Live Tissue Trauma Training For the Military is questioned in San Diego - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Live Tissue Trauma Training For the Military is questioned in San Diego (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:19:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

A family friend was a medic in the Vietnam War. When he came home he became a paramedic. He's told me personally that he's been on countless calls in the city that rival or surpass the 'fucked up' he saw in Vietnam.

Not sure what you're so butthurt over.

Are you a combat veteran, or have you just heard stories from third parties? Stay in your lane.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:19:24 PM EDT

[#2]

my buddy is a medic in the army (one of my battles in my company who kept me goin after dealing with some medical issues)..... told me how one of the SGTs would stab the pig and then the medics would try to keep it alive ...but you will always fail(pig always dies)..... after the small group of medics were able to keep their pig alive.... the sgt came back.. tagged on of the main arteries with the knife... that did not end well....

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:23:37 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

A family friend was a medic in the Vietnam War. When he came home he became a paramedic. He's told me personally that he's been on countless calls in the city that rival or surpass the 'fucked up' he saw in Vietnam.

Not sure what you're so butthurt over.

Are you a combat veteran, or have you just heard stories from third parties? Stay in your lane.

I am firmly in my lane. You're obviously offended that someone would dare to compare stateside ALS runs to the kind of injuries you encounter in combat. I'm telling you that I have heard, first hand, from a combat medic from Vietnam that he saw shit back home that was just as fucked up as he did in the war.

Factory explosions, machining accidents, car accidents, suicide jumpers, fire deaths, structural collapse, ect. They tend to not be as clean as a simple bullet hole.

Trauma is trauma, explosions are explosions. It doesn't matter if it's from an IED or because somebody fucks up at the factory. Sure, what's going on around you is different but from a medical point of view it's all the same.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:25:05 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

A family friend was a medic in the Vietnam War. When he came home he became a paramedic. He's told me personally that he's been on countless calls in the city that rival or surpass the 'fucked up' he saw in Vietnam.

Not sure what you're so butthurt over.

Are you a combat veteran, or have you just heard stories from third parties? Stay in your lane.

I am firmly in my lane. You're obviously offended that someone would dare to compare stateside ALS runs to the kind of injuries you encounter in combat. I'm telling you that I have heard, first hand, from a combat medic from Vietnam that he saw shit back home that was just as fucked up as he did in the war.

Factory explosions, machining accidents, car accidents, suicide jumpers, fire deaths, structural collapse, ect. They tend to not be as clean as a simple bullet hole.

Trauma is trauma, explosions are explosions. It doesn't matter if it's from an IED or because somebody fucks up at the factory. Sure, what's going on around you is different but from a medical point of view it's all the same.

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:30:32 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

I'm RELAYING TO YOU that a COMBAT VET from the VIETNAM WAR who has personal experience being both a combat medic AND a civilian paramedic disagrees with you. No, I didn't hear any stories. He didn't tell any stories and I didn't ask.

If what you posted was all you got from my post you need to brush up on your basic reading comprehension skills.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:36:15 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

I'm RELAYING TO YOU that a COMBAT VET from the VIETNAM WAR who has personal experience being both a combat medic AND a civilian paramedic disagrees with you. No, I didn't hear any stories. He didn't tell any stories and I didn't ask.

If what you posted was all you got from my post you need to brush up on your basic reading comprehension skills.

Brush up on basic reading comprehension skills? lol. The poster I quoted was obviously referring to "gunshot" victims. If you didn't pick up on that, well, I can't help you.

And I don't give a shit about hearsay. I'm done, goodnight.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:43:31 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

I'm RELAYING TO YOU that a COMBAT VET from the VIETNAM WAR who has personal experience being both a combat medic AND a civilian paramedic disagrees with you. No, I didn't hear any stories. He didn't tell any stories and I didn't ask.

If what you posted was all you got from my post you need to brush up on your basic reading comprehension skills.

And you're speaking to numerous veterans, of these current wars, including a number of combat medics, yet you continue to spout about stories you heard from someone like they mean something.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:45:41 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

I'm RELAYING TO YOU that a COMBAT VET from the VIETNAM WAR who has personal experience being both a combat medic AND a civilian paramedic disagrees with you. No, I didn't hear any stories. He didn't tell any stories and I didn't ask.

If what you posted was all you got from my post you need to brush up on your basic reading comprehension skills.

