OK guys...now here's the deal.

We have anecdotal evidence and strong statements from our fellow ARFCOMers that Glocks are blowing up.  Loyal Glock owners and fans say [bs]!

Rather than argue, I say to those of you who believe they kaboom...don't buy one...and sell those that you have.  Go buy another brand...like a P-99 or USP or 1911.

Those of you that love the Austrian pistols, stick with them...[u]BUT[/u], don't bitch if the pistols blow up on you.

Frankly, I don't see how any service auto like those cops guns should blow in ANY way simply because they were using hot ammo.

And PLEASE...don't complain about posting cop only messages.  First it sounds like a Glock fan with a bad case of sour grapes...and second, it is the RIGHT thing to do to tell us about the kabooms.

FWIW, we own several Glocks...but I don't trust them much any more.

JMHO...[>:/]

It’s a KKM Precision from Brownells, which I emphatically do [b]not[/b] recommend.

It’s described as a “match” barrel, so I guess I was warned.

Still, at this point I’ll never carry my Glock as a CCW, so I’d rather have occasional reliability problems over a KB anyway.  It also gives me the ability to shoot lead bullets without the usual worries over the Glock’s polygonal rifling.


Look at a .40 S&W empty fired from a Glock.  On the case body (not the head) near the rim, you will probably see a “smile” shaped bulge where the case was unsupported.  KB’s are apparently caused when this bulge becomes too extreme and the case gives way.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no fully supported barrels for Glock .40’s.  The aftermarket barrels might not be cut away quite so much along the feed ramp, but basically they have tighter chambers, which prevents the case from stretching so much to begin with.

Failures to go into battery – pretty obviously as a result of the tight chamber.

I haven’t used it much.  Maybe a change in ammo would help, I don’t know.

Hahahahaha!  Overblown = blown up?

What a choice of words [;)]

As far as unsupported chambers goes that is the same weakness the 1911 has,you really can't beef the shell up any because of the unsupported chamber!

But what I recall the Glock's problem is the not so round chamber, so if you try and shoot lead in it it will swell to fit the not so round shaped chamber being deformed and then trying to go down a round shaped barrel!

Maybe the hydra-shocks are soft enough(to get good expansion) that they also get deformed in the not so round chamber!

Causing just too much pressure!  KABOOM!

 Bob [:D]

that's one thing I've always wondered about that argument
neither my Colt or Springfield 1911's have  fully supported chambers, so
why would unsupported chambers in a .45acp Glock present a problem ???

now both my G19's are fully supported & the 9mm is NOT a .40S&W but in the 10+ yrs I've had my G19's not a single problem, (zero,none,nada)
 
the triggers seem crappy now compared to a HS2000/Springfield XD

I still like my Glocks though, accurate & reliable for me

As said I hear they have an oval or tapered chamber,and If you shoot lead bullets(which the owners manual clearly says is verboten)both for ruining the teflon barrel coating and forming to the chamber!

So the unsuported chamber means nothing,Its the shape of the chamber that could be the problem!

So If I had a Glock(really a good pistol) one should be careful what they feed it!

 Bob [:D]

The only difference is .45ACP is operating no where near the chamber pressures of .40 S&W.

IMHO, the Glock .40s disconnector is timed incorrectly and can allow the weapons to fire ever so slightly out of battery.  I stiffer recoils spring would do a lot too.

Here's pictures. This one is a fully supported Springfield XD chamber.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid52/p4624b4ec0a07180c6215c03769ea9c29/fc9bf092.jpg[/img]

Now, here's the unsupported Glock chamber.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p4a1d4a908292fde8a2760d1e1182e46e/fd07f80d.jpg[/img]

I regularly shoot my Thompson 10mm,auto 1911-A1 truely a 1911(unsuported chamber pistol)!

Same design as the .45 acp with MUCH higher pressures than the 40,but no problems!

So I say you can't blame it on the 40S&W round being too hot!  It has to be the oval chamber on the Glock!

 Bob [:D]

[size=5][red]I TOLD YA SO...[/red][/size=5]

Post'd just the other day that someone would blame [b]"GLOCK PISTOLS"[/b] for the destruction of 3 Glock 40s and injuries to Warren County officers...

When this happened "immediately" after opening a NEW case of Federal 40cal JHP ammo.

