A bike a car - just want to know how much time at speed.

This is a troll thread.

I came to the same conclusion about 6 hours ago.

I disagree, but I appreciate you voicing your opinion.

Not much

Did you start on a 600 or something else? I’ve been browsing older model 6r’s as well. It’s clear many are convinced I’ll end up dead with a 1k, but the 6r would be the racier seating position with significantly less HP change.

Regardless of the actual hp number most of the current hot 600s will spank that 650.

Virtually all of the liter class sport bikes have IMU-based (think gyros and accelerometers like your phone has) rider aids, and they are fly by wire meaning the throttle is computer operated. That IMU along with wheel speed sensors feed a computer to figure out what the bike is doing and determine if it needs to step in and help you. My bike has:

Wheelie control
Lean angle sensitive ABS
Lean angle sensitive traction control
Real wheel lift control
And, Slide control

The suspension is electronic too and makes adjustments while you ride.

These are as much performance aids now as safety aids, and they are barely intrusive at all until you turn the sensitivity way up. That said, they will back you up right until the point that they can’t save you anymore.... and getting close enough to look over that edge on the street means putting yourself at significant risk for most of those aids. Everyone wheelies a literbike once in a while, either voluntarily or involuntarily so they will keep you from flipping over and help you get better drive off of corners. But, if you find yourself regularly breaking traction out of corners on the street you are a threat to yourself and people around you.

IMO, these aids are valuable when you aren’t pushing very hard and maybe get greedy on cold tires or over rough pavement and get caught out. Being able to grab the biggest fistful of front brake you can on a wet corner at max lean is pretty fantastic too. But, you still have to Ride the bike and ask more than it can give.

When you do eventually move up to a big bike, you are going to find that they are like comparing diamonds to gravel with your 650. I’m not saying this because i’m a bike snob (I fucking love my Grom), everything on the bikes will be better designed and engineered compared to a commuter twin like your bike. This means better chassis, better brakes, much better suspension...... all of which make riding the bike faster seem a lot slower than it is, and that’s where trouble starts. The first few seasons you ride is where you start scaring yourself by making compound mistakes..... a little late on the brakes, a little off line in a corner etc. puts you too deep to slow down or having to do all of your turning at once at a time you are too fast and deep into a corner.... which is exactly what happened to the guy in that video that went off the cliff. The bike was fine, he got into the corner hot and off line and stopped riding it because he panicked. His life will never be the same, even if he recovers. It’s worth noting that the bike he was on was a Yamaha MT-10, which is a naked R1 that has almost all of the same electronic aids my bike has...... none of that mattered because he rode in over his head. That fancy lean angle sensitive ABS never had the chance to save him because he didn’t use it, didn’t trust the bike to make the corner, and rode straight off a cliff instead. I did the same thing about 29 years ago when I was 17 and hit a pasture fence on the way home from work at 1 am.

I’m going to say it again, there are no small mistakes on a bike that has a 100+mph first gear. Put some thought into this for a while. Even buying an older bike doesn’t get you any more safety-I was riding those bikes when they were new and they were just as dangerous then as the new bikes are now.

Would you consider a 2013-2015 6r current? I think they’re around 112hp, but afaik most of that power is high in the rev range, so it wouldn’t be difficult to stay out of it while lackadaisically riding, which seems like a decent comprise to still get more of the super sport feeling.

I want to reiterate that I appreciate you taking the time to write this out, and I apologize I should’ve been more specific.

I meant to ask if you could elaborate on the situation you ended up where your R1 traction control stepped in and kept you from highsiding.

Agreed on all of your points, however.

I wouldn’t say that. I know I don’t worry about ending up dead on a bike, in fact I think it’d be a pretty nice way to go if it were quick.... die having a great time doing something you love? Sounds a hell of a lot better than having a heart attack at 77 as your wife give you warm Metamucil before bed.....

I worry about ending up alive and mising a leg or arm. I really worry about becoming paralyzed and losing everything I have worked for in life, not being able to work and having to watch my life pass me by because I’m in a fucking wheel chair.