And you're speaking to numerous veterans, of these current wars, including a number of combat medics, yet you continue to spout about stories you heard from someone like they mean something.

I'll take the word of someone that has been a combat medic and civilian paramedic of the word of a combat medic that has no experience in civilian ALS when discussing comparisons between the two, yeah.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:46:56 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Heard stories, got it. Feel free to ignore me.

I'm RELAYING TO YOU that a COMBAT VET from the VIETNAM WAR who has personal experience being both a combat medic AND a civilian paramedic disagrees with you. No, I didn't hear any stories. He didn't tell any stories and I didn't ask.

If what you posted was all you got from my post you need to brush up on your basic reading comprehension skills.

And you're speaking to numerous veterans, of these current wars, including a number of combat medics, yet you continue to spout about stories you heard from someone like they mean something.

I'll take the word of someone that has been a combat medic and civilian paramedic of the word of a combat medic that has no experience in civilian ALS when discussing comparisons between the two, yeah.

Well good for you then. Enjoy the stories.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:49:04 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

What Medical Center Risk Management team do you think is going to allow this? A person in a trauma unit that isn't some kind of medical personnel or even an EMT with little more than a HS Diploma?

You are very naive of the obvious liability exposures here. Such places already have massive liability concerns WITH trained professionals and maybe some Residents in the Trauma Unit. Even teaching and Military Hospital Administration would never allow this on the scale that it is needed to make our military ready. Further, unless you are going to leave said trainees in the TU for weeks, you can't guarantee that they will have the opportunity to gain hands-on experience the traumatic injuries most critical to the areas that training is needed for their mission.

Necessary.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:50:39 PM EDT

[#11]

My only first hand experience is working on the "realistic" dummies. Don't get me wrong, it's great initial training, but no matter how much blood spurts out of their blown off leg, or how their lungs heave, it's just not the real deal. It's hard to take serious.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:54:07 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

A family friend was a medic in the Vietnam War. When he came home he became a paramedic. He's told me personally that he's been on countless calls in the city that rival or surpass the 'fucked up' he saw in Vietnam.

Not sure what you're so butthurt over.

Are you a combat veteran, or have you just heard stories from third parties? Stay in your lane.

I am firmly in my lane. You're obviously offended that someone would dare to compare stateside ALS runs to the kind of injuries you encounter in combat. I'm telling you that I have heard, first hand, from a combat medic from Vietnam that he saw shit back home that was just as fucked up as he did in the war.

Factory explosions, machining accidents, car accidents, suicide jumpers, fire deaths, structural collapse, ect. They tend to not be as clean as a simple bullet hole.

Trauma is trauma, explosions are explosions. It doesn't matter if it's from an IED or because somebody fucks up at the factory. Sure, what's going on around you is different but from a medical point of view it's all the same.

The training would be useful but you can't have 20 people on every trauma call in order to process the volume of people needed to make our military ready. The logistics are impossible to say nothing of the legal hurdles you run into with training needs as deep as those of a military in wartime. The training you describe might be more applicable to maintaining readiness as opposed to providing initial training.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:54:17 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

What Medical Center Risk Management team do you think is going to allow this? A person in a trauma unit that isn't some kind of medical personnel or even an EMT with little more than a HS Diploma?

You are very naive of the obvious liability exposures here. Such places already have massive liability concerns WITH trained professionals and maybe some Residents in the Trauma Unit. Even teaching and Military Hospital Administration would never allow this on the scale that it is needed to make our military ready. Further, unless you are going to leave said trainees in the TU for weeks, you can't guarantee that they will have the opportunity to gain hands-on experience the traumatic injuries most critical to the areas that training is needed for their mission.

Necessary.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Working in the hospital, true, but what about working in the ambulances? It's been done...

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:57:29 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

The training would be useful but you can't have 20 people on every trauma call in order to process the volume of people needed to make our military ready. The logistics are impossible to say nothing of the legal hurdles you run into with training needs as deep as those of a military in wartime. The training you describe might be more applicable to maintaining readiness as opposed to providing initial training.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I've already said the logistics wouldn't work out for any large scale training. The biggest issue I would see, though, would be the liability. Even on ambulance runs I would have to think a lot of the hands on work wouldn't be allowed. I could be wrong but I know even with an EMT license a lot of departments won't let you do everything you're trained to do when doing a ride along even if they are short staffed.

edit: That and you would be wasting your time going on countless "Grandpa is having chest pains" calls which don't really apply to a combat zone.

