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Posted: 3/8/2021 2:59:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could be. And just because someone at the O6 level doesn't make flag certainly does not mean they are a bad leader. It's a numbers thing. But any even perceived bad mark will stop any O6 from flag. This guy may be a great leader but my guess instead is he will be a great and loyal progressive soldier for the dementia potus Both had excellent reputations as "Soldiers' Soldiers" combat Infantrymen. Both also had had the chutzpah to be right when "great generals" expected fawning yes men (MacArthur for my godfather, Westmoreland for my dad). Bad enough to stand your ground for the right thing, but it's unforgivable to do it and be right in front of the world when a "great general" is involved. Both were "selectively continued" past 30 years. My godfather served until 65 and then moved over to USAID in S. Vietnam. My dad retired at a then impossible 33 years and turned down another continuation. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 3:05:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colonels can stay to 30 years for full retirement regardless of the number of times a non-select to BG. This. People asserting otherwise and suggesting this is some race thing are being very arfy, but not showing any knowledge of how GO promotions work. Did everyone forget all the drama about McMaster when he finally got his first star? And the rules for passed over officer and lower level are waiverable by the service secretaries. People can stay in at whatever grade, regardless, if the service component wants to retain them. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 3:07:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: O6 is forced retired at 30. There may be an exception here or there like previous enlisted service Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Non mil guy here too, but sounds like they're put on a retirement track if they're close enough. I don't know if there is a sort of age thing going on, like captain by age 25 or 30, major by 35, etc. ETA: I suspect it's harsher for enlisted. Passed over enough times, you are forced out, I'm guessing. O6 is forced retired at 30. There may be an exception here or there like previous enlisted service NDAA 2019 allows the Army to authorize select officers to serve up to 40 years now. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 4:59:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did everyone forget all the drama about McMaster when he finally got his first star? That was kind of...different. McMaster was well and widely known as both a solid combat leader and reasonably intelligent guy. It was also well and widely known that his failure to select was punishment to Petraeus. McMaster was collateral damage, and it was also seen as unjust. At the time, I thought it was incredibly unjust, but I also had a far higher opinion of Petraeus and his coterie then than I do now. Now, personally, I think McMaster, like Petraeus, was quick to mistake his general intelligence and high level of education for COIN knowledge, Institutional Army knowledge (I have reason to think his time at ARCIC, for example, was less than successful) and my personal belief was that he, like Petraeus was quick to mistake his desires and personal beliefs for his commander's intent. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:00:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NDAA 2019 allows the Army to authorize select officers to serve up to 40 years now. Well, that's CERTAINLY what we need...  If anything the Army leadership from O-6 and above needs to be scoured thoroughly in my opinion. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:07:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was kind of...different. McMaster was well and widely known as both a solid combat leader and reasonably intelligent guy. It was also well and widely known that his failure to select was punishment to Petraeus. McMaster was collateral damage, and it was also seen as unjust. At the time, I thought it was incredibly unjust, but I also had a far higher opinion of Petraeus and his coterie then than I do now. Now, personally, I think McMaster, like Petraeus, was quick to mistake his general intelligence and high level of education for COIN knowledge, Institutional Army knowledge (I have reason to think his time at ARCIC, for example, was less than successful) and my personal belief was that he, like Petraeus was quick to mistake his desires and personal beliefs for his commander's intent. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Did everyone forget all the drama about McMaster when he finally got his first star? That was kind of...different. McMaster was well and widely known as both a solid combat leader and reasonably intelligent guy. It was also well and widely known that his failure to select was punishment to Petraeus. McMaster was collateral damage, and it was also seen as unjust. At the time, I thought it was incredibly unjust, but I also had a far higher opinion of Petraeus and his coterie then than I do now. Now, personally, I think McMaster, like Petraeus, was quick to mistake his general intelligence and high level of education for COIN knowledge, Institutional Army knowledge (I have reason to think his time at ARCIC, for example, was less than successful) and my personal belief was that he, like Petraeus was quick to mistake his desires and personal beliefs for his commander's intent. My point is the whole discussion around it never suggested he should have been ushered out of the Army before 30, just that he was not getting selected for a star. The idea that O-6s are sent on their way if they fail to get picked up for a GO slot is simply absurd. Of course the services can and do force people to retire with separation boards, if they need to bring numbers down. But there's no "up or out" policy at O-6. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:09:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, that's CERTAINLY what we need... If anything the Army leadership from O-6 and above needs to be scoured thoroughly in my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: NDAA 2019 allows the Army to authorize select officers to serve up to 40 years now. Well, that's CERTAINLY what we need... If anything the Army leadership from O-6 and above needs to be scoured thoroughly in my opinion. Some fields got horribly gutted with the separation boards 6 years ago, and still haven't recovered. You can't grow capability overnight. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:16:34 PM EDT
[#8]
He will take orders from the Biden regime without question. That is why he was promoted.
