Post from Paul -

Yes, but the testimony was that they were being buzzed all morning long by Israeli aircraft and yet there was no one on board who could accurately identify the type and nationality of these aircraft?

Hell, the Mirage and Mystere aircraft are so different from the Migs and Hunters that the Arabs (and Soviets, we now know) were flying in that war! Why the confusion over such a simple issue?

Now right here is where you lose me. It's the very same place I got lost last time.

Are you referring to what the US Navy (and, presumably, the Israeli Navy) do [u]now[/u], or [u]back in 1967[/u]?  Were there 'EMCOM conditions' back then, or just in today's Navy?

Do you reckon the Israeli pilots knew anything like the various hues of greys that are used by the various navies of the world, back in 1967, when this was likely the first time that they may have ever ventured out to attack a ship at sea?

There are so [u]few[/u] ships in the Syrian, Jordanian or Iraqi navies for them to train in recognition.

That's nice, but the question is: how did the Israeli Air Force think it would be able to shut down the radio communications of the USS Liberty so thoroughly that the ship wouldn't be able to get off a distress call?

If the Israelis thought this, they were wrong, weren't they, because the USS Liberty managed to get off a whole lotta 'maydays' during the attack!

So even if we allow for a whole bunch of jamming, we still don't get an answer as to why the Israelis were unconcerned about some sort of US Naval counterattack to their attack on the USS Liberty!

Imagine the surprise that would have been in store for those Israeli torpedo boats had there been two squadrons of angry Phantoms waiting for them in the air above the crippled ship!  

We might have had to pay reparations to the Israelis, instead of the other way around!

And in conclusion, let me ask you the same question as I did last year on this topic - why? Why risk it? Why risk the sudden maelstrom that should have been visited upon the Israelis in view of this dastard attack?

I mean, c'mon, they may be [u]smart[/u], but they're seldom [u]lucky[/u]!

Eric The(TheyWereDamnLuckyThatTime!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Jarhead_22 -

Yes, that's [u]one[/u] of the questions I'm asking, but no one has been able to tell me how this sophisticated intelligence ship that knows beforehand that it's steaming into Egyptian-Israeli waters during the height of a hot war between those two nations, simply doesn't have the ability to describe in its mayday distress calls the identity of the attacking aircraft!

The whole reason that the USS Liberty was put in harm's way in the first place was to gather intelligence on the Soviet aircraft being used by Egypt, and yet it couldn't figure out that, well, if it's not being attacked by Migs, it must be those, er, you know, other planes!

The ones, er, that other country flies!

The other questions slices to the very heart of the issue - if you can find a good enough reason for Israel to do what it has done, then any defense of what was done loses ground rapidly.

It's like proving that someone murdered their wife. If there is only circumstantial evidence that links the husband to the dead wife's murder, he will likely not be prosecuted.

Find a girlfriend, or a recently purchased life insurance policy, and it's 'book 'em Danno!'

Eric The(It'sCalled'Motive'AndSeldomIsItMissing)Hun[>]:)]

Asked and answered, counselor:




There's a great deal of difference between the RF emissions of Soviet aircraft that you're expecting to see, and visual identification of [b][i]allied[/i][/b] (irony intended) aircraft that you're not expecting to see gunning the hell out of your [b]clearly marked[/b] ship.



Again,



Yes, but OJ is still out looking for the real killers. Maybe he'll stumble across the real reason that ship was fired up while he's at it.

Since those who use the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor as an excuse to continually use the word "jap", it is well within the same logic and acceptance to use the word "kike" in reference to isrealis in regards to this incident. That is unless there is there some kind of double standard when it comes to not being "politically correct".

Uhhhh.....for any of the delusional to believe that this was a mere case of mistaken identity, let me remind you that the ship was buzzed repeatedly by SLOW moving and low flying recon aircraft who KNEW what they were looking at.They flew low enough that friendly waves were exchanged from pilot to those on deck. How do we know for SURE they id'd the ship as American? The intercept operator on board, Chief Melvin Smith repeatedly heard aircrews report to their superiors that YES it was an American ship.

There were express orders given by the officer of the deck to fly the American flag and ensure that it didn't get tangled in any lines so that it would be visible. Sorry, if a man can see your face, then he can surely see that VERY distinctive flag. (Remember the American flag Eric? It's the one WITHOUT the Star of David on it.)

The entire story is available to any who'd dare take the time to read it at the USS Liberty website.

Former Sec. Of State, Dean Rusk and former JCS chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was no accident. Yet, we are to believe the apologists for Israel when they claim that the incident was investigated and Israel cleared, which is a damnable LIE!

MANY, MANY high level men in the know dispute such nonsense, and it is only the fringe players who offer other accounts. Ask the men who were attacked....I'm quite sure they might know best of all. It's a slap in the face to hear those desperate lovers of all things Jewish betray  not only their country but those murdered sailors, by refusing to accept the only credible accounts, those of the men there.

Also...why did Israel use UNMARKED planes? This certainly isn't SOP. Were they trying to sink the ship and blame the Arabs, thus dragging us into the war? Why not? It seems to fit their M.O. According to the apologists...we have to believe one bizarre coincidence after another.
Unmarked planes, gun boats at close range, hours worth of recon that undoubtedly KNEW it was American, and on and on.