Posted: 2/17/2012 9:57:50 PM EDT

[#15]

As a combat medic, who may have done a live tissue lab or 4 and then used those skills on multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and is now on instructor duty for combat medics....it works!

I did a ride along in Nashville prior to my first deployment. It was fun but I didn't see much trauma. In the live tissue labs you get to perform EVERY life saving intervention that we can do on the battlefield. That hands on experience on an actual living, breathing and bleeding patient is priceless.

Posted: 2/17/2012 10:08:21 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
As a combat medic, who may have done a live tissue lab or 4 and then used those skills on multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and is now on instructor duty for combat medics....it works!

I did a ride along in Nashville prior to my first deployment. It was fun but I didn't see much trauma. In the live tissue labs you get to perform EVERY life saving intervention that we can do on the battlefield. That hands on experience on an actual living, breathing and bleeding patientgoat is priceless.

I done fixed it for you. Some won't listen though, of well.

Posted: 2/17/2012 10:30:40 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

What Medical Center Risk Management team do you think is going to allow this? A person in a trauma unit that isn't some kind of medical personnel or even an EMT with little more than a HS Diploma?

You are very naive of the obvious liability exposures here. Such places already have massive liability concerns WITH trained professionals and maybe some Residents in the Trauma Unit. Even teaching and Military Hospital Administration would never allow this on the scale that it is needed to make our military ready. Further, unless you are going to leave said trainees in the TU for weeks, you can't guarantee that they will have the opportunity to gain hands-on experience the traumatic injuries most critical to the areas that training is needed for their mission.

Necessary.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Working in the hospital, true, but what about working in the ambulances? It's been done...

For additional training/readiness maintenance when openings are available? Sure. Impossible to accommodate the military's minimal readiness needs without having trainees dispersed over a wide geographic area with no guarantee that they will encounter the experience needed to properly complete initial training. Logistically impossible.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/17/2012 10:31:36 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The training would be useful but you can't have 20 people on every trauma call in order to process the volume of people needed to make our military ready. The logistics are impossible to say nothing of the legal hurdles you run into with training needs as deep as those of a military in wartime. The training you describe might be more applicable to maintaining readiness as opposed to providing initial training.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I've already said the logistics wouldn't work out for any large scale training. The biggest issue I would see, though, would be the liability. Even on ambulance runs I would have to think a lot of the hands on work wouldn't be allowed. I could be wrong but I know even with an EMT license a lot of departments won't let you do everything you're trained to do when doing a ride along even if they are short staffed.

edit: That and you would be wasting your time going on countless "Grandpa is having chest pains" calls which don't really apply to a combat zone.

Agree 100%

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/17/2012 10:43:45 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

What Medical Center Risk Management team do you think is going to allow this? A person in a trauma unit that isn't some kind of medical personnel or even an EMT with little more than a HS Diploma?

You are very naive of the obvious liability exposures here. Such places already have massive liability concerns WITH trained professionals and maybe some Residents in the Trauma Unit. Even teaching and Military Hospital Administration would never allow this on the scale that it is needed to make our military ready. Further, unless you are going to leave said trainees in the TU for weeks, you can't guarantee that they will have the opportunity to gain hands-on experience the traumatic injuries most critical to the areas that training is needed for their mission.

Necessary.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Working in the hospital, true, but what about working in the ambulances? It's been done...

For additional training/readiness maintenance when openings are available? Sure. Impossible to accommodate the military's minimal readiness needs without having trainees dispersed over a wide geographic area with no guarantee that they will encounter the experience needed to properly complete initial training. Logistically impossible.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Thanks, appreciate the insight. I think when 10th MTN did it, they were working small numbers of guys through, and NYC isn't exactly a quiet place to run EMS.

Posted: 2/17/2012 11:02:19 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
All the programs mentioned previously are already in practice. The goat/pig program is to simulate field conditions. Can't legally or ethicallydo that with a person.

FIFY. If you toss your ethics and the law you can do a whole lot....ask the ATF....

Posted: 2/18/2012 4:20:29 AM EDT

[#21]

The PETA people can f*ck right the hell off.

