New FBI Study...LEOs vs Tangos...gunfighting... - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New FBI Study...LEOs vs Tangos...gunfighting... (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/26/2007 3:57:38 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Also note it appears this grand report is the culmination of studying a grand total of 43 offenders and 50 cops.

Given the complexities of getting *any* sample like this, that's probably about the best you can get.

It's not like the cop-killers currently appealing their death penalty are lining up to talk about their tactics to the po-po.

Posted: 2/26/2007 3:59:08 PM EDT

[#2]

that study, ASSuming it's legit, made me realize i've been underestimating the bad guys

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:01:35 PM EDT

[#3]

Good read, thanks for the post.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:05:52 PM EDT

[#4]

... and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Thats rather telling... isnt it.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:15:14 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I keep thinking of Jericho where everybody works together. What BS. When 20-35 gang members show up in your neighborhood things will be difficult. Who are you going to call? The police will be down at the Safeway and hospital trying to maintain order. Just my 2 cents.

You need not think of Jericho.

Just look at what happened in Katrina.

If social order breaks down those who were barely contained by the social order will go hog wild at least in the short term...looting and worse can be expected to happen in the aftermath of a disaster and/or attack.

The police will be overwhelmed and people will be on their own for long periods of time.

Bad guys will know this and will exploit it to the maximum.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:16:28 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
this report has be bounceing on the net for a few months now..both as an FBI study and as a study from another source I cant remember who it was but i emailed then to ask because their other violence reports looked more technical....i havent gotten an answer I also emailed the FBI asking for source info on the study...no answer yet...but because of the way it is written it sound like some person wrote this report without any real knowledge...its a fraud someone needs to send it to snoopes

The LE guys on lightfighter are saying it is legit.

If anyone has more information on it, please share.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:17:39 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
It's not like the cop-killers currently appealing their death penalty are lining up to talk about their tactics to the po-po.

Precisely.

Getting data for a study like this is a pain in the neck...thus the usual 1068 randomly selected people isn't really an option for this one....

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:18:24 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

... and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Thats rather telling... isnt it.

Yes.

If almost half of the bad guys carry a backup, why don't more of the good guys?

I always pack a backup.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:19:02 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
that study, ASSuming it's legit, made me realize i've been underestimating the bad guys

Yup.

They aren't all clueless crackheads who couldn't find their a$$ with both hands and a flashlight.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:19:40 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I keep thinking of Jericho where everybody works together. What BS. When 20-35 gang members show up in your neighborhood things will be difficult. Who are you going to call? The police will be down at the Safeway and hospital trying to maintain order. Just my 2 cents.

You need not think of Jericho.

Just look at what happened in Katrina.

If social order breaks down those who were barely contained by the social order will go hog wild at least in the short term...looting and worse can be expected to happen in the aftermath of a disaster and/or attack.

The police will be overwhelmed and people will be on their own for long periods of time.

Bad guys will know this and will exploit it to the maximum.

Demographics.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:19:53 PM EDT

[#11]

Actually, if there are 800 shootings a year, 40 should be a sufficient sample size.

This report wasn't worthless. It points a very important thing:
Police are not out gunned. They're out trained.

The wrong answer constantly being given is that police need more firepower, lending to the fear of the militarization of police. But many of us here now all the tacticool goodies is not the important factor in surviving a gunfight. TRAINING is the important factor.

This report will never see the light of day from the media. It knocks out the argument that police are out gunned, and need to control guns.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:21:48 PM EDT

[#12]

He who decides to kill first usually wins. Let that be a lesson.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:22:01 PM EDT

[#13]

How can I get a hard copy of this report? I'd like to personally give a copy to my Congresswoman with a couple pages & passages stickied & highlighted.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:23:20 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Demographics.

Yup.

And as a person who lives in an area that used to be one of those "Nobody locks their doors here" places but in the last dozen years has turned into a place where the local PD seizes ungodly amounts of Meth and regularly arrests MS-13ers and Crips on the streets who are looking to franchise in this area, I can recognize that this ain't Mayberry anymore and I am prepared in case the entire community finds that out the hard way.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:23:53 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
He who decides to kill first usually wins. Let that be a lesson.

