You can lawyer up all day, you wont get crap except more pissed off.

I know, I have a judgement against a contractor for over $10,000 and haven't seen one penny from him and more than likely wont ever see anything.

If you get a lawyer, all that will happen is you'll be more out of pocket.

Live and learn.

oh yeah, the up front money is BS! NEVER do that. When I say never that means NEVER EVER! You are just asking them to walk away with your $$ without doing anything at all.

All contractors(all I have ever known)are lying, cheating, theives!

Sorry for your loss.

Next time, be your own contractor and sub out the work, you'll be glad you are the one always holding the cards.




eta: Anyone looking for some collections work? You get half of what you can retrieve.

Dude, I would be pissed as well!  

I'm currently getting bids on my kitchen/bathrooms and it's a real PITA to find a contractor who will do a great job (regardless of price).  My "regular" guy picked up and moved from Philly to Virginia so I cannot use him any more.   He was NOT cheap but he did great work, returned calls promptly and did everything quickly and on time.  In my experience, when you find a contractor that does that kind of work, you hold on and don't let go.  

Letter I wrote to the contractor (Note: the original version is a word .doc with pictures)









Dear Keith,

I am writing in regards to the outstanding balance that I owe you for work completed on my bathroom at my residence. As you are aware, work began Wednesday, March 21, 2006 and your crew finished up and left the site March 31, 2006. You initially expressed some concern at being able to complete the job on time when you visited on March 20, 2006 and although I wanted work to start as soon as possible, I recall that I remarked that I would prefer that you take your time and do the job right rather than rush and cut corners.

I spent the 1st and 2nd of April cleaning up the work area and assessing the work that was done now that all of the tools and construction materials had been removed. This was also an opportunity for me to inspect the work during the day when there was sufficient light to do so. After having done so, I want to point out some concerns that I have and give you an opportunity to address them.

I will include some pictures that I think are representative of some of my concerns. Obviously, not everything shows up in photos and these photos are not designed to be comprehensive documentation of every little flaw but rather are offered as examples of what I perceive to be problems.

The bid provided and the understanding we had was that ‘all trash’ would be removed as part of the bid. Below are a couple photos of trash that was left behind. Please note the door frame in the burn pile with metal hardware still attached. I have since taken care of the trash and, by itself, this is not a big deal but, in conjunction with other things, it suggests that the job was rushed and that some details were overlooked. I still have some 30 or 40 feet of pipe laying in my front yard that has been there since the first day. Someone did throw away a carpet runner that was in the upstairs hall. Although this was a well-worn item, it did cost $70.00 and we were still using it. After sitting in the rain for two days, it has pretty well had it. Had I realized that it had been thrown out with the trash, I would have rescued it before it was rained on but I didn’t realize it had been thrown away until after your crew left.

 
The trash really is the least of my concerns and has already been dealt with except for the pipe but I mention it because I think it is a symptom of the rushed job. One of the much larger concerns I have is the condition of the floor. You advised me that buffing would be necessary on the floor. I carefully cleaned the floor with clean cotton terry cloths. While the floor ended up being very clean, the cleaning brought out a great deal of scratches. One particularly glaring scratch appears to have been caused during the installation of the vanity.

Apart from this, the entire floor is covered with smaller scratches not nearly so deep. While they are not immediately apparent from a distance, they are obvious upon inspection. I don’t believe the marble will ever shine properly without being professionally restored. I have contacted an individual who does such work to see if he can remedy the situation but at least one other person that claims to be knowledgeable in this area has indicated that replacement would be cheaper than restoration. See the pictures below showing the worst marble damage.

I have larger high-resolution pictures that show what I’m describing much better. I can email to you any copies that you would like. The scratches are not my only concern with the floor. Upon inspecting the grout, there are at least three places where the grout has substantial divots in it. I don’t know whether this will have any effect on the life of the grout joint but it certainly does not look good. Below are pictures of two such spots. You can see some of the lighter scratches in these pictures too.

