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I posted this in the SIG P320 video thread but this is probably the more appropriate place. If anybody has proposed this already I'm joining in. If it hasn't been proposed yet, I'm calling it now. . . . . This was a setup. Whatever the Wyoming Gun Project guy did to get the trigger to only partially engage, Alex Pretti did to his gun. Think about what the Demonrat talking point was for at least a week leading up to the Alex Pretti shooting. "ICE agents arent trained!!!!!" "They aren't quallified!!!!" The left never emphasize something without having a some con or next story in the works to feed the narrative. That dumbass manipulated his Sig to fail in the exact same manner as the Wyoming Gun Project did on camera then went out and confronted federal agents so one would disarm him and then have a accidental discharge while other anti ICE antifa goons video'd. I don't believe he intended to get himself shot. I think he hoped an ICE agent might shoot himself during the AD. When they dump the history in his phone and on his PC I'm betting dollars to donuts he watched that Wyoming Gun Project video. |
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Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I’m trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? No, it’s not a justification. But it adds to the totality of circumstances that would help a reasonable person decide if this was a crime by any of the officers, or rather a tragic sequence of events. Legal and justified aren’t necessarily the same thing. |
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Quoted: I posted this in the SIG P320 video thread but this is probably the more appropriate place. If anybody has proposed this already I'm joining in. If it hasn't been proposed yet, I'm calling it now. . . . . This was a setup. Whatever the Wyoming Gun Project guy did to get the trigger to only partially engage, Alex Pretti did to his gun. Think about what the Demonrat talking point was for at least a week leading up to the Alex Pretti shooting. "ICE agents arent trained!!!!!" "They aren't quallified!!!!" The left never emphasize something without having a some con or next story in the works to feed the narrative. That dumbass manipulated his Sig to fail in the exact same manner as the Wyoming Gun Project did on camera then went out and confronted federal agents so one would disarm him and then have a accidental discharge while other anti ICE antifa goons video'd. I don't believe he intended to get himself shot. I think he hoped an ICE agent might shoot himself during the AD. When they dump the history in his phone and on his PC I'm betting dollars to donuts he watched that Wyoming Gun Project video. |
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Quoted: The video is crappy enough that we can't be 100% sure the gun discharged, much less that the trigger guard was 100% clear. If we try to chase absolutes, we'll come up empty handed. I'm 80-something percent sure the gun fired. I'm 80-something percent sure the agent was holding the pistol below the trigger guard. But I keep circling back to this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G_jJsQ4WsAAk_lZ?format=jpg&name=small Trump suddenly being aware of the P320's history is one piece of this quote. But I find "It's a gun that goes off when people don't know it" to be a curious statement. That could just be Trump speak, and I'm reading into something that isn't there. Or, Trump could have been making a redundant statement about the UD issue. Or, maybe Trump is telling us that the agent with the confiscated P320 didn't know it discharged in the chaos of the moment. I'm not sure how much it matters, but it could be an indication of what Trump is hearing from his people and what direction the investigation is going. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Absolutely Watch this one at 0.25x speed. You can definitely see the slide coming back. You can also hear the shot at the same time. I watched it earlier and thought it was so. After watching it at .25x, it's clear. And the agent is also clearly holding the gun way down on the grip, below the trigger guard.
Based off of visuals alone it is iffy as to whether it is the gun firing or just a convenient series of artifacts/visual noise in the video but the sound of a shot occurs at the same time as something appears to happen with the gun The sound, the arm movement subsequent, the muzzle oddly sweeping bystanders, yeah, the locus of points is that gun fired. Showing that a finger wasn't in the trigger guard, though? That's a level of detail that gets DCT'd away. Knees are completely squared, the trigger guard disappears in one frame, reappears in others, all sort of stuff. LE will be all like, "You can't see him pulling the trigger, therefore he didn't" but that's not real life. Real life is LE, the State, saying whatever they need to say. If LE had been shot, and this video was the only evidence of who shot the cop, you'd be a fool to think the Government doesn't have a rebuttal expert witness ready to come in and walk through the whole video compression thing to prove to a jury that just because the video doesn't show xyz, that doesn't mean xzy didn't happen. The video is crappy enough that we can't be 100% sure the gun discharged, much less that the trigger guard was 100% clear. If we try to chase absolutes, we'll come up empty handed. I'm 80-something percent sure the gun fired. I'm 80-something percent sure the agent was holding the pistol below the trigger guard. But I keep circling back to this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G_jJsQ4WsAAk_lZ?format=jpg&name=small Trump suddenly being aware of the P320's history is one piece of this quote. But I find "It's a gun that goes off when people don't know it" to be a curious statement. That could just be Trump speak, and I'm reading into something that isn't there. Or, Trump could have been making a redundant statement about the UD issue. Or, maybe Trump is telling us that the agent with the confiscated P320 didn't know it discharged in the chaos of the moment. I'm not sure how much it matters, but it could be an indication of what Trump is hearing from his people and what direction the investigation is going. This post is aging well. |