...and that is a luxury that most good guys do not have.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:26:18 PM EDT

[#16]

Well, Bass Pro Shops in Springfield is doing their part. Anyone with a state commission shoots at the pistol range for free.

The boss says the cops need all the help they can get. The sad thing is that it's just the same 10-15 guys that come in. For the most part, the horrible shooters I've seen when they come in to qualify don't take advantage of the offer.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:27:15 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
He who decides to kill first usually wins. Let that be a lesson.

...and that is a luxury that most good guys do not have.

Understood. The point remains. We start behind the curve, and must find ways to make up for that.

Remember the Deputy Dinkheller vid? When I make a statement like the one you quoted that is the type of thing that comes to mind. It was definitely true in that instance.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:32:50 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Remember the Deputy Dinkheller vid?

Is that the one where the poor deputy cannot process the fact that he is in a lethal fight and ends up being killed?

If so,

. It is the most disturbing video I have ever seen. It is an unfortunate example of what happens if you don't get your mind right about this stuff. The Deputy was, I am sure, a wonderful human being without the desire to hurt anyone, and he didn't deserve what happened to him.

Still, we must all face the reality that there are bad people out there who will kill us and will only be stopped if we shoot them first.

When I make a statement like the one you quoted that is the type of thing that comes to mind. It was definitely true in that instance.

Exactly.

As the good guys, we won't have the luxury of deciding when a lethal fight happens. We will be responding to the actions of the bad guys...which starts us out behind the 8 ball. That is why developing a fighting mindset and situational awareness are so crucial.

It can help you spot the gunfight coming from far enough away that you might be able to avoid it entirely, or certainly allow you to get in the fight early enough to save yourself.

It can't be emphasized enough, folks....gunfights don't happen when you are at your best. They happen under the worst possible circumstances. People construct hollywood like scenarios of fights in their head that usually have no resemblance to how they actually happen.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:39:35 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Very interesting.

Some of the statistics are causing the BS detector to jump a little bit though.

Understood.

However...

Quoted:
PAGING BRADY, MCCARTHY, AND ALL THE OTHER GUN GRABBERS!!!!

Weapon Choice

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available “was the overriding factor in weapon choice,” the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun “because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being.”

Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

This part of the report is also making me say, "No shit!"

Posted: 2/26/2007 6:07:54 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I recently read a very good book by Gabe Suarez titled "The Combative Perspective: The Thinking Man's Guide to Self-Defense".

This book is all about mindset, and is very informative, and easy to read.

To paraphrase one part of the book, Gabe says that you must assume that your adversary is bigger than you, stronger than you, armed better than you, and more proficient with his weapon than you are.

When you are training, if you envision yourself going up against an emaciated scrawny crackhead with a dull pocket knife as the type of "bad guy" that you will encounter on the street, you will be underestimating your enemy. This false idea of what the bad guy's abilities are can get you killed.

The book is well worth reading, and I highly recommend it.

Link to Book

Gabe may have a point, but I refuse to give any money to a fraud and perjurer. YMMV.

Please elaborate. Are you saying that Gabe Suarez did something that hurts his
credibility as a trainer and writer? When did he perjur himself? What's the scoop? Enlighten us that missed it.

Posted: 2/26/2007 9:00:01 PM EDT

[#21]

I know the full title of this work was posted earlier, but just to clarify, is this a public document or is distribution LE only? If I send for it as a private citizen, would I get it?

Posted: 2/27/2007 4:25:00 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I recently read a very good book by Gabe Suarez titled "The Combative Perspective: The Thinking Man's Guide to Self-Defense".

This book is all about mindset, and is very informative, and easy to read.

To paraphrase one part of the book, Gabe says that you must assume that your adversary is bigger than you, stronger than you, armed better than you, and more proficient with his weapon than you are.