The final triumph was that those inept clowns, those perpetually wailing "victims" TM, couldn't sink a lightly armed ship with all of the firepower they brought to bear. Seems that Israelis get their highest death tolls when strafing kids and women, or when shooting folks up close in the back of the head.

As an aside...
I have to correct Eric (the very Kosher) Hun, (or was that Eric the Hasidic?) in his earlier misleading statement confusing the term Jew with religion. He mentioned that we wouldn't call the USS Liberty a Christian ship, and I have to wonder if he is intentionally decptive, or just that lost.

First...Jew is a blood link. True, one can convert, through Judaism (the religion of some Jews) which stresses allegiance to the tribe of Judah, but the primary meaning of Jew is blood based. The old argument of Jew=religion is ludicrous and doesn't hold up under even the most cursory of glances. In fact, with the exception of those trying to get ahead in Jewish Hollywood, (Sammy Davis jr., Whoopie Goldberg, Tom Arnold) who converts to Judaism?

I mean, Trotsky was a Jew, as was Vladimir Lenin. These noted communists aren't exactly known for any belief in God. Even Karl `Marx, son of a Rabbi wasn't known as religious. Neither was Maddie MURRAY O'Hare the noted American Jewess, known for her religious bent.

In fact, the law of Return in Israel addresses this point specifically and attaches the highest order to the BLOOD link.

When I hear Jewish apologists carrying water in the telling of the "Jew as Religion" lie, I have to chuckle aloud. Surely we ALL know the term "non-religious Jew". Ever heard the same term for a Christian? Of course not. Christian is a religious term based on faith, a profession of faith, or a facade of faith. The term is one that needs the complicity of the Christian. There is no such animal as an atheistic Christian, while Jewish atheists are so common as to be unremarkable.

I'd hope that if Eric was suffering from a severe case of Jewish envy he might read up on the matter. Rabbis write books you know...care for a few recommendations?

If he is knowledgeable on this matter, I'd hope that he would not try to obfuscate it as the matter of the USS Liberty. In my heart of hearts though, it is all to clear that the Liberty means nothing to him. If it were attacked by the enemies of Israel, his heart would be enraged. Since it was his earthly angels that did the attacking, he turns the blind eye.

Let me remind you Eric that the worship of man is a sin, and a  sign of the coming of the anti-Christ. It seems that if the Anti-Christ wears a Yarmulke he'll have your undying allegiance.

Hitler practiced Nazism. If the Anti Christ practices Zionism he'll have the majority of "Christians" (Zionists is the preferred term) kissing his saintly

Imbroglio...
Jap is a contraction of the word Japanese. It is no more slur than the word Tex is for a Texan.

However, it should be noted that in polite society, one is not encouraged to make the distinction of who is or isn't a Jew. In fact, Jews have come up with a whole new word to keep from having to draw attention  to their Jewishness. They use the word Anti-Semite, when they mean Anti-Jew, or Anti-Zionist.

Semites consist of FAR more peoples than just Jews, but Jews have hijacked the word and seem to be hiding among the other semites so as not to be identified. In fact, you will NEVER hear the term Anti-Semite except when used to reference Jews.

We should also note this....
Jews are from the tribe/nation of Judah. The seperate and distinctly different nation of Israel was carried off into captivity and never seen again in history. The two nations contnuously warred with one another, and after Israel was carried off, Judah must have seen what was coming for them, as they created the relgion that carries their name todday. It is no coincidence that Judaism as a religion borders on the worship of Jews as a people. It made a  soon to be scattered tribe keep their cohesion across national lines. So much so that the concept of Jewish collusion against any particular host nation has been remarked upon for centuries by the Gentiles.

I am struck by the oddity of a nation (Judah) leaving their homeland and their descendants (Jews) naming a newly stolen nation after a separate people, the Israelis some 2k years later? Who says Satan doesn't have a sense of humor?

It would be akin to the Pakistanis invading England and calling themselves English. OOOPS...that IS happening today, isn't it?

Not in the context that it's use was being justified in the other thread.

And lastly Eric....

If the seamen didn't ID the Mirage and Mystere planes, then who the heck did? Perhaps it was the nearby American submarine that observed the entire incident through a periscope and said nothing?

Israel has a very strong hold of this land Eric. It is no coincidence that we "give" them billions in direct aid, and even more indirect aid annually.

The Jewish lobby in America is so well known that American Congressmen quake at fear of offending it. Congressmen and Senators have remarked on the illegality of a FORIGN power writing American legislation, but only AFTER they leave office.

For once I'd like to see America take care of Americans and let those sellouts who love Israel so dearly give aid out of PRIVATE funds.
Remember, the idea of Seperation of Church and State means that your worship of Jews as the new State religion is illegal when done on my tax dollar.

Post from Jesred -

Read it, and the many, many articles, dozens of times.

It's a very fair website, because it contains links to those opposed to it.

But are you certain Jesred there was only one American submarine in the vicinity at the time of the attack?

And, just to answer your long posts, simply...

[size=3]You still can't manage to come up with a supposed reason for the attack, can you?[/size=3]

Eric The(Gentile)Hun[>]:)]

For fuck's sake, where have you been? The "anti-Semite" flag has already been run up on page two of this thread. Please pay attention.

Post from Jesred -

No Sir, it was the confusion of the term 'Jew' with the 'State of Israel' that I complained about in my earlier post.

