Quoted: Quoted: We only need look at COlumbine to see how it woudl have been handled. We would still be acrting out dead childrens bodies, days later. Eventually, and with enough fo these kinds of things under our belt, I presume we will become proficent.  It is going to be a bad time until then. I get so tried about what happened at Columbine high school, why don't you walk through a large high school, one with close to 800 students and tell me how you would take it down. How many rooms are there to clear, wall lockers, locker rooms, electrical closets, the gym, the offices. How do you determine which kids are the ones with the guns, that was a very dynamic situation with no simple solutions. You can not just run into a building with kids inside, shooting away.

Still, it was over an hour before the cops went inside, and it is likely that one of the kids was shot by a SWAT team member. It should be noted that in response to Columbine most LE Agencies in the contry made it policy to enter the building as soon as three officers were on scene, instead of waiting for a full SWAT team.

Quoted: Quoted: It's just a question for discussion...relax! - Oh I'm relaxed.  I'm just tired of seeing the same old "waco" crap all time from people that have less than a clue as to what they are talking about.  You should see me when I really get fired up.

I want to hear how you know what you are talking about. Were you at Waco? If not, you don't know more than us.

Quoted: The terrs TBKMFTCBN had the whole building rigged with mines/explosives, and it sounds like one of them went off by accident, possibly setting off others.

Had to make a correction to the BGs.

My wife read on the Russian newspaper site some information that was released that they had gotten from the one TBKMFTCBN that was captured. He said that the explosions were started when two of the women TBKMFTCBN refused to kill children and their leader used a remote control to detonate the bomb vests that were locked on them as an example to the other TBKMFTCBN.

The newspaper article went on to say that the group did not know the target until they were just outside of Beslan. One of the TBKMFTCBN refused to go on after hearing what they were to do and was shot by the leaders.

When she gets home tonight, I'll get the link since her Russian is a lot better than mine and don't want to FUBAR another post like I did with the cross pix.

Originally posted by John_Wayne777 "What in the hell are we going to do if when this happens here???"

Sorry, but I had to correct that. IMHO, it is a matter of time before this happens here.

Originally written by hielo they put their manly bodies out there, draw the fire and the rest of the teams kill the shooter

This particular Spetsnaz unit was made up solely of officers. No enlisted ranks in it. Interesting concept.

wganz
¶

TBKMFTCBN = Terrorist Baby Killers That Cannot Be Named

It would not have been any different if it took place here or in England.

There are not enough coutner terror peple left stateside to handle a attack by 30 terrorists involving over a thousand hostages in a building that big.  And even if there were no one in the West trains for a attack involving this many suspects.  They may change the training and planning from now on but it still isn't going to  cause either Delta or NAVSPECWARGRU to grow- they have trouble finding and retianing people as is, and the SAS is in as bad a shape over there- nor is it going to change the percantage of each unit that is required right now for overseas deployments.

To get enough people to handle a similar situation in the US, especially if it happened OUSIDE one of the 4 major cities or DC, would require using parts of both NAVSPECWARGRU and Delta AND the FBI HRT.  Have they trained togeather?  Do they know how to break down responsibility? I don't think so.

And again unless it happened in LA, NY, CHI or DC there would not be enough LEOs to maintain the outer peremiter, one that had to be as large as this- where you had a large building AND terrorists with RPGs so the evacuation zone has to be 2km across.  You would have to call the National Guard, how long would they need to assemble, or you would have to fly in a Ranger or Marine battalion, how long would they need to move?


Alfa was actually doing what it was supposed to be doing when the bombs went off- at a near identical school 30km away rehersing a takedown, except for a small observation detachment.  The rushed to the scene in 30min and still got in enough fighting to lose four men.

ArmdLiberal, HRT, LAPD SWAT, USMS SOG, DEVGRU and some of the other counter terror units have trained together and still do on a regular basis. Many of them probably served together. While not ideal, with the improv skills these guys have, and a commander with a clear head writing up a good plan that everyone understands, the disadvantage would be less than one might think.

Quoted: ArmdLiberal, HRT, LAPD SWAT, USMS SOG, DEVGRU and some of the other counter terror units have trained together and still do on a regular basis. Many of them probably served together. While not ideal, with the improv skills these guys have, and a commander with a clear head writing up a good plan that everyone understands, the disadvantage would be less than one might think.

But this kind of situation, everything must go perfectly your way, or you get a result like this...

Quoted: Quoted: I don't think Columbine was that simple as you think, there was not much time to gather the proper intel on the situation and get a plan together and start taking down the building. So you go in searching the building for threat targets, you take one down they the other threat hears the gunfire, what if then in another room he decides to start shooting fellow students, how do you handle that. In that situation you need to collapse the building and get the threats in one area so that they are easier to neutralize. So, waiting it out and allowing the two kids to kill people at will until they got tired was a so much better tatical option.

Where is any of my posts did I state that, how do you know it was only two students doing all the shootings. It's simple because you know the outcome. They did not have a good idea of what was going on in the school, yes they knew that students were being shot and that was about all they knew.

How can you say that a blitz assault would have saved more people, you don't. You don't know what those two would have done if the police went in right away. You are second guessing things because you already understand what happened that day. What if they would have changed when the police came in and ran out with other students, what if the bomb they made in the lunch room would have went off right when the police went in, more students would have died.

It is so easy to nick pick what you see as what they should have done.......but you were not there and I know you guys would not have just sat around, you would have stopped it. Right with your tactics!

You guys rag on a guy that has a low post count like that means he can not make any sense....... but how many hear have done or have been trained on CQB or have done REAL room clearing, with live ammo, seems like alot since so many here seem to think it is so easy.