More disturbing than this is the fact that the floor appears to be uneven. There are spots where I can actually feel how crooked the floor is by walking on them in my stocking or bare feet. The picture below seems to demonstrate that the floor is not level. The tiles on the left are longer vertically than those on the right. This suggests to me that the floor is higher in the corner than elsewhere. This tends to confirm what I can feel by simply standing on this part of the floor. I also checked with a level and found the floor to be rather uneven.

As you will recall, you originally were going to build shelves in the linen closet area for me as part of the bid. Ultimately, you advised Carissa and myself that the shelves would likely sag because of the length of the distance they would need to span. You suggested obtaining some linen cabinets instead and indicated that you would construct an enclosure to make them look as of they were permanently installed. I obtained the linen cabinets at a cost of nearly $600, obviously an extra cost over and above the bid so that I could make use of the closet space; a major aspect of this project from the beginning.

      As you know, nothing was fabricated to make the cabinets appear built-in. This frankly would have been no big deal except for one fact. I cannot, despite my best efforts, make these cabinets sit flat on the floor. Without some kind of substantial labor (either fixing of the floor or building of an enclosure/shimming) the cabinets will not sit flat and therefore look terrible. I confirmed that a tilted floor is the culprit using a level.

       I assume that the ‘extra’ costs (those above and beyond the bid) amounting to more than $400 that you mentioned on the final day of work include the time spent assembling the prefabricated cabinets and allow a credit for not having to build the shelves as originally planned. I originally thought that the cabinets would need to be assembled ASAP so that the enclosure or trimming out could be done to make them look built-in and if that was the case, it would make sense to have your crew assemble them on-site, despite the cost. Since this was not done, however, the cabinets could have been obtained later and assembled by either myself or by Lowe’s for a nominal charge. I guess what I’m getting at is that, under the circumstances, it would be totally senseless to pay a skilled labor rate for the cabinet assembly, a largely unskilled task. Either way, please see the pictures below to see what I mean about the cabinets not sitting flat. In the picture on the right, the cabinet is actually touching the wall at floor level.

The last major concern I have that appears rather obvious in pictures is the trueness of the vanity or walls. I think that the two following pictures illustrate what I am talking about. The vanity actually cuts into the wall in the back but something is off so that at the front of the vanity, the countertop does not even touch the wall.

For some reason, no trim was done in any of the areas where there was no tile on the wall. Typically, I would expect trim to be put in place where sheetrock meets the tile floor. Frankly, this is a relatively minor concern as it is easy enough to put in some trim after the fact but I had expected the work to be trimmed out, where appropriate. Strangely, the tile does not go all the way to the door on either side and appears to stop arbitrarily. Had the tiling gone all the way to the door, it might have even hidden the problem mentioned above with the vanity.

Below is a picture of some of the other tiling. The tile was run right up to the outlet boxes over the vanity making it difficult to put on cover plates. As a result, I had to have my electrician move the boxes so that covers could be put on. The problem has been resolved, however, Carissa says that she specifically told you that the tile should be brought up to the medicine cabinet and says that you told her that would not work for some reason. I thought that the original plan was to bring the tile up to the mirrored cabinet. I’m not sure why that was not done. You had instructed me to buy 160 square foot of ceramic tile and I have a tremendous amount of extra tile for which I have no use. I have not yet had an opportunity to see if Home Depot will allow me to return the surplus special order tile.

I think that you are a great guy and your workers that were out were always friendly and courteous and seemed to be hard-working, all-around nice guys, as well. The work was completed on time as promised, too. However, I expected a much slicker and cleaner installation that what I ended up with. I would have pointed out some of these things sooner but until the area had been thoroughly cleaned and I could examine it in daylight, I was not in any position to really inspect the work that had been done. I am not an inspector and don’t have any eye for these things. After all, that is one of the reasons I hired professionals to do this work. It is beyond my capabilities.

       I have consulted with another contractor to get his opinion on the install. I acknowledge that builders can differ in opinion on these things so I am not suggesting that this builder’s opinion is the final word, by any means. I will note that his criticism is not likely motivated by a desire to do ‘corrective’ work for me because he is located in Arizona and does not work in this area. I do want to share with you his criticism, however, so that you will understand my concern. Quotes from him are indented and set off below.

