[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mormons - explain this to me (Page 9 of 11)
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Thanks for proving my point. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? Quoted:
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Again, you prove Brother Jake's point by trying to insult and deride those who do not toe your church's line. The basic facts are the issue, both with the BoM, how it contradicts the Bible, how it is strikingly similar to books of Joe Smith's time and location, and the lack of credible evidence for it's claims archaeologically and historically, as well as a lack of a source text. Here's the proof. There is plenty of 'proof' that the Bible contradicts itself if you'd like to go down that path. I wouldn't as I believe the Bible (KJV) to be the word of God, just not your interpretation of it, or your interpretation of the supposed contradictions. The real 'proof' is found in the evidence of things not seen or the testimony of the Holy Ghost not interpretation. I have received that witness from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon. What is the word of some biased guy who's never read the Book of Mormon compared to that? The book itself even suggests that course: Moroni 10:4-5 "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." If you are undertaking to 'prove' your interpretation of the Bible to be correct you are on a fools errand as there is no truth in man dictating to God the meaning of the words of His prophets. The Holy Ghost in part was sent to testify of truth. Yet, none of your anti-Mormon retoric thus far has suggested an appeal through humble study and prayer to ask for God for that knowledge. This is not surprising to me as seeking answers from the Holy Ghost does not seem to be part of your knowledge base; probably because you refuse to accept the further words of God that He has given, just like Jewish people don't accept the New Testament. I will continue to try and pay close attention to the Holy Ghost. You may continue to pay attention to 'Bro. Jake' if you think it's best but don't be surprised if I or other Mormons don't take his words as 'gospel'. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. Have you humbly read the Book of Mormon with a heart that is open to belief and then humbly and with faith prayed to receive wisdom from God? Let us not kid ourselves that you have done that. Yet that is the way to gain spiritual knowledge. You would understand this if you accepted that God did not stop speaking after the Bible. I am not talking about one obscure experience. I'm talking about witness after witness after witness from the Holy Ghost. Only you can be the judge of whether you have put yourself in a position to be taught spiritually of the Lord. But as you say, you may not know your own heart. You have not learned to gain spiritual knowledge either because it seems clear by what you've written that you are only looking to your own wisdom and the wisdom of men to interpret scripture. Had you a regimen of seeking to understand the scriptures by the Holy Spirit your responses would be very different, but as nearly as I can tell this is not something you practice in your faith. I hope you can see that the words of men compared to the witness of the Holy Ghost are meaningless to me. If you do ever actually read the Book of Mormon with an open heart, and pray about it humbly believing that the Lord can teach you, and you receive a witness that is not true, then you will be in the extreme minority's of people who do that and still feel it is fraudulent, but I wish you the best as God clearly would have a different path for you than He had for me. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? Because you believe God once talked to man but can't anymore. Mormons believe he still does. |
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If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Quoted:
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By "do your own thing," do you mean "become a god?" Yup. I find the idea that we humans are capable of "learning enough" to be an equal to God to be heretical and blasphemous. It suggests that the only difference between Him and us is knowledge, which is totally contradicted by the bible. If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. We are created beings and moral agents - not part of the Godhead. Any more than the Angels are. |
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The same could be said of you. Quoted:
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But you don't know the truth. All you know is your interpretation. The same could be said of you. Not so. All I know is what I've been taught of the Lord to know. You can make the argument that I am fooled of the devil if you wish, or even crazy, but my and many others experiences with the witness of the Holy Ghost have convinced me otherwise. |
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No. You either wear them or you don't. Quoted:
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My wife doesn't seem to mind them. They are made out of several different materials so you can get hot weather types or even cold weather materials. Some of the get-ups Marie Osmond wore don't seem to be able to hide that. Are there "reduced footprint" versions for sports and entertainment? No. You either wear them or you don't. while we are admonished to wear them at all times, there are times you don't have to. Work, or sports costumes fall under that. When I played football I did not wear the garment under my pads. Osmond may have worn stage costumes which would not work with the garment. |
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And I'll call you on it using Christ's own words in Mark 9 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part. 41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Name one thing that Mormons do that contradict Christ's teachings. They do all they can to follow Christ's teachings. They have one of the largest networks in the nation to help the poor and needy. They teach the importance of families, and being self sufficient. They do miracles in Christ's name. Quoted:
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And I'll call you on it using Christ's own words in Mark 9 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part. 41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Name one thing that Mormons do that contradict Christ's teachings. They do all they can to follow Christ's teachings. They have one of the largest networks in the nation to help the poor and needy. They teach the importance of families, and being self sufficient. They do miracles in Christ's name. Polygamy |
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Bottom line is that, speaking for myself, I don't want people deceived, and becoming one of the spiritually abused I read about on r/exmormon. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Quoted:
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. |
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And I'll call you on it using Christ's own words in Mark 9 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part. 41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Name one thing that Mormons do that contradict Christ's teachings. They do all they can to follow Christ's teachings. They have one of the largest networks in the nation to help the poor and needy. They teach the importance of families, and being self sufficient. They do miracles in Christ's name. Polygamy Mormons don't practice polygamy. |
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If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Quoted:
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By "do your own thing," do you mean "become a god?" Yup. I find the idea that we humans are capable of "learning enough" to be an equal to God to be heretical and blasphemous. It suggests that the only difference between Him and us is knowledge, which is totally contradicted by the bible. If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. and the idea we couldn't progress eternally, would be terribly depressing. It also jibes with my own feelings as a father. As God is our Father, I sense he wants us to be like Him, learn His lessons and live as He would have us. He wants to to be just like Him. as I do with my own children, I want them to be better than I am, I hope they learn everything I have to teach and more. If we are created in God's image, and we are to live eternally as families, only two things are possible: at one point we will be fixed in time, neither learning nor growing, or building the eternal Gospel. Or we'll continue to progress till we are like Our Father. As our older Brother Jesus was in many ways. A separate person but with the power of Life over Death, Godlike powers from the Son of God. I'd be sad if I knew at some point I'd be stuck and could no longer progress. |