[size=5][blue]IT WAS THE AMMUNITION THAT CAUSED THESE KABOOMS!![/blue][/size=5]

Mike

First off I need to say that I am not a glock fan. However, I will not use this opportunity to bash them as they may not deserve it. Most law enforcment mishaps and Kb's are the fault of the departments trying to save money by using reloads. I have seen many use lead unjacketed bullets for practice which restrict the bore with build up and then put +p+ jacketed through the gun. This is a sure way to KB. Much the same way that your car will KB if you fill the tank with alcohol. Common sense would stop alot of this. 99% of all malfunctions are attributable to the shooter and the ammo. Maybe Glock is at fault,I don't know. The smart money for the reasonable and prudent man as well as the professional odds makers is on the shooter actions or the ammo being at fault. We will see in the end.

Important point – but I’m not quite ready to totally agree with you!!  [:D]

To my mind, the question is would this [b]same[/b] ammunition have also caused KB’s in other 40’s such as H&K’s, Sigs, etc.??

If it would have, certainly all the blame can be put on the ammo.  If it wouldn’t have, at least part of the blame should be put on the Glocks.

I'm sure you'll agree that any ammunition, no matter how well made, can cause problems in a poorly designed firearm.


The issue isn’t just supported vs. unsupported.  Another aspect is the size of the unsupported area.

For example, unsupported 1911 .45 chambers don’t usually cause problems.  However, every once in a while a kitchen gunsmith will polish the small barrel feedramp too much, enlarging the unsupported area, and resulting in a 1911 KB!!

Further, large chamber dimensions – which Glock’s seem to have – means that the case will expand quite a bit when the round is fired.  This stretches and weakens the case to begin with.

I continue to feel any problem with Glocks probably results from it’s unsupported chamber [b]combined[/b] with it’s large chamber dimensions.

Just my personal opinion FWIW!!

[B]EXACTLY.[/B]

It could be the ammo, but why do Glock lovers IMMEDIATELY jump to the conclusion that the guns are completely free of any fault???

I think there are a few interrelated issues that make Glocks more likely to KB.

1) Ammo, .40 seems to be prone to overpressure incidents, possible caused by too deeply seated bullets.

2) Glock/USP rifling. The rifling, with jacketed bullets, results in a better gas seal, and higher velocity. In an over-pressure incident conventional rilfing might allow more "blow by" and drop pressures. Plus there are those that ignore the warning not to use lead bullets in those barrels.

3) Heavy slide. Glocks have relatively heavy slides. So in an overpressure incident the Glock slide won't open as quickly as a lighter slide, nor will it's open speed be as effected during an overpressure incident. A lighter slide might decrease it's opening time, and increase it's opening velocity with an "extra zippy" round. When operating properly heavy slides are good, but when bad stuff happens........

4) Chamber. It is unsupported, and there is a relived area near where the extractor is. I'm sure these are for feed, extraction reliability. Again in an overpressure situation, these are weakpoints.

5) Timing. It seems that Glocks may have some timing issues.

I'm sure there are more. I would also point out that Glocks, when the KB, manage to keep the operators as safe as any pistol, because the "blast" seems to travel down the magwell, and out. Every type of pistol has KB'ed at one time or the other. Sometimes it's the individual pistol, sometimes it's a design problem, but mostly it seems to be an ammo (pressure) problem.

Use quality ammo. Don't use lead in Glocks or USP's.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-glock-kb.html

Glock isn't the only company that did this.  Most .40S&W guns are based on 9mm platforms.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Of all the KB's I've ever heard of, all had at least one if not a combination of the following issues:

1.  Lead reloads had been fired through the factory barrel.
2.  Hot loads.
3.  Dirty pistols.

1 and 3 can be easily dealt with.  If you're going to be an idiot and shoot lead loads when the manufacturer tells you not to then you're risking your health and safety.  If you have to do it then buy a replacement barrel that isn't hexagonally rifled.  And who in their right mind doesn't keep their gun clean and properly maintained?  Sadly, most cops I know don't take very good care of their duty weapons for some strange reason.  If my duty weapon could be the difference between life and death, that thing is going to be as clean as possible and lubed as appropriate.