That training saves lives.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:22:19 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:42:41 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?

Working on parasitic worms is not similar to working on humans.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:45:02 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

*snort*

That's rich.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:45:32 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

What is the incidence rate of blast injuries in a moderately large city's ER? (Pretty small these days, thankfully) Compare that rate to the number of medics we have to train. (A whole lot, unfortunately)

Now we have to marry the two numbers up, and extrapolate how long it will take for all of those medics to have hands on experience with those injuries.

You'll find that the time required to do ensure that they all have the adequate amount of time dealing with those injuries is not a usable length of time. You can do the same thing with the numbers of uncontrolled bleeds showing up at the ER without any previous interventions, and though you'll find the time is more manageable, it's still not really a useful amount of time.

All of that of course ignores the liability factors. No doctor is going to let an EMT be the primary caregiver (in reality the only caregiver) to a human patient with such injuries just to let him learn how.

With pigs or goats we can give the medic or corpsman a complex set of injuries (one obvious major injury, one non-obvious major injury, and one obvious superficial injury that looks bad, for example) and the medic/corpsman has to do his exam and every intervention by himself (or with some CLS guys as muscle) and has to take responsibility for every aspect of his patient's wellbeing. He has no team. He has no doctor guiding him. He has absolutely no safety net. When he fails, his patient dies. Period. It really goes to reinforce the fact that his actions have consequences and that he's the one responsible for the patient's life, and it does so in the most economical and ethical manner possible. I know the military does some things completely wrong, but this particular instance is not one of those.

But no, you know what, you guys can tell me all about my job. Go ahead. You're the experts with second hand stories, I'm just the idiot who did it personally.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:49:01 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

What is the incidence rate of blast injuries in a moderately large city's ER? (Pretty small these days, thankfully) Compare that rate to the number of medics we have to train. (A whole lot, unfortunately)

Now we have to marry the two numbers up, and extrapolate how long it will take for all of those medics to have hands on experience with those injuries.

You'll find that the time required to do ensure that they all have the adequate amount of time dealing with those injuries is not a usable length of time. You can do the same thing with the numbers of uncontrolled bleeds showing up at the ER without any previous interventions, and though you'll find the time is more manageable, it's still not really a useful amount of time.

All of that of course ignores the liability factors. No doctor is going to let an EMT be the primary caregiver (in reality the only caregiver) to a human patient with such injuries just to let him learn how.

With pigs or goats we can give the medic or corpsman a complex set of injuries (one obvious major injury, one non-obvious major injury, and one obvious superficial injury that looks bad, for example) and the medic/corpsman has to do his exam and every intervention by himself (or with some CLS guys as muscle) and has to take responsibility for every aspect of his patient's wellbeing. He has no team. He has no doctor guiding him. He has absolutely no safety net. When he fails, his patient dies. Period. It really goes to reinforce the fact that his actions have consequences and that he's the one responsible for the patient's life, and it does so in the most economical and ethical manner possible. I know the military does some things completely wrong, but this particular instance is not one of those.

But no, you know what, you guys can tell me all about my job. Go ahead. You're the experts with second hand stories, I'm just the idiot who did it personally.

BAM! There it is!

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:51:15 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
EXCLUSIVE: Pigs killed in military trauma training near Alpine

I like how the PETA rep stated that she knows FOR A FACT that no other military uses live animals during training.

I know for a FACT that the live tissue our medic gets for his classes come from slaughter houses, so the animals are already dead anyway.
Fuck PETA.

Posted: 2/18/2012 11:59:58 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

What is the incidence rate of blast injuries in a moderately large city's ER? (Pretty small these days, thankfully) Compare that rate to the number of medics we have to train. (A whole lot, unfortunately)

Now we have to marry the two numbers up, and extrapolate how long it will take for all of those medics to have hands on experience with those injuries.

You'll find that the time required to do ensure that they all have the adequate amount of time dealing with those injuries is not a usable length of time. You can do the same thing with the numbers of uncontrolled bleeds showing up at the ER without any previous interventions, and though you'll find the time is more manageable, it's still not really a useful amount of time.

All of that of course ignores the liability factors. No doctor is going to let an EMT be the primary caregiver (in reality the only caregiver) to a human patient with such injuries just to let him learn how.

