afghan hill to knock out enemy fire that had pinned down other American soldiers, the Army said Friday.

The Army released details of the former Arizona Cardinals football player's death as it announced that he was posthumously awarded the Silver Star, its third-highest award for combat valor.

Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

Walter Sokalski, a spokesman for Army Special Forces Command, said the Silver Star will be presented to Tillman's family Monday during a public memorial service in San Jose, Calif.

"It will be presented by members of the 75th Ranger Regiment, by soldiers that knew him," Sokalski said. Tillman was in the 2nd battalion of the regiment, based out of Fort Lewis, Wash.

Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million contract extension offered by the Cardinals to join the Army in 2002, this week also was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist.

Pentagon officials had previously given only sketchy details of the fighting 26 miles southwest of Khost, saying the ambush occurred about 7:30 p.m. local time near the village of Sperah, and that two other soldiers were wounded and an Afghan Militia Force soldier was killed.

Tillman's platoon was in the region as part of a spring offensive called Operation Mountain Storm, aimed at rooting out hard-line Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters.

But according to the details provided Friday, Tillman led his Ranger team that day "without regard for his own safety," and was shot and killed heroically trying to protect his comrades.

Tillman's platoon had been split into two sections during a patrol.

Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon's front when the rear section was hit with enemy fire. Because of the rough terrain, "the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions," according the Army's description of the events.

Although his group was safely out of that danger area, the Army said Tillman ordered his team members to get out of their vehicles and maneuver up a hill near the enemy's location. As they got to the crest of the hill, "Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces ... on the dominating high ground." It was during this effort, as he provided suppressive fire, that Tillman was shot and killed, the Army said.

Sokalski said he had no information Friday on whether any of the enemy attackers have been identified or captured.

During a briefing Friday with Pentagon reporters, Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, which includes operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, said he was able to talk Thursday with 1st Lt. Dave Hutman, Tillman's platoon leader.

"I asked him about Pat Tillman," Abizaid told the reporters. "He said, 'Pat Tillman was a great Ranger and a great soldier, and what more can I say about him?'"

"When he was talking to me, he was still nursing a large number of wounds that he sustained in that firefight where Pat Tillman lost his life," Abizaid said.

Link

In this article, the military claims he was killed by enemy fire





Where does it say that he was killed by enemy fire?

The citation was for his heroic actions BEFORE he was shot.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:38:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:43:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 2:47:23 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

In this article, the military claims he was killed by enemy fire





Where does it say that he was killed by enemy fire?

The citation was for his heroic actions BEFORE he was shot.



You are correct… HE IS WRONG, The article does not say what he claims it does.

Some obliviously want to believe what they want to believe, fact will not get in their way.


As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed.

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 3:27:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Belloc:

Originally Posted By guardian855:
Remember the Sullivan brothers? The five brothers who died while serving on the USS Juneau?

Due to a torpedo hit, the ship's magazines exploded and the ship sank very rapidly. Due to the large explosion and the way the ship sank in minutes, the ships nearby radioed a B17 bomber the coordinates where the ship went down and left the area without searching for survivors. 115 of the crew, inculding at least one of the Sullivan brothers survived the sinking and were on rafts. A day or so later, a B17 sighted the rafts and sent a report to higher HQ. Due to a clerical error, the report wasn't seen for several days so a lot of those survivors died waiting for rescue, inculding the survivng Sullivan brothers.

What did the parents do in this case? They went on tv and starred in commercials selling war bonds for the war effort! They basicially told the American people don't let my boys' sacrifice be in vain.

It's a different world we live in today.

www.state.nh.us/ww2/images/ww33.jpg




You must admit that it is a little different, the Juneau was not torpedoed by another U.S. warship.



No, there is no different…

Death by an aiming error, death by a clerical error, death by enemy fire… dead is dead. All this second guessing and re-inventing what happen will not change one thing

The US Army does not give graphic explanations of how soldiers died when they make death notification because they don’t know the facts when notifications are done.

There is no way the US Army could know definitively know what happen in this case until they had finished an autopsy and investigation. And then the family would be notified… As happen in this case. The US Army never denied Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident; they never did, so how did they lie?

Pat Tillman’s father is asking for special treatment, treatment no other solider would get.

What Tillman’s father is claiming occurred simply did not occur in the manner he puts forward.