I bought some Speer Lawman ammo at the fun show that was much too hot for .40S&W.  Defensive ammo is generally a bit hot, but the Speer Lawman stuff was downright scary, especially for FMJ rounds.  I didn't have a chronograph to test with, but comparing 165gr Speer to 165gr Winchester White Box there was a noticable difference in the recoil.  Even the guys I was shooting with noticed it and thought it was odd for FMJ ammo.  I've still got a box left, but I sure as hell won't shoot it.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

My gunsmith (a certified gunsmith, not JoeBob with a shingle hanging in front of his garage) told me years ago to stay away from Glock becuase of the unsupported receiver. He said that Glock had to reverse engineer this because of the excessive angle of the grip/magazine made it impossible to reliably feed so they undercut the receiver to the point that it was oval and did not fully support the cartridge. This also causes the spent cases to be oval and stressed excessivelu on the oval side, rendering the brass useless for reloading. The Glock manual also specifically states NOT to use bare lead slugs. This apparently causes the slug to form too tightly to the barrel upon entry and the gasses escape through the unsupported receiver, thus blowing the magazine out of the grip (if you're lucky) or blowing the gun apart if you're not lucky. IMHO, the Glock was invented as a replacement for TRAINING as it is simple and it can be handed to any idiot with the instructions of "point it and jerk the trigger". Colonel Jeff Cooper has written many times that no serious pistolier would even consider buying one. (And yes, I am a confirmed Hk snob from the first USP) I have my asbestos undies on today, so let the flames begin![flame]

I'm relativley sure HK USP's use the same type of rifling as Glock.

Also 1911A1's don't have fully supported chambers. Does your gunsmith consider those a "don't buy"?

How many 10mm Glocks have you heard of KB'ing? How many other companies made 10mm's that had VERY short service lives? Why can Glocks stand up to 10mm seemingly so much better than other handguns, but KB in .40?

As far as the "training", I think Glocks were designed to be simple, reliable, and servicable. Other handguns sometimes seem to have been designed to appease lawyers. Safety is keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction, and keeping your trigger finger under control. No gizmo on a gun can do those jobs.

Name another handgun that supplies factory parts to change the trigger pull? Or that guarantees that if you can get a bigger magazine in the same caliber, it will fit in it's smaller, same caliber, stablemate? HK USP .45 and HK USP-C .45 allow you to use the full size mags in the smaller gun?

Glocks are made up of 34 or 35 pieces depending on the model. They are mass produced drop in parts. Many parts can be switched to different size guns in the same caliber, and some aren't even caliber specific.

Make all the excuses you want, spin it however you want, but the bottom line remains the same.
The glockb's have a KB problem that is NOT RELATED ONLY TO AMMO !!!
If it was only an ammo issue, you would have similar amounts of KB's in other brands as well.
I cannot for the life of me, figure out why brand loyalty is put before your personal safety. If a weapon of mine, ANY WEAPON, was having these type of issues and was not being addressed by the manufacturer, I would get rid of it no matter how much I liked it. You have to trust your equipment and I don't trust glockb.

Yes, and there have been reports of USP .40's going Kaboom too.  Not nearly as many as Glocks, but I'd be interested to see what the numbers are in proportion to actual firearms in circulation.



Well, there is a marked difference in the design of the Glock 10mm and the .40S&W guns.  There's a definite difference in dimesions between a Glock 20 (10mm) and 22 (.40S&W), while there's virtually no difference between the 17 (9mm) and 22 except the barrel size and magazine.  Structurally they're identical.  The problem is basing their .40S&W models off their 9mm models, but as I said previously, Glock is not the only manufacturer to build .40 guns on 9mm frames.



I couldn't agree with you more.  Operator error can only be hindered somewhat by safety devices, but an inept operator can still render all built in safety devices moot.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

If you take all the first line, mass production, pistol makers, Ruger, Colt (used I know), S+W, Sig-Sauer, Beretta, Glock, HK, etc. All make reliable guns. The difference between them is more the owner's preference.

Now If you said to ME, pick a .40 cal. from that list of makers. I would scratch Glock of that list first.

There is something with the charactersitics of Glock, and the .40 cal round traits, that interacts BADLY. Neither is at fault by themselves, but together it is bad.

Then again if I asked you to pick a 10mm pistol and you picked anything besides a Glock, I'd start worrying about you.

I know you'll say 10mm and .40 are 2 different tings. my point is the basic Glock design is sound.

I also think the list of design features that I listed before make the Glocks less able to deal with an overpressure load without KB'ing. But those same features are an asset with proper ammo.  

