[ARCHIVED THREAD] - M4Carbine.net (Page 2 of 6)
My LMT upper isn't parked under the FSB. If I ever have to remove the FSB during an invasion by sea, I just don't know what I'll do....... 
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You'd be screwed if the gun range flooded  Better get that fixed ASAP! |
+1. I've never spent any time on their forums (went their once, didn't register); I'm sure they're generally a nice bunch of folks. I'd love to hear both sides of the price-fixing (?) story, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. |
Whoops, I meant to say complete lowers and bolt groups. 
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Because someone who's a member of both boards will run over there and whine to some other M4 members who might come over here to "defend" the board. Names will be called. Mud will be slung. Shit will be talked. Accounts will be locked. Board wars are always pointless. ETA: I'm a member of both boards. I spend time on both. Each has it's strength's & weaknesses. |
Negative. Only people that can not control themselves will get locked. |
Oh goodie, a board war! Should I bring the baseball bat this time, or the tire iron? |
 Just bring the beer! (Nobody ever brings enough beer!  ) Hessian-1 |
The parked FSB doesn't worry me so much as the piss-poor stake jobs on carriers and the cracking bolts. Those can be a pain in the neck. |
I use to be the same way but after 6,000+ rds through a Bushmaster BCG I no longer worry about it. |
Beats me. Perhaps because enough time has passed everybody's decided to let bygones be bygones....or perhaps it has something to do with several moderators here serving as mods or staffers there. Who knows. All I know is that I don't know beans about the whole damned thing and I suspect that I'm a happier man for it. |
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I consider "the chart" to be a load of BS too. Many of the so-called shortcomings can be fixed by buying a BravoCo BCG and relegating the OEM BCG to spare duty. Some of the other stuff can help with full-auto (4150 barrel steel, H-buffer, etc.). I'd take a well-maintained Stag, Armalite, or Bushmaster over an abused, poorly maintained Colt or LMT. |
I'm a member of both boards ("bullets" over there) but I see nothing here that would be considered war-worthy. Act like a grownup and you'll be treated like one. |
I've seen a couple of new Bushies have problems in the past year, but I've seen more "issues" with late model ARs in general lately. I wonder if QC is slipping with the huge demand for rifles everywhere. I have a bushy bolt/carrier in the carbine I shoot most of the time. The stake job sucked but I fixed that. |
When I first started hearing about issues with BM I wondered about that too, but some buddies set me straight with pictures of entire shipments of rifles with piss-poor staking and canted FSB's so bad that it was obvious just to the naked eye. They were meant to be patrol rifles for a department too.....  If you have the chance to inspect a BM and can get one without the initial QC defects then it will probably be just fine for the average joe. Just replace the bolt with a good MPI tested bolt and you're good to go. |
Nope. Bring a Colt or an LMT...anything less will be considered a treasonous act and you will be executed on the spot! Seriously though...this shit about Colt and LMT being better than everything else is fucking asinine. I've been working on Government M16's and M4's for 10 years now and they fuck up and fail also. Most of the shit that people say makes Colt and LMT better are attributes that only matter in sustained automatic or burst fire. I don't think many folks here are going to be participating in any sustained automatic or burst fire, and if you did you would soon realize that that mode of fire is only good for wasting ammo in 99.9 percent of all practical scenarios.... The other stuff (gas key staking, parked under FSB, etc.) can be easily fixed in a matter of minutes at no cost or it doesn't really fucking matter at all. What does matter is that you save hundreds of dollars on the weapon itself that you can now pour into ammo or quality training. When the SHTF, I'd much rather have a guy with a Stag and a shit ton of ammo next to me than a guy with a Colt wanting to mooch my ammo.... For fuck's sake....some of you need to grow up and become a free thinking and well educated adult. |
Not to pick nits, but you'd spend the savings on the Stag to almost bring it up to the same quality as an LMT? I don't comprehend the logic. |
I've never seen a decently staked Bushmaster.  However I haven't seen many with the fsb out of whack. I talked to an industry guy about the MPI test and left thinking that that may not be the big deal it's made out to be, however I could never repeat the technical stuff
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The claim has never been that a Colt 6920 won't break or that it is immune to malfunctions, breakage, or other problems. The contention is that if you want a weapon that out of the box offers the majority of users the best shot at a weapon that will function reliably and turn in acceptable service for the useful life of the weapon, a Colt 6920 is your best shot. That's it. |
Stag's quality is just as good as LMT. A Stag can be put through a carbine course right out of the box and pass. |
which is funny because everytime I talked to grant he was a dick. he was a perpetual thread shitter when he was here and when i tried to bury the hatchet and buy a batch of expensive hard to find items for me and some co-workers he called me a clueless n00b. which is funny for a guy who was a former sailor to tell a Marine in combat that he doesnt know what he needs. He is right under RGuns on my shit list. |
Maybe they are keeping the tards out for the summer. I love that site, no stupid bullshit, just information. They shouldn't let just everyone in - its not ar.15.com and that is where a number of people who were "banned" from here go - except with all the technical knowledge this site used to hold patent on. I got in with no problems, but I consider myself a contributing member who adds technical data and information to the site. So I guess I am biased source. Did he try to register with his high school account? |
Mine sucks too, but it seems to be working just fine. The staking on mine isn't deep enough, but it still has enough steel flowed into the screw-heads to keep it running for all these thousands of rounds so far. ...and since my saying that hasn't jinxed the weapon yet, I don't think it will muck me up for the Vickers advanced carbine/pistol course I have at the end of the week.