My biggest fear (aside from being burned in a fire) is waking up 4 days after a bike wreck in a nursing home and paralyzed from the waste down with a ghetto rat CNA refusing to wipe the shit off of my ass when I need it done for the rest of my life.

I’m not here to preach or hold your hand. I was riding a ZX-11 when I was a 118lb 21 year old. I had spent a year on a 50cc bike and 4 months on an FZR400 before I got that bike. I know what it means to ride a bike that is too much for me because of that experience as well as the fact that 15 bikes and three decades later I still haven’t ridden a sport bike that I was faster than-and I ride my bikes REALLY hard. I do it out in the country during hours with little traffic, and I ride with people that are mature and ride to improve themselves as riders like I do.

There is a time and place for everything in life. With bikes it could mean getting the bike you want or not, or it could mean making decisions on a ride that hurt you badly, or worse. Just understand that that riding high performance bikes comes with some level of Risk attached and potentially significant consequences. Part of maturity is understanding the difference between Can and Should.

Good luck with your choice and be careful either way.

I think Rectally Violate is probably a better description of the beating a 600 would lay on a 650 twin.

600’s have barely changed in the last ten years, a 2008 is still a current 600 IMO.

Read you loud and clear brother, thanks for giving me the time of day.

Okay.

We have a road on one of our rides that has some fast twisty bits separated by some gentle sweepers. The rule for our group is that we maintain decent separation and go whatever speeds we are comfortable at in the corners. Coming into the second twisty section, we started to speed up a bit on this open road with a right hand sweeper. I was gently rolling thru about 70 in 3rd, which isn’t accelerating that hard yet because the engine isn’t, relatively speaking, making much power at that low of an RPM. In one swift move, the RPM shot up, the back tire broke loose, the seat fell away from my ass as the bike stepped out, I felt cool air on my balls, and then the rear tire felt like it bounced off a curb as it regained traction and the ignition cut to arrest the slide. It was over and done with before I got to roll of the throttle.

I don’t know if it was a couple of pebbles I rode over, broken pavement or what. I had been playing with the sensitivity levels and had turned it all the way down because the sensitivity numbers on the dash are backwards to what you would expect. I haven’t been able to do it again.

The ABS feels like a weak pulsing sensation under the brake lever, the wheelie control I can’t feel at all. Depending on the level I have it set to, it will either not allow any wheelie, or float the front off the ground at 6 inches. The power delivery and balance point on this bike make it a terrible bike for wheelies so I am glad it is there.

The CBR600rr is more than a full second faster in the quarter mile which is a extreme difference. Your 650 isn't much faster than my VTX 1800. Plenty fast to get you in trouble obviously but the supersports really are a different animal.

I don't do a lot with sport bikes but I know plenty of people commute on the 600's. It is true that the liter bikes have more power to work with at all ranges and that can make them easier to ride in some situations but there are also thousands of people that ride those 600s every day.

You won't notice the extra kick until you ask for it.

I moved from a Ninja 250 to a GSXR 600 to a Ducati 1098 S and finally to an 1199R.

The gap from the Ninja to the GSXR was night and day but riding the 1098S was comfortable as soon as I started riding.  Honestly, other than being a bit less comfortable in terms of riding position I think it was actually easier to ride than the GSXR.

I read all the same BS you're hearing here when I started.  The truth is, if you aren't willfully an idiot the extra power won't matter at all.  If you are an idiot you'll be dead regardless of engine size.  I wish I had skipped the GSXR entirely and saved myself the money I lost selling it by getting the Ducati immediately once I was confident in my ability on the Ninja.

Guys are saying that going fast in a straight line on an empty road is dangerous?  You've got 700 miles on a bike with an average suspension and have already been to 120mph.  Common-sense would tell you the majority of the bikes you're looking at now have better suspensions making them more safe at those same speeds, not less safe solely because of the stronger motor.

I stopped riding because of a couple close calls.  Close calls that would have happened on any of the bikes I mentioned.  Don't be a dumbass and your odds will improve regardless of the bike you go with.  I would recommend staying away from group rides as that seems to be when people get stupid.