GodBlessTexas. Again I think there are issues with the .40 cartridge. My point was Glock and HK's USP's shouldn't be used to fire lead bullets. I think the HK's have more distance between the top of the rifling and the wall of the barrel. Meaning the USP has a LITTLE extra room before lead build-up is a problem.

--------------------------------------------------

1911A1's have probably KB'ed more than any other pistol. It's beacuse they've been around longer, in great numbers. Pistols are working with a controlled "explosion". Some are bound to have problems.

I personally like Glock pistols. I wouldn't buy a .40, but I might buy a 10mm. I have 2 .45's. I like them and have put a lot of +P JHP, and regular pressure FMJ through them. No KB's. Haven't seen any locally. Then again it's 9mm and .45's using factory ammo for the most part, that I see.  

 I predict that soon the spinmiesters from the Flat Earth Society (aka Glocktalk, ect) will soon be in here to set all you slack jawed yokels straight. You will each be issued a pair of rose colored glasses. [rolleyes]


Wait! We've got a nibble already. I didn't think they'd hit a topwater lure this early in the season.

I am not a Glock fan, don't like them and don't and won't own one.  BUT, since there are so many out there, it stands to reason there would be a greater number of kabooms, without being greater in proportion than any other pistol.  If one likes them, no reason to be scared of them.  I don't care for high pressure rounds in anything, just too much extra stress.  I guess one can tell I like .45 acp, and have both 1911 and S&W types.

[url]http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=82[/url]
discussion of Glock KBs

Admitted GlockTalk member and G35/24C owner here, and witness to an actual Glock 23 kB. (Which is more than most can say.)

Some of these posts make it seem that everytime you fire a Glock in .40S&W you take your life into your own hands. Not exactly the case.  The Glock .40cal design has some "flaws" to it. The two biggest being the "unsupported" chamber and the timing bit. These flaws make the Glock more susecptible to bad ammo and or extremely hot ammo.  It isn't as strong as the 9mm Glock, IMO.  The point is, as long as you use good ammo, you won't see a problem with kBs.  Other guns may or may not digest the same ammo without problems, but with the Glock you have to understand you are operating with a smaller margin or error.

A couple of odds and ends. The kB I witnessed was with reloads. Yep, a double load. Not sure how many guns would have withstood that.  The first widespread Glock kBs were with Federal Hydra-Shock ammo that had weak case heads. Other guns functioned fine with it but like I said earlier you have a smaller margin of error with the Glock. Lead, yep you aren't supposed to use lead. However, there are many reloaders over at GT that use lead. They pay particular attention to the hardness of the lead and pay close attention to barrel leading. I wouldn't do it, personally. The timing issue was of concern to me also. I had a G19 that would operate out of battery. You could tell because the firing pin mark on the primer was at 12 o'clock. However, it never struck the primer hard enough to actually detonate the round. That gave me cause for concern and now I make sure that the recoil spring is replaced after every 5000 rounds or so(There is an easy test to test the strength of the recoil spring). I bought the gun used, Lord only knows how many rounds were fired out of it before I started having that problem. Somone posted that the recoil spring in the .40 is heavier than the 9mm. That is not the case. They both use 17# recoil springs as factory spec. Finally, I've been to Dean Spier's website. One of the kBs he credits (or at least used to credit) Glock with was very clearly an aftermarket .357SIG barrel. Hard to blame Glock for that one, but he did.  

Glad they included the ammo lot number so i can avoid that stuff. [;D]

Okay, so what about the story of them lodging a bullet in the barrel and then firing a live round into it? I would think that if it could take that w/o a kB!, then it should be able to take a hot reload every now and then...

That was HK that did that. [:D]
Never Compromise.

Add another one:

San Pablo CA Police Dept experienced damage to two Glock 22's during training, both rendered inopperable.  The slides of both locked up and the extractors "disintegrated."  Chipping was discovered on the extractor of a 3rd gun.  All 3 weapons had the fired casing still in the chamber with the primer plate sheared off.  Ammunition used was Federal 180gr. Hydra-Shok JHP from Lot#1101683684.