Are you seriously telling me that there would not in the least bit, not in the smallest of measurable amounts, make the slightest bit of a difference to the average parents, between having a son killed in combat by hostile forces and one being cut down by his own men?
And I mean emotionally and psychologically.
If you answer "no", then I simply do not understand. If you say, "yes, I can in fact certainly understand how their grief could be affected by that extra piece of sadness and tragedy", then perhaps those of use who do not agree with what they are doing can simply state that, acknowledge their families sacrifice for our nation, and leave it at that without some of the assailing against them going on.
How many here have lost a child to war? I don't imagine that I could even begin to understand such grief.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 3:27:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 3:28:59 PM EDT by TacticalStrat]

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

In this article, the military claims he was killed by enemy fire





Where does it say that he was killed by enemy fire?

The citation was for his heroic actions BEFORE he was shot.



You are correct… HE IS WRONG, The article does not say what he claims it does.

Some obliviously want to believe what they want to believe, fact will not get in their way.


As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed.






"After coming under fire, Tillman’s patrol got out of their vehicles and gave chase, moving toward the spot of the ambush. Beevers said the fighting was “sustained” and lasted 15-20 minutes. "

U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Matthew Beevers said Saturday that Tillman was killed Thursday night in a firefight at about 7 p.m. on a road near Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost.


"Beevers said Tillman was killed by enemy fire, but he had no information about what type of weapons were involved in the assault, or whether he died instantly."



Link


Link Posted: 5/23/2005 3:39:53 PM EDT
Again, I am in no way diminishing anything Tillman did to serve his country. He was a hero! I am only trying to show how the military deceived people.

Regarding the Silver Star: (from article)

Prior to Saturday, the Army's most complete account of Tillman's death came in his Silver Star citation, which said he was killed after his platoon split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

When the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, the Army said Tillman ordered his team to return.

"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the citation said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."

But an unidentified Afghan military official told the Associated Press Saturday Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion after a land mine explosion and that no enemy forces were present. The official said he got his information from an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillman's.

The Pentagon had no comment on the official's claim.

Link

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 3:49:46 PM EDT
And then you have the report that Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned after he was killed....

Link


Report: Evidence Destroyed After Tillman's death


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new Army report on the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year concluded that his uniform and body armor were burned a day after he was killed -- and before investigators had determined he was shot by his fellow soldiers.

The yet-to-be-released investigation results, first reported by the Washington Post, concludes that the burning of the clothes and armor amounted to destruction of evidence.

Initial reports of Tillman's death on April 22, 2004, said he was shot by Taliban forces during an ambush. An investigation would later reveal that fellow soldiers shot Tillman, thinking he was part of an enemy force firing at them.

The Washington Post reported Wednesday that top U.S. commanders, including Gen. John P. Abizaid of U.S. Central Command, were told that Tillman's death occurred by fratricide days before a nationally televised memorial service was held for him.

Nonetheless, Tillman's family was not notified of that until May 29, 2004, when the first investigation was completed. That was nearly four weeks after the service.

The new report, by Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, was done at the behest of Tillman's family members, who wanted to know why his uniform was burned, and why they were not immediately told he might have been killed by fellow soldiers.

At the time, Tillman's blood-covered uniform and armor were said to have been destroyed because they were considered a biohazard.

Yet the Jones report contains sworn statements from soldiers involved in the incident who said they burned the items because they had taken pictures of the scene, walked around, and knew how Tillman had been killed.

In the new report, soldiers reasoned "they knew in their heart of hearts what had happened, and we were not going to lie about it. So we weren't thinking about proof or anything."

Army investigators now say his clothes should have been preserved as evidence.

Army officials said the Jones report concludes that the Tillman family should have been told at once that "friendly fire" was suspected. The report, however, found no official intent by military commanders to hide the truth.

Tillman gave up a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to become an Army Ranger after the attacks of September 11, 2001. He was posthumously awarded a Silver Star.


Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:00:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 4:15:25 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Again, I am in no way diminishing anything Tillman did to serve his country. He was a hero! I am only trying to show how the military deceived people.

Regarding the Silver Star: (from article)

Prior to Saturday, the Army's most complete account of Tillman's death came in his Silver Star citation, which said he was killed after his platoon split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

When the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, the Army said Tillman ordered his team to return.

"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the citation said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."

But an unidentified Afghan military official told the Associated Press Saturday Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion after a land mine explosion and that no enemy forces were present. The official said he got his information from an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillman's.