Hitler sure knew who the Jews were, didn't he? He had no trouble picking them out of the general population of every country he ever managed to get his miserable hands on.  

No one refers to the 'Jews' when talking about the State of Israel, unless they're a Neo-Nazi or just plain ignorant.

Is [u]every[/u] Jew an Israeli? Is [u]every[/u] Israeli a Jew? [b]No[/b] to both questions!

By 'just that lost' are you referring, perhaps, to the state of my Christianity? My personal salvation? Or what? Hmmm?

Oh, I 'spect the Anti-Christ may wear a yarmulke [u]and[/u] a cross of some sort, though he respects not the faith of his fathers. So if you're looking for a Jew, he may easily, and most likely will be, a Christian. But then, who knows?

If I perceive, wrongly, that you may be a Christian, forgive me, but are you certain that the prophet Isaiah didn't say that the Jews were to be regathered from all nations and assembled in the Holy Land before the return of the Messiah?

If so, why are you complaining? It's simply the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise, nothing less.

You bandy about the term Anti-Christ as if you think he's here to delude only the Jews, when in fact he will deceive the whole world.

As a matter of fact he will make war on the Jews. In that day, if you are here on planet earth, just who will you be rooting for in that fight?

It must gall a lot of folks that when the Messiah returns to this earth, He will first set His Foot down in [b]Israel[/b], near His City, and enter it through His Gate!

Not NYC, not Paris, not Rome, not DC, Hell! not even Dallas, but His City - Jerusalem.

And He will be doing so as prophesied many, many years ago by Jewish prophets, in a Jewish book.

Kind of sickening for some of you, eh?????

Eric The(Well'ToughCookies'ToYou!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Jarhead_22 -

Not by me, though, eh?

But I will not deny that a great deal of the complaints aginst every single blessed thing that the State of Israel does may be motivated by hatred, pure and simple.

The 'fog of war' is the fog of war, for them, for us, for every nation that's ever practiced the art of warfare.

To say that Israel purposefully attacked the ship of another noncombatant nation on the high seas, you must have conclusive proof.

Here, there have been ten US inquiries into the matter, and three Israeli inquiries. All have found that the attack was a tragic mistake in the midst of a hot war.

The matter has been settled conclusively between the nations by every means available to two sovereign countries.

If you want to reopen the case, fine, but you should come up with some fresh evidence before you do so.

And fresh evidence was uncovered in the form of the released communiques between the two countries in 1997. There was simply no smoking gun, there were no indications that the attack was anything but an accident!

So conjecture as you may, that is your perogative, but the matter has been resolved to my satisfaction.

At least for now.

And while you're conjecturing, conjecture up yet another reason for the attack - the 'hiding the impending attack on the Golan Heights' was blown away by the revelation of the messages sent by Israel to DC informing the US of its intentions to attack there, well before the attack on the USS Liberty.

The 'hiding the mass murder of Egyptian POWs' has been never been accepted as a serious reason by anyone other than the Arab press {not even Arab governments swallow that one) and the usual suspects of anti-Israel sentiment.

So what's left?

A 'joy ride' gone bad?

Eric The(Sarcastic)Hun[>]:)]

Delayed_Entrails,

Afghanistan ?
Loyalty tests ?
Fecalphilic shit-stains ?

"FRIENDLY Fire ?"

Ex-Navy people, aliens, Jerry Ford ?

I believe you must have erroneously replied to my post while believing you were replying to another.
[X]

(You might go back through this topic and look at the little "mushoot" has been willing to say.)

Golly gee, this is why I simply [u]love[/u] these USS Liberty threads!

They go nowhere fast.

I will continue to raise the same tired objections to the same tired allegations and no one's mind will be changed.

Well maybe no one's.

When I was young and didn't know any better, I believed that the USS Liberty incident was a purposeful attack by the Israelis.

I was 15 years old at the time of the attack and was following the fighting with my usual attention to detail.

When the news of the attack was announced, I thought, gee, how could something like that happen. The Israelis were the 'good guys' to this fundamentalist Christian way out in West Texas!

But they must have [u]mistakenly[/u] attacked our ship! Surely?

Then later, when the full story was reported and the fact that the USS Liberty was a spy ship with electronic listening devices, etc., I changed my opinion.

It quickly became: the reason that the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty was simple. The Israelis were in the process of putting together one of the most clever military ruses ever devised.

They were trying to convince each of their Arab enemies that the remaining Arab enemies were still in the fight.

To do this, they had Arabic speaking Israelis speaking to each other over air-to-air radios saying such stuff as 'Yoo Hoo Achmed, I have shot down another Zionist bastard, that makes 5 for the day.' 'Yes, Osama, we rule the skys!'

Why? To convince the other Arab nations that, even though their own air forces had bascially been shot to pieces on the first day, the other Arab nations were fighting on successfully!

Therefore, each Arab nation would continue the already-lost fight so Israel could gobble up more land, including their precious Jerusalem.

The problem for the Israelis was simple. There was a spy ship in the Med that understood that there were [b]no[/b] such Arab successes anywhere in the theatre, and it could easily relay that sort of info to the Arabs!

The spy ship had to be taken out [u]before[/u] the ruse could be successfully continued!

Ergo, the attack.

Wrong then, and wrong now!