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Quoted: I've read a lot of really, profoundly stupid fucking things around here over the years, but this is on another level. Quoted: Quoted: I posted this in the SIG P320 video thread but this is probably the more appropriate place. If anybody has proposed this already I'm joining in. If it hasn't been proposed yet, I'm calling it now. . . . . This was a setup. Whatever the Wyoming Gun Project guy did to get the trigger to only partially engage, Alex Pretti did to his gun. Think about what the Demonrat talking point was for at least a week leading up to the Alex Pretti shooting. "ICE agents arent trained!!!!!" "They aren't quallified!!!!" The left never emphasize something without having a some con or next story in the works to feed the narrative. That dumbass manipulated his Sig to fail in the exact same manner as the Wyoming Gun Project did on camera then went out and confronted federal agents so one would disarm him and then have a accidental discharge while other anti ICE antifa goons video'd. I don't believe he intended to get himself shot. I think he hoped an ICE agent might shoot himself during the AD. When they dump the history in his phone and on his PC I'm betting dollars to donuts he watched that Wyoming Gun Project video. I've read a lot of really, profoundly stupid fucking things around here over the years, but this is on another level. Accurate |
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Quoted: I'm sure it's no longer a crime scene now. Has there been any commentary about a bullet hole going directly down into the asphalt there yet? Pistol bullets don't drill holes into ice cold asphalt and certainly not concrete. Maybe on asphalt a small divot. |
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Quoted: No, it’s not a justification. But it adds to the totality of circumstances that would help a reasonable person decide if this was a crime by any of the officers, or rather a tragic sequence of events. Legal and justified aren’t necessarily the same thing. Quoted: Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I’m trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? No, it’s not a justification. But it adds to the totality of circumstances that would help a reasonable person decide if this was a crime by any of the officers, or rather a tragic sequence of events. Legal and justified aren’t necessarily the same thing. There's more evidence that needs to come out but just from reading the posts and watching the videos, I does appear the gun may have discharged and it appears that the agent's hand was around the gun, not in the trigger guard but there's no way to know what was happening on the opposite of the gun from the camera. I think it's impossible to tell from the poor quality video, but was what appears to be his hat on the ground (the black thing) kicked or moved by the other officer's shoe? Is there a hole in it or powder burns? At the time of the shooting there were multiple agents yelling gun, cars honking, whistles blowing and harpies screeching and the nurse did appear to reach for the area- which as at least one other person has said, there's a good chance I'd automatically attempt some form of retention if I thought my gun was being touched (not that I'd be there to start with or put myself in that situation with law enforcement). I know youtube and most others have various levels of compression, but it sounds like there is approximately one second elapsed from the initial bang to additional rounds fired. Have any of the Sig discharges been caused/replicated by pushing on the side of the frame near the trigger or pushing on the side of the trigger itself (i.e. a winter glove bumping it)? I'm asking, I don't know since I wouldn't own a 320 (I've turned down several for cheap) and haven't bothered to keep up with them or seen all of the previous or current videos. Complete conjecture at this point, but it seems like an unfortunate chain of events occurred leading to that totality of circumstances. Like most accidents, it could have been prevented at several different stages, in this particular incident starting with not thinking it's OK for rapists, murders and otherwise illegal individuals to be in the country or that you should white knight for those illegals, not going to a protest when you know things have been ramping up, not interfering with law enforcement performing their duties, etc. I'm sure at some point we'll get an official story; we may never know the whole story. Even if it should become clear that it was an accident brought about by the Sig design it won't matter one wit to most on the left, they will continue to utilize the story as fits their purposes. 
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Quoted: Pistol bullets don't drill holes into ice cold asphalt and certainly not concrete. Maybe on asphalt a small divot. Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure it's no longer a crime scene now. Has there been any commentary about a bullet hole going directly down into the asphalt there yet? Pistol bullets don't drill holes into ice cold asphalt and certainly not concrete. Maybe on asphalt a small divot. It's not concrete. A perpendicular round would certainly take at least a divot out. 