The Pentagon had no comment on the official's claim.

Link





You are being intentional misleading… grasping at straws

Your own posting proving you are wrong:

The first in the three is the announcement of the death when no one knew the facts…

The second…


The Pentagon had no comment on the official's claim.


The third…


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new Army report on the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year concluded that his uniform and body armor were burned a day after he was killed -- and before investigators had determined he was shot by his fellow soldiers.


Well duh... How possibly could anyone but soldiers who burned the equipment know this... before the investigation.


Nonetheless, Tillman's family was not notified of that until May 29, 2004, when the first investigation was completed. That was nearly four weeks after the service.


This is standard Army procedure… the first investigation was completed as was stated above this is standard procedure. Showing those above knew what they were taking about...

You are being intentional misleading, you have showed nothing that shows the US Army lied. You have shown the US Army did a complete investigation to find out what happpen and then hid nothing...
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:14:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Again, I am in no way diminishing anything Tillman did to serve his country. He was a hero! I am only trying to show how the military deceived people.

Regarding the Silver Star: (from article)

Prior to Saturday, the Army's most complete account of Tillman's death came in his Silver Star citation, which said he was killed after his platoon split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

When the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, the Army said Tillman ordered his team to return.

"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the citation said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."

But an unidentified Afghan military official told the Associated Press Saturday Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion after a land mine explosion and that no enemy forces were present. The official said he got his information from an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillman's.

The Pentagon had no comment on the official's claim.

Link




Again you are wrong… grasping at straws

Your own posting proving you are wrong:

The first in the three is the announcement of the death when no one knew the facts…

The second…


The Pentagon had no comment on the official's claim.


The third…


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new Army report on the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year concluded that his uniform and body armor were burned a day after he was killed -- and before investigators had determined he was shot by his fellow soldiers.



Nonetheless, Tillman's family was not notified of that until May 29, 2004, when the first investigation was completed. That was nearly four weeks after the service.


This is standard procedure… and as was stated above.

You are being intentional misleading you have showed nothing that shows the US Army lied. You have shown the US Army did a through investigation... nothing else.




The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:21:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 4:26:09 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:


The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.



The evidence…

THE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS ANY SUCH THING.

There is grasping at straws, making unprovable assumptions, and illogical leeps because they fit your pre conceived notions.

You have concocted a conspiracy and you will not let fact or truth get in the way.

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:24:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:25:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:


The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.



The evidence…

THE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS ANY SUCH THING.

There is grasping at straws, making unprovable assumptions, and illogical leeps because they fit your pre conceived notions.

You have concocted a conspiracy and you will not let fact or truth get in the way.





You should ask yourself this question: Why does the Tillman family feel deceived? They have to be more familiar with how the Army presented it more than anyone. They feel decieved.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:28:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 4:31:34 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:


The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.



The evidence…

THE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS ANY SUCH THING.

There is grasping at straws, making unprovable assumptions, and illogical leeps because they fit your pre conceived notions.

You have concocted a conspiracy and you will not let fact or truth get in the way.





You should ask yourself this question: Why does the Tillman family feel deceived? They have to be more familiar with how the Army presented it more than anyone. They feel decieved.



What anybody feels is irrelevant to the facts of what really happen, I am interested in facts not emotion,

Your own illogical statement above contradicts your whole premise.


The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened


Which is the Army did known or the Army lied… which is it.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:28:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:


The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.



The evidence…

THE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS ANY SUCH THING.

There is grasping at straws, making unprovable assumptions, and illogical leeps because they fit your pre conceived notions.

You have concocted a conspiracy and you will not let fact or truth get in the way.





You should ask yourself this question: Why does the Tillman family feel deceived? They have to be more familiar with how the Army presented it more than anyone. They feel decieved.



Gee, the media would never lie nor would they twist anything.

Do you know that Pat Tillman's family actually feels that way. You have linked to nothing official, just a bunch of media blathering, which doesn't even support your claim that the Army said he was killed by enemy fire.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:31:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:32:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:


The evidence points to the fact that everyone involved from the soldiers with Tillman to the ARMY PR machine, tried to cover-up that Tillman was killed by US troops. I am speculating that the events transpired as follows:

1. Troops with Tillman tried to cover-up the fact that they killed him in a tragic accident.
2. INITIAL reports were released that Tillman was killed in a heroic assault.
3. The military PR machine did not realize what actually happened and quickly sought a Silver Star medal for Tillman based on the inaccurate report given to them by the troops that were with Tillman when he died.
4. Evidence began to surface that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.
5. The Military realized that they could not contain the story and came clean.