How the fuck does one drive a bike?
Do you drive a horse?

You’re talking to someone who thinks you can’t corner a bike at a lowly 120mph....

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Here's a pic of my fucked up gsxr 600 that I sent it over a low siding ducati at a track.

I rode my spare track bike that day, and on the street the next day. Good gear saved my ass then and many other times..... if you can afford a bike, you can afford good leathers too.

Wear them at all times.

Damn, My bike looked sad taken apart and I did that on purpose. Involuntary deconstruction is just heartbreaking . Glad you made it out safe! Leathers are on my list. What do you keep for your spare track bike?

Not sure where you got cruisers from my post. While I have nothing against those who like them, I personally don't care for them either. Just not my thing. My primary is ADV these days.

SV650S.

Starting from zero experience - the MSF BRC was the first time I was ever on a motorcycle of any kind - there's a LOT to learn. That also means that mistakes will be made. Likely many mistakes. Bikes aren't exactly forgiving when it comes to mistakes, but the smaller bikes on a whole generally are far more so than big bikes. As some have already mentioned, if you grab a bit more throttle than you meant to on a superbike, things are more likely to get "exciting" (e.g., unintentional wheelies) than on a smaller bike. You're less likely be entering a turn WAY too fast (instead of just "too fast") because you're less likely to be going that kind of speed to begin with. While even entering at what seems to be an excessive speed can often be recoverable (as many people don't realize how much lean they really have available, not to mention what you can accomplish with proper body position), chance are that if you come in WAY too hot without experience, you simply won't know how to react in time. Making the smaller mistakes not only points out the original mistake (misjudging entry speed), but also allows for similarly smaller corrections to be made. You are more likely to be able to make these small corrections (as opposed to big corrections) when still green, and this helps build up experience concerning what to do when things go wrong (Murphy's always out there).

Smaller bikes also help to alleviate anxiety in new riders because they are easier to handle. While I certainly have no problems now riding tall bikes, being on something you can't flat-foot isn't confidence-inspiring when you're a total noob. Being light helps in the same way. If you are unsure of yourself because of how hard it is to handle the bike at a stop, or in a parking lot, it may affect your overall ability. (Which can lead to more mistakes, hesitation in wanting to ride more, etc.)

Having a small, easy-to-ride bike first means you can focus on really learning to ride - part of which is learning to cope with the myriad hazards out there when riding on the street. Having a bike where a small mistake remains a small mistake is a big help to a new rider - as opposed to a bike where a small mistake quickly snowballs into a big mistake.

While one certainly can start on a superbike and make it out okay, I'm never going to recommend it to anyone.

The latter - as some others have already echoed as well. There have been world-class racers that won't ride on the street for anything, as they feel it is far too dangerous with all of the additional hazards - especially other motorists. And even when you exclude them, real roads still offer far more hazards than a true track. (See: IoM TT.)

All of my research pointed towards learning how to ride a slower/smaller bike well, typically creates a more skillful rider. I also went with a 650. I understand the appeal to stepping up onto something with a big more 'go' in it. I've resisted the urge to up-grade and for the most part I think I have a long way to go before I can ride a 650 to its full capacity.  If the 650 isn't fun enough in a straight line maybe its time to find a canyon, curvy road or a track.  I've found the funnest riding to be at under 65MPH on a roadway that pushes my skill to its limit.

For reference I average about 4K miles per year and I think it'll be a few more years before I could use a faster bike.

My spare is a ninja 650

Never in all my time riding rockets did I ever accidentally grab more throttle than I intended to-.  I wonder where this old wives tale keeps getting propagated from?

Never been on YouTube I take it?

Riding 80s 600s?

A LOT different than anything modern.

Why am I not surprised...
You don’t need a backup to your backup do you?

I think it's a matter of misreading the available traction.

I have 9 motorcycles..... no room for duplicates

I’ve seen this movie before.

Hell, I’ve starred in this movie before

Try an 1199R.