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:17:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some fields got horribly gutted with the separation boards 6 years ago, and still haven't recovered. You can't grow capability overnight. In 2010, I told the Army they should prepare for a 7 division Army future. At the time, the reaction was that the core of ground combat power was in the BCT and they were no smaller than they could be and be mobile and effective. It was a reasonable argument, and one failed to understand what the non-maneuver parts of the Army do to place the maneuverist into position for the win. Maneuver centric visions caused this problem. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:17:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He will take orders from the Biden regime without question. That is why he was promoted. What are you basing this on? |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 5:21:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Used to be a Marine is a Marine
It did not matter if that Marine was White, Black,Yellow,Brown.....etc .... Sad promotions are NOT going to the most Qualified. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 9:18:20 PM EDT
[#12]
2x and out
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:50:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2x and out |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:54:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of Officers fail to promote on Active Duty. Get out, remain in the reserves, and get promoted. He was AD the whole time. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:58:12 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I personally know of an Air Force O5 who was passed over three times, then made O6. White as the pure driven snow. Just a good guy who did great work, and didn't have the right guardian angel until right up against his retirement date. Working directly for a 2-star can bring back any career, apparently. ETA: Then, once you make the next rank, it resets all the counters (time in grade, etc.) So I could see it. BTW, I think you know who I'm talking about, I think he was at the same base we were at, same time. @Limaxray Pretty sure I do. Every once in a while the right dudes make it through. Not something I’m super familiar with, I’m right in the meaty part of the curve  Good to see you, boss 
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Posted: 3/9/2021 5:34:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not Colonels. Everyone who retires as an O-6 with 30 years is essentially passed over for O-7 from the time they have enough time in grade to be in zone for O-7, until they retire. So, could be up to 3 or 4 passes. Which, as others have stated, happens to 99% of O-6s since the selection rate for BGen is like 1%. The allegation that the NYT tried to make in the original article, that Col Henderson was being deliberately targeted for being passed over, is completely ill-informed and disingenuous. He, along with 99% of the in-zone O-6 population, were being passed over, as is the normal case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 2x and out And the allegations being made here, that the man has received some sort of special dispensation from normal policy because he was black, are completely ill-i formed as well. Everyone has their narrative they want to advance, and facts or reality rarely get in the way. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 5:39:46 PM EDT
[#17]
I knew an Army officer ( aviation brach and was enlisted SF) who was passed over 3 times for major ( due to a GOMOR in his file) who appealed it and won and his promotion number was something like 457.5. Yes a decimal point. He got his 0-4 and was later court martial and ended up in Leavenworth. That was a strange case.
Edit to add: 3 looks below the zone, primary zone, above the zone. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 5:40:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But Maverick is still a captain That’s the joke |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 5:45:14 PM EDT
[#19]
We SECDEF now
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Posted: 3/9/2021 7:39:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Colonel Henderson was my Battalion XO when I was with 3rd Battalion 7th Marines 2002-2004 and also the ground monitor in 2000 @ Quantico.