The evidence…

THE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS ANY SUCH THING.

There is grasping at straws, making unprovable assumptions, and illogical leeps because they fit your pre conceived notions.

You have concocted a conspiracy and you will not let fact or truth get in the way.





You should ask yourself this question: Why does the Tillman family feel deceived? They have to be more familiar with how the Army presented it more than anyone. They feel decieved.



Gee, the media would never lie nor would they twist anything.

Do you know that Pat Tillman's family actually feels that way. You have linked to nothing official, just a bunch of media blathering, which doesn't even support your claim that the Army said he was killed by enemy fire.




Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link


Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army By Josh White, Washington Post Staff Writer
Mon May 23, 1:00 AM ET



Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.



More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story.


"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."


Tillman, a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.


Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.


In separate interviews in their home town of San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.


The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.


That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.


Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.


Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given to the family. He decried what he calls a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.


"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Patrick Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."


Army spokesmen maintain that the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information.


Army officials said Friday that the Army "reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war." Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty.


"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."


Brooks said the Army has "actively and directly" informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family "was as well informed as they could be."


Mary Tillman keeps her son's wedding album in the living room of the house where he grew up, and his Arizona State University football jersey, still dirty from the 1997 Rose Bowl game, hangs in a nearby closet. With each new version of events, her mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.


"It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way," she said. "You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest."


Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.

"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.

"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:32:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
And then you have the report that Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned after he was killed....






I think one of the main reasons they burned his body armor and uniform was they didn't want it to show up in an Ebay listing or somebody stealing it for the "paparizzi" factor. Could you imagine some punk trying to sell "the bloody uniform of Pat Tillman" to some asshat reporter?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:37:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link




Usual straw man tactic… if you cannot address specific arguments so you start dancing…

How the Tillman family feels has nothing to do with the facts of what happen … it is emotion not argument.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:40:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:41:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Seriously, hasn't everyone learned that the Leftist Washington Post is simply NOT to be trusted on everything that it writes.

Not that I doubt that Tillman's parents aren't shaken by everything that has transpired, but they have been on a pretty emotional coaster ride about what happened wioth their son.

And some folks are making use of this against the Bush Administration.

And, ultimately, against our fighting men.

Which is all they really care about.

Eric The(Realistic)Hun



BINGO

We have a winner
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:42:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Seriously, hasn't everyone learned that the Leftist Washington Post is simply NOT to be trusted on everything that it writes.

Not that I doubt that Tillman's parents aren't shaken by everything that has transpired, but they have been on a pretty emotional coaster ride about what happened wioth their son.

And some folks are making use of this against the Bush Administration.

And, ultimately, against our fighting men.

Which is all they really care about.

Eric The(Realistic)Hun




I agree that the Libs will use this against Bush and I hate it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be a mindless brainwashed ding-dong that can only talk about things that are positive for the Bush administration.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:52:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link




Usual straw man tactic… if you cannot address specific arguments so you start dancing…

How the Tillman family feels has nothing to do with the facts of what happen … it is emotion not argument.




Did you even read this article? Tillman's family is basing their "emotion" on how the Army handled the situation and the information that the Army conveyed to them.



Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army By Josh White, Washington Post Staff Writer
Mon May 23, 1:00 AM ET



Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.



More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story.


"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."


Tillman, a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.


Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.


In separate interviews in their home town of San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.


The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.


That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.


Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.


Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given to the family. He decried what he calls a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.


"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Patrick Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."


Army spokesmen maintain that the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information.


Army officials said Friday that the Army "reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war." Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty.


"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."


Brooks said the Army has "actively and directly" informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family "was as well informed as they could be."


Mary Tillman keeps her son's wedding album in the living room of the house where he grew up, and his Arizona State University football jersey, still dirty from the 1997 Rose Bowl game, hangs in a nearby closet. With each new version of events, her mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.


"It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way," she said. "You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest."


Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.

"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.

"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:55:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:59:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

I agree that the Libs will use this against Bush and I hate it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be a mindless brainwashed ding-dong that can only talk about things that are positive for the Bush administration.

You don't have to be a 'brain-washed' anything....just keep your wits about you and think this all through!

