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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:19:38 PM EDT
[#1]
There are certain fundamental, human rights that I consider to be given to us from God. The right to self preservation/defense is one.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:20:57 PM EDT
[#2]
The Constitution providing "rights" to "citizens" does not apply to illegals...besides, we don't know what god they worship.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:29:08 PM EDT
[#3]
actually they would be rolling in their grave over an American thinking that unalienable (which means not able to be revoked) means "given by God" |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:31:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry. -- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 2:545 Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason. -- Thomas Jefferson, to James Sullivan, 1797. ME 9:379 Just showing that I can cherry pick quotes to prove exactly the opposite of what you say. It is why cherry picking quotes is looked down upon by most people... |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:38:10 PM EDT
[#5]
+1 and
+1 Personaly I don't believe in a god or gods except in that nature itself is god (with power over us all). If they'res and "old man sitting on a throne" that gave us all those rights I'd like to know where he was before 1787 and why he isn't striking down the people trying so hard to take them away. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:42:58 PM EDT
[#6]
O_P, I also took issue with XX's statement, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to it (much more eloquently than I, might I add), as well. <edit>Actually, looking back, I didn't respond to XX's post, but I know that I responded to someone's almost identical post on another thread today.  </edit>I would only offer one correction, and it's on a point that my favorite prof *ever* (a ConLaw prof, nonetheless) skewered me on more than a few yrs back: "But you can't holler 'fire' in a crowded theater". Actually, it states that you can't *falsely* yell "fire" in a crowded theater. 
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Posted: 3/31/2006 12:46:51 PM EDT
[#7]
I don't believe in God, though I believe in the rights of man- The right to own property, the right to be free to engage in any activity or contract as long as the activity or contract does not restrict the rights of others to own property, the right to persue happiness or infringe on other liberties and the right to self defense.
Firearms ownership falls within the right to property, the right to persue happiness and the right to self defense. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:12:33 PM EDT
[#8]
I agree....well stated...as for the content, I completely disagree. Incredible bias and Christian tunnel vision, but the sentiment seems to at least come from a good man. That's good enough for me. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:21:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Except that you, as usual, failed miserably. Even though it is a concept beyond your limited ability to grasp, Thomas Jefferson's belief in the metaphysical origin of rights can and did co-exist with his distrust of religion. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:25:50 PM EDT
[#10]
No problem. 
I freely admit that.
I am proud if that is the case.
Thanks for the kind words. When we gonna go shooting?  |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:26:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Well, that is your opinion, an opionion of a professed atheist, and, as usual, one that happens to be wrong. We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:28:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Good old Dino. "Often wrong, but never in doubt." |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:31:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Methinks that everyone has right to defend themselves against the violations of another person, including illegals. However,
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:31:38 PM EDT
[#14]
God does not only grant us the right to defend ourselves and others but He also places on us, the duty to defend ourselves and others.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:34:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Yes. Ownership of your life includes the right to aquire the tools necessary to keep others fro mtaking said life from you.
As for this: Should illegal "aliens" be allowed to "own" guns in the US? Yes as well. However, since they are INVADING our Country, in effect tresspassing on our property, then they should be dealt with accordingly. It isn't the owning of guns that would make them a criminal, but the tresspass. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:37:01 PM EDT
[#16]
I can describe a donut as both round and sweet. That doesn't make round and sweet synonyms. If you parse the statement above you get that God gave us those unalienable (not able to be revoked) rights. I may not agree with the sentiment, but I am able to discern that unalienable does not mean God given as OP stated. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:37:30 PM EDT
[#17]
"God given right" is just a phrase. Theres no *proof* that God even exists, let alone gives you the right to own any gun at all.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:40:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Sorry, were you trying to say less than nothing here? 'Cause, congrats. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:41:31 PM EDT
[#19]
All rights are "natural" or "God-given" rights.