The work is substandard and should not be considered completed for final
payment.

The tile should never have been installed over a floor not properly
leveled.  In addition, it looks like the wrong float was used for what appears to be
unsanded grout on a glazed marble finish.  Only 2-step sanded grout is
appropriate for glazed marble, and a rubber float will reduce the chance of
scratching the glazed surface.

Repairing the tile will be expensive, requiring a professional experienced
in sanding, polishing, and glazing marbled surfaces (I am not licensed or
experienced in this area of restoration).  Regardless, resurfacing damaged
tile is useless when said tile is installed on a floor so out of level the
adjoining wall tiles cannot line up properly.  To effect a proper repair, the
existing tile must be removed and a leveling agent applied suitable to the
area of residence to bring the floor to level except where floor drains are
present.

The grout should have no divots (called bug holes, like air bubbles in cement).  

The vanity top is not properly installed.  The gap between the leading edge
(facefront) and the wall, combined with the fact the rear edge (wall
transition) is embedded in the sheetrock, clearly indicates the vanity
carcase is not squared to the walls or was improperly cut.  This is usually
accountable to pre-formed carcases and tops after the house has settled,
meaning that the walls are not perfectly squared.  In this instance, custom
installation is necessary to square the demising wall to the exterior wall
or to square both demising walls; or, to custom cut the carcase and top to
angled proportions equivalent to the difference between the leading edge and
the rear transition (and faucet layout adjusted accordingly). The vanity top should never penetrate the wall material.

Finally, trash left on the jobsite is completely unacceptable.  A completed
installation manifests itself only after the customer's house is thoroughly
cleaned and all penetrations and seams are sealed properly. Construction
residue of any type should be removed by the contractor unless specified in
the contract for bid approval.

As a professional contractor specializing in residential and commercial
installations and renovations, I am deeply disappointed that any fellow
professional would assign their reputation to this [lack of] quality of
work.  As tradesmen, we have a responsibility to our contract holders to
ethically complete our projects in a manner that exudes quality and
integrity.  This installation should not be paid until suitable repairs have
been completed to bring the standards of the job to your satisfaction.

Again, please keep in mind that I am not taking Richard’s assessment as gospel as he has not even personally inspected the work. He has seen only the pictures that I sent to him. On the other hand, some of these things definitely look wrong to me. Richard’s suggestion was that I raise these issues with you because it is very possible that you did not notice them for the same reason that I didn’t. I apologize for not raising some of these concerns earlier but they were largely not apparent to me until after the tools, equipment and supplies were removed, the construction dust and debris was cleaned and I had ample daylight to inspect the work.

       As mentioned, some of the flaws are trivial. On the other hand, a number of these items are not trivial. Those items of greatest concern are the floor and the vanity top. The electrician has resolved the electrical box problem and so it is a non-issue, trim can be added easily enough, and I have already cleaned up the trash, for the most part, with the notable exception of the pipes that were removed.

In any event, I’d like to have you come back to look at some of these details and talk with me about what can be done to remedy them. In particular, I would like the floor to be level and the vanity to be true with the wall. I look forward to hearing from you.



Sincerely,



[me]  

hey,
im a contractor in VA you need a lawyer
i never trash anothers work but that is just awfull
didnt read where you paid or not so dont

sue

Quoted: I think if the contractor saw the before area, that he should have checked the walls and floor for plumb/level, and stated problems in his bid.   If you are expecting him to go into a house that on the whole is neither level nor plumb and frame/complete his work to perfection, it probably will not happen, besides, it would look funny. On the other hand, if the walls and floors are decent to begin with, then all the new work should be also.  I would never write plumb and level on a bid, it is implied and expected as industry standards to be built that way. Referal, referal, referal. Steven

Exactly what I told you, Legalese77.  All bids are created to a defined and understood industry standard than any licensed contractor knowa and is supposed to adhere to.  Some things simply go without saying.  "I am going to install a cabinet" naturally implies it will be installed in the right spot, with the doors hung, shelves installed, and be functional when the payment is due.  And that is won't 30-degrees after installation.