Well if thats the case, then why aren't other brands of pistols KBing at the same rate with the same ammo ??
hmmmmmmmmmm [rolleyes]

When I fly on an airliner and they tell us to turn off CD players and cell phones etc....you gotta wonder...do I wanna flay on a jet that could fall from the sky if a kid turned on his CD player? Hell no. Sorta the same with this crap with the Glock. I have a G19 and had a G17, like them both. I carry the G19 in my car. I have shot a 1911 in IPSC since 1987 and I have NEVER shot factory in it....and my reloads are always lead....pretty racey living here. I have only seen two kabooms, one was in my brothers 1911. He was shooting reloads that were for a FA Mac10 and the brass was streached way too much from the very unsuported Mac10. The other was a Glock 22, in 40S&W, It was a reload, jacked bullet and the owner really was a rocket scientist. We checked most all of the remaining ammo and the crimp was fine, The powder he was using (can't remember) almost completly filled the case so a "double charge" would have spilled powder all over his Dillion 650, which it didn't. The top of the chamber of the Glock barrel was BLOWN OFF and never to be seen again (my brother's 1911 needed cleaning and a new grip plate), the top of the Glock's slide was bowed up, the trigger was blown off and so on, it scared the hell out of the shooter and me, as I was the RO. I have seen way too many 1911's compete with knuckle heards loading all sorts of scary combos from 45's to 9X21 and I have only seen one go pop. I have seen way fewer Glocks and I sure as hell saw that one, I believe the gun fired out of battery. When this happened I posted it on Glock Talk....I may as well have announced the Pope was Baptist on the Vatican web site. The Gulfport MS PD has had quite a few 45acp Glocks KB as well, that is a fact.  I like my G19, but I would not love a G22 as much.

Bill

[b]I may as well have announced the Pope was Baptist on the Vatican web site.[/b]

yup. da nile ain't just a river in egypt.

How did they make a pistol that feels like a brick so light?

Three KBs of ANY gun in the same day is weird.

You can say what you want but, I'll NEVER have this problem with my Rugers... BTW, my Kahr does .40 just fine.

BTW, I always hear the argument: "well YOU have never PERSONALLY witnessed a Glock KB..."   As if my personal absence from the incidents totally negates the history of all Glock KBs.  I've never personally witnessed a plane crash, but that doesn't mean that planes never crash.

I'm sure that every single model of firearm has had a KB incident caused by a manufactured defect.  Sure there's a LOT of Glocks out there, but I'm hearing a lot of KB reports, more than the combined KB incidents that I hear of all other manufactures.  Come on, there are a shit load of Berettas in the country, probably pretty close to the number of Glocks, if not more.  How many 1911 variants?  Sigs, S&W, Rugers, HKs, etc.  That's a lot of non-Glock guns.

And to answer the question:  NO, I have never personally witnessed a Glock KB, or any other KB for that matter.  HOWEVER, I have seen a brand spanking new (not a refurb) full sized Glock right out of the tupperware with a CRACK (all the way through the frame) originating from the front of the dustcover, extending almost all the way back to the trigger guard.

Now I don't think anyone here would volunteer to test fire that Glock.  Personally, that made me think twice about ever purchasing another Glock again.

Just a couple of questions:
1.  How KBs were-are with reloads, including unplated lead bullets?
2.  How many KBs are with 180 grain, when dealing with the .40, how many are with the heaviest bullet weight in other cal?
3.  How many are with glock barrels as compared to aftermarket?
4.  How may folks really check their guns, as in new recoil springs, new firing pin springs and check the timing?
5.  When only the 9mm was around, how KBs happened?
I have a .40 glock and she will bulge the brass, you have to be aware and use quality if reloading and throw away more brass than with other guns!!  3 loadings max (including the original if new ammo)  and into the garbage.  compared to some other designs the Glock will outlast most, but only if the ammo used is factory and most likely not 180 grain if 40.  The tradeoff is a light and rust resistant handgun, but some ammo can cause catastrophic headaches.  The design is built around the 9mm and seems to handle the 40 but just barely so.  I would be willing to contribute to a scientific study, the issue is just too important. edited to add:  this is shades of the "bulleye surprise" when mild .38 special loads kept killing off colts and s&w finest.  the end result of that if I remember correctly was double and in some case triple charges, but that was after a lab HP white? did a study on it.  Timing seems to come up alot, and if you think about it, the non link system in the Glock would lend itself to some sort of misaligement or some obstruction could prevent the gun from slamming into battery and then KBOOM.