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Quoted: Quoting for the craziest take possible. Maybe stay off the Internet a while. Quoted: Quoted: I posted this in the SIG P320 video thread but this is probably the more appropriate place. If anybody has proposed this already I'm joining in. If it hasn't been proposed yet, I'm calling it now. . . . . This was a setup. Whatever the Wyoming Gun Project guy did to get the trigger to only partially engage, Alex Pretti did to his gun. Think about what the Demonrat talking point was for at least a week leading up to the Alex Pretti shooting. "ICE agents arent trained!!!!!" "They aren't quallified!!!!" The left never emphasize something without having a some con or next story in the works to feed the narrative. That dumbass manipulated his Sig to fail in the exact same manner as the Wyoming Gun Project did on camera then went out and confronted federal agents so one would disarm him and then have a accidental discharge while other anti ICE antifa goons video'd. I don't believe he intended to get himself shot. I think he hoped an ICE agent might shoot himself during the AD. When they dump the history in his phone and on his PC I'm betting dollars to donuts he watched that Wyoming Gun Project video. Yeah, that's wild! How would Pretti ensure that the 320 would not do an UD in his holster? |
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Quoted: Just saw reference to ICE accidental discharge so maybe the OP had it all along. I don't like striker-fired pistols without a manual safety. I reluctantly bought a Walther PPS M2 as potential carry gun, even though I have a distrust of striker-fired guns in general, because it looked like a solid unit and it was cheap. With all the 320 stuff in the air, I think the only way I'd carry it would be with an empty chamber, which defeats the purpose of a carry gun, so it's still new and unfired. I don't trust "cocked and locked" carry either or safeties that don't also safely drop the hammer. IMO, just too many things that could possibly go wrong with having to manually ease the hammer down while pulling the trigger. I have several de-cocker pistols and feel quite comfortable with them. Even my old S+W 1st Gen 9mm pistols will drop the hammer when the safety is engaged. |
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Quoted: There's more evidence that needs to come out but just from reading the posts and watching the videos, I does appear the gun may have discharged and it appears that the agent's hand was around the gun, not in the trigger guard but there's no way to know what was happening on the opposite of the gun from the camera. I think it's impossible to tell from the poor quality video, but was what appears to be his hat on the ground (the black thing) kicked or moved by the other officer's shoe? Is there a hole in it or powder burns? At the time of the shooting there were multiple agents yelling gun, cars honking, whistles blowing and harpies screeching and the nurse did appear to reach for the area- which as at least one other person has said, there's a good chance I'd automatically attempt some form of retention if I thought my gun was being touched (not that I'd be there to start with or put myself in that situation with law enforcement). I know youtube and most others have various levels of compression, but it sounds like there is approximately one second elapsed from the initial bang to additional rounds fired. Have any of the Sig discharges been caused/replicated by pushing on the side of the frame near the trigger or pushing on the side of the trigger itself (i.e. a winter glove bumping it)? I'm asking, I don't know since I wouldn't own a 320 (I've turned down several for cheap) and haven't bothered to keep up with them or seen all of the previous or current videos. Complete conjecture at this point, but it seems like an unfortunate chain of events occurred leading to that totality of circumstances. Like most accidents, it could have been prevented at several different stages, in this particular incident starting with not thinking it's OK for rapists, murders and otherwise illegal individuals to be in the country or that you should white knight for those illegals, not going to a protest when you know things have been ramping up, not interfering with law enforcement performing their duties, etc. I'm sure at some point we'll get an official story; we may never know the whole story. Even if it should become clear that it was an accident brought about by the Sig design it won't matter one wit to most on the left, they will continue to utilize the story as fits their purposes. And even relatively honest reporting Fox News continues to paint the story as this guy was just standing there, went to aid a woman that ICE had attacked for no reason, then was maced and "beaten" (they use that word in in every article about it), disarmed, then shot. |
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Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I'm trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? |
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Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I'm trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? the shooting of the suspect in that moment is the least controversial aspect of this if we find that the suspects gun was the first to discharge when the officer secured it. I'd be more surprised if they didn't shoot. if the suspects gun didn't AD, then we're down to officers not knowing the gun was secured and observing the suspect reaching for the holster area and concluding he was reaching for his pistol. option 3 is that they are out of control homicidal assholes. I haven't seen any evidence of that. |
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Quoted: And even relatively honest reporting Fox News continues to paint the story as this guy was just standing there, went to aid a woman that ICE had attacked for no reason, then was maced and "beaten" (they use that word in in every article about it), disarmed, then shot. Yes, and it's irritating to hear them blather like that. Instead of putting a "spin" on the story, it would seem that laying out the known facts and saying "the incident is being investigated" would be more honest. But, if they talked about what is actually known, they'd have to find something else to fill the time slot. Lots of stupid all around. Bovino, Noem and Miller embarassed and discredited themselves by spouting a bunch of stupid shit including Bovino, imputing Pretti's motive, "he came there to massacre the Feds". Then there's Trump and others demonizing legal carriers and high-capacity magazines. |