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Quoted: If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. |
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Sorry, Tubashot. We can be "internet friends", but we are definitely not "Christian brothers". NO Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christians. Not a single one. That is because you teach a false gospel, which Jesus commands us to contend against. Believe as you please, but if you or others post false statements such as, "I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings.", I will call you on it every time. And in the mean while, I will be praying that you finally see the Truth of the True Gospel of Jesus and reject the false gospel of Mormonism. I am honestly praying for you and others. Quoted:
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 'Contend for' the faith. Not contend against other faiths. Painless, I believe Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the world. That there is no other name given whereby men are saved. I have experienced His redeeming grace more times than I can count. I also believe that the gospel that was practiced in the early church needed to be restored to the Earth. That we indeed practice the very gospel that was once delivered unto the saints. It's why we're called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have seen you on many occasions here contending for Christ and faith in general with the atheists here in GD. We've argued on the same side several times in those discussions. Why on earth are we wasting time here tearing down the faith of others? Contend for your faith. I will contend for mine. I hope we can find common ground to contend for Christ together with those who do not have faith yet. Sorry, Tubashot. We can be "internet friends", but we are definitely not "Christian brothers". NO Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christians. Not a single one. That is because you teach a false gospel, which Jesus commands us to contend against. Believe as you please, but if you or others post false statements such as, "I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings.", I will call you on it every time. And in the mean while, I will be praying that you finally see the Truth of the True Gospel of Jesus and reject the false gospel of Mormonism. I am honestly praying for you and others. OPainless. Who gets to define "Christianity"? Who's the arbitrator of who believes in Christ? Isn't that ultimately for the person or the Church themselves? What is "Christianity"? is it only Christianity if it's YOUR version of Christianity? |
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Mormons don't practice polygamy. Quoted:
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And I'll call you on it using Christ's own words in Mark 9 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part. 41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Name one thing that Mormons do that contradict Christ's teachings. They do all they can to follow Christ's teachings. They have one of the largest networks in the nation to help the poor and needy. They teach the importance of families, and being self sufficient. They do miracles in Christ's name. Polygamy Mormons don't practice polygamy. Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? |
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Thanks for proving my point. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? Quoted:
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Again, you prove Brother Jake's point by trying to insult and deride those who do not toe your church's line. The basic facts are the issue, both with the BoM, how it contradicts the Bible, how it is strikingly similar to books of Joe Smith's time and location, and the lack of credible evidence for it's claims archaeologically and historically, as well as a lack of a source text. Here's the proof. There is plenty of 'proof' that the Bible contradicts itself if you'd like to go down that path. I wouldn't as I believe the Bible (KJV) to be the word of God, just not your interpretation of it, or your interpretation of the supposed contradictions. The real 'proof' is found in the evidence of things not seen or the testimony of the Holy Ghost not interpretation. I have received that witness from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon. What is the word of some biased guy who's never read the Book of Mormon compared to that? The book itself even suggests that course: Moroni 10:4-5 "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." If you are undertaking to 'prove' your interpretation of the Bible to be correct you are on a fools errand as there is no truth in man dictating to God the meaning of the words of His prophets. The Holy Ghost in part was sent to testify of truth. Yet, none of your anti-Mormon retoric thus far has suggested an appeal through humble study and prayer to ask for God for that knowledge. This is not surprising to me as seeking answers from the Holy Ghost does not seem to be part of your knowledge base; probably because you refuse to accept the further words of God that He has given, just like Jewish people don't accept the New Testament. I will continue to try and pay close attention to the Holy Ghost. You may continue to pay attention to 'Bro. Jake' if you think it's best but don't be surprised if I or other Mormons don't take his words as 'gospel'. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. Have you humbly read the Book of Mormon with a heart that is open to belief and then humbly and with faith prayed to receive wisdom from God? Let us not kid ourselves that you have done that. Yet that is the way to gain spiritual knowledge. You would understand this if you accepted that God did not stop speaking after the Bible. I am not talking about one obscure experience. I'm talking about witness after witness after witness from the Holy Ghost. Only you can be the judge of whether you have put yourself in a position to be taught spiritually of the Lord. But as you say, you may not know your own heart. You have not learned to gain spiritual knowledge either because it seems clear by what you've written that you are only looking to your own wisdom and the wisdom of men to interpret scripture. Had you a regimen of seeking to understand the scriptures by the Holy Spirit your responses would be very different, but as nearly as I can tell this is not something you practice in your faith. I hope you can see that the words of men compared to the witness of the Holy Ghost are meaningless to me. If you do ever actually read the Book of Mormon with an open heart, and pray about it humbly believing that the Lord can teach you, and you receive a witness that is not true, then you will be in the extreme minority's of people who do that and still feel it is fraudulent, but I wish you the best as God clearly would have a different path for you than He had for me. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? You mean the point where I clearly showed that you get your notion of what the Bible says by yours and other men's interpretation, instead of seeking for answers from God? You're welcome. As to your other question ironically the answer is the same. You believe God stopped speaking after the Bible. I believe He still speaks through prophets. But when they speak they also encourage us to seek for a witness from the Holy Spirit that what they're saying is truth. The doctrine that man can become like out Father in heaven is found in the Bible the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. What is important for you to understand is that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price (the other books in the LDS canon) clarify and confirm doctrine found in the Bible. In Matthew it says 'be ye therefor perfect like your Father who is in Heaven is perfect', or when Jesus says 'I can do nothing but what I see the Father do', these are doctrines that are aided by more information from our Father in Heaven. That has been given, just like in times of old, to modern day prophets. Here is an excellent article on precisely what you're asking about: https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng |
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Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. Quoted:
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If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. What, That we are created in God's image? That we are told to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is? That we are told we can be joint-heirs with Christ? :16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. So what is it we inherit from God? Money? A house? Cars? We can be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all God hath. God's glory, power and knowledge. Mormon's could care less what others think. We follow the Christ of the Bible and are fine with that. I guess if you feel a label of "Christian' is so important, fine. We try to have our lives show our Christianity, not a simple label. |
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Quoted: Because you believe God once talked to man but can't anymore. Mormons believe he still does. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. Have you humbly read the Book of Mormon with a heart that is open to belief and then humbly and with faith prayed to receive wisdom from God? Let us not kid ourselves that you have done that. Yet that is the way to gain spiritual knowledge. You would understand this if you accepted that God did not stop speaking after the Bible. I am not talking about one obscure experience. I'm talking about witness after witness after witness from the Holy Ghost. Only you can be the judge of whether you have put yourself in a position to be taught spiritually of the Lord. But as you say, you may not know your own heart. You have not learned to gain spiritual knowledge either because it seems clear by what you've written that you are only looking to your own wisdom and the wisdom of men to interpret scripture. Had you a regimen of seeking to understand the scriptures by the Holy Spirit your responses would be very different, but as nearly as I can tell this is not something you practice in your faith. I hope you can see that the words of men compared to the witness of the Holy Ghost are meaningless to me. If you do ever actually read the Book of Mormon with an open heart, and pray about it humbly believing that the Lord can teach you, and you receive a witness that is not true, then you will be in the extreme minority's of people who do that and still feel it is fraudulent, but I wish you the best as God clearly would have a different path for you than He had for me. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? Because you believe God once talked to man but can't anymore. Mormons believe he still does. Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." |
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Quoted: What, That we are created in God's image? That we are told to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is? That we are told we can be joint-heirs with Christ? :16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. So what is it we inherit from God? Money? A house? Cars? We can be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all God hath. God's glory, power and knowledge. Mormon's could care less what others think. We follow the Christ of the Bible and are fine with that. I guess if you feel a label of "Christian' is so important, fine. We try to have our lives show our Christianity, not a simple label. Quoted: Quoted: Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. What, That we are created in God's image? That we are told to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is? That we are told we can be joint-heirs with Christ? :16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. So what is it we inherit from God? Money? A house? Cars? We can be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all God hath. God's glory, power and knowledge. Mormon's could care less what others think. We follow the Christ of the Bible and are fine with that. I guess if you feel a label of "Christian' is so important, fine. We try to have our lives show our Christianity, not a simple label. You are deliberately obfuscating the issue and know what I'm talking about. |
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Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? Quoted:
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Mormons don't practice polygamy. Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? No, none do. If one tries, they are immediately excommunicated. The Lord's prophets in the Old Testament practiced polygamy. Why did God allow that? |
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Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. Quoted:
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If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. I have to tell you, and this is just my opinion, I am totally fine with that. I do not want to be lumped in with mainstream Christianity. Yet Christ is my redeemer. Call me what you will. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. Rather Orwellian response there, insulting (again proving Brother Jake's point) and rather disingenuous. You want to "help" them get more indoctrinated into a religious institution, demand they meet standards of attendance, tithing, and then train them to place personal expectations on their future spouses. That's textbook spiritual abuse and cult-mentality. Especially when it's done to young adults that just came home from being high-pressure sales reps for the church in the belief that they can earn enough "good points" for a Temple Recommend:  BTW you are trying to appeal to popularity while downplaying Catholics that number far more, so you've really undermined your own logic in the very same sentence. ETA: that really undermines the previous outrage that we "biblethumpers" are the ones that are unnecessarily contentious. |
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Quoted: Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. Quoted: Quoted: If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. |
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You are deliberately obfuscating the issue and know what I'm talking about. Quoted:
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Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. What, That we are created in God's image? That we are told to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is? That we are told we can be joint-heirs with Christ? :16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. So what is it we inherit from God? Money? A house? Cars? We can be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all God hath. God's glory, power and knowledge. Mormon's could care less what others think. We follow the Christ of the Bible and are fine with that. I guess if you feel a label of "Christian' is so important, fine. We try to have our lives show our Christianity, not a simple label. You are deliberately obfuscating the issue and know what I'm talking about. I provided scriptural support for Mormon doctrine you say has none, and I made it more confusing for you? Sorry |
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Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? Quoted:
Quoted:[/span
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Name one thing that Mormons do that contradict Christ's teachings. They do all they can to follow Christ's teachings. They have one of the largest networks in the nation to help the poor and needy. They teach the importance of families, and being self sufficient. They do miracles in Christ's name. Mormons don't practice polygamy. Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? Why would they repute Abraham, Isaac, David? You have to remember we believe that God still speaks to prophets. In the Book of Mormon some of the early Nephites had begun to take on wives and concubines justifying the practice because of those that did in the Old Testament. They were rebuked by Jacob the prophet of their time and told 'when I the Lord will raise up seed unto myself I will command my people( to practice polygamy) otherwise ye have no commandment. Mormons stopped practicing polygamy because the prophet at the time received a revelation to do so. That revelation was likely sought in part to solve many challenges the Saints were dealing with including statehood. Should Abraham burn in hell because he had more than one wife? Or is he in Heaven because He was obedient to the will of the Lord? |
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I will call you a Mormon. 