With pigs or goats we can give the medic or corpsman a complex set of injuries (one obvious major injury, one non-obvious major injury, and one obvious superficial injury that looks bad, for example) and the medic/corpsman has to do his exam and every intervention by himself (or with some CLS guys as muscle) and has to take responsibility for every aspect of his patient's wellbeing. He has no team. He has no doctor guiding him. He has absolutely no safety net. When he fails, his patient dies. Period. It really goes to reinforce the fact that his actions have consequences and that he's the one responsible for the patient's life, and it does so in the most economical and ethical manner possible. I know the military does some things completely wrong, but this particular instance is not one of those.

But no, you know what, you guys can tell me all about my job. Go ahead. You're the experts with second hand stories, I'm just the idiot who did it personally.

I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaves the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

(edit for grammar)

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:04:12 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaved the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just going to recommend that you hold your tongue on subjects like this that you're not intimately involved with, especially when others you're arguing with are.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Have a good day, sir.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:04:36 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?

So long as we inject them with die so no one eats them afterwards...

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:11:29 PM EDT

[#31]

Live tissue training is a very sensitive issue. Many people don't do well with it when they learn what it is.

One time, I was asked to call a landfill in another state and ask them about disposing x number of expired goats. The guy that asked me to call was a retired USN 18D, and had a class coming up. Well, I called and was met with all sorts of "WTF are you talking about all these dead goats and who the f*** are you and why are you doing this?" That call didn't go well. The landfill even called back with more "WTF?" questions since they had caller ID, but the feller at our front desk bullshitted them and deflected the goat crises.

I don't remember what they did with the goats, but the resulting "GTAs" are definitely kept under the radar.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:17:19 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaved the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just going to recommend that you hold your tongue on subjects like this that you're not intimately involved with, especially when others you're arguing with are.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Have a good day, sir.

Lol, ok mr. trauma expert. Come do some ER shifts in my city and we can talk.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:27:06 PM EDT

[#33]

Holy shit theres a lot herp derp in here.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:27:25 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaved the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just going to recommend that you hold your tongue on subjects like this that you're not intimately involved with, especially when others you're arguing with are.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Have a good day, sir.

Lol, ok mr. trauma expert. Come do some ER shifts in my city and we can talk.

Hows about you walk in his shoes first? Tour as a combat medic in Afghanistan vs trauma whatever you do in the ER? You really wana compare the two?

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:34:41 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Unecessary.

Explain.

I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER

battlefield =/= trama ER

I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.

High velocity gunshot wounds don't differentiate between the battlefield and the ghetto. MVAs result in mangled limbs and dead people all the time. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

It aint small arms fire killing people, its getting blown the fuck up with massive amounts of high explosives. And thank Jesus that doesn't happen here often.

The sort of injuries they are seeing in Iraq and Afghanastan just don't happen here with any frequency. Its not losing a limb or getting shot. Its massive overpressures, accelerations on the human body, burns, and getting ripped the fuck up. You just don't see outside of freak industrial accidents.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:35:57 PM EDT

[#36]

My only concern about live tissue labs with pigs is that it could place the student in a conflict of interest between saving the patient and conspiring to eat the patient later. Ham is good!

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:39:31 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaved the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just going to recommend that you hold your tongue on subjects like this that you're not intimately involved with, especially when others you're arguing with are.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Have a good day, sir.

Lol, ok mr. trauma expert. Come do some ER shifts in my city and we can talk.

I'm sure you're aware that even if the trauma is comparable to what we see on the battlefield, the methods used and conditions are completely different, making the training, while useful, imperfect, right?

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:41:17 PM EDT

[#38]

The only issue with putting 68Ws through ER rotations is the lack of being able to do anything.

We went through this problem when I was an instructor. Medics aren't allowed to do shit in civilian ERs because of their license level. So what benefit is there to it? Doctors wont want to risk their ability to practice because some private goes into full brain lock during a trauma. Too much liability.

Live tissue labs, on the other hand, really have no downside. We can do whatever is necessary to keep them alive and not be restricted by comfort levels of the 15 people watching you like a hawk.

YMMV

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:57:35 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
The only issue with putting 68Ws through ER rotations is the lack of being able to do anything.

We went through this problem when I was an instructor. Medics aren't allowed to do shit in civilian ERs because of their license level. So what benefit is there to it? Doctors wont want to risk their ability to practice because some private goes into full brain lock during a trauma. Too much liability.