Do doctors do surgery without sterile instruments?  

Your contractor didn't want the job - he was low on work and NEEDED the work, so he bid it.  He got the job and, as exactly as we talked about on the phone, threw up his arms and said, "Well, given the circumstances, I can just do it THIS way, rather than THIS way."  

That is simply shoody work, and their is no excuse for it.  The owners of the properties I manage frequent this site.  Do you think they'd be happy with my remodeling thread if I said, "Well, this looks like shit, but it's just an apartment so I'm leaving it and charging full price."  

They'd fire my ass in a heartbeat.

Quoted: The person taking on the job has a responsibility to inform you there are unforeseen add ons. In this case Stevie Wonder could have foreseen the added cost and informed you the floors are not level and and the job needs to be done right "we need to level the floors first". you have a cause of action and you might even be able to tap his insurance co for the added costs. Incidentally the redo might exceed the initial costs. Also the workmanship upon close inspection is fucked up. The guy and or his crew are not craftsmen by a damn sight. The money for the job $4400.00 is not much for that job if the job was done correctly but as it is it's not worth $400.00. I hope I didn't offend you but you wanted and honest expert opinion and thats what I gave.

That is EXACTLY what I told him the other night on the phone, jrzy.  You hit the nail on the head.  The job was morth more for bid, but will cost twice as much to rip out and do right now.

If you bid a job for $1, it isn't worth the $1...  It is about doing it right and not tainting your reputation to get away with things.  If you're not going to do the job right, with a professional finished product, don't bid on it.  

Real world, rarely is anything plumb, level and square.  With an old house I would never expect it to be.

That said, with any amount of skill you should not notice unless you actually pulled out a plumb, a level, and a square.

The work done on your house was a travesty.  Try to get it fixed or your money back asap - that contractor will not be in business very long and will be judgement proof or gone in no time.  

taggage

Leaglese77,

Like the other posters, I don't naturally trash other people's work.  But I make an exception to your situation, because guys that get away with work like that give all of us in the trades a bad name as a bunch of drunkard ripoffs willing to swing a hammer a for any amount of money.


I am no where near as good as someone like jrzy (and that was some AMAZING work!) but I do the best job I can with what I have to work with.  That's all I'd ask of anyone, their best, whether they are sweeping a floor or building a mansion.

That's not what you got for your money.  Therefore, it is unacceptable.  The poster who said that a guy with a set of tools and a lady doing the paperwork not necessarilly being a contractor was spot on.  References, references, references.  And I know this guy came highly recommended, which just adds to my ire knowing he could have done it right but simply didn't.  

I agree with you Richard... I'm just trying to figure out where this guy is coming from. The opinion seems to be unanimous, however. I'll be calling 2 other contractors on Monday to have them come out, render an opinion on workmanship as well as on cost of repair.

BTW, I checked the other end of the floor...not level either... the floor actually is v shaped and rises towards the walls. I also have more pictures of additional flaws I have found. I will post those later...for now, pics of days two, three and four of construction:

Day 2: Thursday March 23, 2006






Day 3: March 24, 2006






Day 4: March 27, 2006

Day 5: March 28, 2006






Day 6: March 29, 2006







Day 7: March 30, 2006

Who puts a finished marble floor down before the walls are completed, tiled, and painted?  Maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years thinking the floor goes in last so it doesn't have construction traffic trapsing all over it  

Actually, the installation looks pretty good except the substrate work.  If they would have taken the extra 1/2 day to level and plumb the substrate, it would be a good job.  Prep work is EVERYTHING in this trade.  You can't polish a turd, but you can do a little effort to make certain your finished product will be plumb, level, and square - which would have solved all your woes when the finished product doesn't look right because the base of the construction is so off.  

This guy looks like he can do some quality work.  I think he just goofed in the prep work.  I am guilty of that, too, as I'm sure everyone is.  Still, when you goof you have to make it right, even if you incur a loss.  Ethics 101, Business Law 101 (detriment and reliance), and Warranty Studies 101.  