Calmly and reasonably!

You are going along with thinking that there was a conspiracy that went from every man in Tillman's unit right up to the President of the United States!

Please....how likely is that?

Eric The(SlowAndSteady)Hun





Yeah riiiiight tin-foil-hat-boy. Provide my quote where I said the President was involved.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:00:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link




Usual straw man tactic… if you cannot address specific arguments so you start dancing…

How the Tillman family feels has nothing to do with the facts of what happen … it is emotion not argument.




Did you even read this article? Tillman's family is basing their "emotion" on how the Army handled the situation and the information that the Army conveyed to them.




Can you not read… If you could you would know this thread STARTED with a link to the same story you have now needlessly posted twice.

What the family feels happen does not concur with what did happen… I am sorry for the father… he is still wrong and wanted special treatment.

Please stop posting the same stuff over and over just because you cannot defend your point with argument.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:02:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link




Usual straw man tactic… if you cannot address specific arguments so you start dancing…

How the Tillman family feels has nothing to do with the facts of what happen … it is emotion not argument.




Did you even read this article? Tillman's family is basing their "emotion" on how the Army handled the situation and the information that the Army conveyed to them.




Can you not read… If you could you would know this thread STARTED with a link to the same story you have now needlessly posted twice.

What the family feels happen does not concur with what did happen… I am sorry for the father… he is still wrong and wanted special treatment.

Please stop posting the same stuff over and over just because you cannot defend your point with argument.




The only argument you've presented is that it's a Left-Wing media conspiracy. LOL!!!
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:08:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 5:10:54 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Let's hope you're not a detective, because the ORIGINAL POST in this thread is about how deceived the Tillman family feels.

Link




Usual straw man tactic… if you cannot address specific arguments so you start dancing…

How the Tillman family feels has nothing to do with the facts of what happen … it is emotion not argument.




Did you even read this article? Tillman's family is basing their "emotion" on how the Army handled the situation and the information that the Army conveyed to them.




Can you not read… If you could you would know this thread STARTED with a link to the same story you have now needlessly posted twice.

What the family feels happen does not concur with what did happen… I am sorry for the father… he is still wrong and wanted special treatment.

Please stop posting the same stuff over and over just because you cannot defend your point with argument.




The only argument you've presented is that it's a Left-Wing media conspiracy. LOL!!!



Well you have just proven you cannot read... you obvious did not read my posts.

Momma told me not to argue with a fool because people might not be able to tell the difference. I am gone.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:10:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
And then you have the report that Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned after he was killed....






I think one of the main reasons they burned his body armor and uniform was they didn't want it to show up in an Ebay listing or somebody stealing it for the "paparizzi" factor. Could you imagine some punk trying to sell "the bloody uniform of Pat Tillman" to some asshat reporter?




Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:18:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:26:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.

Oh sure. It's the Bush Administration which orders the immediate burning of Tillman's uniform and body armor to keep it from being used to undermine its policies in Afghanistan...not Iraq....but its policies in Afghanistan...which very few Americans...or even non-Americans oppose!

Yeah, that makes excellent sense!



Get a grip, Sir!

Eric The(Un-fricking-believable)Hun




Again, you need to get off the crack-pipe. I have not mentioned Bush involvement once. Just provide my quote where I said this. Dispense with your gas-bag tactics and just provide my quote.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:27:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
And then you have the report that Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned after he was killed....






I think one of the main reasons they burned his body armor and uniform was they didn't want it to show up in an Ebay listing or somebody stealing it for the "paparizzi" factor. Could you imagine some punk trying to sell "the bloody uniform of Pat Tillman" to some asshat reporter?




Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.



It didn't matter if it was friendly fire, enemy fire or even a helicopter accident. Pat Tillman was/is the most famous soldier in Afghanistan, the equipment he was wearing could have been potentially valuable to someone without morals or scruples who could have stolen it and sold it.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:32:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:39:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 5:41:15 PM EDT by TacticalStrat]

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
And then you have the report that Tillman's body armor and uniform were burned after he was killed....






I think one of the main reasons they burned his body armor and uniform was they didn't want it to show up in an Ebay listing or somebody stealing it for the "paparizzi" factor. Could you imagine some punk trying to sell "the bloody uniform of Pat Tillman" to some asshat reporter?




Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.