We do our own stunts

You’ll enjoy the liter bike much better if you know how to ride well.  Ride that 650 until you ride really smooth and gracefully without having to think about what you are doing, then when you step up to the liter bike, you’ll be able to do really beautiful things with it.

Get a used Ninja 1000.

Because smoking is the same thing as riding a motorcycle?  

If you're a responsible person I can't imagine it'll be much more dangerous. Of course it has potential to be much faster/ dangerous, but you as the rider determine how safe it is, not the bike.

Buy what you'll enjoy, be safe, and wear proper gear.

You can be responsible, but the throttle is so strong on a modern liter bike that if you're not smooth and well practiced, it's easy to goose it a little too hard and throw yourself off.  However, most bikes have a lot of rider aids now to help keep you out of trouble.

Modern 600s are fast as shit but liter bike power is INSANE.  It's dream like.

Bullshit.

It's absolutely not easy to goose it and throw yourself off.

A 600 does the quarter in like 11 seconds.  The liter bikes do it in like 10.  Give me a break with that bogus crap about "insane" power.

Anyone that can ride a 600 supersport can ride a 1000 equally well - period.  Neither is a good bike to learn on initially but there's no reason to do that intermediate step.  Listening to people like you giving shit advice on the internet cost me money when I pointlessly bought a 600 first.

Once you get skilled on your first bike, preferably something small, you can move to any rocket.

My various Ducatis were probably easier to ride than my GSXR-600 due to the nicer suspensions.

There is a big power difference between 13 second, 12 second, 11 second and 10 second 1/4 miles.  The difference gets larger as the times get lower.

Get out there on a cold street with cold tires and see how easy it is to whip the end of the liter bike around and high side yourself...

You can do that on a 600 too, but it's really easy to happen on a liter bike.

I have a 600 F4i that I've ridden 55k on so far and a '15 CBR1000RR that I've put 12k on so far.  I've actually high sided the 600 at 11k miles because the ass end whipped out on me during the above scenario.  Both of them still in the garage and get ridden all the time.

After learning that lesson, I won't punch the throttle mid-turn let it happen again.

That liter bike is TWICE as powerful as my 600.

Well thanks for admitting that your issue is related to not knowing how to ride a bike.

The rider errors that you just described were the cause of your crash, not the size of the engine.

You shouldn't apply additional power until you've reached the apex of the turn and you damn sure shouldn't be doing it in cold weather with cold summer tires.

I suggest you go take a few training courses before giving more poor advice about the relevance of the size of the engines.

To everyone else; ya, if you apply too much throttle to a two-wheeled vehicle with cold tires in cold weather conditions there's a good chance you're going flying.

Everybody has to learn.  At 11k miles, obviously I wasn't as good as a rider as I am now, 12 years and about 100k miles combined (I also have a Harley).

You suggesting to the OP that he's ready for a liter bike after 700 miles on a 650 is the one not making any sense.

Perhaps, you should start riding again to remember how it was like.

I don't know his overall riding ability or his total combined time on motorcycles.  If all he has is 700 miles on a 650 I wouldn't recommend a 600ss or a 1000 because they're going to be expensive to dump and he's already got the sunk costs in on the bike he owns.  I'm simply suggesting he's just as ready or not ready for a 600 supersport as he is for a liter bike - that's all.  My main suggestion for someone that's never had a bike before would be to buy one initially that you aren't afraid to drop.

I do remember how it was like and the liter bikes were easier to ride due to having nicer suspensions.  In fact, on the same token I think my GSXR-600 was actually easier to ride than the Ninja 250 I had to start.  I remember jumping on the GSXR worried it was going to be difficult and it simply wasn't.   Companies tend to do more improvements than just slapping the bigger motor in their more expensive, more powerful bikes.

The only reason to start on small bikes is so that when you screw up and dump them, your cost is lower.  I simply don't buy the theory they're easier to handle than other rockets.  My Ninja 250 weighed pretty close to my Ducati and definitely handled worse.   In reality I learned to ride by sticking to areas with very light or no traffic and after I had the fundamentals down a few weeks in I doubt the size of the motor mattered.  Then again I thought the motorcycle safety course was mostly a joke too as half of it was spent going around the room reading and highlighting a book as slowly as possible to meet the hours for the course required by the state.  ...and guys talk about that course like it's the second coming.