The Constitution doesn't define any of the People's rights nor does it grant any rights to anyone but the Federal Government. It does not grant the government the right to regulate the ownership of weapons. Therefore, any laws the Federal Government enacts that do so are unconstitutional. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:42:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Your statement was factually incorrect. Either through being in a hurry, bias, or just plain old ignorance. I'm betting on either being hurried or a bias, because I have yet to find anything that makes me believe you or Belloc are stupid. Its too bad you can't be honest enough to at least give me the same respect. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:46:22 PM EDT
[#21]
I guess you missed the little smilie.It was meant to indicate that I was just "picking at you" or joking. Seems you took it as an insult. I therefore apologize and assure you that I meant no offense. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 1:50:20 PM EDT
[#22]
I have come to know you as a man who can take, and give, a little sport. It is clear, at least to me, that this was not with viciousness intended. If one cannot rib ones friends for rooting for the other team is does make their company rather less stimulating. 
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Posted: 3/31/2006 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#23]
It's easy to resolve: try to take them and you can ask God yourself.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 4:06:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Hmmm alot of them have been taken. What has God done? |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 4:07:03 PM EDT
[#25]
it is a right specifically reserved by the people of the united states.
"god" doesnt give us anything. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 4:28:36 PM EDT
[#26]
The folks at Lexington & Concord believed they had the right to bear arms over a year before there ever was a "united states". |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 4:32:02 PM EDT
[#27]
You're confusing "rights" with "powers". Government has no "rights", only specific powers delegated to it under the Consitution. People have various "rights", some are Civil Rights, some are Natural ("God-given") rights. See my post on the previous page for more. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 4:33:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Only a statement in the Constitution that can be interpreted and/or amended out of existance. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 6:29:41 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 3/31/2006 6:50:24 PM EDT
[#30]
The only rights you have are those you reserve for yourself.
No man can grant them, no document, no higher power will enforce them. It's on you. A firearm gives you the means to resist any attempt to infringe on your rights, nothing else will do. Of course, you also have to be willing to kill or be killed rather than be coerced.... |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 7:00:19 PM EDT
[#31]
I've got a feeling that was where tc was going with that to begin with. Does tc care to elaborate? |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 7:19:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Heh... tell that to the Americans living on reservations who were put there by immigrants.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 8:01:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Explain to me the difference between the right to do something and the power to do something, then. If the government doesn't have the right to do something, then they don't have the legal power to do something. Those powers are the ones WE delegated to it. Those are rights we GAVE UP and handed over to the Federal Government in the Constitution. I think its risky to differentiate between "civil rights" and "natural rights." Everything is your right unless that right has specifically been handed over to the government via the Constitution. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 8:34:24 PM EDT
[#34]
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..." Also read the US Constitution and you will see that each and every instance of the word "right" is associated with people and the word "power" with some branch or level of Gov't. Every single instance. The Founding Fathers were very deliberate in separating those two concepts. Rights are possessed by people, they ascribe ownership of the ability to do some act or be in some condition. Powers are granted to Gov't by the people when they agree to temporarily cede to Gov't the ability to protect their rights which they may not individually be able to protect well enough for themselves.
There are different "rights" - some require ANOTHER PERSON to act or consent in order for you to exercise them, therefore you must both AGREE and COOPERATE to carry out that act or else YOU as an individual cannot exercise that right. Hence it's a "civil right" because you must have a person, people or society agree to act on your behalf. Examples include the right to an attorney, the right to vote, the right to marry... etc. That is FAR different than you having the right to worship or speak your mind which requires the agreement and cooperation of no one but yourself. On the contrary, it is actually risky to NOT see that difference. Humanists and especially Leftists would LOVE to blur the line and erase the idea of "Natural Rights" - because then ALL rights would basically belong to the collective and require the consent of the collective for each individual to exercise. That is most clearly seen in the "collective right" view of the 2nd Amendment held by many gun-grabbing Leftists and mislead sheeple. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 8:46:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Real careful to separate the terms "powers" and "rights" in the constitution, huh?