As the monitor he was funny as hell, he came in bigger than life into the Infantry Officers Class and addressed us, "IOC, the school for men..." He concluded with, "Now I'm going to go home, jump my wife and eat some "poke" chops..." He was funny as hell. As the Battalion XO he could chew ass as a profession, everybody heard it from a grid square away. You didn't want to screw up as one of the battalion commodities. I remember I narrowly missed one of his commodity meetings where all the support players would gather, "I WILL BURN YOU!!! I WILL FUCKING BURN YOU!!!" He's a smart articulate guy. Not a knuckle dragger. He was a law contract (has a law degree) at the Basic School and asked to change it to ground and became an Infantry Officer. He had a subscription to "Proceedings" magazine like all good Naval Officers which Marines are related. His calm version was like Mobeus from Matrix. His angry version was like something else. He kept a chess board in his office and he challenged me to a quick one and had a short talk. He was not one of the "those" kind of officers. I went to war with him, he's good to go. Just don't screw up. The pyramid from O-6 to O-7 is very narrow, it's not that anyone is any less but who has more? Like a Masters degree or above, better fitrep scores, better career progression, etc. At that level it can come down to two men. Flip a coin, they're both excellent warriors one has to be the winner. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 7:42:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: After the second time you were passed over you either resigned or retired cause you were done. I guess there is always that one special case, 3rd times a charm for this colonel. Two up and out. That is what I observed, but I have been retired on disability for about 10 years now. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 7:55:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two up and out. That is what I observed, but I have been retired on disability for about 10 years now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: After the second time you were passed over you either resigned or retired cause you were done. I guess there is always that one special case, 3rd times a charm for this colonel. Two up and out. That is what I observed, but I have been retired on disability for about 10 years now. Doesn't really apply after Major. You can be selectively continued to retirement (and beyond, high-year tenure for USAF O5s is 28 years, ask me how I know ), but you still meet the board every year. So, if your situation changes (like the guy I know), you can get picked up on one of those later boards. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 7:59:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Limaxray Pretty sure I do. Every once in a while the right dudes make it through. Not something I’m super familiar with, I’m right in the meaty part of the curve Good to see you, boss Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I personally know of an Air Force O5 who was passed over three times, then made O6. White as the pure driven snow. Just a good guy who did great work, and didn't have the right guardian angel until right up against his retirement date. Working directly for a 2-star can bring back any career, apparently. ETA: Then, once you make the next rank, it resets all the counters (time in grade, etc.) So I could see it. BTW, I think you know who I'm talking about, I think he was at the same base we were at, same time. @Limaxray Pretty sure I do. Every once in a while the right dudes make it through. Not something I’m super familiar with, I’m right in the meaty part of the curve Good to see you, boss @springermania Good to see you too.  And yes, in that case the system (surprisingly) worked as advertised, in the sense a good officer got what he deserved, and at the same time the Air Force got what it needed...just waaaaay above the zone. I remember there was a big Buzz about it. 
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Posted: 3/9/2021 7:59:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colonel Henderson was my Battalion XO when I was with 3rd Battalion 7th Marines 2002-2004 and also the ground monitor in 2000 @ Quantico. As the monitor he was funny as hell, he came in bigger than life into the Infantry Officers Class and addressed us, "IOC, the school for men..." He concluded with, "Now I'm going to go home, jump my wife and eat some "poke" chops..." He was funny as hell. As the Battalion XO he could chew as ass as a profession, everybody heard it from a grid square away. You didn't to screw up at one of the battalion commodities. I remember I narrowly missed one of his commodity meetings where all the support players would gather, "I WILL BURN YOU!!! I WILL FUCKING BURN YOU!!!" He's a smart articulate guy. Not a knuckle dragger. He was a law contract (has a law degree) at the Basic School and asked to change it to ground and became an Infantry Officer. He had a subscription to "Proceedings" magazine like all good Naval Officers which Marines are related. His calm version was like Mobeus from Matrix. His angry version was like something else. He kept a chess board in his office and he challenged me to a quick one and had a short talk. He was not one of the "those" kind of officers. I went to war with him, he's good to go. Just don't screw up. The pyramid from O-6 to O-7 is very narrow, it's not that anyone is any less but who has more? Like a Masters degree or above, better fitrep scores, better career progression, etc. At that level it can come down to two men. Flip a coin, they're both excellent warriors one has to be the winner. Your personal knowledge of the man will not change the minds already made up. Yet it's always the other guy whose racist. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:03:04 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm sure it depends. I know plenty of O6 captains that are physicians, and have been for years. In theory they should be in zone or beyond zone.
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:09:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Army is passed over twice and you’re done. Technically you get three boards but the first is below the zone and you don’t expect to get picked up, so it’s not really getting passed over.