But you see I've come full circle.[:D]

Eric The(SteamingInCircles)Hun[>]:)]

America's navy has been sacrificed several times in our recent history, in order to facilitate our entry into conflicts that did not concern us.

The conquest of the Golan Heights was by no means a sure thing. An Israeli victory in this war was by no means a sure thing when it started, although, by the time of the attack on the Liberty, victory was looking rather certain. Conspiracies are seldom conspired spur of the moment. It may take days or even weeks to map out a good shenanegan.

Suppose Israel and the US were unsure of the Israeli's abilty to beat the Arab world in this war, and suppose the US did not feel that there was enough support, stateside, for the eventual US entry into such a war? How could Israel and the US change the mood of the US people?

How about that tried and trued method of sacrificing the US Navy for a noble (actaully,dastardly) cause?

That might explain some of the inexplicable, and the unmarked attacking aircraft. Make it look like an Arab attack on a US ship. Good excuse for US intervention.

How the plan unravelled and how it became known that Israeli planes carried out the attack, I do not know. All I am doing is suggesting a possible reason for the attack.

Hun,

With all due respect, you are dead wrong in your belief that the attack on the Liberty was a "tragic mistake".  On the contrary, it was a well planned and well executed attack on a United States Navy ship operating in international waters.  Although the Israelis did not succeed in taking or sinking Liberty, they did achieve their primary goal, that of a "mission kill", by destroying the Liberty's ability to carry out her primary mission, that of military intelligence gathering.

WRT your assertion that the United States Navy did not respond by, "sending fighters":  The 6th Fleet DID send fighters.  Well...to be perfectly accurate, the planes were launched, then shortly afterwards, they were recalled.

When the FLASH messages began to come in from Liberty, the Commander, Sixth Fleet, Rear Admiral Lawrence R. Geis ordered what in Navy parlance is called a War at Sea strike from carrier USS AMERICA (CV 66).  The strike package consisted of tactical bombers (to take care of the Israeli patrol torpedo boats) plus F-8 Crusaders and F-4 Phantom fighters to engage the Israeli planes.

Subsequent to the launch, the planes were recalled to the ship.  This is fact and simply not open to argument.  There are hundreds of retired and former Navy sailors still alive that can corroborate this.  The question is...why?  Why were they launched in the first place...and then why were they recalled?

While the planes were outbound, RADM Geis was on the secure radio with the National Command Authority (NCA) in the White House situation room; the President, Secretary McNamara and others of their staffs.  As soon as RADM Geis told McNamara of his intentions to defend Liberty with force, McNamara ordered him to recall the aircraft immediately.  RADM Geis, stunned at this response, requested confirmation.  At this point, President Johnson got on the radio and confirmed the order.  The exact words are open to discussion, the confirmation order is not.  The planes were recalled.  Shortly thereafter, Navy and state department security officers (called SSOs) visited survivors of the ship and with RADM Geis and his staff.  Certain details of the events were classified Top Secret (probably "code word" too, ensuring even tighter control) and all officers and men with any knowledge of the events were sworn to secrecy.  The terms of these sessions are explicit and carry heavy sanctions for unauthorized disclosure.  If, and only if, the information is ever declassified, then the participants who have been sworn may discuss the details of the subject matter.  In the case of the attack on Liberty, the facts remain classified.  That is why RADM Geis never discussed the details of his conversation with the president and secretary of defense until he was on his deathbed.  That is a little bomb that most folks fail to understand.  That is why his revelations are so important.

Finally, you might read some of the court of inquiry transcripts.  As an attorney, you might be interested to hear just what the American survivors had to say about it.

One more point:  Why has our congress never conducted a detailed investigation?  When we lost the Pueblo to North Korean pirates in January 1968, the congresskritters had every naval officer in sight up on the hill answering questions.  Why not with Liberty?

Lastly Hun...it really is OK to be a strong advocate of Israel and still accept that what they did was purposeful and deliberate...just a bit of realpolitik.

You are a lucky man, Garandman.

Because still now I can't put a list on this post of HOW MANY times US Army, Navy or Air Force shot on their own troops. And those troops were wearing US uniforms, displaying US insiginas, hoisiting US flags.

The difference is that when is Israel doing it, the fact for YOU changes from "by mistake" to "deliberate". The truth is that you are biased.

Don't be so certain Eric, actually the Dutch were our best bankers, and we had a HELL of a time getting the Frogs to blockade the brits..

Absolute bullseye on ETH. I've just read this entire thread, and no combination of words could wrap up my sentiments better than what Jesred has said here.

This "Erics political/religious agenda at any cost" has clearly become a pattern around here. Not too long ago I wrote a very 2 sided, unbiased reply to a thread regarding the Israeli/Palistinian conflict, specifically the tank that was recently blown up. I simply stated that I wouldn't expect the Isreali's to roll over or pack up and leave, and I also wouldn't expect the Palistinians to stop killing Israeli's either. I closed by stating that it's life and death for BOTH sides. ETH's response was to go for the throat in defense of Israel with zero provocation or reason to do so(other than of course his agenda, and inserting it at every possible opportunity).

Of course the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd labels anyone who isn't waving the Israeli flag with them as an anti-semite.