How about Amendment X of the Bill of Rights? "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." I'm not a leftist or a humanist, either. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 8:50:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Notice the powers are reserved to the States... or to the people. Never are "rights" reserved to the States. The people possess and own ALL rights and ALL powers - but they agree to cede SOME powers to the Gov't. But NO rights are ceded to the Gov't.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 8:56:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Ok smarty pants. I'll admit you have a point there.
But do you know how to re-engage the sear spring onto the sear on a Browning 1919 bolt? |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 9:00:15 PM EDT
[#38]
I tend to agree here. If you were to rip up and burn the constitution there would still be the will of the people to do what's right and defend themselves from agression foreign or domestically... The Bill Of Rights cannot be taken away from us because they were not given to us by the government. The founding fathers felt it was the 2nd most important thing after speaking your mind against the government. Pretty damn well important if you ask me. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 9:03:31 PM EDT
[#39]
No. Guns are dangerous. 
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Posted: 3/31/2006 9:10:46 PM EDT
[#40]
And we have many more rights than what are state in the BoR. |
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Posted: 3/31/2006 9:19:17 PM EDT
[#41]
God given right? . Perhaps it should be framed "is armed self defense a god given right?". Did not jesus in one of the 4 gospels command the few disicples who were still with him to arm themselves, or buy themselves weapons. What was the bad ass assault weapon of that day.....the roman short sword or some variation thereof.
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Posted: 3/31/2006 9:22:09 PM EDT
[#42]
no.....its not granted in the bible or any other religious text!
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Posted: 4/1/2006 12:55:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Others are carying on the discussion just fine. I've said what my take on it is. |
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Posted: 4/1/2006 6:48:36 AM EDT
[#44]
The greatest propaganda that our government has perpetrated is to get its "citizens" to think they still have rights. There are no rights anymore and haven't been for quite a few years, just a small amount of privileges the government allows the citizens to have. The Constitution and BOR are nothing more then a history footnote, they have no bearing on any "rights" you have as a US citizen. |
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Posted: 4/1/2006 7:49:32 AM EDT
[#45]
There are times when I do believe that.
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Posted: 4/1/2006 10:03:02 AM EDT
[#46]
IIRC, there were no [nat'l] laws preventing honkies from coming and settling in the states. |
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Posted: 4/1/2006 10:08:43 AM EDT
[#47]
But even without God, do you think people have a "Right" to own/possess firearms?
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Posted: 4/1/2006 4:08:28 PM EDT
[#48]
An absolute right in any and every possible situation or scenario? No. I think your average law abiding citizen should be able to possess just about any small arms out there, with more oversight for things like full auto. But carte blanche unrestrsicted possession of anything by everyone? Nope. |
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Posted: 4/1/2006 7:30:07 PM EDT
[#49]
That's actually a bit further than I ever expected you to go........ the "winkie" meant I was really just funnin' with you. You've got a rep for being a bit of a statist, and your responses sometimes seem to validate that, *and* you said you were pretty much done talking on this point, so I thought I'd just rib you a bit on my way out. But in all seriousness, thanks for the answer. While not as libertine as I'd *like* to hear, your answer [in the general] doesn't seem to be any more confiscatory or restrictive than the SCOTUS, which is something I "like" to hear from LEOs (I'd *prefer* to hear a little differently, but that's just me ).I probably shouldn't ask you to get any more specific (at least not in this thread). I'll just thank you and move along for now, unless you'd like/care to elaborate any further.
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Posted: 4/1/2006 7:58:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Yes, and Yes
On principle alone--I think 'illegal' aliens should be allowed to own a firearm--but if they go armed w/ the intent to commit a crime--get a rope. I know that said alien is already a 'criminal', but that is b/c of color of law--pretty soon we all (gun owners) may very well be felons for owning. |
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