When you are training, if you envision yourself going up against an emaciated scrawny crackhead with a dull pocket knife as the type of "bad guy" that you will encounter on the street, you will be underestimating your enemy. This false idea of what the bad guy's abilities are can get you killed.

The book is well worth reading, and I highly recommend it.

Link to Book

Gabe may have a point, but I refuse to give any money to a fraud and perjurer. YMMV.

Please elaborate. Are you saying that Gabe Suarez did something that hurts his
credibility as a trainer and writer? When did he perjur himself? What's the scoop? Enlighten us that missed it.

Gabe Suarez committed Worker's Compensation fraud, a crime for which he served just under a year in prison. Gabe claimed to have been injured in a slip and fall accident in the police locker room. He claimed he was too injured to return to work. While being so gravely injured, Gabe continued to teach his self-defense courses. He set up a shell corporation in his wife's name to receive payment for the training classes he was teaching. During the investigation of this crime, Suarez perjured himself not once, but twice in videotaped depositions. Since perjury is a felony in California, and would have left him unable to ever touch a gun (tough for his line of work), Suarez pled guilty to the lesser fraud charge to avoid the perjury conviction. He had to pay back over $100,000 in fraudulent Worker's Comp payments he had received. Naturally, Gabe now claims the whole thing was just a setup by "the man" to take him out.

He is a liar and a cheat and the less attention decent gun owners pay to him the better.

Posted: 2/27/2007 4:53:29 AM EDT

[#23]

So, I guess that having a plan to kill everyone I contact on the job isn't as far fetched as some would think, is it?

Posted: 2/27/2007 5:13:27 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
but I am uncomfortable even seeing police wearing BDUs.

Sorry that a pair of pants and a shirt gets you all uptight.

Posted: 2/27/2007 5:19:48 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Hmmm.

my thoughts exactly

Posted: 2/27/2007 5:43:45 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

... and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Thats rather telling... isnt it.

Yes.

If almost half of the bad guys carry a backup, why don't more of the good guys?

I always pack a backup.

I'm not a cop, but that is making me think about adding a BUG to my daily routine. Up untill now, I hadnt thought of it much.

Posted: 2/27/2007 6:28:46 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

... and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Thats rather telling... isnt it.

Yes.

If almost half of the bad guys carry a backup, why don't more of the good guys?

I always pack a backup.

I'm not a cop, but that is making me think about adding a BUG to my daily routine. Up untill now, I hadnt thought of it much.

No shit? Have you thought about keeping water in your car? How about a blanket?

Posted: 2/27/2007 7:38:55 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I'm not a cop, but that is making me think about adding a BUG to my daily routine. Up untill now, I hadnt thought of it much.

Backups are always a good thing.

Posted: 2/27/2007 8:00:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I am going to try and get a few copies of the study and pass them out. What is not mentioned here is that in a real SHTF these gang bangers will be the big issue for the local governments. I keep thinking of Jericho where everybody works together. What BS. When 20-35 gang members show up in your neighborhood things will be difficult. Who are you going to call? The police will be down at the Safeway and hospital trying to maintain order. Just my 2 cents.

Good point. We've already seen a preview in New Orleans.

Posted: 2/27/2007 8:08:46 PM EDT

[#30]

OK, since y'all asked...the article was sent to me via e-mail from a friend who works for Homeland Security. Considering who it came from I can be 99.99% sure it's legit.

Posted: 2/28/2007 6:00:31 AM EDT

[#31]

It took me a few minutes to track it down on the FBI website, but it's legit and available to the public if you request it from the UCR Program Office.

Anthony J. Pinizzotto, Edward F. Davis, and Charles E. Miller III, U.S. Department of Justice,
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Violent Encounters: Felonious Assaults on America’s Law Enforcement Officers (Washington, DC, 2006).

Information and other articles, including one titled "The Deadly Mix" by the above main author were distributed in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, January 2007, Volume 76, Number 1. This document is available online for anyone to read.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New FBI Study...LEOs vs Tangos...gunfighting... (Page 2 of 2)

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