ETH, correct me if I'm wrong(I realize you need no invitation to do so, you attempt to even when I clearly am not wrong), but does this blind loyalty to Israel tie in at all with the fact that you are EXTREMELY religious, and Israel being the land of Jesus, and Jesus being a Jew tints every single thread you reply to regarding Israeli issues? Rhetorical question obviously, your comments as well as the choice of photos you keep in your member profile are more than the explanation that is all too obvious by now(not to mention the results of a search of topics started by you or replied to by you yields an onslaught of wo-is-Isreal/look how wonderful Isreal is threads.) To argue through logic is one thing, to agrue with facts as well....but everything you type on this board is pro-Israel, so to suggest that you are unbiased in your defense of Israel is absurd. I go further to say that your support is so devout that it blinds you to Israels most glaring flaws, and clearly removes all intellectual credibility from those threads on the subject you reply to.

The "Israel didn't know the USS Liberty was an American vessel" runs in direct defiance of the simplist logic. The attempted defenses posed here by some regarding this subject can only lead to one possible explanation for such gross illogic, and that is extreme blind bias for Israel based on personal beliefs unrelated to the recognition of the ugly truth of this matter.

Again BS
McNamara ad others including the crypto guy admitted the intercepts being conducted were on Egypt NOT Israel. The US had land stations better positioned for intercepts of Israeli communications.

Another thing everyone has failed to mention. The Israelis sank every Egyptian boat they could find that day. The liberty was 30 miles off the Egyptian coast – the fighter jockeys saw it and attacked.  

As soon as the Israeli pilots saw the bow markings "CTR-5" the attack ceased. They reported it and were ordered to begin rescue operations.

Shit, anyone can type "USS Liberty" into any search engine and look at what I’m looking at.

STOP the bus. Paul, in reading your posts I quickly saw you had some expertise in the subject of Naval surface & air combat. Went to your web site, and it seems to be about ENLISTED quals., for your rating. Your post mentions you were "R" division officer on the Lincoln. I would think this would be occupied by at least a Lt., maybe even a Lcdr. Just to clear this up for me, which were you? Occifer, or enlisted? Thanks... OH, can you send or post a link to the survivors web site you mentioned please??

Eric, I've asked this several times, in previous threads, perhaps you havent seen.

Are you a messianic jew??

Post from Liberty86 -

Lord sakes, no m'boy! I'm a [u]Messianic[/u] Christian, who is not the least bit perturbed for being mistaken for a Jew!

Considering that I think that the Greatest Jew Who ever lived and Who was likewise the Greatest Christian Who ever lived, was Jesus, the Greatest Rabbi Who ever taught, and the Greatest Man Who ever lived, then if anyone mistakes me for a Jew has not sleighted me in my mind.

Sorry if I haven't answered you before! But I've stated my beliefs on a whole lotta threads!

Eric The(Messianic)Hun[>]:)]

Post from critter_FR -

[b]They don't call this the 'Six Day War' for nothing, critter_FR! They din't have weeks or even days to conspire such a fantastic plot![/b]

Doesn't it trouble you just a bit that not only have you alleged that Israel is acting as the Great Satan in this event, but that the US is equally guilty of sacrificing American sailors and Pentagon personnel for such a hare-brained PR scheme as you've posited?

There was simply no reason that by June 8, 1967, the Israelis or the Americans needed to carry out such a hare-brained PR scheme!

So why did they?

Good Lord, boy, do you seriously think that on June 8, 1967, the Israelis were so desparate for help in their war against the Arabs that they needed [b]US Intervention?[/b]

US intervention on or after that date would be the very last thing the Israelis wanted! It would have meant having the US dole out the door prizes for the Six Day War, and Israel, with all the prizes it could have dreamed for safely in its hands or within its grasp, was not going to let that happen!

By June 7, 1967, all resistance by Egyptian and Jordanian forces had ceased and the only thing left for the IDF to do was to attack the Golan Heights, which it promptly did and just as promptly won! On June 9, 1967, the Israelis agreed to an immediate cease-fire in place offered by the UN, which the Arabs accepted finally on June 10, 1967!

Israel didn't need or want US intervention at all during this war, and most certainly didn't want any intervention on or after June 8, 1967.

But unless the USS Liberty went to the bottom with all hands, before putting out a radio message that it was under attack by IAF planes, that fact would come out in subsequent after-action reports by the surviving members of the ship's crew!

'So what did the attacking aircraft look like? Here's a picture of a Mig, here's a picture of a Dassault Mirage and a Dassault Mystere. Which did it look like?', the interrogator queried.

Now if the IAF were flying captured Egyptian Migs during the attack.....hmmmmm.

Eric The(MaybeYouCanStartACottageIndustryOnThat!)Hun[>]:)]

[url]http://www.ussliberty.org[/url]

DaMan

Post from LWilde -

O.K., Lwilde, I'm with you so far. Now tell me just what 'military intelligence gathering' by the USS Liberty that the Israelis were so desperate to destroy?

In your view please answer this: What was the USS Liberty actually doing?  What did the Israelis actually think it was doing?

Did the Israelis think it was spying on them, or did they know that it was spying on the Soviets?

When LBJ and his advisors first heard of the attack by 'unidentified aircraft' on the spy ship, USS Liberty, they consulted their Naval folks - where the hell is the USS Liberty, we were telling everyone there wasn't a US ship for 100 miles off the coast!