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I did see the Sig discharged as the agent walking away from the scuffle, hard to tell but his finger was close to the trigger so was it an ND or a 'Sigcident' but the first shot was discharged from this pistol. One agent in front of Pretti already drew his pistol before the discharge, moved around to the side and when the discharge occurred, fired at Pretti. As a Monday morning quarterback, yes it was a bad shoot IMO. Watching the video from multiple angles, would be hard to call this shoot a legit one. |
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Quoted: And even relatively honest reporting Fox News continues to paint the story as this guy was just standing there, went to aid a woman that ICE had attacked for no reason, then was maced and "beaten" (they use that word in in every article about it), disarmed, then shot. Technically it appears (again going on my limited info), that he did go to the woman's aid (who it appears was shoved out of the way for interfering, no idea if he knew that was or was just trying to help her up?) and he was "beaten" (you can see the guy on the left swinging at what looks like his head when they're wrestling on the ground); I don't recall if he was maced but I think he may have been, too lazy to watch again. It looks like they had him down on snow/ice and were trying to force compliance with an unwilling suspect, throwing punches is pretty normal behavior in any non-competition fight I've ever been in, especially when assisting the cops get someone restrained and more so with gloves on and heavy clothes. Unfortunately most cops don't know enough martial arts, far fewer practice it and even if you're good at it there are a lot of factors that can throw all that training right out the window. It seems to happen especially when you have a bunch of people and no clear leader saying "I got this". Clearly he was disarmed of the Sig, if he had a secondary weapon I haven't heard about it. I still think it was a legal/justified shoot given what I've seen and read- more info may come out- the cumulation of a bunch of factors lining up. Hard as I try I just can't wrap my head around liberal "logic" that makes them think that it's OK for illegals to stay in the country and worse, most of the ones ICE has been going after are horrible people. Yet liberals are willing to put themselves in harm's way for people who hate them, are literally stealing from them and many who would just as soon stick a knife in them and rape them or the women in their lives. You can read a bunch of material on cults, but even having dealt with tons of crazies over the years, this is different from normal crazy and watching the behavior play out is just makes no sense. |
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Quoted: We still don't know and it will be a while but it's leaning that way. If it does, imagine the shame that the GD "They murdered him!" amen choir will feel. Haha just kidding. They will feel no shame. I question what they were responding to, other than the sound of gunfire. Did they actually know the source of the shots, or were they scared by the sound of gunfire & just assumed it Pretti the shooter? The 1 agent shouting "Gun!" wasn't the smartest choice of words simply because it provided no context & likely led to the others, charged by emotion & adrenaline, fueled the assumption that it was Pretti. Announcing, "weapon recovered," or similar, more clarifying statement, might've resulted in a better outcome. |
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Quoted: No, however, depending on their level of training, or HOW they train, a gunshot breaking in the middle of that scrum could certainly have cascading effects. They already perceived Pretti to be a problem as he is simply in their way. Suddenly, they realize he's armed, then a shot breaks. Let's not forget they've been embattled every step of the way up there because neither the city of Minneapolis, nor the state of MN proper, have complied with federal law. This type of anarchy hasn't happened in cities and states that have cooperated with immigration officials. This noncompliance just gives the street-communists the green light to do their thing. Quoted: Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I'm trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? That's not exactly fearing for their lives. Not that guy, anyway. I imagine a lawyer is going to say that he was having the time of his life. |
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Quoted: One of the federal agents was jumping up and down, clapping, applauding ... as shots were being fired. That's not exactly fearing for their lives. Not that guy, anyway. I imagine a lawyer is going to say that he was having the time of his life. Do you have vid of that? |
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Quoted: One of the federal agents was jumping up and down, clapping, applauding ... as shots were being fired. That's not exactly fearing for their lives. Not that guy, anyway. I imagine a lawyer is going to say that he was having the time of his life. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wait, so the gun going off on its own justifies him being shot? I'm trying to keep up. Did it go off while nurse was holding it or while being disarmed? That's not exactly fearing for their lives. Not that guy, anyway. I imagine a lawyer is going to say that he was having the time of his life. And? These guys aren't robots all linked to a controller cluster. And they aren't space aliens with a shared hive-mind conscious. They're all humans, they were all working with partial information in sensory overload conditions in a rapidly changing situation, and they all saw and experienced different things in the same event. Half of them probably walked away not really sure what they did or did not see. Humans also react to things in weird ways in the heat of the moment. When a literal gun goes off, it changes everything. |
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Quoted: One of the federal agents was jumping up and down, clapping, applauding ... as shots were being fired. That's not exactly fearing for their lives. Not that guy, anyway. I imagine a lawyer is going to say that he was having the time of his life. Seriously? What is your motivation in posting something like that? You got a video of it, or is this all in your imagination? |
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Quoted: The wild thing is everybody handling a 320 is going to get a pass if it goes off. Your finger was on the trigger! No it wasn't. It's a 320. oh... Circumstances and supporting evidence will always matter. On the other hand, there's a path where carrying/issuing a P320 becomes an issue for liability and possibly negligence. |