Live tissue labs, on the other hand, really have no downside. We can do whatever is necessary to keep them alive and not be restricted by comfort levels of the 15 people watching you like a hawk.

YMMV

There it is.

Animal labs are a MUCH better option. You can shoot them, stab them, strap them in an old Amtrack and blow them up, burn them, amputate them, etc.

You can do things with animals (anesthetized, of course), that you could NEVER do with a human simulator... or actual human being.

Posted: 2/18/2012 12:59:33 PM EDT

[#40]

I'm not sure why this is still being discussed. Myself and other BTDTs has already stated that the live tissue training is the best trauma training we get.

Lol at the civilian trauma comparison. When EMS starts treating bleeds with tourniquets and shock with hextend or doing care under fire or sitting on patients for hours by themselves then we can talk.

Posted: 2/18/2012 1:02:21 PM EDT

[#41]

The first time a medic tries to stop a real arterial bleed shouldn't be when a human life is at stake. It's a fucking animal. Who gives a shit.

Posted: 2/18/2012 1:25:29 PM EDT

[#42]

The only issue I have with using live animals or even dead ones is that we don't get enough of them.

Killing animals to learn lifesaving skills is unpleasant, but watching your buddy die in some third world shithole because you have never seen a spurting arterial bleed or an amputation before is unacceptable.

People will occasionally freeze in place and forget WTF they are there to do when the SHTF and they a)don't recognize the S has HTF, or b)revert to their level of (inadequate) training trying to stop bleeds on rubber mannequins. It happens, I've seen it.

Quoted:

Quoted:

There is no replacement for real tissue.

"White-trash military scum! They don't need to do this at all. They can use stuffed animals or bales of hay or something. This has NOTHING to do with "saving lives." No- I am not a vegetarian. Just got another reminder today about scummy military filth"

According to that genius "stuffed animals or bales of hay or something" is a replacement for real tissue.

Posted: 2/18/2012 1:26:55 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

They're anesthetized, then inured.

I don't see how it's any different than a slaughterhouse.

In fact, with the anesthetic, you could make the argument that the animal suffers less.

I am more alarmed that time and money are being wasted with pain meds for animals.

An injured animals behavior cannot be predicted. It is safer for our people if the animals are anesthetized.

Posted: 2/18/2012 1:32:11 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The only issue with putting 68Ws through ER rotations is the lack of being able to do anything.

We went through this problem when I was an instructor. Medics aren't allowed to do shit in civilian ERs because of their license level. So what benefit is there to it? Doctors wont want to risk their ability to practice because some private goes into full brain lock during a trauma. Too much liability.

Live tissue labs, on the other hand, really have no downside. We can do whatever is necessary to keep them alive and not be restricted by comfort levels of the 15 people watching you like a hawk.

YMMV

There it is.

Animal labs are a MUCH better option. You can shoot them, stab them, strap them in an old Amtrack and blow them up, burn them, amputate them, etc.

You can do things with animals (anesthetized, of course), that you could NEVER do with a human simulator... or actual human being.

And more specifically you'll get to see the injuries you need to see. No one needs to see GSWs to the abdomen or brain matter, they need arterial bleeds, airway obstruction, and pneumothorax, and they need to deal with them in the field, not in an ER. Doc, as an experienced ER physician, how many surgical airways have you gotten to do? Needle decompressions? These guys will get multiple chances in a day.

So to summarize for Sparky, if they had enough ER rotations for all the medics and corpsmen, and if the ER staff actually let them do anything, they wouldn't learn what they need anyway. Live tissue is irreplaceable.

Posted: 2/18/2012 1:40:14 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the goat lab as being a current exercise for combat medics prior to deployment.

My wife, an Army medic, can't either and rolled her eyes at this story.

Posted: 2/18/2012 2:01:23 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The only issue with putting 68Ws through ER rotations is the lack of being able to do anything.

We went through this problem when I was an instructor. Medics aren't allowed to do shit in civilian ERs because of their license level. So what benefit is there to it? Doctors wont want to risk their ability to practice because some private goes into full brain lock during a trauma. Too much liability.

Live tissue labs, on the other hand, really have no downside. We can do whatever is necessary to keep them alive and not be restricted by comfort levels of the 15 people watching you like a hawk.

YMMV

There it is.

