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Posted: 6/13/2002 12:41:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Rik: it depends on what you think the key distinction is. You are saying it is whether he is an enemy combatant or not. DK is saying the distinctions is whether or not he is a citizen. Whether enemy POW are presumed innocent is not really the point - they were not US citizens. Wanna bet? There were Americans of German ancestry who travelled to Germany prior to 1941 and joined the military. And of course in the Civil War, ALL the POWs were US citizens...though they didn't want to be anymore. Whether you buy yours or DK's theory, foreign POWs can be held indefinately. The issue is whether citizens - whether they are POWs or not - can be. They have been before. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 12:51:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: There were Americans of German ancestry who travelled to Germany prior to 1941 and joined the military. And of course in the Civil War, ALL the POWs were US citizens...though they didn't want to be anymore. The civil war is not relevant. Habeas corpus was suspended, as the constitution provides during times of rebellion. The 1941 case was about military tribunals, not holding people without trial. And it is an old case, with some more recent cases having contrary logic. |
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Posted: 6/13/2002 7:07:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: The civil war is not relevant. Habeas corpus was suspended, as the constitution provides during times of rebellion. Hmmm...how many Americans have to turn traitor and try to help a foreign enemy before it's considered a rebellion? The 1941 case was about military tribunals, not holding people without trial. And it is an old case, with some more recent cases having contrary logic. I guess we'll see what the Supremes say...but that ain't the question. The question is whether it's right or not. And I think it is. |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 5:58:51 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: Believe it or not, military judges and juries aren't inherently evil. History demonstrates that the contrary is true. Military tribunuals trying civilians are a sure sign of tyranny..... Show me where "history" demonstrates this. I was a "judge" in the military. I was the Judge, jury, defense and prosecutor in a "Special Court-Martial", many officers are given this duty. Does that mean that I'm evil, too? |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 6:05:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Yeah, I'll join the ACLU when [b]Jesus Christ[/b] tells me to join the ACLU, and He hates their guts![:D] So this POS is worth losing sleep over? We must just agree to disagree on this one, buddy! My 'fear of government' radar hasn't gone off on this one, and it's a finely tuned mechanism! If this POS actively plotted this crime in Pakistan or elsewhere, I say save the time and effort for a trial and send him back there for trial and imprisonment. Same as we should do for 'Jihad Johnny' Walker. I would much rather see these POSs getting Islamic justice, which they so doggedly served during their adult lives, than good old US due process, which they actively fought against! Eric The(ThisIsWar,Baby!)Hun[>]:)] WORDS OF WISDOM MY FRIEND, WORDS OF WISDOM!! AB |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 7:02:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Padilla isn't a civilian. therein lies the essential question. this needs to be determined by the courts, not by john ashcroft. [b]THEN[/b] we can proceed with determining jurisdiction, pressing charges of conspiracy and/or treason, and seeking conviction and vivisection (er, sentencing). i would like to add that i am highly impressed by much of the discussion that has transpired here in the last page or so. even though i disagree with some of it's conclusions, it is well informed, carefully considered and well presented, unlike the pointless tripe that some of our pontificators endlessly spout. thank you, gentlemen! |
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Posted: 6/14/2002 7:13:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: i would like to add that i am highly impressed by much of the discussion that has transpired here in the last page or so. even though i disagree with some of it's conclusions, it is well informed, carefully considered and well presented, unlike the pointless tripe that some of our pontificators endlessly spout. thank you, gentlemen! I would just like to second that! Despite the somewhat inflamatory title of this thread, I am so impressed that even though we disagree strongly, none of us have resorted to the flaming and name-calling that these things sometimes degenerate into. Thanks for a great discussion so far - I know I've learned a lot - even if I haven't been convinced yet. |
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