Fine folks that sadly follow a false Gospel. Quoted:
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Call me what you will. I will call you a Mormon.
Fine folks that sadly follow a false Gospel. I'll take it...the Mormon part I mean.
ETA: Or, our actual name works too. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Fun fact! 185 years ago when the church was founded we were called the Church of Jesus Christ. The Latter Day Saints was added to differentiate us from the original saints from Christ's time. |
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Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. Rather Orwellian response there, insulting (again proving Brother Jake's point) and rather disingenuous. You want to "help" them get more indoctrinated into a religious institution, demand they meet standards of attendance, tithing, and then train them to place personal expectations on their future spouses. That's textbook spiritual abuse and cult-mentality. Especially when it's done to young adults that just came home from being high-pressure sales reps for the church in the belief that they can earn enough "good points" for a Temple Recommend:  https://youtu.be/mDBHUNrUl34
BTW you are trying to appeal to popularity while downplaying Catholics that number far more, so you've really undermined your own logic in the very same sentence. ETA: that really undermines the previous outrage that we "biblethumpers" are the ones that are unnecessarily contentious. Quoted:
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I see you are proving yourself not a true Christian by attacking and belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Okay, I'm going to have to call you on that one. Jesus NEVER said that we were not to "belittling those of other faiths in contradiction to Christ's teachings". Quite the contrary, He said that there is only "One way". Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. Rather Orwellian response there, insulting (again proving Brother Jake's point) and rather disingenuous. You want to "help" them get more indoctrinated into a religious institution, demand they meet standards of attendance, tithing, and then train them to place personal expectations on their future spouses. That's textbook spiritual abuse and cult-mentality. Especially when it's done to young adults that just came home from being high-pressure sales reps for the church in the belief that they can earn enough "good points" for a Temple Recommend: https://youtu.be/mDBHUNrUl34
BTW you are trying to appeal to popularity while downplaying Catholics that number far more, so you've really undermined your own logic in the very same sentence. ETA: that really undermines the previous outrage that we "biblethumpers" are the ones that are unnecessarily contentious. LOL. brother Jake again huh? You make it sound like the Church is making them do something they don't want to do. If they wanted to leave or thought the church was too controlling, they would have done it long before that point. You keep trying to push the idea that Mormon's do things because they expect a reward. That is probably your greatest lie told. We do the things we do: serve missions, pay tithing, help others, etc., simply because we Love God, and are trying our best to follow Christ's words in the Bible: "If ye love me, keep my commandments". I know maybe you only do things for pay, but until you get in your mind, that some people will actually obey commandments simply out of a love for God, you will never grasp the truth. So are you saying that there are no ex-Catholics. That all of them are happy? I guess that would contradict the decline of Catholic membership in the US. While the LDS church is one of the fastest growing in membership. |
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<Meh. Forget it.> I was simply trying to offer Biblical support where you say none existed. The fact you don't believe Mormons are Christian, is because of your interpretation. Who decided what a Christian is? Mormon gospel at its basic, is that we all sin on this earth, and that if we want to return to God's presence, only through the grace of Christ are we able to do that. He died on the cross to atone for all mankind, to make it possible for them to return to the father if they accept him. Everything else in Mormon doctrine is secondary to that. Do you disagree at all with that description of the gospel, or is your view different? |
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Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Quoted:
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So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. Have you humbly read the Book of Mormon with a heart that is open to belief and then humbly and with faith prayed to receive wisdom from God? Let us not kid ourselves that you have done that. Yet that is the way to gain spiritual knowledge. You would understand this if you accepted that God did not stop speaking after the Bible. I am not talking about one obscure experience. I'm talking about witness after witness after witness from the Holy Ghost. Only you can be the judge of whether you have put yourself in a position to be taught spiritually of the Lord. But as you say, you may not know your own heart. You have not learned to gain spiritual knowledge either because it seems clear by what you've written that you are only looking to your own wisdom and the wisdom of men to interpret scripture. Had you a regimen of seeking to understand the scriptures by the Holy Spirit your responses would be very different, but as nearly as I can tell this is not something you practice in your faith. I hope you can see that the words of men compared to the witness of the Holy Ghost are meaningless to me. If you do ever actually read the Book of Mormon with an open heart, and pray about it humbly believing that the Lord can teach you, and you receive a witness that is not true, then you will be in the extreme minority's of people who do that and still feel it is fraudulent, but I wish you the best as God clearly would have a different path for you than He had for me. Now please explain why the LDS teaches doctrine not found in the Bible or the BoM, such as men becoming Gods, or that God was once a man? Because you believe God once talked to man but can't anymore. Mormons believe he still does. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? |
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Quoted: I provided scriptural support for Mormon doctrine you say has none, and I made it more confusing for you? Sorry Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. What, That we are created in God's image? That we are told to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is? That we are told we can be joint-heirs with Christ? :16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. So what is it we inherit from God? Money? A house? Cars? We can be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all God hath. God's glory, power and knowledge. Mormon's could care less what others think. We follow the Christ of the Bible and are fine with that. I guess if you feel a label of "Christian' is so important, fine. We try to have our lives show our Christianity, not a simple label. You are deliberately obfuscating the issue and know what I'm talking about. I provided scriptural support for Mormon doctrine you say has none, and I made it more confusing for you? Sorry Your reply didn't address that. Serious question - do you believe that any parts of the bible support that concept? |