I know I have and I do not claim to be any expert, but if done wrong it can be just as bad if not worse then waiting for some time to make the best decision.

From what I have gathered it wouldnt have mattered what SMU was on the ground, Only the hand of God himself could have made it turn out better.  Improvised explosives going off unexpectedly would have caught anyone and everyone off guard.

No win situation....I know it's hard to imagine, but it still could have been worse.

I think the Russian soldiers showed a great deal of bravery.

What Beer Slayer said.  Especially the second line.

And Yeah we can bring in Seals, HRT, Delta Force in 20 minutes, even those already overseas.  They did the best they could, with what they could against a horrendous situation.  EMP yeah we keep EMP generators close at hand.

This is an exercise in the real world.  Shit happens, as somebody noted the best defense is keeping them out.

Quoted: Quoted: ArmdLiberal, HRT, LAPD SWAT, USMS SOG, DEVGRU and some of the other counter terror units have trained together and still do on a regular basis. Many of them probably served together. While not ideal, with the improv skills these guys have, and a commander with a clear head writing up a good plan that everyone understands, the disadvantage would be less than one might think. But this kind of situation, everything must go perfectly your way, or you get a result like this...

Still, in the US, the perimeter would have been tightly controlled. The skill at arms of the responding troops would be better too.

Quoted: The troops would have had better uniforms and equipment, that is all, the results would have been the same. Once the murderors had control of the school it was over, the Russain forces did a great job, there were survivors, that is not what the murderors planned.

+1
Seems like a lose lose situation either way--Heartbreaking

Quoted: More importantly How would the Fatbody Rapid Response Team from AR15.com handled it? They would have argued over what ammo, what sight, what length of barrel, what BDU, and which grip to use for the mission.

You forgot what flavor of pie to have later.....


One thing, though. Does EVERYONE in the Russian military use an AK? Don't their Anti-Terror forces use something along the lines of the MP5?

Quoted: Quoted: More importantly How would the Fatbody Rapid Response Team from AR15.com handled it? They would have argued over what ammo, what sight, what length of barrel, what BDU, and which grip to use for the mission. You forgot what flavor of pie to have later..... One thing, though. Does EVERYONE in the Russian military use an AK? Don't their Anti-Terror forces use something along the lines of the MP5?

They have .380 caliber AKs

1) The fact is that international terror groups do not do hostage/firearm attacks. They blow things up.

EVERY incedent like this, EVERY suicide bombing is allways undertaken by folks who grww up & live in the same area as the target... Sure, they may have 'help' from outside, but the idea, the C&C is allways local.

We do not have any domestic terror groups of import here... So you can bet quite safely this will never happen here.

Also, remember, these hostages were taken for the express intent of liberating Chechen prisoners. That is why this perticular target was picked: If anything's going to cause the govt to give in, it's to let your buddies go 'for the children'...

So, that in mind, once again, this is never going to happen here. Period.  While many of you think from the perspective of a domestic insurgent (eg 'If we were to fight the govt, what would you use') and naturally gravitate towards small arms & small charges, AQ is after maximum economic/political disruption, and they can do that a whole lot easier by blowing up 10 large buildings than by taking over one school... AQ can do ALOT more damage with 100+ Ts by deploying them in bomb attacks, why would they waste resources on a small arms assault? And if you think there were less than 100 BGs in there, you're a bit off... Regardless of what the Russians say...

1200+ hostages requires around 100 captors to control...

2) Our guys would have better communications and equipment (thermal vision, etc)... But any assault on a fortified position is going to be a mess, allways has been...

Think 'Operation Olympic', and remember WHY we never invaded Japan. Same principle....

3) The only thing you can do to 'help' the situation is to have good enough intel to catch 'em before they attack...

4) Were I responding to such an event, I would have used any neccicary force to ensure that the only armed folks around the building were under my command. No cell phones too (jam the frequencies, or get anyone who could call out of the area)...

You have no way to tell the diff betweren concerned parents and terrorist agents on the outside...

The rest is standard hostage rescue tactics, except you're going to need alot more than a SWAT team to take on 100bgs... National Guard infantry would be the best equipped single-unit in the immediate area, most likely. Local PDs or SOs aren't going to have the manpower....

International terrorists very well could try this, but on a smaller scale.

And how long does it take to get ahold of the local Guard Unit and get it mobilized and armed?  We used to have Mobilization Contact Drills with my Unit and from the time the CO or XO got called and the last Department Head reported all contacted averaged about 12 hours, and that ws just phone contact confirmation, not moving anybody to the Center, issuing arms, ammo, etc finding blueprints or diagrams, etc etc etc

I'm in an Amateur Radio Group that supports hospitals in my County, we get an initial call by beeper (assuming it isn't an incident that starts self activations) to at least 3 coordinators, they get on the air and phones and start mobilizing a response, and we all carry our response kits in our cars and about half the members are retirees. Our average first in is usually around a half an hour, the second about fifteen minutes later and the rest usually under an hour.  And we usually get an emergency response about once a month.  The best I've ever seen involved a commuter train wreck and a County Fire Task Force was on scene in 5 minutes.  I was at a hospital in less than 10.  What saved us was a very fortunate occurence, most of the North County Emergency gorganizations were getting ready to drill a hazardous material, multiple casualty incident at one of the muti-plexes and shopping area. The task force was staging  and was rolling about a half mile away.  Everybody else was staged when we suddenly shifted from a drill to the real thing, and it was still about 15 minutes before the IC was in place a perimeter established and initial triage underway.  About 5 miles from drill site to trainwreck.  So I've had relevant experience in getting things rolling and it takes a lot longer than you might think, and we are in a small area, think if it was a much larger rural area???