No contractor is above making a mistake, and the mistakes we make should be corrected so our reputation as professionals remains in tact.  And because it is simply the right thing to do.  

In your case, the mistake was underestimating the extent of the substrate flaws.  It really is that simple.

For instance:

Let's say I bid a job for the owners of the property I manage.  There are several steps involved in the process that must be followed if the job is to be completed to their satisfaction - which is always the #1 priority.

First, I visit the job to get an idea of the scope of work.  Is it within my ability?  What needs to be subcontracted?  How will the work begin and proceed?  Most importantly, what am I building on?  I can do the best quality I am capable of, but if I install quality over junk, the result is junk...  Like adding a negative and a positive when the negative number is bigger, you get a closer to zero margin but never hit the mark.  

When I visit the job I am bidding, I examine everything with a tape measure and a level, and I make meticulous notations for possible problematic areas (floor is not level, so what will it take to make it level so my counters are level?).

Then I research the specified materials, add 15% for overage costs, and build that into my estimated labor.  Into that figure goes another 15% - better to have the job under bid than over bid, which is an area I need to improve in.  

When I submit a proposal (a bid), it is with the understanding there are industry standards that mean expectations.  If my bid doesn't include leveling the floor I am putting tile on, I have no right to backcharge the customer to level.  If my bid includes, "Install vanity cabinet and finish with ceramic tile, to be grouted with color XX-12345, 4" backsplash grouted same, sealed as necessary, and trimmed at fracefront with drip edge," I then assume the position that the vanity will be flush with the demising walls, level and square, and all work that must occur to make it as such is built into the bid.  

I just cannot imagine all that effort installing the materials over a junk substrate to save a few bucks ~ maybe another $500.  That is just silly in my eyes.  

I called another contractor today to have him come out and examine this job and see what the cost of repair will be but I have not yet heard back. I will have Mr. Goehl out before long to 'see what can be done' Frankly, after our last phone call I doubt that little meeting will accomplish much but it's worth a try, I suppose.

I took some pictures of some additional flaws that I hope to post this evening.

Quoted: I think you should get a lawyer. That is unacceptable.

+1.

Quoted: I called another contractor today to have him come out and examine this clusterf@$& and see what the cost of repair will be. I will have Mr. Goehl out before long to 'see what can be done' Frankly, after our last phone call where everyone was at fault but him and he expressed approval of the work that was done, I doubt that little meeting will accomplish much but it's worth a try, I suppose. I took some pictures of some additional flaws that I hope to post this evening.

Make sure you get no less than 3 bids from 3 contractors.  The median amount (average) will be your lawful judgment for repairs of services rendered.  

I know I've said this before, but I am sorry you're going through this bro.  You really seem like a nice guy.

Well, for a lawyer  

Quoted: I know I've said this before, but I am sorry you're going through this bro.  You really seem like a nice guy. Well, for a lawyer

For a lawyer, I'm a GREAT guy

Seriously, though, I have emailed the contractor a link to this thread. I would not be surprised if he chimes in to tell his side of this. Apparently my letter upset him and the workers a great deal. Today he reminded me that my pictures don't tell the whole story. That's true, they do not. On the other hand, the pictures accurately represent that which they are intended to represent and have not been modified except for resizing (smaller so they aren't enormous) and cropping.

The during and post construction pictures were all taken with a Canon SD450 with auto flash and focus. Macro was used to take pictures of the grout defects. Flash was turned off only when the glare blotted out the detail. An old Kodak was used to take all the pre-work pictures.

Mr. Goehl has told me not to worry and that he will straighten out all the detail stuff. I reminded him that the detail stuff was not what concerned me but rather the squareness of the walls and the level of the floor. He is adamant that such work was not part of the job. When I asked what it would have cost to have leveled the floor, he speculated that it might have been another $2,000.00.

The frustration here is maddening. This whole house needs renovation. I can't imagine going through this once more, much less once more for every room in the entire house. There are 5 other rooms upstairs and 7 downstairs. Maybe it's time to move.

I'll be interested in his side of the story!

Sounds like a good idea.  Maybe you can both learn some lessons out of this.