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:19:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colonel Henderson was my Battalion XO when I was with 3rd Battalion 7th Marines 2002-2004 and also the ground monitor in 2000 @ Quantico. As the monitor he was funny as hell, he came in bigger than life into the Infantry Officers Class and addressed us, "IOC, the school for men..." He concluded with, "Now I'm going to go home, jump my wife and eat some "poke" chops..." He was funny as hell. As the Battalion XO he could chew ass as a profession, everybody heard it from a grid square away. You didn't want to screw up at one of the battalion commodities. I remember I narrowly missed one of his commodity meetings where all the support players would gather, "I WILL BURN YOU!!! I WILL FUCKING BURN YOU!!!" He's a smart articulate guy. Not a knuckle dragger. He was a law contract (has a law degree) at the Basic School and asked to change it to ground and became an Infantry Officer. He had a subscription to "Proceedings" magazine like all good Naval Officers which Marines are related. His calm version was like Mobeus from Matrix. His angry version was like something else. He kept a chess board in his office and he challenged me to a quick one and had a short talk. He was not one of the "those" kind of officers. I went to war with him, he's good to go. Just don't screw up. The pyramid from O-6 to O-7 is very narrow, it's not that anyone is any less but who has more? Like a Masters degree or above, better fitrep scores, better career progression, etc. At that level it can come down to two men. Flip a coin, they're both excellent warriors one has to be the winner. Nice. This is good insight. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:46:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He was a law contract (has a law degree) at the Basic School and asked to change it to ground and became an Infantry Officer. EDIT: I found the answer. I’m assuming he did the program where you go to OCS and commission as a reserve, go to law school, then do TBS after. I was trying to figure out his timeline as a FLEP, which did not make any sense. So he had to pay for the law degree himself, then didn’t use it. Kinda sucks for him. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:50:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not Colonels. Everyone who retires as an O-6 with 30 years is essentially passed over for O-7 from the time they have enough time in grade to be in zone for O-7, until they retire. So, could be up to 3 or 4 passes. Which, as others have stated, happens to 99% of O-6s since the selection rate for BGen is like 1%. The allegation that the NYT tried to make in the original article, that Col Henderson was being deliberately targeted for being passed over, is completely ill-informed and disingenuous. He, along with 99% of the in-zone O-6 population, were being passed over, as is the normal case. Bingo for O-6's and as others point out, selective continuation is not uncommon especially in certain career fields. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 8:51:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Buddy of mine said when he joined, faggotry was forbidden.
Sometime near the end of his tour, it became optional. He says he’s glad he got out before it became mandatory. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 9:52:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So question from someone with no military background. It sounds like if you are passed over for promotion a few times that you are forced out of the military. So if you have 12 years in and want to make a career out of it, you get shown the door if you do not advance? What if you are good at your current job? Just curious because that seems like it could suck bad if you were close to retiring and got fired with no pension or benefits. This is exactly right. The main promotion point is from captain to major. In the USAF, the promotion rate was less than 50 percent in my day. If you were passed over the first time, you chances on the second board were close to zero. It's an up or out system that gets rid of a lot of good people... |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:27:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:34:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please explain for the non mil. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. Active duty retirement 20 year retirement is 2.5% per year (minus 1%per year less than 30) so at 20 you get 50ish % of your base pay. So you are working for 1/2 price |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:36:56 PM EDT
[#34]
And here I am just wanting to get my tanks and fight commies.
Can we go back to an apolitical officer corps? (If such a thing ever existed) |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:07:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Active duty retirement 20 year retirement is 2.5% per year (minus 1%per year less than 30) so at 20 you get 50ish % of your base pay. So you are working for 1/2 price Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In my case its been 5 times passed over. Been non-selected more times than I've been promoted. In the AF they have something called "selective continuation". Basically I wasn't selected for promotion but selected to stay in to retire. There also was an option to stay in to 24 years, which I declined. Any second active duty past 20 you're working for half pay. I was taught this early in my career. Ended up doing 21 just cause thats the way the clock worked. Active duty retirement 20 year retirement is 2.5% per year (minus 1%per year less than 30) so at 20 you get 50ish % of your base pay. So you are working for 1/2 price And the retirement pay under that system started as soon as you retired, no waiting until 65 (in fact, technically, it's a retainer until age 65, or older under some conditions). Which is why staying in once you know you aren't likely to pick up the next rank is working for half pay. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 11:34:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @springermania Good to see you too. And yes, in that case the system (surprisingly) worked as advertised, in the sense a good officer got what he deserved, and at the same time the Air Force got what it needed...just waaaaay above the zone. I remember there was a big Buzz about it. @limaxray  Attached File |
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