It's certainly not a magic bullet, but the MPI tested bolts in aggregate tend to have a longer service life. I personally use Colt bolts as my backup....they are shot peened whereas a lot of other bolts aren't. Shot peened and MPI tested seems to be about the best chance of a bolt that will last 10,000 or more rounds without cracking that I can find. |
regardless, it's not like staking the key doesn't take 2 seconds. I've never seen a factory key staked as firmly as the one's I've done. 
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Now come on. NO ONE will tell you that is how you should read that chart. It simply lists the attributes of each rifle and compares them to the others. I care about BCG parts and what my barrel is made of and my twist rate. I dont give two shits about parking under the FSB, as all my shit is kryloned anyway. That chart is there to allow people to look at the features they want and make an informed decision, not just "guessing" that their bushy or dpms is just as gook as the n4. For the record, I build 90% of my own guns and find this helpful when putting parts together. |
Damn, that sucks. I guess someone is bound to have a bad experience where others have had positive. Does seem a bit odd and discouraging from a customers standpoint, for someone to tell the customer what they need to buy... especially when they have been and are in combat. I have had limited dealings w/ him and generally stick to Rainier Arms and PKFirearms, but he does have some things you don't find readily available elsewhere. |
I wondered if this was going to be a personality driven thread or a tier driven thread. In arfcom tradition, we got both. I have friends on both sites. I prefer to discuss non-gun topics, so I post more here. Each has their place, as people have noted previously. The Internet is a big place; there is plenty of room for both. |
I respectfully disagree, but it is a valiant effort on your part to make it seem like such a common-sense argument. A Colt 6920 MIGHT give you a MARGINALLY better CHANCE at "a weapon that will function reliably and turn in acceptable service for the useful life of the weapon" but I have seen too many Colt's fail early on in thier service life and too many BM's and Stags run without a hiccup for many thousands of rounds to lend any validity to this argument. I think this is more of a case of "I heard that Colt's are better. They are more expensive and the government has contracted them to supply the military, so it must be true!!" Please don't forget that the military awards contracts based on weapons meeting minimum standards and the lowest possible bidder!! |
Not a very deep staking job. I've seen much better, but not on a Stag. |
Let's talk about standards for a minute. Could military standards be minimum? Probably. But they are the only "universal" standards for an AR type rifle out there. The TDP specifies testing procedures, type of steel, etc. Other manufacturers don't have to follow the TDP because they're not building for the .mil. So you end up with various types of steel, slightly different dimensions, etc. Is the TDP the end all? No, but it's better than nothing. |
I've been beside plenty of Bushmasters that run just fine myself....my own personal go-to AR is a Bushmaster that runs like a top. ...but small sample sizes aren't the same thing as large sample sizes.
Yes, minimum standards....such as minimum QC and component standards. That's what the TDP is all about. Most companies out there making AR's don't even comply with the military's minimum standards. For a guy wanting a plinker that's probably not an issue. For someone who intends to use the weapon for serious social purposes it becomes more important to have one that is as reliable and durable as he/she can get it....and the best shot at that is following the TDP. |
Whats worse, is old Grant Timberputz just a few years ago did not know SH&t about ar-15's.They guy had a falling out with Pat Rogers,and Mark Larue.He is only 36 or 37 years old and when i read his posts over their he acts like he has had years and years of experience.  .In one Thread people called him out on his fitness level and if he knew how to protect himself with out his lucky charm(rifle),well the thread was locked.After a few days when Grant could think of a good comeback the thread was unlocked so he could say what he had to say then the Thread was locked again,so no one could respond to him.The guy is worse then a used car salesman. |
the lmt shoots straight? <--stag owner, at least theyre fixing it for free |
My math must be different. Stag Model 2, $830 LMT 16" Service, $1,235 BravoCo BCG, $130 BravoCo Bolt Only, $58 |
Bullshit. 100% bullshit. my stag elevation would not zero even with the claimed "f height" FSB... the gas key was loose... the barrel extension and bolt lugs were too tight and needed 100 rounds and a bunch of CLP to "wear into" each other... in those 100 rounds i had several failures to go into battery and couple FTFs... 75gr rounds keyholed... i tried Stag and was unimpressed... they are fine if you want a casual range gun or plinker... since this was going to be my primary HD carbine... the above incidents were unacceptable... i sold my stag for an LMT upper... which ran 100% out of the box and needed only a few clicks to zero... stag lowers are okay stag/cmt M4 uppers are hit or miss... some fit like a glove... some are very tight... a couple refused to fit any lowers i own without modification stag/cmt bolt carrier groups are iffy... i've had gas keys that didn't fit over gas tubes... out of spec extractors... stag/cmt LPKs are alright, i've had some wacky parts that needed to be replaced (triggers that were twisted, selectors that were rough and had detent holes drilled off center) Stag/CMT's CS though is AWESOME, and they've made everything right... except for the upper situation which i never really reported since its a tolerance stacking issue not a QC issue... oddly enough uppers from Colt, LMT, and Sabre have fit just fine... and most of my lowers are Stag... you'd think the upper tolerances would be within the acceptable range of the lower tolerances... M4carbine isn't a bad site... when i get fed up with a bunch of morons on here debating which Chicom airsoft optic is best for combat use... i gravitate towards M4C... plus i miss MarkM
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Lowest possible bidder was the operable phrase in my comment. Other companies met the standard but couldn't meet Colt's low price to the Gov. Colt makes up for that by charging Joe citizen more for the weapons. My main point here is this, the argument that the cost can be justified because Colt makes a better product is tenuous at best. |
look closer staking is fine on that unit. |