My lap times were virtually identical on 600s and open-class.

Open class bikes are less forgiving.  Fact.

We're talking about street riding here buddy.

Obviously you can take a bigger engine closer to the limits when you choose to.

Same same.  “Forgiving” is the key word.  The mid range bikes are more forgiving of rider error.

It’s one thing reading or being told what to do or not to do, it’s another thing to have the feel to know when too much is too much.

You can easily loop a liter bike before you know it if you give it too much gas in first.  A 600 will give you a fair bit more warning.

After you get the feel and riding a motorcycle is no longer an awkward foreign feeling, and you are smooth and graceful, which takes tens of thousands of miles of seat time, then the bikes that are off the chain are made for you.   And you still might wipe out spectacularly.

Whack the throttle wide open without thinking on a small bike and most of the time (except in the middle of a corner or something, obviously) it's, "meh".

Whack the throttle open wide open without thinking on a liter bike and you're at warp speed and/or on the pavement watching your bike do six foot flips and shitting expensive plastic everywhere.

It's all about respect.  You don't give a new shooter a .500 S&W magnum and say, "here, go have fun."

Streets don't have oil flags or yellow flags or cornerworkers.  Streets don't have just a group of plausibly competent people pretty much doing the same thing.

Riding sedately, short shifting and paying attention to what's going on?  Yeah, someone with very little experience can get along well with any motorcycle.

It's when a rider loses self control and gets beyond his limits of experience and skills and luck that literbikes smite them.  At those limits is where literbikes are extremely unforgiving.

What's it that Capt. Sullenberger said after the Miracle on the Hudson?

"One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience, education and training. And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawl."

With a liter bike, morso than any motorcycle, you need that balance available.  There's no overdraft protection.

Full disclosure.  My first motorcycle was a CBR1100XX.  I had ridden before, but it was the first bike I owned.  Looking back?  I was very, very lucky.

It very much depends on the bike.
The CBR1100XX for example is very stable and relatively docile unless you really try to go fast. Its long and heavy and really needs to be wound up a bit to get going. Once you do get it there though it wants to dislocate your shoulders.
Other bikes are more touchy/twitchy. Shorter/lighter bikes with more low end grunt. My Speed Triple is a bike I would never put one of those throttle rockers on as I am sure I'd kill myself at some point by accidentally sitting my hand down on it wrong. I've ridden most of my life and have still accidentally wheelied that bike away from stop signs. Usually its on purpose but the accidental ones are the ones that get your attention.

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XX - Fast as fuck. Very stable at speed and docile until you wind it out. Feels heavy and I can see a smaller or new rider just dropping it while maneuvering/parking etc. Does not like stop and go traffic. Wants to go 100mph all the time.
Tiger 1050 has the exact same motor as S3 but different ECU/tuning and size. Much more docile. Very usable power. Super tall like any ADV bike. Shorter guys would struggle with it. Probably my favorite day to day IE commuting.
Speed Triple - Very touchy/light-switch first gear. Would be easy for a new rider to launch over the tree tops. Super small and light and easy to man handle. Most fun bike I've ever ridden. Practically useless for long trips.
In the background is the Ninja 650. Super light weight and easy to handle. Nice usable power. Fantastic bike for learning but enough power and good handling to be fun for anyone.

Pretty sure you know everything there is to know, but the point of most of the comments is that 700 miles is pretty early in the learning curve to step up to a 1000cc sportbike.  We were not all blessed with your immense knowledge of torque development over rpm ranges and the road and tire interface awareness of a supercomputer.  As well most of us don't ride around in c mode like somebody's grandmother.  "Skilled" is not consistent with 700 miles.  And yes, without traction control a powerful bike can step out enough to get the seat cover stuck in your ass crack without trying too much.