Holy hell! It must be the Soviets that are attacking our ship!

That is the reason that the first squadron and the second squadron sent from the aircraft carrier in the Sixth Fleet were recalled by the 'highest levels' of civilian government!

LBJ and his advisors thought it was a Soviet attack against a US spy ship that was in the area in which Soviet aircraft and, as we now know, individual Soviet air force personnel were operating!

On page 1, of this thread, I stated:

I asked this question because any fool would see that Israel could not be assured that what actually happened, would not happen.

[b]How did you miss that?[/b]

True to form, the USS Liberty radioed 'mayday' distress calls and the Sixth Fleet sent two squadrons, both of which were recalled by orders from the White House.

And again, on Page 1, Lwilde, I stated:

So once again on the same page I specifically mentioned the sending of the two rescue squadrons and their immediate recalls!

[b]How did you miss that?[/b]

How could the Israelis have foreseen the recall of [u]both[/u] squadrons? Or any squadron? Even the next day?

Wouldn't they be expecting a visit from F-4s in the very near future?  Yet they still permitted their torpedo boats to move in for the kill, almost a hour after the distress calls went out!

- continued -

On page 2 of this thread, I stated:

I'm again referring to the sending and the recalling of the two squadrons from the Sixth Fleet!

And yet again on Page 2, I stated:

So once again I make specific mention of the sending and recalling of the two rescue squadrons. Aren't you getting a little tired of my having to go back and remind you of these statements of mine? I know I am!

Good, no, a [u]great[/u] question! I've asked it, what, four times in this thread alone. Glad to see you're on board!

But please don't accuse me of overlooking that fact! Sheesh!

- continued -

Yes, indeed, here is the first one by the USS Liberty's Commanding Officer McGonagle at the Court of Inquiry:

“The boats appeared to be in a wedge type formation with the center boat the lead point of the wedge.  Estimated speed of the boats was about 27 to 30 knots.  They appeared to be about 150 to 200 yards apart.  It appeared that they were approaching the ship in a torpedo launch attitude, and since I did not have direct communication with gun control or the gun mounts, I told a man from the bridge, whose identity I do not recall, to proceed to mount 51 and take the boats under fire.  The boats continued to approach the ship at high speed and on a constant bearing with decreasing range.  About this time I noticed that our Ensign had been shot away during the air attack and ordered [sic] DAVID, signalman, to hoist a second Ensign from the yardarm...  When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was signaling [sic] to us.  Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israeli [sic] flag.  This was later verified.  It was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames.  At this time, I yelled to machinegun 51 to tell him to hold fire.  I realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli [sic] and the attack had been conducted in error.  I wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries. The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do.  Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat.  From the starboard wing of the bridge, 03 level, I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat.  It was not possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge.  I sent Mr. LUCAS around the port side of the bridge, around to the skylights, to see if he could tell QUINTERO, whom I believed to be the gunner on machine gun 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation.  He reported back in a few minutes in effect that he saw no one at mount 53.  As far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they were under fire from USS LIBERTY.  At this time, they opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds, one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the ship at about 25 yards.  The time that this torpedo crossed the stern is believed to be about 1426.  About 1427, without advance warning, the ship sustained a torpedo hit starboard side forward.”

[b]Sure sounds like a case of mistaken identity to me![/b] But I am predisposed to that position, what do you think?

You don't supposed he lied, did he? I don't, I believe he was telling the pure, unvarnished
truth!

You, however, must positively believe that he purposefully lied to cover up either Israel's treachery, or the treachery of both Israel and the US!

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

So what does CO McGonagle tell us in his sworn testimony before the US Naval Court of Inquiry, given at a time when the events are freshest in his mind:

1. 'It appeared that they were approaching the ship in a torpedo launch attitude, and since I did not have direct communication with gun control or the gun mounts, I told a man from the bridge, whose identity I do not recall, to proceed to mount 51 and take the boats under fire.'

[b]An order was given by the CO to take the Israeli torpedo boats under fire![/b]

2. 'About this time I noticed that our Ensign had been shot away during the air attack and ordered [sic] DAVID, signalman, to hoist a second Ensign from the yardarm...'

[b]The US ensign had been shot away and was not visible to the Israeli torpedo boats.[/b]

3. 'When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was signaling [sic] to us.'

[b]The Israeli torpedo boats requested that the USS Liberty identify itself.[/b] (This from the testimony of the Israeli torpedo squadron commander)

4. 'Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israeli [sic] flag. This was later verified. It was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames.'

[b]The CO had as difficult a time seeing any Israeli ensign or signals as the Israelis must have had in clearly seeing the US ensign.[/b]

5. 'At this time, I yelled to machinegun 51 to tell him to hold fire.'

[b]The USS Liberty fired upon the Israeli torpedo boats.[/b]

6. 'I realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli [sic] and the attack had been conducted in error. I wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries.'

[b]Possibility that the attack was in error is admitted by the CO.[/b]

7. 'The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do.'

[b]Israeli torpedo boats were fired upon by the USS Liberty.[/b]

8. 'Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat.'

[b]The Israeli torpedo boats are being fired on from two separate positions aboard the USS Liberty.[/b]

- continued -

9. 'From the starboard wing of the bridge, 03 level, I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat.'