Animal labs are a MUCH better option. You can shoot them, stab them, strap them in an old Amtrack and blow them up, burn them, amputate them, etc.

You can do things with animals (anesthetized, of course), that you could NEVER do with a human simulator... or actual human being.

And more specifically you'll get to see the injuries you need to see. No one needs to see GSWs to the abdomen or brain matter, they need arterial bleeds, airway obstruction, and pneumothorax, and they need to deal with them in the field, not in an ER. Doc, as an experienced ER physician, how many surgical airways have you gotten to do? Needle decompressions? These guys will get multiple chances in a day.

So to summarize for Sparky, if they had enough ER rotations for all the medics and corpsmen, and if the ER staff actually let them do anything, they wouldn't learn what they need anyway. Live tissue is irreplaceable.

Enough to know what I'm doing.

Field medics should have the same skillset.

Posted: 2/18/2012 2:16:48 PM EDT

[#47]

For all of you naysayers, and emt fanboys/workers,,,

Whenever your city is ready to let 100 of my medics come over there, and can gaurentee that they will all get a severe bleeder and the need to do an airway every shift they work, and that they will deal with shrapenel and extreme lacerations every shift they work, and that your city/hospital/ambulance company is willing to underwrite the insuarance so that they can practice DITCH medicine and LIGHT SURGICAL INTERVENTIONS on the general public let me know.

Oh, and you can only have them for a week, because they have a shitload of other training they have to complete before their deployment. And half of them are out of tolerance on their actual emt certs, because of funding, training or time issues.

And also, when and if they mess it up, i hope you dont mind REAL human beings dying, and on top of that they will be about 20x more nervous doin it on people first, as opposed to an animal, so im sure they wont mess up the first time in anyway, im sure the general public will be very understanding.

Im not even a damn medic, and these things are immediatly obvious to me
I have been emt certed, but i really dont think that qualifies me to do what my medics do, since i dont think alot of emts are stuck under fire for extended periods of time, or that their evacs get turned around or rerouted, or cant make the lz (for hours)

be honest, you respond to an incident, do what you can and transport asap, to a staffed er. My medics are there when it happens, and have to do TC3, which means wait untill the fire dies enough to recover the wounded, than they have to treat, and than they have to sit with until transport is available

im

Posted: 2/18/2012 2:24:34 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Enough to know what I'm doing.

Field medics should have the same skillset.

I have no doubt.

I'm just making the point that they're not going to show up to an ER and get three tries in one night.

Posted: 2/18/2012 2:38:44 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?

You have my vote.

Posted: 2/18/2012 2:52:09 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:I'm not questioning the live training, I think its a good idea but obviously longer term training in a ER / ALS situation would be better. All I'm saying that the guy who thinks battlefield medicine is so so so different than what you see at a major city urban trauma center is incorrect. Trauma is trauma, there's nothing super secret and special about it. Where does the research for trauma care come from? The military does a lot of it but certainly not the majority. A blow to the head that crushes the skull and leaved the brain mangled doesn't matter if its from some pissed off Arab with a RPG or Tay-shaun the crack dealer with a baseball bat and tapco fucked SKS.

Yeah, okay.

I'm just going to recommend that you hold your tongue on subjects like this that you're not intimately involved with, especially when others you're arguing with are.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Have a good day, sir.

Lol, ok mr. trauma expert. Come do some ER shifts in my city and we can talk.

I'm sure you're aware that even if the trauma is comparable to what we see on the battlefield, the methods used and conditions are completely different, making the training, while useful, imperfect, right?

No I'm not saying that some civilian medic is going to be babysitting a trauma patient for hours waiting to get him out of an area where people are actively shooting at him. The methods may be different but the ideas are the same. A fresh .mil medic is not going to be as good as a 25 year urban medic. You have to get a basic knowledge of how to do things before you start doing them in the middle of BFE Afghanistan. As others have stated, intubating people with bad airways, "surgical" airways, needle decompressions, tourniquets (which aren't that complicated), etc are things a medic needs to know how to do in the field versus an ED with all your supplies handy. But don't go thinking that a medic has some sort of super special skills that don't exist elsewhere. Blast injuries are uncommon in the civilian world, but that doesn't make their management some dark art of medicine.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Live Tissue Trauma Training For the Military is questioned in San Diego (Page 2 of 3)

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