It didn't matter if it was friendly fire, enemy fire or even a helicopter accident. Pat Tillman was/is the most famous soldier in Afghanistan, the equipment he was wearing could have been potentially valuable to someone without morals or scruples who could have stolen it and sold it.




Regardless of how "valuable" Tillman's uniform was, is it military SOP to burn the uniform and body armor of a soldier that was just killed by friendly fire? I very much doubt it, since certainly everyone involved knew an investigation would take place. BTW, his unit claimed they burned it because it was a "bio-hazard" due to the blood. Am I to believe that every soldier that is killed in combat has his equipment burned because it's a bio-hazard, or do they only burn hi-profile soldier's uniforms that are killed by freindly fire?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:40:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Again, you need to get off the crack-pipe.

<cough><wheeze><cough>

What? I can't hear you...what did you say?

I have not mentioned Bush involvement once.

No, the Tillmans and the Washington Post did...and you just parroted it!

That's all.

Just provide my quote where I said this.

You presented the quotes and supported their views....tsk, tsk, tsk!

Dispense with your gas-bag tactics and just provide my quote.

You provided all the quotes necessary!

Look at my posts above where I asked WHY would the Bush 'Administration' make any coverup of this incident.

Nope, you were carrying the water for the Leftists on this....

Eric The(LoveYa'Man)Hun




So you can't provide my quote. You lose.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:45:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:47:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.


Oh sure. It's the Bush Administration which orders the immediate burning of Tillman's uniform and body armor to keep it from being used to undermine its policies in Afghanistan...not Iraq....but its policies in Afghanistan...which very few Americans...or even non-Americans oppose!
Yeah, that makes excellent sense!



Get a grip, Sir!

Eric The(Un-fricking-believable)Hun





Link Posted: 5/23/2005 6:24:59 PM EDT
I wanted to avoid this thread after my earlier post, but couldn't help it. After serving over six years on active duty, I am amazed at how organized the conspiracy theorists ASSume the military and civilian command structure to be. If it was half as organzied as they think...woah!
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:46:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 10:04:05 PM EDT by W_smith]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By W_smith:
your focusing on my 2 verbal barbs at calling you silly names, none of the other stuff



Because I cannot follow your "logic" and am weary of your insults.




garandman, I've been reading some of your 19k+ posts here for the last 4+ years

when did you get so thin skinned ?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 10:02:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 10:03:30 PM EDT by W_smith]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By W_smith:
your focusing on my 2 verbal barbs at calling you silly names, none of the other stuff



Because I cannot follow your "logic" and am weary of your insults.




Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
...the US Army’s job to win wars not to bare its soul and beat its breast about things than cannot be changed.
Quite frankly the Army should have never revealed the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire, nobody needed to know. That fact should have been buried for some historian to discover in 25 years.
Sometimes I believe we live in a world of children, do many of you here believe you can fight a war in the manner we have. If World War II had been publicized in this manner we would have quit in 1942.
Pat Tillman died doing his duty… that is and was enough.



VERY well said.
We MUST remember the Army is NOT the US gov't, and have NO duty of disclosure. Their ONLY duty is to win wars.

As such, they should have kept quiet about this, instead of punching themselves in the eye about it.
As was said, Pat Tillman died doing his duty… that is and was enough.



explain your logic that the U.S. Army is not the U.S. gov't


I've listed many reasons that seem to indicate otherwise

Originally Posted By W_smith:
How is the Army (all of DOD for that matter) funded ?

Who writes the IOU's for that $400-500 billion spent by DOD every year the last 4yrs ??
(and the $280-320 billion the previous decade)

Is the Army part of the Department of Defense ?

Is DOD part of the U.S. government ?

Is the Secretary of Defense a cabinet level appointment of the executive branch that must
be approved by the U.S. Senate ?

Does the SecDef answer to the elected President of the USA ?

Do the joint Chiefs of Staff answer to Congress & the Executive branch ?

Is the Pesident the ELECTED leader of the executive branch; the commander in chief
of all U.S. armed forces, a member of the U.S. government ?

Does the President make a budget request every year to the House of Reperesenitives
to fund the department of defense ?

Does the Federal Office of managemnt & Budget have authority to audit the U.S Army & every
other branch of the U.S. military ?

Why would the U.S. Senate & House Armed Services committees
(elected representatives of the legislative branch of the U.S. government)

have oversite of the U.S. Military if it's not part of the U.S government

Are you familiar with the Freedom of Information Act ?

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