[b]The 50 cal machine gun fire from the USS Liberty bracketed the center Israeli torpedo boat, which happened to be the command boat.[/b]

10. 'It was not possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. I sent Mr. LUCAS around the port side of the bridge, around to the skylights, to see if he could tell QUINTERO, whom I believed to be the gunner on machine gun 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation.'

[b]Clarifying the situation was necessary for the CO aboard the USS Liberty.[/b]

11. 'As far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they were under fire from USS LIBERTY.'

[b]The CO of the USS Liberty admitted that the Israeli torpedo boats could have reasonably believed that the ship was hostile and was a just and proper target.[/b]

12. 'At this time, they opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds, one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the ship at about 25 yards. The time that this torpedo crossed the stern is believed to be about 1426. About 1427, without advance warning, the ship sustained a torpedo hit starboard side forward.'

[b]The Israelis held their fire until (1) there was no response to their signals, and (2) there was hostile fire from the USS Liberty.[/b]

If the Israeli torpedo boats were sent on a seqarch and destroy mission, to 'finish off' a troublesome, meddling, unwanted US spy ship that had already been crippled by IAF strafing and napalm hits, why this 'dance of death'?

Why the hesitancy on the part of the ruthless Israeli commander?

Why the 'identify yourself' request?

Why the later breaking off of the attack when the non-Arabic letters are discovered by one of the Isreali torpedo boats?

Why the offer of assistance by the Israelis that CO McGonagle later testified to in this same inquiry?

Why was the US Naval attache from Tel Aviv flown by Israeli helicopter to the stricken ship?

Answer these questions satisfactorily and I'll give you perhaps a dozen more!

Eric The(BelieveTheFirstResponse)Hun[>]:)]

Predisposed? That's a friggin' understatement. I'd say fanatically driven would come closer to the truth. Much closer.

Just curious about your writing style here ETH. I notice that at about 2/3 of all of your sentences end with an exclamation point. Do these words come to you as some sort of revelation that require such intense puctuation? Do you actually speak like that in person?

Eric, get your MODERATOR crap together! [:P]

BTW, folks, CO McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions in connection with this attack.  See the citation, etc., here:[url]http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-m/w-mcgngl.htm[/url]

Post from M4 -

Must be a very good thing to be a friend of ETH! You see how I will always defend my friends. Fanatically! Yes, indeed.

I'm actually standing on my chair while I type this reply - does that give you any hint at my level of emotion?[:D]

If I actually thought the 'perfidious Jews' had hatched a plot against a US ship, under the situation that you believe, I would not be able to restrain myself.

I, too, would be hateful of anything Israeli!

I would oppose every sheckel that we give them.

But I would do it quitely and without fanfare, because, for better or worse, they're the ally we depend on in the Middle East!

See my previous threads on US-Israeli military cooperation.

Eric The(Well,YouKnow)Hun[>]:)]

I gotta confess Eric, seeing in my minds eye you standing on your chair furiously typing away, beard jutting out......well, you know... G'night all.... OH, what I meant by Messianic jew, is, a christian who accepted Christ first, then observes mosaic law, not a saved jew........

Post from liberty86 -

But, I know a lot of messianic Jews and that's not how they describe themselves.

They would described themselves as observant, orthodox (for the most part) Jews who have accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Jewish Messiah.

They observe Christian sacraments of water baptism of adult Believers, and a memorial feast or communion of bread and wine.

And then all of the typically Jewish laws and traditions on top of that!

Mens' heads covered with yarmulkes or hats during worship services.  Some dietary laws.
All of the High Holy Days and traditional Jewish celebrations, as well as Bar and Bat Mitzvahs.

So, tell me any of my Jewish friends, is this how you would describe messianic Jews?

Eric The(OrWouldYouNotEvenConsiderThemJewsAnyLonger?)Hun[>]:)]

[b]DaMan?[/b] Are you trying to say something to me?

You seem to be stuttering with posting my comments to LWilde over and over again?

Do you need any help?

Eric The(OrWhat?)Hun[>]:)]

Can't figure out why your post came up accredited to me!  I want nothing to do with your crap!

You're the moderator!  Figure it out!

DaMan

So, in the breath after you make a point of noting that it wasn't you who accused anyone of anti-Semitism, you accuse me of anti-Semitism. Very carefully couched and fully deniable, but plain to see nonetheless. Well done.

If I genuinely believe what I believe, it must be because I am an evil bastard who wants to add to the Holocaust. If you genuinely believe what you believe, it's because you're good and pure as the driven snow. Thanks for clearing that up.

An interesting question didn't get addressed, I noticed. LWilde, a man with a little experience in things naval, mentioned that officers and men of the Liberty were sworn to silence and the events of that day were classified Top Secret.

[b]Why would an accident have to be classified Top Secret, and men expected to take their first hand experiences to their graves with them?[/b]

A single bomb or missile can be written off as an accident. [b]What do you call a coordinated, concentrated 75 minute air/sea assault after hours of aerial reconnaisance overflights?[/b]



Yeah, many overflights and 75 minutes of torpedo, napalm and machinegun attack into the event, they suddenly noticed the freshly painted, bright white six foot high letters on the hull and realized their error, breaking off the attack and ending their gun runs on the sailors in the lifeboats. Thank God they realized their error in time.