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Only if one has a concept of God that is radically different from the ordinary Judeo-Christian concept of God. How do you square the proposition in your post with, say, Jeremiah 10:6? ETA: Not a gotcha question or even an argument, I'm genuinely curious. Quoted:
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If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Only if one has a concept of God that is radically different from the ordinary Judeo-Christian concept of God. How do you square the proposition in your post with, say, Jeremiah 10:6? ETA: Not a gotcha question or even an argument, I'm genuinely curious. As far as we are concerned, God our Father is the only one we are interacting with, and will always be God our Father. How do you square your position with Deuteronomy 14:1 Psalms 86:2 Acts 17:29 Hebrews 12:9 As far as progression, how do you square with Romans 8:16-17 (along with Matthew 5:48, John 10:34, Galations 4:7, and Revelation 3:21) |
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No, none do. If one tries, they are immediately excommunicated. The Lord's prophets in the Old Testament practiced polygamy. Why did God allow that? Quoted:
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Mormons don't practice polygamy. Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? No, none do. If one tries, they are immediately excommunicated. The Lord's prophets in the Old Testament practiced polygamy. Why did God allow that? God never commanded it. They did that on their own. It was sin, pure and simple. As evidenced by the fact that polygamy brought problems into every family that practiced it. |
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Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. Quoted:
Quoted:
If we are progeny of our Heavenly Father, then the idea of the capacity to progress and become as He is becomes a perfectly rational one. Therein lies the crux of the problem. The LDS view of God and the view of Christianity are radically at odds with one another, so much so that one cannot consider LDS to be a "type" of Christianity, but a completely independent religion which stands on its own. Interesting, because the LDS view is perfectly in accordance with the Biblical verses I just mentioned in my post to BushBoar. If you are wondering why our views aren't a reflection of the Catholic Church's or the denominations that branched off from it, well, that is because of what we refer to as the apostasy. If there was no apostasy, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong. If there was an apostasy, as we LDS attest, then there was a need for a restoration. |
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I was simply trying to offer Biblical support where you say none existed. The fact you don't believe Mormons are Christian, is because of your interpretation. Who decided what a Christian is? Mormon gospel at its basic, is that we all sin on this earth, and that if we want to return to God's presence, only through the grace of Christ are we able to do that. He died on the cross to atone for all mankind, to make it possible for them to return to the father if they accept him. Everything else in Mormon doctrine is secondary to that. Do you disagree at all with that description of the gospel, or is your view different? Quoted:
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<Meh. Forget it.> I was simply trying to offer Biblical support where you say none existed. The fact you don't believe Mormons are Christian, is because of your interpretation. Who decided what a Christian is? Mormon gospel at its basic, is that we all sin on this earth, and that if we want to return to God's presence, only through the grace of Christ are we able to do that. He died on the cross to atone for all mankind, to make it possible for them to return to the father if they accept him. Everything else in Mormon doctrine is secondary to that. Do you disagree at all with that description of the gospel, or is your view different? In Exodus, the people got nervous when Moses didn't come down from the mountain so they made an idol and worshiped it. They called that idol Yahwey, Gods name. They said the idol did the things that God did and worshiped it in the way God commanded the people to worship him. The end result was that God killed a ton of them for false worship. They used Gods words, but gave those words their own definition. Mormons do the same thing. They talk about God and Jesus and repentance and everything else - but they define those terms in ways radically different from the Bible and Christianity from the very beginning. If that's what you want to do, knock yourself out. Just don't kid yourself about what you're doing. |
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Quoted: LOL. brother Jake again huh? You make it sound like the Church is making them do something they don't want to do. If they wanted to leave or thought the church was too controlling, they would have done it long before that point. You keep trying to push the idea that Mormon's do things because they expect a reward. That is probably your greatest lie told. We do the things we do: serve missions, pay tithing, help others, etc., simply because we Love God, and are trying our best to follow Christ's words in the Bible: "If ye love me, keep my commandments". I know maybe you only do things for pay, but until you get in your mind, that some people will actually obey commandments simply out of a love for God, you will never grasp the truth. So are you saying that there are no ex-Catholics. That all of them are happy? I guess that would contradict the decline of Catholic membership in the US. While the LDS church is one of the fastest growing in membership. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bottom line is that, speaking for myself, I don't want people deceived, and becoming one of the spiritually abused I read about on r/exmormon. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. Rather Orwellian response there, insulting (again proving Brother Jake's point) and rather disingenuous. You want to "help" them get more indoctrinated into a religious institution, demand they meet standards of attendance, tithing, and then train them to place personal expectations on their future spouses. That's textbook spiritual abuse and cult-mentality. Especially when it's done to young adults that just came home from being high-pressure sales reps for the church in the belief that they can earn enough "good points" for a Temple Recommend: https://youtu.be/mDBHUNrUl34BTW you are trying to appeal to popularity while downplaying Catholics that number far more, so you've really undermined your own logic in the very same sentence. ETA: that really undermines the previous outrage that we "biblethumpers" are the ones that are unnecessarily contentious. LOL. brother Jake again huh? You make it sound like the Church is making them do something they don't want to do. If they wanted to leave or thought the church was too controlling, they would have done it long before that point. You keep trying to push the idea that Mormon's do things because they expect a reward. That is probably your greatest lie told. We do the things we do: serve missions, pay tithing, help others, etc., simply because we Love God, and are trying our best to follow Christ's words in the Bible: "If ye love me, keep my commandments". I know maybe you only do things for pay, but until you get in your mind, that some people will actually obey commandments simply out of a love for God, you will never grasp the truth. So are you saying that there are no ex-Catholics. That all of them are happy? I guess that would contradict the decline of Catholic membership in the US. While the LDS church is one of the fastest growing in membership. And let's pretend I actually know what the Mormon path to salvation actually is, because we've discussed this several times before.   |
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Quoted: Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? Quoted: Quoted: Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? |
| I really don't get peoples desire to bash each other. If someone told me I had to pick a religious group to say, be my neighbors and interact with all the time I wouldn't hesitate and say mormons. Do I agree with what they believe in? No. The kind of person it makes though is hard to argue with and generally they are very, very good people. |
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God never commanded it. They did that on their own. It was sin, pure and simple. As evidenced by the fact that polygamy brought problems into every family that practiced it. Quoted:
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Mormons don't practice polygamy. Some do. Their founders did. They only stopped to get statehood for Utah. Has the LDS Church ever repudiated polygamy on Biblical principles, and if so, how did they reconcile the conduct of Smith and Young with that? No, none do. If one tries, they are immediately excommunicated. The Lord's prophets in the Old Testament practiced polygamy. Why did God allow that? God never commanded it. They did that on their own. It was sin, pure and simple. As evidenced by the fact that polygamy brought problems into every family that practiced it. So you're actually claiming that God simply turned a blind eye to his prophets living in sin, and cared less if they did so? I guess 2 Samuel 12 says differently: 8 and I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. The Lord gave David the wives. It was only after committing adultery that it became a "problem".. |
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Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? Quoted:
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Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? It's funny, God told his prophets that he didn't curse black people (Curse of Ham) at the same time that society at large was getting cool with black people. |
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In Exodus, the people got nervous when Moses didn't come down from the mountain so they made an idol and worshiped it. They called that idol Yahwey, Gods name. They said the idol did the things that God did and worshiped it in the way God commanded the people to worship him. The end result was that God killed a ton of them for false worship. They used Gods words, but gave those words their own definition. Mormons do the same thing. They talk about God and Jesus and repentance and everything else - but they define those terms in ways radically different from the Bible and Christianity from the very beginning. If that's what you want to do, knock yourself out. Just don't kid yourself about what you're doing. Quoted:
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<Meh. Forget it.> I was simply trying to offer Biblical support where you say none existed. The fact you don't believe Mormons are Christian, is because of your interpretation. Who decided what a Christian is? Mormon gospel at its basic, is that we all sin on this earth, and that if we want to return to God's presence, only through the grace of Christ are we able to do that. He died on the cross to atone for all mankind, to make it possible for them to return to the father if they accept him. Everything else in Mormon doctrine is secondary to that. Do you disagree at all with that description of the gospel, or is your view different? In Exodus, the people got nervous when Moses didn't come down from the mountain so they made an idol and worshiped it. They called that idol Yahwey, Gods name. They said the idol did the things that God did and worshiped it in the way God commanded the people to worship him. The end result was that God killed a ton of them for false worship. They used Gods words, but gave those words their own definition. Mormons do the same thing. They talk about God and Jesus and repentance and everything else - but they define those terms in ways radically different from the Bible and Christianity from the very beginning. If that's what you want to do, knock yourself out. Just don't kid yourself about what you're doing. sure you don't have it backwards? The Nicene creed says you've changed. |
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Quoted: I really don't get peoples desire to bash each other. If someone told me I had to pick a religious group to say, be my neighbors and interact with all the time I wouldn't hesitate and say mormons. Do I agree with what they believe in? No. The kind of person it makes though is hard to argue with and generally they are very, very good people. There are no good people. The difference between me and them is that I trust in Christ to save me, and they think they be as good as He is. |
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Quoted: It's funny, God told his prophets that he didn't curse black people at the same time that society at large was getting cool with black people. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? It's funny, God told his prophets that he didn't curse black people at the same time that society at large was getting cool with black people. |
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So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. Quoted:
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There is plenty of 'proof' that the Bible contradicts itself if you'd like to go down that path. I wouldn't as I believe the Bible (KJV) to be the word of God, just not your interpretation of it, or your interpretation of the supposed contradictions. The real 'proof' is found in the evidence of things not seen or the testimony of the Holy Ghost not interpretation. I have received that witness from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon. What is the word of some biased guy who's never read the Book of Mormon compared to that? The book itself even suggests that course: Moroni 10:4-5 "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." If you are undertaking to 'prove' your interpretation of the Bible to be correct you are on a fools errand as there is no truth in man dictating to God the meaning of the words of His prophets. The Holy Ghost in part was sent to testify of truth. Yet, none of your anti-Mormon retoric thus far has suggested an appeal through humble study and prayer to ask for God for that knowledge. This is not surprising to me as seeking answers from the Holy Ghost does not seem to be part of your knowledge base; probably because you refuse to accept the further words of God that He has given, just like Jewish people don't accept the New Testament. I will continue to try and pay close attention to the Holy Ghost. You may continue to pay attention to 'Bro. Jake' if you think it's best but don't be surprised if I or other Mormons don't take his words as 'gospel'. So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. ITT: Why faith is not a good way to truth. Other religions/people use faith and have their transcendental experiences which they attribute to their God(s), which totally contradicts other people's God(s). Granted, one (or none) could be right, but the methodology (faith) is the same and comes to mutually contradictory conclusions. |
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And get ostracized and shunned by their friends and family. You know the more excuses you make the more you show how accurate Brother Jake's 'persona' in those videos is. Interesting that you don't deny the specifics but attack him personally. And let's pretend I actually know what the Mormon path to salvation actually is, because we've discussed this several times before. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yLk8K4TTrVM/ULVHVc2V8XI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/_2vlb9gJcH4/s1600/TheImpossibleGospelOfMormonism+v08.png http://blog.mrm.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/EternalLifeDiagram-791x1024.jpg Quoted:
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Bottom line is that, speaking for myself, I don't want people deceived, and becoming one of the spiritually abused I read about on r/exmormon. Like how a LDS bishop demands this contract to be signed and performed by young men and women: http://i.imgur.com/ZgQQipv.png http://i.imgur.com/8u33UnI.png http://i.imgur.com/IVhBPV8.png http://i.imgur.com/EsP6vl9.png Yes they do end-up bitter; and for good, understandable reasons. Oh, they are so abused by having people lend support to help them follow Christ. We wouldn't want to hurt their feels now, would we. Where does the bishop "demand" that they sign it? Since you have never served a mission, you don't know how beneficial something like this is to a missionary coming home. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Show one thing on there that opposes a Christ like lifestyle. Are you saying that they should not do those things and just go live it up instead? Deceived? LOL Seeing how there is almost 16 million members. They are more likely to share their experience of joy and happiness on mormonconverts.com then the relatively few on r/exmormon. Did you even look at the convert website? Many stories of former baptists,born again Christians, Catholics, and many others that found the truth. Rather Orwellian response there, insulting (again proving Brother Jake's point) and rather disingenuous. You want to "help" them get more indoctrinated into a religious institution, demand they meet standards of attendance, tithing, and then train them to place personal expectations on their future spouses. That's textbook spiritual abuse and cult-mentality. Especially when it's done to young adults that just came home from being high-pressure sales reps for the church in the belief that they can earn enough "good points" for a Temple Recommend: https://youtu.be/mDBHUNrUl34
BTW you are trying to appeal to popularity while downplaying Catholics that number far more, so you've really undermined your own logic in the very same sentence. ETA: that really undermines the previous outrage that we "biblethumpers" are the ones that are unnecessarily contentious. LOL. brother Jake again huh? You make it sound like the Church is making them do something they don't want to do. If they wanted to leave or thought the church was too controlling, they would have done it long before that point. You keep trying to push the idea that Mormon's do things because they expect a reward. That is probably your greatest lie told. We do the things we do: serve missions, pay tithing, help others, etc., simply because we Love God, and are trying our best to follow Christ's words in the Bible: "If ye love me, keep my commandments". I know maybe you only do things for pay, but until you get in your mind, that some people will actually obey commandments simply out of a love for God, you will never grasp the truth. So are you saying that there are no ex-Catholics. That all of them are happy? I guess that would contradict the decline of Catholic membership in the US. While the LDS church is one of the fastest growing in membership. And get ostracized and shunned by their friends and family. You know the more excuses you make the more you show how accurate Brother Jake's 'persona' in those videos is. Interesting that you don't deny the specifics but attack him personally. And let's pretend I actually know what the Mormon path to salvation actually is, because we've discussed this several times before. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yLk8K4TTrVM/ULVHVc2V8XI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/_2vlb9gJcH4/s1600/TheImpossibleGospelOfMormonism+v08.png http://blog.mrm.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/EternalLifeDiagram-791x1024.jpg The irony here is that we know in whom we must trust for our salvation: Jesus Christ. But because of your 'no works neccesary' interpretation of the gospel you take away that which builds faith unto salvation. It is when we act on principles of truth, and righteousness, when we are obedient to Gods commands that we receive the evidence of things not seen, the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and the faith in Christ that brings us salvation. As a consequence many mainstream Christian churches are struggling to retain parishioners as the parishioners are taught that nothing but a one time profession of faith in Christ is neccesary to their salvation. The evidence of things not seen is given as a gift from God to those who diligently seek Him, and strive however imperfectly to do His will. We are saved by grace after all we can do. We are not saved by anything we do do. |
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Who are you talking to? The issue here is the idea that God contradicts himself, and how LDS doctrine inherently contradicts the Bible and even it's own previous "revelations". Quoted:
Quoted:
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Actually I believe that God spoke several times to 40 different men, yet He was logically consistent. God cannot contradict Himself. BTW: Acts 17:10 "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Exactly. You believe he once talked to men but no longer can. Mormons believe he still does talk to us. That is the real Crux of this whole entire thread. Either the heavens are closed, God doesn't talk to us anymore, and we must rely on what we have in the Bible. Or The heavens are still open, God still loves us, and talks to His prophets as he did in ancient times, to reveal to us his will for us in these days. Have you ever thought that if God wanted to speak to us in these days, how he would do it? Or have you written it off as entirely impossible? It only contradicts your interpretation. |
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Quoted: ITT: Why faith is not a good way to truth. Other religions/people use faith and have their transcendental experiences which they attribute to their God(s), which totally contradicts other people's God(s). Granted, one (or none) could be right, but the methodology (faith) is the same and comes to mutually contradictory conclusions. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is plenty of 'proof' that the Bible contradicts itself if you'd like to go down that path. I wouldn't as I believe the Bible (KJV) to be the word of God, just not your interpretation of it, or your interpretation of the supposed contradictions. The real 'proof' is found in the evidence of things not seen or the testimony of the Holy Ghost not interpretation. I have received that witness from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon. What is the word of some biased guy who's never read the Book of Mormon compared to that? The book itself even suggests that course: Moroni 10:4-5 "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." If you are undertaking to 'prove' your interpretation of the Bible to be correct you are on a fools errand as there is no truth in man dictating to God the meaning of the words of His prophets. The Holy Ghost in part was sent to testify of truth. Yet, none of your anti-Mormon retoric thus far has suggested an appeal through humble study and prayer to ask for God for that knowledge. This is not surprising to me as seeking answers from the Holy Ghost does not seem to be part of your knowledge base; probably because you refuse to accept the further words of God that He has given, just like Jewish people don't accept the New Testament. I will continue to try and pay close attention to the Holy Ghost. You may continue to pay attention to 'Bro. Jake' if you think it's best but don't be surprised if I or other Mormons don't take his words as 'gospel'. So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. ITT: Why faith is not a good way to truth. Other religions/people use faith and have their transcendental experiences which they attribute to their God(s), which totally contradicts other people's God(s). Granted, one (or none) could be right, but the methodology (faith) is the same and comes to mutually contradictory conclusions. Whether or not there is or is not faith in something does not prove it true or untrue. |
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Quoted:
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. - Romans 3:23. There are no good people. The difference between me and them is that I trust in Christ to save me, and they think they be as good as He is. Quoted:
Quoted:
I really don't get peoples desire to bash each other. If someone told me I had to pick a religious group to say, be my neighbors and interact with all the time I wouldn't hesitate and say mormons. Do I agree with what they believe in? No. The kind of person it makes though is hard to argue with and generally they are very, very good people. There are no good people. The difference between me and them is that I trust in Christ to save me, and they think they be as good as He is. This is not true. I am no where near Christ and completely dependent on Him for my salvation. |
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Faith isn't the issue, it's the idea that one should look to their own flawed preconceptions as a source of truth; something atheists do also. Whether or not there is or is not faith in something does not prove it true or untrue. Quoted:
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There is plenty of 'proof' that the Bible contradicts itself if you'd like to go down that path. I wouldn't as I believe the Bible (KJV) to be the word of God, just not your interpretation of it, or your interpretation of the supposed contradictions. The real 'proof' is found in the evidence of things not seen or the testimony of the Holy Ghost not interpretation. I have received that witness from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon. What is the word of some biased guy who's never read the Book of Mormon compared to that? The book itself even suggests that course: Moroni 10:4-5 "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." If you are undertaking to 'prove' your interpretation of the Bible to be correct you are on a fools errand as there is no truth in man dictating to God the meaning of the words of His prophets. The Holy Ghost in part was sent to testify of truth. Yet, none of your anti-Mormon retoric thus far has suggested an appeal through humble study and prayer to ask for God for that knowledge. This is not surprising to me as seeking answers from the Holy Ghost does not seem to be part of your knowledge base; probably because you refuse to accept the further words of God that He has given, just like Jewish people don't accept the New Testament. I will continue to try and pay close attention to the Holy Ghost. You may continue to pay attention to 'Bro. Jake' if you think it's best but don't be surprised if I or other Mormons don't take his words as 'gospel'. So what if I do that, and I don't get the result you think I should? Because if my heart, via the Holy Spirit, says the BoM is a lie perpetuated by a 19th century convicted con-artist and adulterer. So now what? Is my heart not sincere now according to you? Is there something wrong with me now? Also, Jeremiah 17:9 shows it to be a poor test: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We are all sinful creatures, thus, our feelings on a matter cannot be trusted, because they are based on preconceived notions. That's why God gave us the Bible; yet the BoM and LDS doctrine contradict what it says. ITT: Why faith is not a good way to truth. Other religions/people use faith and have their transcendental experiences which they attribute to their God(s), which totally contradicts other people's God(s). Granted, one (or none) could be right, but the methodology (faith) is the same and comes to mutually contradictory conclusions. Whether or not there is or is not faith in something does not prove it true or untrue. LOL, surely you can see yourself in this. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mormons - explain this to me (Page 9 of 11)
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