[url]http://www.ussliberty.org[/url]

DaMan

Post from Jarhead_22 -

How on earth did I accuse you of anti-semitism?
As I've said countless times, over and over, ad nauseum, the very word 'anti-semitism' is not one that I ever use.

I simply said that a great deal of the complaints against every single blessed thing that the State of Israel does [u]may[/u] be motivated by hatred, pure and simple.

I never counted [b]you[/b] to be one of the ones who saw everything Israel did as something to complain about - the only problems I ever recall you having against Israel concern either the USS Liberty incident or the Jonathan Pollard espionage case.

Maybe you don't know me as well as you think, for if I thought you were truly anti-semitic, I would not hem and haw about it. I wouldn't say it out loud though, but we wouldn't be having this discussion either!

And it matters to me what you think about any subject, including the USS Liberty and Pollard!

Why? Because I value your opinion on such topics, and others.

We may disagree on the USS Liberty, but I would never think it due to anti-semitism on your part.

Do you think that I consider everyone who has a question or two about the USS Liberty to be an anti-semitic person for that reason alone?

Lord, how shallow you must think I am!

Sorry, Sir, but you have seriously misread me.

Eric The(TerriblyMisreadMe,IMightAdd)Hun[>]:)]

Post from DaMan -

Nor would I desire that anything I posted be credited to you, DaMan. Seriously!

So your hand must have trembled for some unknown reason and you 'blew' your post!

Eric The(Careful,Now!)Hun[>]:)]

You split a very fine hair, my friend.

Post from DaMan -

Sorry, DaMan, but I haven't touched my 'mod' buttons since I 'tacked' a3kid's prayer request several days ago!

And for what miserable reason would I want to have you posting my material?

To have someone think that you were converted to Hundom?

That, as you would readily admit, would be a slap to both our faces!

Get a grip on your mouse![:D]

Eric The(Suspicious)Hun[>]:)]

E.T. Hun' obviously I cannot speak for the Lord but 'I' do not believe you to be shallow.

However, when you defend every action by Israel; even those against your own country (the USA not Texas) I do believe your credibility suffers.

I desire no flames but I'm beginning to fear that on the subject of the USS Liberty you are at best naive ?

ETH, I never said I hated everything Israeli. For the record I do not. I simply do not blindly side with them, based on biblical reasoning of all things. That is obviously a cornerstone connection to your devotion to Israeli issues. It also appears to cloud your judgement in the sense that your personal religious beliefs translate to unyielding and seemingly blind loyalty to all things Israeli despite any facts that might pose as an obstacle to such devotion in the eyes of an unbiased observer.

The problem people run in to when they feel they've cornered the market on the truth is the fact that from then on they never allow themselves to see or honestly scrutinize other possibilities. Blind devotion creates an intellectual cripple.

There isn't a person or nation that can do no wrong......Israel included. If that notion was ever expressed by you I think it would add some credibility to your possition. It's an indication of a balanced thought process, rather than a thought process that is forever filtered through a strong personal bias. Being appropriately critical of those things we love, when that time arrives, is one of the highest honors we can pay to ourselves and to that which we know could and should be better.

Post from 5subslr5 -

That is truly a shame, because I value both your opinion and Jarhead_22's as well. And I had hoped you valued mine.

On the sole issue of the USS Liberty we are quite a ways apart. I know that you are just as well read on this incident as anyone could be. So I'm not pointing out website after website that supports my view - I assume you know all the countervailing arguments.

Now, let me ask you point blank - is there no, repeat, no chance that the attack was anything but deliberate?

You can see from the excerpt of CO McGonagle's testimony that even he allowed, and even embraced, the view that the attack was a mistake by Israel.

Is that totally not possible in subsailor's
world view?

At best naive? Then at worst, what? Traitorous?
Unpatriotic? Stupid?

Again, there is [b]no[/b] possibility that the attack was a 'tragic mistake' carried out in the fog of war?

Eric The(None?)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Jarhead_22 -

Nonsense, Jarhead_22, who said anything so preposterous as that? Not I!

Nor do I believe that I am as pure as the driven snow. Far from it.

But the really good thing is that it doesn't matter for the purpose of discussing these events that you be without sin, or that I be
pure. The events are factual matters that can be argued by saint and sinner alike!

I don't question [u]your[/u] motives about why you believe the way you do. There is plenty of factual evidence that supports your position.

Do you question my motives? There is plenty of factual evidence that supports my position.

That's why I love these USS Liberty threads! Not.

But I won't abandon my friends under [u]any[/u] circumstances!

If I did, what kind of friend would I be?

An interesting question didn't get addressed, I noticed. LWilde, a man with a little experience in things naval, mentioned that officers and men of the Liberty were sworn to silence and the events of that day were classified Top Secret.

View Quote

There are too many questions in this thread to answer all questions - Lord knows I've put out quite a few as-yet-unanswered questions, myself!

But the answer as to why the officers and men were sworn to silence and the events of that day classified as top secret is quite obvious -
it was an extremely embarrassing event for both the US and for Israel!

Yes, but those officers and men didn't stay silent for long now, did they? And the books, logs, intercepts, communiques, letters, dispatches, memoranda, telegrams, and just about every other item of evidence has long seen the light of day by now.

Hell, by 1997, everything of any importance to these issues had long since been released.

What do you think is still being kept secret?

Eric The(Inquisitive)Hun[>]:)]